Space Marines vs Halo Spartans

[Kefka]

Sorry, I found this hilariously bad game and just had to post it.
How many Spartans can a Space Marine kill before he gets taken down?

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1265176060

My record is 1056

[Force21]

omg LOL!!!


that is funny...


I got 910....not great...

[entendre_entendre]

God that's strangely addicting.

Totally accurate representation though.

[fuzzbuket]

loL!!

[Melissia]

Halo is mediocre, and 40k is awesome. Therefor Space Marines, despite being mediocre and overdone in 40k standards, are still hella better than Spartans. Wheeeeeeeee etc etc etc. *goes over there and watches the ****storm*

[DarkLink]

I have to say, I like the Halo universe more than the 40k one. At least Bungie is willing to move the plot forward. And Halo doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief half as much as 40k.

[Melissia]

I honestly dunno about the universe, never played the games aside from a few hours at a friends house. Just wasn't impressed, and I don't have an x-box, so I never got into it.

[Sangre]

I love the music. Any ideas what it is?

Edit: found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oNc3PvvntQ&feature=related

[Grotzooka]

Mmm... from a fluffy perspecive it should be Spartans beating the snot out of SMs. A Space Marine is tough and killy and shoots mini-RPGs, but Spartans are impossibly strong and quick, and have stupid little shields. So, one-on-one the Spartan probably wins.

But, heck, Marines are cooler.

[BuFFo]

Now that is an awesome game.

Perfect representation of how a Space Marine would bend over a Spartan without even trying.

[ZenPaladin]

I just wana say that as a fan of both 40K and Halo.

Someone who has followed 40K from Rouge Trader and played and beaten every Halo game and read every book.

The Spartans are superior to the Marines. And in a one on one fight with the average Spartan vs average Marine? The Spartan should come out on top.

Now that's basic down and dirty and I know most people here don't care about an honest debate as to much. But hey there it is. My 0.2

[Fellend]

Mmm... from a fluffy perspecive it should be Spartans beating the snot out of SMs. A Space Marine is tough and killy and shoots mini-RPGs, but Spartans are impossibly strong and quick, and have stupid little shields. So, one-on-one the Spartan probably wins.

But, heck, Marines are cooler.

Impossibly strong and quick with stupid little shields, Sounds like a silly Tau battlesuit to me.

[DarkLink]

I honestly dunno about the universe, never played the games aside from a few hours at a friends house. Just wasn't impressed, and I don't have an x-box, so I never got into it.

The universe is pretty big (though it doesn't have 30+ years of vaugely incoherent, self contradictory work behind it). Beyond the 5 current games, there are numerous books, comics, etc. Once again, not as vast as the 40k verse, but as a whole much, much, much better written and more internally consistant.

In fact, if I had to guess at why Halo is so popular, it's because it combines smooth, simple gameplay, excellent multiplayer and a really engaging story with interesting characters and world setting to back it up. Not many games have all 3 of those.


Mmm... from a fluffy perspecive it should be Spartans beating the snot out of SMs. A Space Marine is tough and killy and shoots mini-RPGs, but Spartans are impossibly strong and quick, and have stupid little shields. So, one-on-one the Spartan probably wins.

But, heck, Marines are cooler.


I just wana say that as a fan of both 40K and Halo.

Someone who has followed 40K from Rouge Trader and played and beaten every Halo game and read every book.

The Spartans are superior to the Marines. And in a one on one fight with the average Spartan vs average Marine? The Spartan should come out on top.

Now that's basic down and dirty and I know most people here don't care about an honest debate as to much. But hey there it is. My 0.2

Spartans and Marines are really very similar, with the exception being that the whole 40k universe is turned up to 11 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UpToEleven). The Halo universe makes a fair amount of effort to feel realistic, or as realistic as the 26th century could be.

And considering technology in 40k is tens of thousands of years more advanced than in Halo, and Space Marines have the writers on their side in just about everything, Spartans do pretty well for themselves.

For me, the comparison is comparing a cool action movie that was over the top (like GI Joe Rise of Cobra), to an extremely well written, really cool and complex movie (like the Matrix). I liked GI Joe, but it I had to pick the one I like better, it's the Matrix every time. Thus, Spartans are cooler than Space Marines.

[Dark_Templar]

am i the only one who struggled to kill with anything other than the chainsword.

