Fluff that Soars, Units that Fail - false advertisement in 40k

[Atrotos]

Rules Manufactorum's Most Wanted:

I wanted a list of units that players feel need to be reinvented to better match background and novels. What units are out there that you encounter in Dan Abnett or Graham McNeil's narratives or even in the Rulebook just don't feel... right? And which ones are missing entirely?

The game is full of units that need a competitive boost - what unit has bothered you the most and what would you like to see changed?

[AdamHarry]

I'd like Movie Marines back.

[Melissia]

Movie Marines are a good bit inaccurate to the fluff, so they don't count.

Let's see...

Repentia... Possessed... most of the Necron army... the Leman Russ Punisher... a portion of the Dark Eldar army which those players could probably list better... Ork Looted Tanks...

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[RocketRollRebel]

IG storm troopers are my biggest let down

[Melissia]

Oh yeah, they're bad. Sisters should have the most to fear from them (S3 AP3 against T3 with 3+ saves), but they're still pushovers because I can nearly wipe an entire squad out with one heavy flamer burst and all of my squads have said weapon.

[BuFFo]

Dark Eldar Scourges.... Jump Pack troops that have Heavy Weapons....

[Atrocity]

Thousand Sons. They are nowhere near any of the fluff (especially Index Astartes), hell even the name Aspiring Sorcerer bothers me. They ARE magic wielding sorcerers (which leads to a different bone to pick with the HQ choice of the same name). The sorcerers that lead the rubric marines are some of the legion's most powerful psykers and have lived for centuries only gaining power. Compared to the descriptions they are sorely found lacking. I'm sure that when A Thousand Sons comes out in 2 weeks it will only widen the gap between lore and lost potential.

[Sangre]

Eldar. Across the board.

[RocketRollRebel]

Oh another over hyped fail would have to be the pyrovore. Idk how crazy its fluff is supposed to be but yeah its kinda fail.

There sadly are a lot of units that are cool but end up being gimmicky and not that great by the end of the day. Like as mentioned before Thousand Sons marines. I love their fluff but when it comes down to it they are such sad sad kids.

Grey Knights as well. Not so much gimmicky or utter fail but just do not live up to the fluff and could really stand an update in a big way.

[Atrotos]

Wow a lot of responses already. I'll be reiterating alot of these units on the blog.

RocketRollRebel: I wrote some rules for Storm Trooper Officers that make Storm Troopers more viable and an all Storm Trooper army a possibility. I would love to know how you felt about them:

http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/2010/02/ig-storm-trooper-officer.html

[archimbald]

space marines in general disapoint, esp dark angels
tho all eldar do to

[RocketRollRebel]

Wow a lot of responses already. I'll be reiterating alot of these units on the blog.

RocketRollRebel: I wrote some rules for Storm Trooper Officers that make Storm Troopers more viable and an all Storm Trooper army a possibility. I would love to know how you felt about them:

http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/2010/02/ig-storm-trooper-officer.html

That is pretty cool. Making them scoring would be a big thing and the officers unit makes for a nice HQ option. Something like that would make me consider taking them.

The fact that they cost the same as a space marine and aren't scoring and aren't that much more killy than their Veteran brethren is my biggest hang up with Storm Troopers in this codex. I was really pulling for these guys to get awesome in the new codex too but was sadly let down.

But staying on track I'll throw FlashGits into the ring as a unit that sounds soooooo bad *** and are my personal favorite Ork unit fluff and modeling potential wise but are simply god effing awful rules wise. I normally refrain from being too cynical about units and their abilities but Flash Gits tragically fall flat on their face when it comes to usefulness. Poor Gits

[Melissia]

space marines in general disapoint
usually because people don't know how to use them properly.

[RocketRollRebel]

usually because people don't know how to use them properly.

SM armies in my opinion, require a bit more thought to use properly than I think people give them credit for.

But Space Marines have a really great balanced and versatile codex. The only extra fail unit that I can think of in that codex would be Vanguard and Calgar is the only super craptastic character.

Again GK. The best of the best of the best dont even get a friggin hand grenade that now every guardsmen has!?!?

SoB too. I used to consider them the best troops choice in the game back in the day but have since been surpassed by quite a few troops choices in newer releases.

Necrons fluff (ala Ciaphis Cain Novels) has them as unstoppable horrific kill monsters but leave a lot to be desired game wise.

[Melissia]

I used to consider them the best troops choice in the game back in the day but have since been surpassed by quite a few troops choices in newer releases.
Yeah. Tactical Marines, for example, cost the same amount for a squad of ten with a special/heavy weapon and a veteran in a rhino as Sisters do with the same setup. Except... the Marines get both types of grenades, bolt pistols, combat tactics, an MEQ statline, etc. Acts of Faith do help make up for this, but they're limited, essentially one use only abilities (for the most part one faith point per squad, can obtain another faith point by killing off the sister superior but then the squad can't use acts of faith nor does it have the BoSL).

[Nabterayl]

I have to say that I'm a big fan of the current codex marines. They're a small army that relies on superior mobility and finicky precision, which is exactly what space marines should be. Fluff marines that just charge forward across the board should feel lackluster. The whole point of being a space marine is that you have the smarts, the experience, and the tools to never do that.

[Herald of Nurgle]

- Chaos Spawn
- Lost and the Damned
- Chaos Possessed
- Daemon Princes
- Kroot and Vespids
- Chaos Dreadnoughts

So on, so forth...

[RocketRollRebel]

LatD fail just because they don't exist anymore in an official form which I find sad. So much potential for an awesome army right there.

Oh SM Legion of the Damned. Epic models. Fail rules.

Man I could go all day with this. Thats what I get for painting at my computer all day whilst nursing a hang over :p

[person person]

Vanguard, LotD, Thousand Sons, GK and other stuff thats been said.

[OCdt Mephiston]

Brother Captain Tycho, possibly the best 40k fluff piece with his epic one man stand on Armageddon, and he has.... a combi-melta? Sweet.

