Comparing 40K Tactical Terminators to 30K Tyrant Siege Cataphractii

[YorkNecromancer]

So the Internets says that Tactical Terminators are No Damn Good at the moment. Which, you know, pretty much fair enough. 2+ isn't really enough to make them work.

In HH book 3, the Iron Warriors get Tyrant Siege Terminator Squads.

These things are god*amned bananas. They have Wrecker as an inherent rule, and all of them have Cyclone Missile Launchers by default (yes, every single model has them) and can fire them AND their combi-bolters in the same Shooting phase. They can't overwatch since they wear Cataphractii armour, but that's pretty much their only limitation. And all this for +33% of standard Tactical Terminators.

Now, here's the thing:

If that unit was the 'standard' Tactical Terminator unit of the Astartes, would they become viable again?

Thoughts?

[Bob821]

Sounds good to me. I've not used Terminators apart from THSS equipped units since 5th addition.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I could get behind giving them some variant of Sternguard ammo. Make their Storm Bolters scary.

[Dave Mcturk]

I could get behind giving them some variant of Sternguard ammo. Make their Storm Bolters scary.

that sounds like a good idea. weve been trialling giving them two wounds against all shooting, except if nurgled

[Chris*ta]

It does seem a bit odd that veteran marines can wear power armour and have Sternguard ammo, or wear Terminator armour and have regular ammo.

For that matter, I'd like to see the sergeant with a Relic Blade rather than a Power Sword. It makes no sense he can have a Relic Blade wearing Power Armour but not Terminator Armour, especially because the Power Sword is pretty much a downgrade over the standard TA Power Fist. I'd love to see the reaction of a newly-promoted Sergeant when he finds out he's got to hand in his Power Fist ...

[modelguyicmt]

As normal Terminator Squad with the following additions-

Sergeant may take items from the Terminator Weapons list, and may additionally replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade for +10. May replace Storm Bolter with a Plasma Pistol or Grav Pistol +10.

One additional model out of every five may replace his Storm Bolter with any Combi-Bolter +5, including a Combi-Bolter with Astartes Auxiliary Grenade Launcher +15, which has the following attack- Hellfire Grenade- RNG-24" S-1 AP-4 Assault 1, Blast, Poisoned 2+, One Use Per Game.

The entire unit may upgrade their Bolters to carry Special Issue Ammunition, for +5 points per model with a Bolt weapon.

Any model may exchange its Power Fist for a Power Sword for a 10 point reduction in cost.

A Heavy Flamer may be exchanged for a Multi Melta or Twin Linked Flamer for free, a Twin Linked Melta for +5, or a Twin Linked Plasmagun for +10.

Crux Terminatus- Terminators have a 5+ Invulnerable Save and additionally have Toughness 5 against all attacks that do not cause Instant Death against their normal Toughness of 4. This applies for all models in Terminator Armour.

____

How's that? Increase by +5 for the new Toughness? 45 points base, 50 for Special Ammo, 40 if you take off the Power Fists. Nurgle Termies are 37 points without Special Ammo and without the I.D clause for Toughness. They also get Power Fists for only 7 points, but they also have access to infinite Lightning Claws and Combi Weapons.

On second thought, the Toughness increase is too much, all Termies in the game would need to be revamped, and Nurgle Termies would be left out in the cold.

[Chris*ta]

Sergeant may take items from the Terminator Weapons list, and may additionally replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade for +10. May replace Storm Bolter with a Plasma Pistol or Grav Pistol +10.

I don't think Terminators should have access to pistols -- it would give them an extra attack in H-to-H, and it's something the designers are (relatively) conscientious in avoiding.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I agree that pistols should be avoided, and for the additional heavy weapons, why not just use the examples given by FW? Multi-melta and plasma blaster (R18", S7 AP2 assault 2 IIRC) in addition to the heavy flamer, cyclone missile launcher and assault cannon. I feel like having twin-flamers feels redundant when there is a heavy flamer. The option to switch out any stormbolter for a combi-weapon would be good though, along with the option to upgrade to a relic blade for the Sergeant. Full access to special issue ammo doesn't feel quite right, as some ammunition types just feel like asking for disaster with a stormbolter (vengeance rounds for example) so maybe just the option to purchase hellfire rounds for the squad is enough.

When thinking about it, instead of having the flexibility of sternguard, maybe terminators would have to choose one ammunition type at the beginning of the game for the squad (can change between games) to represent the difficulty of changing magazines in terminator armour and the large magazine size of a stormbolter. (still no vengeance rounds though, spraying a round that is likely to blow up in the weapon from a twin-barrelled SMG designed for rate of fire just seems stupid).

[Katharon]

You're also forgetting that Cataphractii Terminator armour has a better invulnerable save and they are armed with combi-bolters, not storm bolters, which makes them twin-linked.

