Would 40k be better as a 10mm or 15mm game?

[StingrayP226]

Ok we all like the details and oooo and aaaaa sizes of the 28mm Heroic scale. HOWEVER I feel this is a part of the pricing problem of 40k as you have to buy a lot of 28mm troops and some very big monsters/tanks. Another thought going into this is the fact you need a rather large army in 40k, and when you put two of these armies on a table.... there isn't as much table left on your normal 4x6 tables (unless small armies with a few very expensive models are played).

It is nice to have the ability to pick out every soldier and individualize them (here is bob, here is rick, here is sarah, and here is Briiizzzzk) however with many armies having large squads of troops these individuals get lost in the crowd. Also there seems to be a trend where GW keeps making bigger and bigger and BIGGER models to dominate the field. However they are limited by A: cost of said models, and now B: table space.

Table space is a factor, with lots of larger models there is less room for moving/deploying. Its hard to flank or pincer when your armies cover almost your entire side of the field of battle. This reduces tactical options as the game has to be designed for a standard 6x8 table.

So in theory do you think 40k would be a better game if it was 10mm or 15mm as its not a skirmish game like MOST 28mm games? Or does the 28mm really help keep 40k in its own field by itself setting it apart from other games in a positive way?

[Nefarius Drapesh]

You mean GW should revive Epic 40.000, as such a game/scale already existed... ;)

[Cutter]

Ok we all like the details and oooo and aaaaa sizes of the 28mm Heroic scale. HOWEVER I feel this is a part of the pricing problem of 40k as you have to buy a lot of 28mm troops and some very big monsters/tanks. Another thought going into this is the fact you need a rather large army in 40k, and when you put two of these armies on a table.... there isn't as much table left on your normal 4x6 tables (unless small armies with a few very expensive models are played).

It is nice to have the ability to pick out every soldier and individualize them (here is bob, here is rick, here is sarah, and here is Briiizzzzk) however with many armies having large squads of troops these individuals get lost in the crowd. Also there seems to be a trend where GW keeps making bigger and bigger and BIGGER models to dominate the field. However they are limited by A: cost of said models, and now B: table space.

Table space is a factor, with lots of larger models there is less room for moving/deploying. Its hard to flank or pincer when your armies cover almost your entire side of the field of battle. This reduces tactical options as the game has to be designed for a standard 6x8 table.

So in theory do you think 40k would be a better game if it was 10mm or 15mm as its not a skirmish game like MOST 28mm games? Or does the 28mm really help keep 40k in its own field by itself setting it apart from other games in a positive way?

The games we play tend to be relatively compact 4'x4' or 4'x6' affairs, with plenty of room for Bob, Rick, Sarah and Briiizzzzk. If we want to play something 'bigger' (in a smaller kind of way) we play Flames of War.

I would have no objection if GW wanted to produce a accompanying 10 or 15 mil game, however I wouldn't be replicating my armies in that scale.

If they went radio rental and shifted scale wholesale, we'd probably just keep playing regular 40k.

[Mr Mystery]

No.

No no no no no no no no with a side order no, grated no to top, with a no flavoured noshake to wash it all down with.

[Cutter]

No.

No no no no no no no no with a side order no, grated no to top, with a no flavoured noshake to wash it all down with.

And of course with the miracle of modern CAD it's just a keystroke away, always waiting.

Be afraids.

[Mr Mystery]

Ok we all like the details and oooo and aaaaa sizes of the 28mm Heroic scale. HOWEVER I feel this is a part of the pricing problem of 40k as you have to buy a lot of 28mm troops and some very big monsters/tanks. Another thought going into this is the fact you need a rather large army in 40k, and when you put two of these armies on a table.... there isn't as much table left on your normal 4x6 tables (unless small armies with a few very expensive models are played).

It is nice to have the ability to pick out every soldier and individualize them (here is bob, here is rick, here is sarah, and here is Briiizzzzk) however with many armies having large squads of troops these individuals get lost in the crowd. Also there seems to be a trend where GW keeps making bigger and bigger and BIGGER models to dominate the field. However they are limited by A: cost of said models, and now B: table space.

Table space is a factor, with lots of larger models there is less room for moving/deploying. Its hard to flank or pincer when your armies cover almost your entire side of the field of battle. This reduces tactical options as the game has to be designed for a standard 6x8 table.

So in theory do you think 40k would be a better game if it was 10mm or 15mm as its not a skirmish game like MOST 28mm games? Or does the 28mm really help keep 40k in its own field by itself setting it apart from other games in a positive way?

And more constructive response :p

No. GW don't just make rules and games. They make models. And for the most part, the nicest wargaming models you're ever likely to find. Good mix of detail and design, with the rugged practicality needed to survive a game aimed at those from 12 upwards.

The big stuff is also far from compulsory. All infantry armies remain really difficult to tackle for the most part. Look at the IG Blobsquad o'doom. Sure the Guardsmen are simple enough to kill - a mean look and a vicious tut in their direction should see them shuffle off this mortal coil. But squads of 50 carry a lot of dakka, and can absorb casualties like nobodies business.