[RocketRollRebel]

Brother Captain Tycho, possibly the best 40k fluff piece with his epic one man stand on Armageddon, and he has.... a combi-melta? Sweet.

Oh so true! That is probably the best fluff going. Tearing out warbosses throat with your bare hands=Captain in Artificer armor and a combi-melta. Not ever a friggin chainsword!?!?

New rumors for him make him seem useful now tho. We can hope ;)

I dont know if I got any more that really stand out as awesome fluff/minis and fail rules.

[Morgrim]

Dark Eldar Scourges.... Jump Pack troops that have Heavy Weapons....
Very cool and fitting in fluff, diving down unnoticed on black mechanical wings and launching streams of black light or hails of splinters (or both) before launching off again...

Nice image. Pity it just doesn't work.

Hellions are meant to be Green Goblin style harassers. And I'm always amused that the fluff stresses how good the jetbikes are in combat, how a skilled rider can kill as they pass by merely slitting the jugular with one of the blades, and then have the things be pretty shocking in CC.

[imperialsavant]

Yeah, Grey Knights especially as some of their rules Vs Daemons are no longer applicable but they were never all that great to start with.
Awesome models & Fluff but no so in game terms.

Others in my mind are Vespids,Storm Troopers & Penitant Engines.

Another from my own Sisters Army are Dominions. I know they should rock with 4 Flamers in a Flamer Immy against Orks but they NEVER seem to suvive the first round of C/C after arriving & Flaming (???) Perhaps I need Melissa to coach me (LOL). What I really need is that Inferno cannon to act like the Hellhound one! :rolleyes:

[Melissia]

Your dominions die in CC because they are basic battle sisters who cannot score and pay extra for special weapons, but can have more. And they can't footslog. I solved that problem in my own dex by giving them Scouts that also applied to their transport.

[Atrotos]

Just posted a Thousand Sons 'boost' character on the blog. I hope it helps those poor souls that are still committed to the all Tzeentch army.

http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/2010/02/markias-insane.html

I'll be working on a Grey Knight Dreadnought character next.

I'm surprised no one mentioned Inquisitors or Daemonhosts yet. Possibly the single biggest gap between fluff and rules in 40k. I've got many projects planned for them.

Melissia: I was wondering if your codex had any custom SOB characters that you'd like to contribute to my blog.

EDIT: From what I've read no one had better complain about any BA characters. ;)

[Melissia]

Yesh, but nobody cares about Inquisitors.


There are some that need to be reworked. Saint Celestine is too easy to kill, for example, and there are only rules from an old White Dwarf about Canoness Praxedes. Praxedes is an awesome, awesome character, capable of taking on a Hive Tyrant in hand to hand single combat and winning.

[Madness]

A WAY more balanced vehicle/infantry ratio.

[fuzzbuket]

my grey knights and movie marines!
(I've got a theroy that if you said PA was fat and that all the guard were scaled down you could call the models 40kscale and leave it for the rules the buying factor would be Wayyy unbalanced
army / guys bought
marines/ 10
guatd / 1000
nids/ 1000000

I think the way it is is balanced If you tried to make every army "movie" you'd need d100's charts and a zillion page rulebook it'd turn into a huge game og =][=:mad:

[Melissia]

THe intent of this project isn't to make everything "movie" because making it movie would be inaccurate-- yes, Movie Marines are inaccurate to the background.

[RocketRollRebel]

I feel that the Inquisitors rules are and abilities are appropriate to their fluff. They aren't too weak per se, rather too boring rules wise with few cool viable builds.

Demon hosts for sure though. Forgot about those dudes. What they can do in the Eisenhorn novels and what they can do on the table is light years apart. Not advocating making everything crazy over the top and "movie" like but they could stand to be a little more threatening.

[Master Bryss]

As far as Scourges go, I've tried to fix them by making their wings work like Tau Jetpacks.

See the link in my sig for my attempt at an improved Dark Eldar army overall.

[Majorcrash]

miss the human bombs. And yes I will say it what about the Squats!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sitnam]

But staying on track I'll throw FlashGits into the ring as a unit that sounds soooooo bad *** and are my personal favorite Ork unit fluff and modeling potential wise but are simply god effing awful rules wise. I normally refrain from being too cynical about units and their abilities but Flash Gits tragically fall flat on their face when it comes to usefulness. Poor Gits Id agree here. Thing is, most of their problem comes from their cost. If they were a few points cheap, already came with assault 2, and could receive their first weaponn upgrade free, then they'd be alot better

Grey knights, stormtroopers, and Ogryns are all disapointing to me. And again, their problems stem less from performance and more from price. If Stormies were same price as a battle sister (bolter vs ap3 lasgun, power armor vs having two ccw's somewhat balances in my book.) they'd be alot better.

[Atrotos]

@ RocketRollRebel: Inquisitors need a huge variety of psychic powers and strange, exotic weaponry. Their bodyguards and entourages should some of the most elite and diverse in the game. If GW had done Inquisitor's properly their list of options would be 3 pages long.

[david5th]

SM Vanguards, Old One Eye & LR Vanquisher.

[Mycroft Holmes]

IG roughriders.

All it would take is changing the spears from "The first time they assault" to "Once per game," so you could choose when they were used.

[Lerra]

Units with rules that feel unfluffy:

Necron C'tan
Eldar psykers: they are supposed to be some of the most feared psykers in 40k, but they are pretty average now
Tau Ethereals: why are politicians with no armor or guns on the battlefield?
Dark Angels Belial: Kind of wimpy for the Master of the Deathwing

My favorite flavorful rules:
IG Commissars
Ork Weirdboys
SW Lone Wolves

[Polonius]

This is a favorite topic of mine, but I think the basic question needs to be cleaned up. Rather than asking which units fail to live up their fluff (which is basically all of them), you'd need to ask what units fail even at the battle field roles their fluff says they shoudl excel at.