[Mr Mystery]

Still not sure why people don't rate tactical Terminators.

They're a pretty flexible and resilient squad, capable tackling all but the hardest of targets.

They've got the Dakka to thin out infantry, and Powerfists on everyone is very welcome. Add in a Cyclone or Assault Cannon and they improve still.

Anything that can take them out still has it's work cut out. In HTH, single botched roll and those Powerfists will be deep up your chuff before you can blink. Shooting? That's a lot of dedicated anti-tank which may have better targets elsewhere.

They're a useful gap filler unit for the army because of the above.

Am I missing something here?

[Dave Mcturk]

Still not sure why people don't rate tactical Terminators.

They're a pretty flexible and resilient squad, capable tackling all but the hardest of targets.

They've got the Dakka to thin out infantry, and Powerfists on everyone is very welcome. Add in a Cyclone or Assault Cannon and they improve still.

Anything that can take them out still has it's work cut out. In HTH, single botched roll and those Powerfists will be deep up your chuff before you can blink. Shooting? That's a lot of dedicated anti-tank which may have better targets elsewhere.

They're a useful gap filler unit for the army because of the above.

Am I missing something here?

slow. slow. slow. unless you pay the raider tax. not really sure why you cant get three in a rhino or razorback - all the vehicles are 30% underscale anyway. :rolleyes:

[Charon]

Still not sure why people don't rate tactical Terminators.

They're a pretty flexible and resilient squad, capable tackling all but the hardest of targets.

They've got the Dakka to thin out infantry, and Powerfists on everyone is very welcome. Add in a Cyclone or Assault Cannon and they improve still.

Anything that can take them out still has it's work cut out. In HTH, single botched roll and those Powerfists will be deep up your chuff before you can blink. Shooting? That's a lot of dedicated anti-tank which may have better targets elsewhere.

They're a useful gap filler unit for the army because of the above.

Am I missing something here?

Slow, expensive, a lot of AP2 shooting that is NOT dedicated anti tank. They are just a little more beefy than a regular space marine while they cannot match their firepower pointwise.
Also Powerfists on everyone is overkill as standard marines come with krack granades and assault vehilces in the rear anyways.

[Cutter]

In HTH, single botched roll and those Powerfists will be deep up your chuff before you can blink.

Bootiful.

[Mr Mystery]

Slow, expensive, a lot of AP2 shooting that is NOT dedicated anti tank. They are just a little more beefy than a regular space marine while they cannot match their firepower pointwise.
Also Powerfists on everyone is overkill as standard marines come with krack granades and assault vehilces in the rear anyways.

I'm more thinking of big monstrous creature gribblies. The Terminators, whilst naturally not as good as their Assault cousins (that would be weird) have the numbers to worry them. Monstrous Creatures aren't generally noted for a high number of attacks, instead focussing on overall quality, and that they can squash combat characters with contemptuous ease. But, Tactical Terminators can shoot up supporting infantry, and present enough of a threat that as per my previous post that you really don't want to whiff your attacks (and we've all done it!)

Slow is their natural issue - but the same can be said of Assault Terminators. Both can deep strike, but there's not much stopping me from sauntering casually away from them. In that scenario, at least the Tactical Terminators can give it some dakka.

I dunno. Just exploring as I always do. Never been one to take stuff at face value - doesn't mean the face value is wrong though!

[Charon]

Why would any MC ever attack them?
They are not fast enough to choose their targets themselves. Most MC you have to worry about either have Wings or another form of 12" movement.
"Shoot up infantry" is pretty optimistic for 2 S4 shots per goon. Thats whopping 10 shots for a team of 5 while 10 of them is nearly 1/3 of your army. Every army out there either can safely ignore them, tarpit them or just shoot them to pieces.

The warhammer ruleset has huge issues with the representation of elite units as in most cases they die as easy as any other unit while dealing half the damage of multiple small units for the same point costs. (see Chaos Warp Talons)

[CoffeeGrunt]

The problem with Terminators, I find, goes thusly:

"What's in that Land Raider?"

"5 Terminators and Abaddon."

*Drowns in firepower.*

"What's in Reserve?"

"Five Terminators with Lysander."

*Bubble-wraps tanks, receives a light hail of Bolter shots, guns them down.*

They're just too slow and easy to react to. Instant Death isn't necessary when all they rock is a 2+/5++. Weight of fire does 'em, as does diverting something like an Executioner, Riptide, Exocrine, or similar AP2 pie plate blaster to wipe the squad. You have to invest a lot of points into them to make them a credible threat, and that makes them an easy target to point your biggest guns at.

[Mr Mystery]

Tactical Terminators are no more adept at hunting their best targets than Assault Terminators. They're both equally slow.

