Independent Characters casting spells while joined to a unit

[Lord Krungharr]

Had an iffy rules quandry yesterday, there 2 or 3 Librarians joined to 3 Centurions, and one failed to cast invisibility on a Knight; so then another Librarian joined to the unit wanted to try to cast it after the first guy failed. Is that permitted? Here are the pertinent IC rules that I could find:

page 166 BRB: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

then in the psychic rules:

page 24 BRB: "...but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

I thought this meant 2 psykers joined in the same unit could not cast a power that the other model failed to cast, but another guy thought that since the psykers ICs are separate unit entries and can leave a unit, that they could do attempt the same power if another failed within the unit.

So I guess the overall question is does an IC remain a separate unit for psyker purposes? I don't think so but thought I would check with the public opinions.

[Charistoph]

They could if one or more left the unit and became separate units. The BRB is quite clear.

The only argument I've seen otherwise is an insistence that the Psyker ICs count as separate units even while being in another unit. A state unsupported by the rules, and only if one House Rules.

[Sly]

So I guess the overall question is does an IC remain a separate unit for psyker purposes? I don't think so but thought I would check with the public opinions.

It has been ruled at several tournaments that they do count as separate units, but that would have the status of a house rule because it was listed in the tournament special rules. According to the base rules, they are one unit, and one unit cannot try to manifest the same power twice.

Do they make Morale checks as one unit? Do they get shot at as one unit? If they get a unit buff, do they all get it? Yes, yes, and yes. QED, they are one unit.

[daboarder]

yeah welcome to 7th the rules for psychic powers and units dont work as written.

people go with the IC psykers being seperate units.

Otherwise you get stupidity like the seer council where every member knows any power any other member rolled and the farseer can just tank all their peril's etc etc

[jeffersonian000]

Rules as written has the combined unit of IC Psykers acting as a single unit able to cast any power know to the individual ICs, but only once per power.

Example: Crowe and a GK Librarian with Cleansing Flame are attached to a unit of Purifiers. 6-7 Warp Charges, three instances of Cleansing Flame, one Psyker "unit", and Cleansing Flame can only be cast once.

To better optimize, the Purifiers need to combat squad, and Crowe and the Libby need to stay unattached. You would then have 8-9 Warp Charges and 4 separate castings of Cleansing Flame.

SJ

[Dave Mcturk]

this seems a classic case of RAW going against RAI.

lock councils are a great example - obviously intended to operate [or at least be able to] as a 'unit' as per the relatively new newdar codex; but if only allowed to use 'one' attempt at each power [per unit]; [bearing in mind that only half the powers work for footlocks and half for jetlocks]; they end up using maybe two or three powers maximum - at the no risk level of one warp charge that is an average of one and a half powers per game turn ! ["the most advanced psychers in the galaxy"]:rolleyes:

equally two eldar farseers that 'both' after millennia of study and experience have the same 'randomly learnt' spellset [ ;) ] cannot both use their abilities if they happen to match ! [unless they join different units !]

and over all [with a few obvious exceptions] - psychic powers are now pretty poor, and also harder to use 'against' enemy units [i reckon its about 50% for buffs and about 33% for maledictions / shooting - they arent exactly game breaking !