Tactical marines aren't horribly good, but they do what they codex says: a decent job at nearly any battlefield role. Same thing with scourges. Yes, they're too expensive, but they are both fast moving and armed with heavy wepaons. Rough riders live up to the expectations of light shock cavalry.

Here are a couple of units that simply fail at their fluff roles:

1) Ogryn. Ogryn are durable, and can take a beating, but they simply don't lay out the damage necessary to be true assault unit, which is what the fluff lists them as. Stubborn is nice, but LD7 is really low.

2) Stormtroopers. This is a tough call, as min sized suicide drop melta squads are pretty good, but every other role is better served by Veterans.

[CrimsonFist1149]

space marines in general dont live up to their fluff. but i understand why because if they did no one would be able to beat them.

[RocketRollRebel]

@ RocketRollRebel: Inquisitors need a huge variety of psychic powers and strange, exotic weaponry. Their bodyguards and entourages should some of the most elite and diverse in the game. If GW had done Inquisitor's properly their list of options would be 3 pages long.

Absolutely. They would be so much more fun that way.

[DarkLink]

@ RocketRollRebel: Inquisitors need a huge variety of psychic powers and strange, exotic weaponry. Their bodyguards and entourages should some of the most elite and diverse in the game. If GW had done Inquisitor's properly their list of options would be 3 pages long.

The problem is, lots of expensive wargear doesn't do much to get past their poor statline. Just saying :p.

[Denzark]

Rough Riders. For years, they charge with lances first turn, then draw swords and pistols. DkoK still do I believe.

But now, a hand to hand unit that doesn't have 2 hand to hand wepaons?

B*llocks.

[Atrotos]

The problem is, lots of expensive wargear doesn't do much to get past their poor statline. Just saying :p.

Sure they can - think of the Eldar Witchblades. The elves are only Str. 3 so they give them autowound on a 2+ and triple strength against vehicles. Inquisitors will have similar stuff.

What book was it where the protagonist has to fight a rival Inquisitor's Interrogator? The interrogator had a sword so massive he had to wear a grav-harness to swing it... that's the kind of wargear that could give an Inquisitor a Power Weapon that doubles the Inquisitor's Strength at - 1 to his Initiative.


Rough Riders. For years, they charge with lances first turn, then draw swords and pistols. DkoK still do I believe.

But now, a hand to hand unit that doesn't have 2 hand to hand wepaons?

B*llocks.

Rough riders could really benefit from a short list of 'Doctrines' to give them options such as 2 CCW's, carapace, shotguns etc.

I'll be posting a list of additional IG Doctrines on the blog eventually to add to the Doctrines Veterans can currently take. Right now we're working on a list of Chapter Tactics that will be purchasable for HQ characters allowing players to avoid having to field certain characters in order to represent a certain Chapter.

[MightyOrang]

For me it's always been the Space Marines ... the realities of the game simply do not come within a country mile of the BL books. Read the first chapter of IRON SNAKES, for example, and then imagine 1 tactical marine versus 30 DE warriors.

[Atrotos]

Actually I think a tactical marine in a Land Speeder would probably make short work of 30 DE Warriors, especially with help from a dog and a lucky-as-hell civilian. Tactical squads are fine - they've just become too 'normal' because of the popularity of Marines.

I can't believe no one's said Dreadnoughts yet - the uber Space Marine hero encased in a killing box that dies to anything with the Monstrous Creature special rule. Dreads shouls be WS 5 BS 5 with about 5 attacks - variants should be more even more diesel.

[Nabterayl]

I don't have a problem with the dreads' statline, but I definitely have a problem with the way they interact with MCs. A dreadnought and a carnifex ought to be able to go toe to toe for several rounds before one of them finally triumphs, and it shouldn't be clear which of the two will win. As it is, a carnifex will beat the dreadnought every time because it's an MC and the dreadnought is a vehicle.

[Atrotos]

If a Dread is a marine who's got 5 or 6 centuries on the oldest non-Dread marine in the Chapter shouldn't he be a better fighter? At least in terms of his WS and Attacks?

[Nabterayl]

Well, not necessarily. Dreads are apparently much more mobile than most video depictions of them to date, but I still have a hard time believing a dreadnought has the same range of motion as a space marine. So that would impair the walker's hand to hand fighting ability. Dreadnought pilots lose some amount of personality and awareness with age, too, so that would impair the walker's hand to hand fighting ability (at least compared to a non-dreadnought space marine of equal age). And finally, dreadnoughts spend most of their time not in the field in stasis, whereas non-dreadnought marines spend most of their time not in the field training. So putting all that together I'm okay with dreadnoughts having statlines that are between regular battle brothers and active veterans.

[Atrotos]

Well, not necessarily. Dreads are apparently much more mobile than most video depictions of them to date, but I still have a hard time believing a dreadnought has the same range of motion as a space marine. So that would impair the walker's hand to hand fighting ability. Dreadnought pilots lose some amount of personality and awareness with age, too, so that would impair the walker's hand to hand fighting ability (at least compared to a non-dreadnought space marine of equal age). And finally, dreadnoughts spend most of their time not in the field in stasis, whereas non-dreadnought marines spend most of their time not in the field training. So putting all that together I'm okay with dreadnoughts having statlines that are between regular battle brothers and active veterans.

All good points but the problem remains that a Dreadnought wading into a sea of Orks should remind you of the scene in LotR when Sauron swings his mace and 5 or 6 helpless good guys go flying. Squishing one guardsman per CC phase is just pathetic.

Check out the Dreadnought Characters on the Blog and tell me if they aren't way cooler.

[Nabterayl]

All good points but the problem remains that a Dreadnought wading into a sea of Orks should remind you of the scene in LotR when Sauron swings his mace and 5 or 6 helpless good guys go flying. Squishing one guardsman per CC phase is just pathetic.
Well, maybe, but so is a vanguard veteran squishing just one guardsman per CC phase. My point is that a dreadnought should not necessarily be better than a vanguard vet. Relative to other space marines statlines, I think the dreadnought statline is correct.