[Denzark]

@ Dark Templar - don't know but I could only work the bolter so had to go for the Hollywood spray (aka Belfast Unload)

As to Spartans versus Space Marines - I admit I don't know much about them. But having gone to the bible aka wikipedia, I can't find anything that lets me think they could win against an 8' tall, acid spitting, bullet proof fused rib cage, 2-heart 3 lung, instant blood clotting, 600 years in self suspended animation, never off balance, can secrete an oily substance to give minor resistance to hard vacuum, can eat organic matter and get an idea of its plans (eat the brain drive an Emperor titan with no training) track by taste, Imperial Space Marine.

And that's without his power armour.

As for cooler and suspension of disbelief, I go to 40K for escapism, not any reality so I don't particularly care that the fluff seems 'tighter' - most Game/film tie-in novels etc are usually on a par with the worst Black Library sh*te anyway.

All in all and to sum up, I expect the average SM out of scout training would tear the head off Master Chief with one hand and plop down his neck, whilst reading the Financial Times with the other and composing a death haiku at the same time in his head - Master Chief is a navy rank so no matter what he is clearly a jumped up sailor boy fish-head who might be handy in a bar fight but would get proper spanked by the Emperor's Finest...

[Old_Paladin]

I'm with Denzark on this one; an Astartes Battle brother would kick the snot out of a Spartan.
Even as strong, fast and tough a Spartan is, Marines are better.
And then when you look at equipment, it becomes a joke. A contemporary rifle vs. an 18mm, automatic multi-stage, mass reactive rpg? Pistol whips and riflebutts vs. powerswords, powerfists and thunderhammers?

That aside, this was a really fun minigame.
Current best... 1016 kills (getting better).

[DarkLink]

As to Spartans versus Space Marines - I admit I don't know much about them. But having gone to the bible aka wikipedia, I can't find anything that lets me think they could win against an 8' tall, acid spitting, bullet proof fused rib cage, 2-heart 3 lung, instant blood clotting, 600 years in self suspended animation, never off balance, can secrete an oily substance to give minor resistance to hard vacuum, can eat organic matter and get an idea of its plans (eat the brain drive an Emperor titan with no training) track by taste, Imperial Space Marine.


Well, Spartans are 8' tall and have very similar muscular, reflexive and sensory enhancements as SMs. SM acid isn't really a combat weapon, Spartan bones are similarly reinforced, no extra lungs but the MJOLNR suits have similar built in instant wound sealant systems. The only thing of real significance here is the fact that SMs can indeed live for hundreds of years, while the Master Chief is in his 40s, iirc.

Plus, the whole "minor resistance to hard vacuum" is kinda a misdirect anyways. Getting sucked into a vacuum doesn't work the way most people think it does.

And SM Scouts don't have a third of the experience of the MC. The biggest advantage Marines have over Spartans is the potential for centuries of experience. A SM Scout doesn't have that. The Scout would never see the Spartan coming.


So I'd say it's probably more appropriate to say that a Chapter Master would beat a Spartan, but with an average Marine it would be a pretty fair fight.



I will also point out that Brutes and Elites are both significantly larger and stronger than Spartans, particularly Brutes. Yet the MC doesn't seem to have much of a problem taking them down head on.

[ZenPaladin]

The bigest edge the Spartan's have over the Marines is in reaction times and armor. The Spartan's have undergone.. um..

Superconducting Fibrification of Neural DendritesDescription: Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.
Risk(s): Significant instances of Parkinson's Disease and Fletcher's Syndrome.

And then... The Armor enhances that as well.

Reactive Metal Liquid Crystal Layer: Liquid crystal forms the inner structure of the suit. This reactive metal increases the strength, reaction time, mobility, speed, and all around physical performance of the SPARTAN-II. The suit's artificial intelligence is supported by this layer of crystal, knitted together at a molecular level and fitted in between the outer plates and the inner padding. This type of computer memory is usually outfitted on a starship and as such this layer accounts for over eighty percent of the MJOLNIR armors cost of construction and materials.

So the Marine would be moving in close to slow motion or at least at what we would consider normal speed.

Then there's the recharging energy shield...

Though as the above poster said. When you start to get 100's of years of combat experance the field evens considerably. Veteran Marines, Captains and Chapter Masters get a lot more skilled than the Spartan's who have only trained since about age 8 or so.

Also Melta's I mean that's a damn killy gun.

[Sangre]

You're all getting this so wrong.

The Marine would win because he is a vessel of the Emperor. And the Emperor protects. With the Emperor as his ally no Space Marine can ever fall in battle.

[MVBrandt]

Unless he rolls a 1 or a 2.

Spartans win b/c they push buttons instead of rolling dice.

[Akimbo Lizard]

Well, I didn't read the books but a Spartan can absorb a tank shot to the face, they way 1,000 pounds and are, well super-humans but think about it, the the WARHAMMER books a single un-armored marine can destroy a whole city block... hmmm, " Deadliest Warrior " season 2 anyone xD

[Rapture]

Kind of hard to accurately fight two fictional character, but that is ok.