Advantage of Tactical Terminators is they still carry some form of dakka.

If it was as large an issue as being impossible to engage big stuff at all, nobody would rate Assault Terminators.

[Charon]

Assault Terminators are way more durable thanks to their 3++
Assault terminators also perform poorly but still better than tacticals as they do not fall so easy to AP2 weapons.
Also their only serious competition in that elite slot may be the kombi weapon suicide drop pod.
Assault Terminators are also hardly used to "engage big stuff" but to divert fire. Its easy to fire your exec at tacticals.. they will die quickly. Its a harder choice to fire it at assaults... they have a good chance of surviving (also psykers do support them better than tacticals)
And if you have a choice you stay away from terminators altogether. See Space wolves with their Thunderwolves.

[Haighus]

In some ways, terminators are a very well designed unit, because the time they really shine is in super dense terrain, where the enemy has limited firepower, limited capacity to choose what to engage the terminators with and reduced mobility; coming down a short corridor, there are only so many enemies that can fit into the corridor to oppose the terminators, and at this point, the terminators can destroy unit after unit. This matches the fluff of terminators; boarding actions and other heavily dense terrain is what the armour was designed for, so fluffwise, they fill their intended roll fairly well. Unfortunately it isn't a situation they can capitalise on often.

[Path Walker]

Its one of the ways mathhammer falls down, its easy to say that Terminators are useless because you can fire them off the board, but, if you're playing with enough terrain on the board, then its not easy to bring the weapons you need to bear, it should be rare that your S7 AP2 weapons can see anything on the board, more LOS blocking terrain, and just more terrain in general is part of what makes the game interesting.

[marful]

So, is the problem with Terminators their resiliency or the firepower they bring for their points? (Or a combination thereof)?


What if Termies were toughness 5 or had 2 wounds or something?
What if they had a heavy bolter (or similar) instead of a storm bolter? (Or even access to special ammo?)


Would these things make tactical terminators viable?


Or is it a case of the Storm Shield being just too good of an item?

[Charon]

In some ways, terminators are a very well designed unit, because the time they really shine is in super dense terrain, where the enemy has limited firepower, limited capacity to choose what to engage the terminators with and reduced mobility; coming down a short corridor, there are only so many enemies that can fit into the corridor to oppose the terminators, and at this point, the terminators can destroy unit after unit. This matches the fluff of terminators; boarding actions and other heavily dense terrain is what the armour was designed for, so fluffwise, they fill their intended roll fairly well. Unfortunately it isn't a situation they can capitalise on often.

Even in this scenario, the terminators will get stuck moving through or around the same dense terrain, thus losing more precious game turns.
The more dense the terrain is, the fewer corridors have to be guarded as you also will be forced to get through that tight corridors like a plastic version of 300.
The more terrain and the more BLOS terrain, the better mobility gets. A trait that Terminators do not happen to have.


So, is the problem with Terminators their resiliency or the firepower they bring for their points? (Or a combination thereof)?


What if Termies were toughness 5 or had 2 wounds or something?
What if they had a heavy bolter (or similar) instead of a storm bolter? (Or even access to special ammo?)


Would these things make tactical terminators viable?


Or is it a case of the Storm Shield being just too good of an item?

A combination of both.
When we look at CSM Terminators, they are sometimes utilised as suicide kombimelta squads to pop a tank after DS.
You can afford this because you do not have to pay a powerfist tax on them. Part of the problem are ranged weapons.
Shooting does not care about the shooters stats much and it basically just comes down to the weapon you employ (Snapshots are the worst offender). Also shooting weapons are quite cheap compared to melee weapons which happen to utilize the bearers stats a lot.
The whole AP / Sv system does not work out smoothly as you either have no armor at all (the times my IG friend is allowed to roll actual armor saves is basically zero) or your armor is so good that you cant utilize cover anymore.
If you play IG you might as well buy cheaper models and let them run naked across the table as there is not a whole lot of weapons which will allow a 5+ armor save but getting 5+ cover is extremly easy.

In my mind specialists should come at a discount in points as (theorethically) their numbers are limited and their squadsize is typically smaller (less ablative wounds).
Instead specialists come across like a typical GW one-klick-bundle with a lot of special rules rolled in and no points discount despite missing 75% of the wounds and 50% of the firepower.

Terminators with 2 hp and heavy bolters would sound about right for 40 points actually. Thats a decent amount of firepower with a good wound pool which is sitll affected by ID. T5 would be too much as the ID effect is a handy counter mechanic.
They would also need to come as a 0-1 choice given the rarity of the armor and their elite status.

[Path Walker]

This is why everyone should play Zone Mortalis.

[40kGamer]

This is why everyone should play Zone Mortalis.