[Grubbslinger]

I'm sure this has been stated before but Storm Troopers are really terrible though they are suppose to be the elite of the Imperial Guard. I mean hot-shot lasguns? Not worth the paper they are written on. But the way I envision, and the way they seem to be described, Storm Troopers are like Rangers or Paratroopers. Pop in behind enemy lines, complete a dangerous missions, and then get air lifted out. It just seems that in the actual game, vets do anything a ST squad can, only better.

[Master Bryss]

And another thing about Storm Troopers... why oh why did they change the name of the gun to HOT-SHOT LASGUNS! Hellguns are a much better name!

And yeah, Dreadnoughts need a Canis-Wolfborn type rule where they can hit most of the models it's in combat with. *goes off to Word to do something about it*

[Madness]

It was the original name for the weapon, and also a better descriptor.

[Vepr]

The carnifex. It is described as a terrifying living engine of destruction but it is really just a slow plodding point sink even if you use a pod that if it is lucky might reach combat with one wound left. About the only thing frightening about the carnifex now is trying to make use of it as a Tyranid player.

[Atrotos]

Is there really no hope for the Carnifex? I was hoping nid players would find a way to make it useful again...

I'd like to see a character for IG that can give orders to vehicles. FW already has rules for Armored Battlegroup and IG Tanks HQ choices but I'd like to see it taken a bit further.

[Dark_Templar]

And another thing about Storm Troopers... why oh why did they change the name of the gun to HOT-SHOT LASGUNS! Hellguns are a much better name!

And yeah, Dreadnoughts need a Canis-Wolfborn type rule where they can hit most of the models it's in combat with. *goes off to Word to do something about it*

lol. I just pictured a Dread firmly planting his feet and then spinning his torso around, hitting everything withing D3".

[person person]

Lol, unless the dread has a CCW than I can't picture it killing much more than a few guardsmen in combat, even fluffwise.

[AirHorse]

like someone else said, everything is a disapointment compared to the fluff! Apart from maybe that time two basic guardsmen managed to kill a space marine chapter master by chasing him down as he fled combat(though I bet it was disapointing for the chapter master :P). Truely exceptional examples though are a bit rarer overall I think.

My personal list:

Vindicare assassins-this guy should be able to snipe your opponents commander at the critical moment before the game even began, ending not just the skirmish, but the entire war with a single shot and all before your opponent even realised he was going to come and play a game against you! I can but dream! :)

Dreadnoughts-They should be armour 14 going by the descriptions in the fluff! They supposedly stride accross the battlefield reaping a terrible toll on the enemy all the while even the heaviest shots bounce off their armour, allowing them to reach ages that stretch accross millenia. Unfortunately mine get shot by an auto cannon and get stuck unable to move because they are dazed for a bit, meanwhile my tactical marines shrug off those shots and sprint accross the battlefield as if nothing happened :(

Stealth units-Is it just me or does every army have some sort of uber detection system that renders any form of stealth useless? It would be nice if hidden deployment was a standard option for stealthy units, as it is eldar pathfinders appear to be about as stealthy as an ogryn who found a whack-a-mole machine in the bushes!

Could think of a billion more units, but those are some of my biggest personal greivances :P

[RocketRollRebel]

Is there really no hope for the Carnifex? I was hoping nid players would find a way to make it useful again...

I'd like to see a character for IG that can give orders to vehicles. FW already has rules for Armored Battlegroup and IG Tanks HQ choices but I'd like to see it taken a bit further.

Carnifex's arent too bad still. Just take a brood of 3 screamer killers. But yeah they did get hit in the nuts pretty hard in the new 'dex.

Splinter rifles sound nasty in the fluff but sadly fail on the table top. Rapid fire?!? Really?!?

[eagleboy7259]

Just going by the newer fluff, Papa Smurf and Lysander, I heard they can take on whole armies you know...

But in terms of actual serious input from me what about working from the other end? The semi-worthless fluffwise stuff that just for some reason works out a lot better than it ever should... like grots beating on guardsmen, guardsmen beating on guardians? Or that the Armor on a Rhino or War Walker is that close to scrap metal that an Ork can stick together with gum? Sounds mighty fishy to me...

[Atrotos]

In order to cover famous regiments, skitarii, Tanith etc I've published a list of additional Imperial Guard Doctrines (http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/search/label/Imperial%20Guard%20Doctrines) on the blog. This will be followed by Chaos IG Doctrines and then a list of Doctrines to help player make Inquisitorial forces. Hopefully these will fill a gap for many players wishing to field something different.

With that done I'll begin work on some of the things listed here by other posters - I've got my work cut out for me!

[Subject Keyword]

Dreadnoughts for me. They are my second favorite model and concept in the game and every time one drops on the field I rapid fire it with 15 Necron warriors and it's left sitting immobile, flailing its broken long range weapons around, trying to hit an enemy that no longer cares about its presence. I'd feel confident in saying that the missile doohickeys that are installed in the Drop Pods that Dreadnoughts so frequently come in do more damage to me each game than the Dreds themselves.

But the fluff is awesome! It's a little sad that a warrior who has tested his meddle against the finest foes in the galaxy for thousands of years, died heroically, had his corpse hardwired into an unstoppable Mech, and served for thousands of more years, gets shot in the a** by my 65 point skimmer and explodes on the first turn every time.

I'm a fool to bring this upon myself, but I want completely unstoppable, badd*ss Dreadnoughts! Enough with the corpse barbecues!

[Atrotos]

I'm a fool to bring this upon myself, but I want completely unstoppable, badd*ss Dreadnoughts! Enough with the corpse barbecues!

^Quoted For Truth. Preach it!