Also, game is designed for a 6x4 table, not 6x8. If people are playing on a 6x8, probably explains why they think assault is cack and Tau dominate everything :p

[Cutter]

And more constructive response :p

No. GW don't just make rules and games. They make models. And for the most part, the nicest wargaming models you're ever likely to find. Good mix of detail and design, with the rugged practicality needed to survive a game aimed at those from 12 upwards.

The big stuff is also far from compulsory. All infantry armies remain really difficult to tackle for the most part. Look at the IG Blobsquad o'doom. Sure the Guardsmen are simple enough to kill - a mean look and a vicious tut in their direction should see them shuffle off this mortal coil. But squads of 50 carry a lot of dakka, and can absorb casualties like nobodies business.

Also, game is designed for a 6x4 table, not 6x8. If people are playing on a 6x8, probably explains why they think assault is cack and Tau dominate everything :p

I largely agree with your sentiments but I think GW are trying to push the game bigger, for straightforward and perfectly understandable commercial reasons, that don't always work for the 'normal' table.

[Path Walker]

Models first, then rules, if you think the game is too packed, use fewer models!

[Cutter]

Models first, then rules, if you think the game is too packed, use fewer models!

Unless you're Orks...

or 'nids...

or Guard...

or

hmm.

;)

[StingrayP226]

First off I am in no way suggesting GW change the scale of the game... I have just been thinking about the whole cost of 40k and why its much more than other games, but when you look at models for the most part... for what you get (pewter/resin/plastic wise) your roughly paying the same as every other miniature company out there. Thing is other army based war games tend to be more 15mm to 10mm while 28mm Heroic is reserved for Skirmish games for the most part. So 10mm/15mm you get more army for less money (because they are smaller), or 28mm Skirmish you pay around the same but need only a handful of troops and rarely vehicles.

GW could NEVER make 40k a different scale unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot.... more than they already do.

[Houghten]

You mean GW should revive Epic 40.000, as such a game/scale already existed... ;)

Epic was 6mm, not 10mm or 15mm.

[40kGamer]

Epic was 6mm, not 10mm or 15mm.

And it is still GLORIOUS! :p

Warmaster is the handy 10mm scale and looks and plays great.

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, um... that's what Epic scale was. It's where all these super-heavies came from. They murdered it with fire when they changed to Epic 40,000 and went from having companies with detachments and all to being groups of random stuff thrown together like a bunch of 40K armies all globbed together. I'd love to have Epic back, I think it would be a lot better for massive scale battles, as you could run a nice game of Epic in 3-4 hours rather than a weekend-long (at least) Apoc match. I love me some Apoc, and I enjoy my super-heavies, but I would still love to also have back the ability to have battles where multiple Titans are stalking each other around a city center.

[Cutter]

Yeah, um... that's what Epic scale was. It's where all these super-heavies came from. They murdered it with fire when they changed to Epic 40,000 and went from having companies with detachments and all to being groups of random stuff thrown together like a bunch of 40K armies all globbed together. I'd love to have Epic back, I think it would be a lot better for massive scale battles, as you could run a nice game of Epic in 3-4 hours rather than a weekend-long (at least) Apoc match. I love me some Apoc, and I enjoy my super-heavies, but I would still love to also have back the ability to have battles where multiple Titans are stalking each other around a city center.

I think I enjoyed Adeptus Titanicus the most.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah, um... that's what Epic scale was. It's where all these super-heavies came from. They murdered it with fire when they changed to Epic 40,000 and went from having companies with detachments and all to being groups of random stuff thrown together like a bunch of 40K armies all globbed together. I'd love to have Epic back, I think it would be a lot better for massive scale battles, as you could run a nice game of Epic in 3-4 hours rather than a weekend-long (at least) Apoc match. I love me some Apoc, and I enjoy my super-heavies, but I would still love to also have back the ability to have battles where multiple Titans are stalking each other around a city center.

Worth giving Epic Armageddon a bash.

It took the simplified play style of Epic 40,000 (which I agree went too far with silly firepower charts, later used to better effect and indeed sense in BFG), but married it up with the more unit specific feel of Space Marine (so for instance, you bought by set formation which mixed certain units, but each unit had their own weapon load out. Each weapon had AT and AP - AT was your target roll to damage Vehicles, and AP your target roll to damage Infantry).

[40kGamer]

I think I enjoyed Adeptus Titanicus the most.

The only version where Titans were close to how they should play.

- - - Updated - - -


Worth giving Epic Armageddon a bash.

It took the simplified play style of Epic 40,000 (which I agree went too far with silly firepower charts, later used to better effect and indeed sense in BFG), but married it up with the more unit specific feel of Space Marine (so for instance, you bought by set formation which mixed certain units, but each unit had their own weapon load out. Each weapon had AT and AP - AT was your target roll to damage Vehicles, and AP your target roll to damage Infantry).