I just dont see how a spartan could even hope to damage a space marine. Sure the spartan has whatever the other guy said (super reflexes?), but that doesn't mean he can punch through power armor. I don't think a spartan's guns would be of any use either. Marine armor is like a tank. A spartan couldn't exactly "4-shot" him.

[MVBrandt]

I swear everyone presumes a SPARTAN is going to run at the marine with fists and an assault rifle. The anti-personnel weaponry available in HALO is pretty intense ... plasma rifles anyone ...

[Old_Paladin]

I swear everyone presumes a SPARTAN is going to run at the marine with fists and an assault rifle. The anti-personnel weaponry available in HALO is pretty intense ... plasma rifles anyone ...

We're assuming that each combatant is going to have somewhat the standard armourment of their respective armies.
The UNSC uses 3 types of battle rifle, a caseless SMG, a shotgun and heavy sniper rifle.
A Space marine comes with a Bolter (which is as affectve as a conventional anti-material autocannon; ie. 20-35mm rifles and tankguns), a pistol sized version of said weapon and either a chainsaw or laser edged, titanium machette!

If we're going to get into using war loot, then how would a Spartan with Plasma Rifles do against and Ordo Xeno's Kill team vetern with a Gauss Flayer?!


Also, plasma weapons in 40K are better. You can cause heavy damage to a medium battle tank with 40K plasma.

[ZenPaladin]

Yeah when I was doing my mental match up's I was considering you average Tac Marine with Bolter, Knife, Frag and Krak vs your Average Spartan with Battle-rifle/Assault-rifle, frag and knife in some sort of cover filled arena.

Have to admit the gun advantage goes squarly to the marine. Also have to admit that it would take a lot of pepper or some good grenade/hand to hand action to drop the Marine who's armor is dead ard.

[Sangre]

The Marine's shots will be guided by the Emperor. His hatred is his sword and his faith is his armour.

[Madness]

I checked the stats of the Mjolnir armor and the spartan project enhancements on wikia, turns out that the materials used to make the armor are closer to tau fire warrior armor/small suits (Xv-25 at best, without the stealthiness) than they are to power armor (or even terminator armor).

Also the Spartan project enhancements sound way less intrusive and conservative when compared to the marines, specially on the psychological front.

But somehow the results of those improvements is incredibly effective (see http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Augmentation_Procedures#Results), stuff like running 100kph is pretty insane.

I'm still unsure how a 10 men squad of spartans would be able to manage an eldar threat (for instance, I'm thinking about the DoW2 intro) compared to a marine squad.

[fuzzbuket]

The Marine's shots will be guided by the Emperor. His hatred is his sword and his faith is his armour.

and the spartans have (beware this is not me ) A ZIILLION_TWILLION-GAZILLION UBER ELLIETZZZ WARrIORS WITH TE XXXXXXBOxxX@SSSS OF POWAH AND LARPPPP

or in my language

a million xbox fanboys:p


-fuzz

[DarkLink]

Kind of hard to accurately fight two fictional character, but that is ok.

I just dont see how a spartan could even hope to damage a space marine. Sure the spartan has whatever the other guy said (super reflexes?), but that doesn't mean he can punch through power armor. I don't think a spartan's guns would be of any use either. Marine armor is like a tank. A spartan couldn't exactly "4-shot" him.

A knife in the armor slit works perfectly well. Check out the new Halo Reach video documentary on Bungie's website and you'll see an example:D


Looking at the Spartan augmentations, it seems that the Spartans are actually stronger than Space Marines. I've heard that Space Marines gain about a 250% increase in strength through their modifications, while Spartans get around a 300% increase. And then, of course, Spartans are significantly faster, both in physical speed and in reflexes.

Additionally, Space Marine power armor doesn't offer too much of an increase in strength, if one goes by Dark Heresy books. I don't recall what strength bonuses SM armor has off the top of my head, but it was less than 100% of a Space Marine's basic strength. On the other hand, MJOLNIR armor increases the strength of the wearer so much that an unaugmented human will shatter their own bones. That's a huge increase in strength.

Plus, SM armor is bulky and constricting. It slows the user down, in exchange for protection. MJOLNIR armor does the exact opposite.