Lol I used to play a 6-Dread list in 4th ed. How Dreadnoughts fare in 5th? Is it really that bad?

[Brosef Stalin]

Lol I used to play a 6-Dread list in 4th ed. How Dreadnoughts fare in 5th? Is it really that bad?

I wouldn't say bad, but for the points, they can be kinda lacking. Especially the 60 extra points for a Venerable dread that still gets destroyed on turn 1. :(

[Melissia]

Read the first chapter of IRON SNAKES, for example, and then imagine 1 tactical marine versus 30 DE warriors.

That's because that's a crappy story that is entirely marinewank and not really based off of the background. Seriously, don't get some people started on that book... hell a great many BL books are like this, they basically take one group of individuals and make them seem like gods upon the battlefield. Well this is 40k, EVERYONE is a god on the battlefield. Commissars can take down Astartes, Astartes can take down a thousand Orks, a Sister can take down a Hive Tyrant, a single gene-stealer can take down an entire spaceship crew, including the soldiers that the ship is transporting and the ship's own marines (in the traditional sense of the word).

[Renegade]

Dreads should be able to take more on. In the fluff they are unstoppable, on the table top its a case of trying to keep them alive.

Since reading "A Thousand Sons" the Thousand Sons are grossly underpowered.

The rest is already said.

[Dark_Templar]

That's because that's a crappy story that is entirely marinewank and not really based off of the background. Seriously, don't get some people started on that book... hell a great many BL books are like this, they basically take one group of individuals and make them seem like gods upon the battlefield. Well this is 40k, EVERYONE is a god on the battlefield. Commissars can take down Astartes, Astartes can take down a thousand Orks, a Sister can take down a Hive Tyrant, a single gene-stealer can take down an entire spaceship crew, including the soldiers that the ship is transporting and the ship's own marines (in the traditional sense of the word).

Have to agree there. Having single Astartes holding a position for weeks on end is just crazy. I would respect the units and fluff more for being semi-realistic in their abilities, as opposed to just making them teh most awesomnest thing evarr!!1

[Atrotos]

Master Bryss has, in response to comments in this this thread, contrived a more combat capable Dreadnought that can hold its own in assault with pretty much anything.

Check it out. (http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/2010/02/legendary-dreadnought.html)

[Melissia]

Yeah, and oftentimes nonsensical too.

Eviscerators, Chainfists, and Meltaguns can't get 2d6 pen, but Melta Bombs can? yeah, that's stupid. Might as well call it a monolith on legs.

[Sir Biscuit]

Melissa, what I like about you is how nice you are.

I do agree though that the dreadnought is a bit over the top. It's significantly harder to take down than a land raider, and unless you're attacking it with meltabombs, you can never actually kill it.

It illustrates the point that no one's happy with the power levels you give some things.

[Atrotos]

I can't take credit for the rules. Master Bryss wrote them and I'm sure he'll be along presently to defend his view point.

For my part I agree that the Dreadnought is powerful. It may need a points revision or a slight rules edit but something must be done about the fragility of Dreads against 2D6 Weaponry - Straken should not be eating Dreads for brunch, am I wrong?

I could discuss this at great length (I love feedback, even Melissia's) but this really isn't the place. I'd happy to talk about it in a new thread, PM, email or on the blog itself.




It illustrates the point that no one's happy with the power levels you give some things.

I wouldn't say no one's happy. I do get positive feedback but it's human nature to be more verbal about things we don't like than the things we have no problem with. If you have have an issue with the power levels of stuff on the blog why not post there about it? Every post will be answered.

[AdamHarry]

That's because that's a crappy story that is entirely marinewank and not really based off of the background. Seriously, don't get some people started on that book... hell a great many BL books are like this, they basically take one group of individuals and make them seem like gods upon the battlefield. Well this is 40k, EVERYONE is a god on the battlefield. Commissars can take down Astartes, Astartes can take down a thousand Orks, a Sister can take down a Hive Tyrant, a single gene-stealer can take down an entire spaceship crew, including the soldiers that the ship is transporting and the ship's own marines (in the traditional sense of the word).


wait... so you're saying the printed black library books aren't actually fluff, but, rather made up stories that don't apply to actual fluff?

So what counts as part of the fluff and not?

[Melissia]

The codices first and foremost. The BL books are usually of low quality and often exist little more than to glorify something in a way that doesn't even fit in with the rest of the fluff.

Ciaphas Cain, for example, effortlessly killed two Khornate Berzerkers in a single story. Does that mean that Commissars are greater than Khornate Berzerkers? No, of course not. It means that Ciaphas Cain in specific is a badass, a special character if you will.

[Madness]

Or the two CSM were utter crap, or the situation was favorable, or he got lucky, or Tzeentch was bored...

[Melissia]

Regardless of how you interpret it, it isn't representative of the usual Khornate Berserker in close combat.

[Madness]

I was providing alternative means to get to a literary moment that doesn't represent the average situations. Agreeing, in one word.

[Sangre]

wait... so you're saying the printed black library books aren't actually fluff, but, rather made up stories that don't apply to actual fluff?

So what counts as part of the fluff and not?

Don't worry about Melissia, she's often wrong about this sort of thing.

[Nabterayl]

wait... so you're saying the printed black library books aren't actually fluff, but, rather made up stories that don't apply to actual fluff?

So what counts as part of the fluff and not?
Gotta go with Madness and Mel here. GW doesn't publish "fluff." It publishes data that points us to fluff.

Questions about fluff can't be answered by quoting any single GW source, any more than questions about World War II can be answered by quoting any single primary source. The only way we have to get at the "real" fluff is to digest all the available GW material historiographically. Uncritically saying, "A single space marine can hold a position for weeks; one of them did it in Brotherhood of the Snake" is as bad as uncritically saying, "A single U.S. Army lieutenant can defeat an entire German battalion; Audie Murphy did it."