Definitely a cool game that breathes new life into several units.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I was specifically referring to Zones Mortalis in my post, where you cannot move through the walls, and pretty much everything is reduced to the same level of mobility as terminators, levelling the playing field. Due to the cramped conditions, it also becomes hard to bring numbers to bear on the squad- you may have 30 marines vs 10 terminators, but it will most likely be 10 on 10 each time, which is then favourable to the terminators, as well as being very short ranged so they are likely to get into combat. You can avoid the terminators all together, but not if they are going for your objective (which they can hold in 7th). Terminators are also one of the few units that are capable of deep striking in Zones Mortalis games, due to deep striking via teleportation, which actually gives them a greater mobility than most units.
Dreadnoughts also benefit from Zones Mortalis greatly too, in that there is little time to blast them apart with firepower before they get into heavy-flamer and assault range, and they aren't as adversely affected as other vehicles being walkers.

[Path Walker]

its 100% my preffered method of playing 40k and i think every gaming group/club should invest in a board, official or making their own, to play on.

[Thornblood]

This would be my fix;

'tactical' terminators;
Special issue ammunition: As Veterans the terminators have access to the special issue ammunition available to sternguard veterans. However, due to the bulky sealed suits of armour, the terminators cannot reload, and must choose before deployment what ammunition they are taking, and may only. Fire that for the rest of the game. Being fired from a storm bolter, said special issue ammunition is fired as if twin linked.

alternatively a new form of special issue Storm bolter ammo such as;
range:24 strength 5, ap 4, assault 2, -1 to cover saves
Maybe fluff wise the terminators are carrying bigger bore storm bolters which fire heavy bolter rounds.


In addition I would give them the following options; Sergeant may take one of the following;
( for different points respectively)
relic blade,
shield terminatus (a combat shield strapped to the forearm which increases the invulnerable to 4+)
twin linked plasma gun,
twin linked gravgun
combi-flamer/melta/plasma/grav
signum

In addition, at +3 or maybe +5 points per model the whole squad may take one of the following veteran tactics; adamantium will (+3), counter attack (+5), furious charge (+3), hatred (+5), precision shots (+5) precision strikes (+3), split fire (+3) tank hunters (+3)

hopefully my it makes the termies a lot more flexible and 'tactical' yet still fitting with the fluff that they are wearing tactical dreadnought armour, can't reload and have had to prepare for a specific purpose before leaving the battle barge/armoury

[Charon]

You would still have the problem that they die like flies... well armored flies, but flies nontheless.
If you compare them to Obliterators for example with 2W and a lot of firepower, its not only one contributing factor that makes them worth (even if they are overpriced) to field but the combination of durability and firepower while staying relatively small.

[jeffersonian000]

As a Grey Knights player, with 33pt Psychic Tac Termies that can take super-assault cannons and mixed Force weapons, I'd say the fix for Marine Tac Termies is 30ppm and accurate Deep Strike. Those two changes would solve a huge chunk of problems without effecting other aspects if the game.

Personally, I think the real fix is to move all Plasma type weapon from AP2 to AP3, but that's a different kind of fix.

SJ

[CoffeeGrunt]

I saw a suggest on Bolter and Chainsword one that might work. Give Terminators a 1+ Armour Save.

"But Coffee," you say in a confused tone, "you always fail on a 1 anyway, so the change is irrelevant!" Ah, mon ami, but now your opponent needs AP1 weapons to punch through that Terminator plate, cutting down the applicable weapons significantly! Doesn't solve the weight-of-fire issue, or bad luck rolling your functional 2+ Save, but it helps them get the chance to roll that 2+ a little more often.

Also I've been pushing the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team ruleset at the store recently, and we found during a casual tournament that Marines are so much better in it, due to significant lack of large blasts, limited number of small blasts or templates, and general scarcity of AP3 or less weapons. Not to mention the smaller scale making weight of fire much tougher to bring.

Heck, it makes things so good in topsy-turvy ways, that one of the better-performing Kill Teams on the day was a Genestealer list, because the things were on you turn 1 from Cover, and the sincere lack of Ignores Cover abilities makes that pretty scary!

Terminators, while rare, are absolute buggers to try and get rid of, especially if your opponent has killed your only AP2 weapons!

[Haighus]

I like the 1+ Sv idea. Would be interested to see how well that works. Would probably shift the melta:plasma equilibrium towards melta with it's AP 1 goodness.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It'd be an interesting change in dynamic, for example, Monstrous Creatures would no longer natively cut through their armour, nor would Lascannons. It'd need playtesting, but it's an interesting concept and a real buff in a fair few areas.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Or we could go back to termies having a 3+ on 2D6.:cool:

[CoffeeGrunt]

That'd be great for rolling 30 Lasgun Wounds in a manner that wouldn't take an afternoon...