So after looking over all this, it seems to me that a Spartan is much faster and stronger than a Space Marine, and even more so while wearing armor. Space Marines are physically a little more resilient thanks to redundant organs and the like, but I don't think it would be too huge of a difference. In terms of armor protection, the Spartan has shields while the Space Marine has better armor plating. It's hard to say for certain how they compare, but I will say the Spartan is more resilient to small arms fire as the shields have absolutely no gaps and are rechargeable, while the Space Marine potentially has better protection against things that can punch through the MJOLNIR shields. Maybe. Real hard to say.

So far, from a purely physical standpoint, and only considering armor, Spartans win.

[entendre_entendre]

I'm going to compare a Spartan (not MC as he's an individual) and a standard Tactical Marine.

BEWARE: PROJECT-LIKE LENGTH! (I'm such a nerd :o )

Physical Capabilities:

Strength/Endurance
Both the Spartan and the SM have similar effects in their physical alterations. They both have enhanced strength & endurance.
For argumentative/fluff purposes, I'm rating these as equal.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 1

Durability/Resilience
The SM have ceramic materials biologically/genetically strengthening their bones while the spartans have metal grafted to their skeletons iirc. Durability of bones of both are roughly equal for the purposes of a one time encounter (the SM's bones could heal themselves in time much more easily than a spartans, but the time required would be far too large for a single battle). Now while their bones are roughly the same in terms of durability, the SM has an enlarged ribcage than is one solid mass than would be far more protective than the regular humans (i.e. a Spartans).

The SM also has a far greater resilience to damage in terms of organs. The SM has multiple redundant organs making a kill by destroying said organs mush more unlikely. When one factors in the poison/radiation resistance/immunity, the SM pulls far ahead. Point SM.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 2

Reflexes/Speed
Both warriors have enhanced senses and reflexes. The Halo Universe (HU) is very specific about how much faster the Spartan is (~300% faster reflexively), while 40k is more vague. A Spartan can run very fast if necessary, while I can find no direct references to SM's running at equivalent speeds. Point Spartan.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 2

Firearms:

Standard Equipment
No contest, SM wins in standard armament. .75 amour-piercing mini rocket fired in four round bursts is far superior to a standard assault rifle. There is the whole "dodge the rocket" thing, but it's somewhat unlikely (even in the book, MC still gets messed up by the missile anyways). Bolter > Battle rifle any day.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 3

Special Equipment
This gets interesting as this category includes Covenant weapons and the Plasma weapon/Power Armour interaction. From what I can gather, the plasma weaponry employed by the covenant is similar to that of the Tau (i.e. strong, but not good AP). The average plasma rifle of the Covenant would bother a SM about as much as a Tau Pulse Rifle, so not too much. Now the Fuel Rod gun (the big covenant Brute gun) or the Spartan laser my give the SM a little pause. These heavier weapons are much stronger and actually allow a one shot kill more easily than other weapons. Rough 40k equivalent = rail rifle.

While the Spartan gets access to Covenant plasma weapons, the SM gets to use special/heavy weapons. The Plasma gun in 40k is far deadlier than any CPW, as it hits with the effect of a small star (3rd ed. MRB). This would take a Spartan's shields down in one hit or kill instantly with a single shot. However, 40k plasma is far deadlier to the user as a mis-fire could kill the firer. Temperamental weapons also don't take well to damage, and if the gun itself became damaged, well, let's say the marine would probably fit in a bucket. Plasma is a wild card, as deadly to the wielder as it is to the target. Melta weaponry on the other hand is where the deadliness is supreme. A single melta blast could vaporize a Spartan in a single blast shield or not (unless we're saying the shield is somehow stronger than tank armour, which would be very hard to back up). Even a glancing blow could be fatal as the heat generated could conceivably fry the Spartan inside their armour (depending on shield strength/lore though).

40k heavy weapons are nasty for the Spartan. Most are just super-sized versions of special weapons (PC, MM, HB, etc.), but there is one that is a real killer: the Lascannon. Let's put it this way: if a Spartan cannot take a Spartan laser to the face, there is not way in hell they could take a lascannon to the chest. Point SM.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 4

Melee:

Unarmed
Spartan Speed vs. Space Marine might. Time and time again, speed wins. Point Spartan.
Spartan: 3 Space Marine: 4

Armed
Energy Sword vs. Power Weapon. These weapons seems to do the same thing, so IMO energy sword = power weapon

Titan Hammer (if that's what it's called?) vs. Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer wins due to effect of smashing opponent with energy blast. A spartan hit with one of these = a sludgy greenish-pink paste. SM hit with hammer = pissed marine.