At worst, a primary source like that should be treated as an outright fabrication. More likely, it should be treated as lacking important context or details. Even at best, if there's good reason to treat the source as true (as it essentially is in Murphy's case), it should definitely not be viewed as typical performance. The only way to establish typical performance is to see the performance repeated, over and over.

[Madness]

To put it in pop-culture terms, look at 300, sure it might not be TOO historically accurate, and we can give credit to the Spartans military might, but without the geographical advantage of a narrow passage they wouldn't have lasted a second.

Sometimes a favourable environment is all it takes to give some people the chance for an heroic moment.

"Marinewank" is short for "I didn't like it", if we start to shake the "*wank" stick at everything then rational discussion is not possible.

That said the TT game is grossly normalized (specially since 3rd ed.), and since recent editions the only mean of survival is tankspam, which really takes away from the heroic feel of the single model.

Consider that a model with toughness 4 is comparable to an AV of 8 (a lasgun will penetrate both with a 5+) so even the puniest of the AV10 vehicles is actually equivalent to T6 (+/- 4 to convert) which is higher than the average hero. In other words it has became harder to kill a rhino than it is to kill a hero.

[Melissia]

"Marinewank" isn't short for "I don't like it" (no, that's "sucks" amongst other things-- I don't really like even the accurate Space Marine fluff), it's short for "wanks off Marines" phrase meaning that it glorifies them beyond their actual capabilities in the background.



In other words it has became harder to kill a rhino than it is to kill a hero.
Only if the hero has no armor/invulnerable save allowed, and if you ignore multiple wounds, but even then, I have no problem with this. My Canoness is much harder to kill than any of my Rhinos, to be sure. Harder to kill than my opponents' Land Raiders or their Ironclad Dreadnaughts or their Leman Russ tanks.

[Madness]

Multiple wounds and the damage table effect are comparable, I said +4 but +4 includes glancing hits, a more to the point comparison would be +3, making armor AV10 an effective T7. Yes I'm not accounting saves but I'm not considering a special character, just a "standard" hero, also consider that cover and other types of saves all account to one possible roll, no more.

Not considering characters are eligible for ID, of course vehicles are vulnerable to melta, but characters are vulnerable to poison/snipers.

For the sake of argument can I see your canoness so I can mathhammer her into some raw data?

This still doesn't take away the fact that illustration/book/order of battles in IA books = lots of infantry, game = tank"wank".

[AdamHarry]

The codices first and foremost. The BL books are usually of low quality and often exist little more than to glorify something in a way that doesn't even fit in with the rest of the fluff.



Ok, i agree with the first part about the codices, for sure. But like it or not BL books are part of the universe and part of the fluff. You can't ignore those books just because they "aren't good" or "you don't like them" because they have that GW stamp of approval. It's Canon = It's Fluff.

CS Goto wrote about marines using "multi-lasers" or some crap and not bolters... A 5 man death watch kill-team flew into the maw of a hive fleet, killed the "mother ship" and flew back while the remnants of a 10 man tac held off the Nid invasion.

As "far fetched" as that seems, that's suppose to be the norm for the hero's of the imperium. and it doesn't stop with marines. all the IG books are just as "wanky" as the marine books too...

[Master Bryss]

Right, in defence of the poor Dreadnought...

I apologise for my occasional stupidity. I DID intend for the rules to only not allow extra dice in combat, but because I mistyped, it came out wrong. Apologies. I didn't intend the Dread to be made of living metal. I overlooked Tankbusta Bombz because in all of 40k-dom they only appear once. And considering the Dread's DoW inspiration, they SHOULD affect the dread (the bit at the end of the intro sequence comes to mind).

So don't worry, your precious, precious melta gun, worth more to you than the rest of your army, will still work.

(And yes I just think of melta as a gun, not a gamewinner)

[Melissia]

I never discounted the BL books, merely stated that they were not as accurate as the codices, or not in my eyes at any rate.


but I'm not considering a special character, just a "standard" hero
... but I am. Invulnerable saves are common amongst the HQ choices of the fifth edition codices. The Imperial Guard Company Commander has a 5++ save. The Space Marine Captain and Chaplain both have 4++ saves.

As for a well-equipped Canoness... I'll have to PM you the information on her, as I am not going to post a statline here. Still, I would say she is much harder to kill than most vehicles, even a Land Raider is relatively easy to pop open.


Bryss: The meltagun is my army's only real anti-tank. You can hardly blame me for not liking the rules that basically nullify it and eviscerators at the same time on a deadily close combat participant. Basically, if I cannot use meltaguns to take down a vehicle, then I cannot take it down unless I build a list specifically to do so; for that matter there's only ever a 1/36 chance that any anti-tank shot from my army will take down a monolith, but at the very least Necrons do not force you to focus on anti-tank because you can force them to phase out. You cannot do the same to Marines.

[Master Bryss]

@ Melissia: Point taken. Pure Sisters forces are limiting enough even before you consider weapons.

[Madness]

Still 5++/4++ only saves one hit each 3/2 which is not saying much since they become vulnerable to weapons with low strength whereas vehicles are literally immune to them. Again, AV 10=T7, and AV10 is the lowest AV ever, which is even rare on the front of the model.

[Melissia]

True, but characters also get ablative wounds in the form of their retinue. Especially the IG and Sisters characters, whom both use the actual retinue rules (Marine characters do not, much to the dismay of many of that army's players).

[Madness]

That is in fact the only redeeming quality, yet pretty boring, I mean the game turned into Epic, where you can't have a character, you need to fill the base with 4 more random dudes. Not even that since in Epic infantry is actually worth something more than "scoring unit" or "we are ablative (perfect adj. btw) wounds for the guy with the melta/powerfist/heavy weapon".

[Melissia]

And yet, in my experience infantry can very well dominate the field. Perhaps I am biased for Sisters are an infantry-dominated army, but even Mechanized Sisters merely use their transports as mobile shields which they attempt to use to get up close so that the infantry can do its job. Exorcists are quite handy, but a Sisters army can function without them. They are heavy support, so to speak, where troops are truly mandatory-- the core of the army, the true threat that the enemy must counter.