The only downsides I found with Armageddon is the lack of coverage for several races and the 'force org' methodology. Otherwise it was a huge improvement over the Epic 40k system. Epic 40k wasn't a bad system, just a bad idea... you can't change a game system that completely without the risk of losing the player base.

[Charistoph]

As it currently stands, no, it would not do better at such a level. To much depends on individual infantry models contributing to the fight, while games like Planetfall and Dropzone Commander generalize too much (and have to) with their infantry and only the vehicles (and Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures for 40K) are allowed to be uniquely configured.

Take Planetfall, the whole squad is upgraded to a specific type, and not just one individual. They either are all gun heavy or none of them are. In a way, 30K would translate better than 40K would.

[Gotthammer]

In a way, 30K would translate better than 40K would.

Interesting you say that as the 1st editions of Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine were set during and just after the Heresy, so obviously GW thought the same way :p

[Charistoph]

Interesting you say that as the 1st editions of Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine were set during and just after the Heresy, so obviously GW thought the same way :p

Well, most of the 30K Infantry units (not all, I know) are all equipped with the same weapon, while in 40K, the unit is just as likely to have one to three weapons completely different from the rest. Those can be a little difficult to parse out in a 15 or 10mm game where the whole infantry unit is all on one base.

There would be ways to make it work, of course, but then you wouldn't be playing the current 40K while doing it, either.

[Mr Mystery]

The only downsides I found with Armageddon is the lack of coverage for several races and the 'force org' methodology. Otherwise it was a huge improvement over the Epic 40k system. Epic 40k wasn't a bad system, just a bad idea... you can't change a game system that completely without the risk of losing the player base.

The streamlining of Epic 40,000 and 3rd Ed 40k, is akin to taking someone like me (overly indulgent when it comes to food) and having tu'penny ha'penny quack 'Doctor' Gillian McKeith forcefeed me nothing but raw Mung Beans in an effort to slim me down.

Epic Armageddon, and 6th Ed 40k onwards has more been the 'hey, you need to lose weight, but not taste. Why not have a grilled chicken breast with a low fat sauced instead of that KFC Bargain Bucket' approach.

[Erik Setzer]

Interesting you say that as the 1st editions of Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine were set during and just after the Heresy, so obviously GW thought the same way :p

Yeah, that's what really drew me into the 40K universe, ironically. I loved sitting and reading the stories of Marine-vs-Marine and Titan-vs-Titan. There was a piece of artwork, I think it was a two-page spread, that had Marines fighting each other around some buildings, with Titans stalking the streets, and one of the columns on a building had a bunch of Marines strapped to it. Sadly, I can't seem to find that image online, and I'm not sure I have the book(s) still (salvaged what I could post-fire, but a lot of the books were in a location that wasn't safe). One more thing to look for whenever I manage to make it over to the used book warehouse across town.

Ah, back when Titans were such badasses, like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/azazal/Warlord%20Stuff/img019.jpg

[Fomorian]

Oh God damn yes! Please revive Epic 40k for us! I loved this Game and i think 15 mm is the perfect scale for big sci-fi 40k Battles. It fits much more together with the lore and big battles, instead of a skirmish playing style with 28 mm.

I would definately come back to 40k if they would bring a 40k tabletop game with 15 mm. Also Warhammer Fantasy would be awesome in this scale. It just reminds me of the old Warmaster times!

Hopefully we will see something like that in the future again!

[Wolf of Winter]

Oh God damn yes! Please revive Epic 40k for us! I loved this Game and i think 15 mm is the perfect scale for big sci-fi 40k Battles. It fits much more together with the lore and big battles, instead of a skirmish playing style with 28 mm.

I would definately come back to 40k if they would bring a 40k tabletop game with 15 mm. Also Warhammer Fantasy would be awesome in this scale. It just reminds me of the old Warmaster times!

Hopefully we will see something like that in the future again!

I concur. I'd come back to the fold as well. With what I have seen in the way of 15mm kits for Flames of War, and the load outs for specific infantry, there is no reason why they couldn't do 40K or HH at that scale. I'd love to run some titans, but wouldn't want to remortgage the house to buy a bunch of the FW 28mm scale ones :p

Image the Istvaan III campaign you could do... it'd look incredible!

[40kGamer]

I've been really turned off with GW folding everything Epic into mainstream 40k. Skirmish and mass combat systems do not mesh well at all.

[FUZNAZ]

To solve table space issues, play at lower pts. I rarely play at over a thousand. At this level a 4x4 table has been fine.

[Alan Braggins]

Personally I'd like to see the 28mm game as a skirmish game, few vehicles, no flyers/superheavies/titans/knights/gargants except as scenery, and either revised Epic or possibly 10mm for large scale battles.

[Auticus]

I'm fine with big models on the table. The only thing I'd ask is that it be limited some how. 25% lord of war would keep giant titans out of small points games which I think is the biggest issue I have with the current system.

I'm also not really a fan of pure skirmish games. The market is already flooded with them. I like the scale where it is today.