The SM has other toys of CC malice that outclass spartans (Lightning Claws & Power Fists come to mind). Point SM

Spartan: 3 Space Marine: 5

(here's the one everyone's always discussing)
Armour

Protection
Let's start with the SM as they're pretty straight forward. Super compound metal-ceramic compound directly protects against projectiles/pointy things, etc. The armour is air tight and covers ~95% of the body in armour, with exposed areas in the joints and eyes. Auto kill vs armour: anti-tank missile or weapon of equivalent damage.

Now for the Spartan and their MJOLNIR (sp?) armour. I'm starting with the physical armour. The armoured plates are bullet proof and allow a great range of movement. The plates cover ~65% of the body with bullet resistant material covering the rest along with a large face plate. Versus just the base armour, a bolter shell should have no problem damaging the armour. I guess the most direct 40k comparison with the base MJOLNIR armour would be carapace armour. The armour may hold to one or two shots, but beyond that, it's all up to fate.

Now for the most important part of the Spartan's defenses: the regenerating shield. Exactly how much damage the shield can resist is up for debate, but using a rough judgment of the books & games, the shield might hold up to a full four round bolter burst. Might. After the shield is gone, the Spartan is extremely vulnerable.

Although the shield may not hold up to much direct stress, the shield has the advantage in the long run as it can regenerate. While the SM's armour will continuously take damage over time, the Spartan's shield will regenerate, meaning the SM will have to kill them quickly before the Spartan can go hide and wait for their shield to return.

As for a final verdict, the SM has greater overall protection, and the Spartan has greater protection over time (assuming they're not vapourized at some point). I rank them equal.

Spartan: 4 Space Marine: 6

Additional Armour Ablities
This includes the on board AI for the Spartans*. The AI would be much more useful than any machine spirit the SM has, as the AI could actively assist the Spartan (trajectories, calculations, etc.) while doing all the things the MS can do (dispensing pain killers for example). Point Spartans.

Spartan: 5 Space Marine: 6

* iirc, Master Chief was the only Spartan to receive an AI due to a lack of AI's. I'm including it here in a sense of optimum conditions.

The reaction enhancing gel of the MJOLNIR suits would be comparable to the black carapace of the SM. Tie in this category.

Spartan: 6 Space Marine: 7


Overall Winner:

SPACE MARINE

In 40k context, the Spartans are somewhat comparable to the power armoured humans of the Auerian Technocracy of the HH books (False Gods I think). They're close, but Space Marines are still better warriors. Besides, as it has already been said, HU is more realistic, while 40k is pure sci-fi escapism fantasy.

Whew, that was quite a project. :eek: I think I'm going to go to sleep now... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Madness]

Nice list double entendre, you skipped the morale part, is it just my opinion that without the mental conditioning a spartan soldier would break morale far easier? Consider that while halo aliens might be nasty, they are no match for nurgle.

[Cryl]

Spartans will be more capable of adapting than marines though. The advantages the Astartes gain from being genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated killing machines also limit them to thinking about combat in certain ways, mostly those dictated by the codex astartes, divergent chapters aside of course. Plus they're more likely to adopt less 'honourable' tactics than marines.

Also I'm pretty sure then energy shields on the MJOLNIR armour that the spartans have would be a distinct advantage over the regular powered armour that marines have... I'm assuming that the MJOLNIR shell under the shield is pretty much equivalent to astartes battle plate though

The Halo universe is fantastic but owes more a little to Iain M Banks Culture novels for the base which is probably why it's so fantastic tbh

[Madness]

Yup, because marines always play it nice, ask Lukas the Trickster about it.

It really all depends on how strong Spartan's shiled is and how fast they are, their equipment is surely bound to have a hard time penetrating power armor, that's for sure. But if the game is any indication, spartans in a 40k enviroment would have a really tough time surviving. The imperium on the other hand would have gone exterminatus and called it a day.

[Cryl]

Yup, because marines always play it nice, ask Lukas the Trickster about it.

It really all depends on how strong Spartan's shiled is and how fast they are, their equipment is surely bound to have a hard time penetrating power armor, that's for sure. But if the game is any indication, spartans in a 40k enviroment would have a really tough time surviving. The imperium on the other hand would have gone exterminatus and called it a day.

I did say mostly, most chapters would follow the codex and hence mostly play nicely.

And we're all assuming that the weapons would have a hard time penetrating power armour, spartans are seen taking down covenant elites and various other armoured enemies using low powered (relative to bolters) weaponary.

Also something that no one has mentioned yet is the ability to link an AI into the MJOLNIR suit. A real AI, the kind that the Imperium doesn't have and could never understand. Course then there's librarians, that brings something else to the party and probably a party that I don't want to be at...

[ZenPaladin]

EDIT: @ entrande

Ooh! Well thought out and well written!