[Madness]

Older codices do suffer less, yes. And in my opinion, are also truer to fluff, vehicles are usually described as mostly support, sometimes spearhead, seldom mobile cover.

[Melissia]

Not just older codices. While the Guard may rely on tanks more than other armies, this is accurate to the fluff, and yet they can survive and do decently enough with heavy and special weapons on their infantry. Squads of veterans are very popular and very powerful if used right, and massed infantry squads supported by heavy weapons cannot be truly ignored even when there are Leman Russes on the table Still, they are Guard, and so heavy support is important to them.

As for Marines, don't ever doubt the power of six full squads of Astartes in rhinos. They're the same price as six squads of Battle Sisters in rhinos, except better armed and more capable of handling most situations, with only a modest sacrifice in their short-ranged shooting power-- but then they wouldn't necessarily need to shoot so much as they would want to use bolt pistols and charge (something which Sisters cannot do). And all this despite the fact that Marines tend to favor elites and fast attack choices, as fits their fluff.

I'm not sure about Wolves or Tyranids, I haven't really looked at their codices in depth, but even if they are not, that would mean half of the 5th edition codices allow for very troops-centric armies.

[Grimgore]

For me, and to steer this slightly back on topic, it would have to be...

Possessed - I can see where the whole random power thing is going, the power of the warp can be random... however, when reading the fluff from the 'Dex or elsewhere they never seem to have the problem of having what they need to get the job done.

Greater and Lesser Demons - They can't be marked? Or have wings? Lesser Demons with a wing option would at least let some players field their Furys they bought back in the day. Letting Demons in the CSM 'Dex take marks would not be game breaking.

[Madness]

ACTUALLY possessed sometimes turn into spawns, or sludge, or bunnies. Chaos is both impredictable and random. In the fluff.

[Dark_Templar]

ACTUALLY possessed sometimes turn into spawns, or sludge, or bunnies. Chaos is both impredictable and random. In the fluff.

I think this topic has become impredictable.

[papa smurf]

i agree on the kroot and vespid, herald of nurgle.
having started a tau army recently and reading a couple books that have some tau stuff in them i feel like kroot should have a higher initiative and such, and be able to pretty much dominate anything that enters a piece of cover that a kroot occupies. and i don't just mean like an extra cover save, but like an ambush rule or something would be nice

[Madness]

unpredictable?

[LoverzCry]

Assault Squad marines. I'm sorry, but guys who constantly launch themselves into the heat of combat on jump packs, slashing at the heretical xenos with the chainswords of awesomeness should have a WS of 5 not 4. Also, Eldar psychic units are supposed to be some of the most powerful psychers in the multiverse, and they're just not living up to their fluff.

[Melissia]

I'm sorry, but guys who constantly launch themselves into the heat of combat on jump packs, slashing at the heretical xenos with the chainswords of awesomeness should have a WS of 5 not 4You mean penal legionnaires? Or Stormboyz? Seraphim and Canoness with jump pack? Chaos Raptors? Fleshhounds of Khorne? Hellions and Reavers? Oh wait, no, you're referring to Assault Marines, whom are essentially newbies as far as Marines go, practically fresh from graduating from being Scouts, not veterans.

No, they should not. Even just using Marine fluff they shoudln't. Assault Marines shouldn't have any higher stats than Tactical Marines, because Tactical Marines graduate from being an Assault Marine (I believe it is Scouts->Devastator->Assaulter->Tactical). You could have had an argument for vanvets, but not Assault Marines.

[Madness]

AFAIK it's scout->marines (regardless of which squarda they are serving at the moment, they are trained for most roles) -> veterans. I might agree tho that +1A and +1Ld isn't that much veteranitude, but it's how the game system works, a veteran can't be as good as a chaplain now can it? WS5 is a harlequin-level of skill, which is a LOT.

[rbryce]

@ madness: it does go scout>devastator>assault marine>tactical marine>sergeant/veteren. tactical marines are meant to have the widest skill set and experience, and works on the principal of the better you are, the closer to the enmy you get kinda thing. yes, i know you cant get much closer than assault, but tacticals are meant to be able to do EVERYTHING, as opposed to specialization.

@ mel: why would seraphim need WS5, theyre meant to use their guns, not their fists arent they? use JPs to get in close, unload bullet-ey retribution, then jump out and let celestians take the enemy in assault? thats how i read it anyway. probably wrong though.

as for the topic, all CC units in the WH dex, they look awsome, should be able to tear apart just about anything shy of a land raider/monolith(excepting arco's, who should be able to slap mass infantry), and always die first turn. oh, wait, they do that last bit really well.

[Madness]

Holy retcon, Batman. Thanks for setting me straight.

[rbryce]

it was in the vanilla release white dwarf if i remember right, and possibly in the dex too, ill have a read tonight. saving quahog is all in a days work ro... CRAP!!! wrong show!

[Melissia]

@ mel: why would seraphim need WS5, theyre meant to use their guns, not their fists arent they? use JPs to get in close, unload bullet-ey retribution, then jump out and let celestians take the enemy in assault? thats how i read it anyway. probably wrong though.

Seraphim do use their guns. Both as guns and as close combat weapons. Seraphim are the only Sisters units that HAVE two close combat weapons, Celestians (due to an aneurysm by the army list designers) just have bolters, basically they're equipped the same as normal Battle Sisters, even though they SHOULD be the ones that are best in close combat.