The only points I would argue is that Space Marines while having the nice I of 4 have no specific reaction enhancing modifications at all. None of the Space Marines organs are described as having any effect on reaction or movement speeds. Thus I would rate the Marines reflexes as the sole result of being highly trained combat bad-*****.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe there are models in the guard who also have I4. Thus I would say the Spartans with both cybernetic upgrades + Additional reaction enhancments in the armor + potential additional reaction enhancements from AI support are significantly faster than the Marine.

This slews the fight quite a bit. That additional speed allows them to shoot first. Dodge better, run faster and generaly get a lot more mileage out of the regenerating shield. Which only takes a few seconds to half a minute to recharge. Now in wide open territory that's not really that great but in any sort of battle field in cover it means that the Spartan can Fire and cover and absorb incidental or even direct fire for several seconds repeatedly.

I'd also say that in a standard Marine vs standard Spartan fight things like resistance to poison are not that viable as points. Though I will say that over all the Marine has superior durability and versatility as a combatant.

I'll agree that things like Melta are more powerful than most if not all light Spartan weapons. Though I think your underestimating the Gravity Hammer quite a bit. A direct blow from it is instantly fatal to a Spartan and can fling cars around like they were paperweights. It also has an area effect blast from a swing. Still I don't think its realistic to assume that the Spartans would use Covenant Tech. I'd also not normally allow the Marine access to the full armory.

If the Marine gets things like Termie armor and Iron Halo's and such well. The odds then are squarely in the Marines favor. Melta's touch and go. Its short range could be a problem. And as you said plasma while powerful is potentially deadly to the weilder.

Anyway thanks for rising to my geeky challenge. The thought of the two super soldiers meeting is a fun mental exercise for me. Hell if the two titans of humanity did meet. They would probably be more likely to join forces and kick some Xeno's butt! At least till the Marine learned that the Spartan was an athiest...

PS: Powered Armor for Marines while not enhancing in physical attributes, has medical ability and also allows the Marine to move exactly as if he was unarmored. It is in no way bulky or slowing. Marines are often times more comfortable and dexterous in the armor than out of it!

[ZenPaladin]

Here's how I would stat a Spartan in 40K for those curious..

WS4, BS4, S4, T4, I5, LD10, SV3+/4++

Battle Rifle
S3, AP5, Range 24 Rapid Fire

Assault Rifle
S3, AP5, Range 18 Assault 2

Shotgun
S4, AP5, Range 12 Assault 2

Rocket Launcher
S7, AP3, Range 36 Heavy 1, Blast

SMG
S3, AP5, Range 12 Assault 3

[Madness]

WS4 is fine, he's quick, altough not specifically trained for hand to hand
BS4 acceptable if a little high (compare to Tau)
S/T 4 is fine, I wouldn't go past 2 W/A even for heroic figures tho (they are hard but not THAT hard, and they lack centuries of training in hth)
Ld 10 is WAY too high, you seriously think a random spartan II is braver than your average marine/commissar/any other zealot? I'd say 8 is fine.
Save, either 4+/5++ or 3+ the shield does deplete after all.

Rocket launcher I'd use the normal krak/frag stats as a blast at S7 means that it delivers a S7 hit to everything under the template, letting it pick high strength OR good strength+template emulates better the "strong at the center, weak at the side" effect.

[Old_Paladin]

Here's how I would stat a Spartan in 40K for those curious..

WS4, BS4, S4, T4, I5, LD10, SV3+/4++

There is no way they are that armoured.
A Spartan would either have a 4+/5++; or 4+ and FNP.

The shield units seem to be closer to IG refractor fields then an Iron Halo/Rosarius. FNP seems even closer as it can give protection, but can also be totally shutdown by some overwhelming attacks.
And it's already been said. The ballistic armour is just a titanium plate over a crystal weave (like Tau firecaste combat armour); nowhere close to the protection of Power armour.

As to the issue of Astartes training and combat doctrine; the Codex Astartes covers nearly all battlefield rolls possible. As a scout, the Astartes are trained in nearly any combat environment imaginable; by the time they are a battle-brother they have been in over a hundred missions.
A Space marine's indoctrination is all about tactical fluidity and ability to adapt to situations, including ambushes, traps and "fighting dirty." They aren't mindless toy soldiers (even if some of the stories are poorly written). They might be trained to follow orders without question, but they are also trained to be able to think on their own, and even lead, if their commanders are killed or injured.