[rbryce]

i understand what your saying there mel, but i always thought it was more as a last resort to use them as CCw, as pistol whipping is no-where near as preferable to actual CCW, and the hit'n'run move kinda lent itself as a way to get out of close combat, not a way to be effective in it. i guess its different interpretations on a theme. iprefered them to assault marines cos they felt shooty, not assaulty like just about any other jump troop

EDIT: also feel that celestians should be a bit better. i wouldnt give them the bolt pistol/ccw combo, maybe sarrissas for the squad instead? especially the retinue for the canoness

[Madness]

Celestians are under designed freaks, sadly. The only consistent units in the SoBs are battle sisters, canoness, seraphims and repentia (although controversial). Dominions and Celestian reek of "we need to fill slot choices". Yay for the 3rd ed. codices.

[Melissia]

Nope nbryce, they actually have a special rule that makes them use their pistols specifically as two close combat weapons AND twin-linked pistols. I basically assume they have some sarissa analog on their bolt pistols.

[rbryce]

im not argueing that they can use the pistols as 2 CCW and twin-linked shooting at that, but isnt that more a concequence of there being, well, 2 of them? a single pistol is a CCW, so 2 would be 2 CCW, and twin-linked to represent the increased "accuracy" that comes with firing more shots. i think of them more as JP equiped grammatron(sp?) monks from equalibrium(i know the film came later). primarily trained for ranged combat, but heavily trained in CC moves too, but definately more shooty. (the monks used mostly CC in the film, that was more due to the fight scenes being indoors more than anything, but if your only weapons are guns then your preference is ranged surely?)

[Melissia]

Second edition Codex: sisters of Battle states that Seraphim know "ancient fighting techniques" passed down from the Daughters of hte Emperor of old, including unarmed and armed hand to hand combat, along with their special ability with two pistols. Basically, they are very heavily trained in close combat.

Seraphim have actually MORE fluff making them close combat specialists than Celestians do, despite Celestians having Holy Hatred.

[rbryce]

one day ill get that dex, i dont buy online anymore, so i cant ebay it or anything. shops dont stock it, so thats out too. ne'er mind, ill find it one day. ill bow to your wisdom... this time lol

[Valkerie]

Second edition Codex: sisters of Battle states that Seraphim know "ancient fighting techniques" passed down from the Daughters of hte Emperor of old, including unarmed and armed hand to hand combat, along with their special ability with two pistols. Basically, they are very heavily trained in close combat.

Seraphim have actually MORE fluff making them close combat specialists than Celestians do, despite Celestians having Holy Hatred.

One thing else, Mel. Seraphim used to be able to either fire two shots at one unit, or one shot each at two different units. Seraphim used to be really bada$$ troops, back in the day.

[Vermicious Knid]

I can't take credit for the rules. Master Bryss wrote them and I'm sure he'll be along presently to defend his view point.

For my part I agree that the Dreadnought is powerful. It may need a points revision or a slight rules edit but something must be done about the fragility of Dreads against 2D6 Weaponry - Straken should not be eating Dreads for brunch, am I wrong?

I could discuss this at great length (I love feedback, even Melissia's) but this really isn't the place. I'd happy to talk about it in a new thread, PM, email or on the blog itself.



I wouldn't say no one's happy. I do get positive feedback but it's human nature to be more verbal about things we don't like than the things we have no problem with. If you have have an issue with the power levels of stuff on the blog why not post there about it? Every post will be answered.


I may be a touch late to the conversation, but simply treating Dreadnoughts as Monstrous Creatures (see Wraithlord for an example) would solve most of the problems with its fragility and battlefield role.

Heck, you could even have that multi-round slugfest with a carnifex. :D

[Atrotos]

Vermicious Knid changing the rules from the ground up was never the point. Replacing existing entries with ones that are just more powerful is not the way to get homebrew rules widely accepted. New entries tend to be more acceptable than simply points hacking or changing existing ones. In short you can add to what GW has done fairly easily but subtract from it and people get defensive.

[Vermicious Knid]

Vermicious Knid changing the rules from the ground up was never the point. Replacing existing entries with ones that are just more powerful is not the way to get homebrew rules widely accepted. New entries tend to be more acceptable than simply points hacking or changing existing ones. In short you can add to what GW has done fairly easily but subtract from it and people get defensive.


LOL. I've always felt that if you were gonna start producing house rules you might as well go nuts and tweak the game to your liking...because it is only going to be you and your friends using them. ;)


Didn't mean to crap in your thread though. My apologies.

[Lindargo]

Just as a note, i think its pretty ironic that in the fluff, Wraithguard are used to bolster Eldar's low numbers; yet in games of 40k taking a unit of 10 Wraithguard means you probably wont have ANY other numbers!

-Lindargo

p.s. yes, that was dramatization.

[HellCrusader]

For me it would have to be Terminators: the best armour and weapons in the galaxy, but 1 dies for every 6 wounds, and they come with……………….…………storm bolters!

[Melissia]

Maybe you just suck with using them? Out of all of the units in this thread, terminators have the LEAST to whine about...Especially the (relatively) cheap terminators in the Space Marine codex.

If I want to take down a Terminator squad, I have to take several squads and focus fire on it, often for multiple turns-- they're quite durable, ESPECIALLY TH/SS termies. Frankly it's usually easier to throw a squad at it and tar-pit the damn terminators...

[sonsoftaurus]

Rules Manufactorum's Most Wanted:

I wanted a list of units that players feel need to be reinvented to better match background and novels. What units are out there that you encounter in Dan Abnett or Graham McNeil's narratives or even in the Rulebook just don't feel... right? And which ones are missing entirely?

The game is full of units that need a competitive boost - what unit has bothered you the most and what would you like to see changed?

I think a lot of the time the "poor" units actually can do quite well in the fluff because they're in more favorable situations. Running into a Possessed CSM or a Chaos Spawn in a hallway with three guardsmen? Trouble. Run into them on a battlefield where they can be hit by artillery, prepped HW teams, battletanks? Lot smaller problem.

Should some units like Repentia or Spawn be improved or have costs reduced to reflect their utility in the actual game we use them in? Sure. But I don't take fluff use and game use to be the same.