[ZenPaladin]

Well we are kind of limited by the 40K system of simplicity for a lot of things. For example the Marine is defenatly tougher than the Spartan but the Spartan is defenatly toughter than a guardsman. Armor is another issue. The Powered Armor defenatly provides better protection than the unshielded Mjolnir. But I believe that with the shields the Mjolnir defenatly provides better protection than the Power Armor. Not nessicisarly better than Artificer though. Potentialy equivilant I would say.

Maybe 3+/FNP? Maybe flat 2+? Both show better that the system can be compromised by anti-tank weapondry. 4+ seems wrong to me. It's not the same as Marine Powered armor but its not carapace either. Its full body, sealed and has medical systems. And to be honest in the Abnet books I've read 40K energy fields don't last against anti-tank weapondry either. 40K's representation of energy shielding is normaly an invulnerable of some sort so maybe 5++ is better?

As for LD I don't in anyway believe the Spartan's are braver than the Marines. The Marine's recive psycho-surgery and other such things so that they litteraly know no fear. Honestly the Marine LD of 8 is stupid. ATSKNF is their responce to beef it up. But there's no way a Guard sgt has the courage of a Marine. I figured a flat 10 would be a good balance. Not unbreakable by any means but as couragous as a man can be. Maybe 8 and stubborn? But I'm trying to give a good generic and blanaced stat line.

Stupid me for forgetting A and W. Which should honestly both be 1 in my opinion. They simply arn't better than Marines there. Hero's like the Chief and squad leaders might get higher but these are the scut level Super Human soliders.

And yeah normal Frag/Krak launchers could be acceptable. But Spartan Launchers only have one type of shell.

Also!

Spartan Laser!
S8 AP2 Range 48, Heavy 1

Oh! And agreed my Paladin Brother on the Codex. Marines are combat savant's. One of the reasons orders wouldn't work for them is that they are each one man armies. Trained in a crazy number of disciplines and weapons. They live and breath battle and are more than capable of making great combat decisions and adapting on the fly.

[Madness]

Energy shields in 40k are various in nature, the one featured most often is the refractor shield that transforms kinetic energy into light energy, but it really depends, there's displacer fields, there's straight out dome fields (Azrael's).

4+ FNP is really a lot and I think it would fit, compare it to other type of armor in 40k and you'll see that unshielded Mjolnir is fine at 4+, with FNP representing a mix of shield/biofoam. We're close to what a nurgle marked stormtrooper would be able to withstand, which is a LOT.

Again, Ld 9 is an IG company commander, a veteran of MANY battles, saying that a spartan freshman can top that is way too much. I honestly don't see how they are better than your average guardsman (or even veteran) but I'm willing to concede, so, 8 (IG sergeant). Consider that it's better than what Marbo gets and it's on par on some of the IG special chars.

[ZenPaladin]

Ah Displacer fields... I remeber the good old days when your modles litteraly moved after absorbing hits..

4+/FNP seems a bit off to me but I'll conced that it does represent the ability to take quite a bit of punishment. It could work.

The LD issue? Well... I guess we could go 8. It feels low since the Spartan's are indoctinated with duty and loyalty from early childhood. Its not unlike the Schola that the Commisar's train in. Commisars are what 10 and stuborn? 8?

Id say Spartan's are at least their equivilant.

Unfortunaly there realy are not any Spartan Freshmen. One batch of Spartan 2's were created and that's all there will ever be! You could take the Spartan's at an earlier time in their carrer. Say when they got their first version's of their armor. Then they would have no shields and probibly lower leadership. I'm really considering them from the game's region of time.

[Tynskel]

Hah!

Spartans and Marines...

Spartans 1) have no fear 2) have the armor of the Gods.

People are saying the technology of a Space Marine is more advanced. If you look at the fluff in the Halo Universe, the technology of the Spartans is 100,000 perhaps millions of years old. Humans are just 'rediscovering' the tech.

Why are Spartans so tough? Not only have they gone through the Genetic modification that Space Marines do, they have metal grafted bones and cybernetics systems built throughout their body. Space Marines have some implants, but not on the scale of a Spartan. The armor they wear is much more integrated than the Battlesuit tech of the Tau. Then throw in the AI tech, which is MUCH better than the Tau AI. Cortana, a hacker based AI, with the crappy Human capital ship technology can wipe out numerous Covenant capital ships. This is not a combat AI!

The only thing the Spartans don't have is the weapons. However, placed into the 40k universe, the Spartan will be quick to gain access to those weapons- just like they steal them from the Covenant.

There is one thing that Space Marines have over Spartans- experience. The standard Marine is probably no match for a Spartan, but a space Marine hero, like a Captain or Chaplain, has many many more years, hundreds, of experience than a Spartan has. Experience goes a loooooonnnng way. That experience is what keeps those Space Marine heros alive!

Spartan stat line
WS 6, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 5, A 3, Ld 10 3+/4+
Special Rules: Feel No Pain, Fearless, Counter Attack, Furious Charge
They are better at Hand 2 Hand than Elites- which the Elites spend their ENTIRE lives training to do. They are better shooters than everyone. They are stronger than a Marine. Their constitution is harder. They can take wounds and keep running. Lighting reflexes. Strong resolve. Their armor is completely tailored to them. They will snap a Brute's back in close combat. And, if you were to rush them, in an instant they have destroyed their opponent.

Think of another way to put it.

1 single Spartan took on an entire armada, and won. Most of the time, by himself (with the aid of an AI).

What makes Space Marines amazing is their cohesive unit ability. Spartans have that too.

There are also more than a Million Space Marines. As opposed to a few hundred Spartans.

Oh, and NOTHING will beat the 40k universe Space Combat. If you have ever played Battle Fleet Gothic, you know that the scale of combat is beyond ANY other universe. The average 'Frigate' is the size of a Star Destroyer, and its range of weapons is well beyond any ship in comparison!

That's my two cents.

[Cryl]

Oh, and NOTHING will beat the 40k universe Space Combat. If you have ever played Battle Fleet Gothic, you know that the scale of combat is beyond ANY other universe. The average 'Frigate' is the size of a Star Destroyer, and its range of weapons is well beyond any ship in comparison!

That's my two cents.

Actually I've got to disagree with this. Granted in the Halo universe the UNSC ships are inferior to the Covenant ships in almost everyway but compared to Imperial tech the simple fact is that the AI that controls even the most basic UNSC ship is far superior to anything the Mechanicum can still make or that is deployed on Imperial Navy vessels. That gives them a fighting chance imo.

[Tynskel]

True, the AI is better. But it doesn't mean SquaT! :)

The range, size, and rate of fire of a Human Battle Cruiser just does not compare in the scale of the 40k Universe. Just the range of engagement in 40k is larger than ANY other game system. One Space Marine cruiser has the firepower to Nuke an entire planet. It takes an entire fleet of Covenant ships to lay waste to a planet.

The only thing that could possibly come close in the Halo universe was the Gravemind vs the Galaxy fleet engagement the first time the Rings were activated. Even then, the engagement was up close.

[The Hivemind]

Tynskel. You realise all that hard, killing machine trained for all their lives stuff is what the space marines SHOULD be like. If they made space marine rules like space marine fluff then we would just be using movie marine rules. Spartans in 40k wouldn't be anywhere near that tough.

[ZenPaladin]

Tynskel I think you are dramaticly over-estimating the Spartans.

In the first book John's first time in hand to hand with an Elite he has a hard fought grapeling match with the guy.

The tech the Covenent uses is from what I understand based off of old Forerunner tech and the Spartan's shields are based off that. John's armor baring the shielding systems is standard human's of the future stuff. As an example. In the first game Guilty Spark says that John should upgrade to at least a class 12, I think combat skin. His curent is only a 6 or 7 I believe.

That easily tells us that Forerunner combat tech is vastly superior to Mjolnir Armor.

And the Marines have multiple redundant organs and nigh unto instant clotting blood. Plus the combat drugs inside their armor. Those guys can take some hits. Also as pointed out the average Spartan doesn't have an AI back up. They are to rare and expensive to outfit every Spartan with. And heck there were only around 27 graduates of the progam.

[Madness]

Hah!

Spartans and Marines...

Spartans 1) have no fear 2) have the armor of the Gods.

Source?


People are saying the technology of a Space Marine is more advanced. If you look at the fluff in the Halo Universe, the technology of the Spartans is 100,000 perhaps millions of years old. Humans are just 'rediscovering' the tech.
Dark age of technology, same thing.



Why are Spartans so tough? Not only have they gone through the Genetic modification that Space Marines do, they have metal grafted bones and cybernetics systems built throughout their body.

Marines also receive a similar treatment but to a larger extent, they even go as far as merging the ribcage into a solid plaque.


Space Marines have some implants, but not on the scale of a Spartan.
False, two hearts just to mention one off the top of my head.


The armor they wear is much more integrated than the Battlesuit tech of the Tau. Then throw in the AI tech, which is MUCH better than the Tau AI. Cortana, a hacker based AI, with the crappy Human capital ship technology can wipe out numerous Covenant capital ships. This is not a combat AI!
Cortana is one instance of, and it was on a heroic unit, if we have to compare Master Chief, we have to pit it against Mephiston-sized guys, I weep for the dude.


The only thing the Spartans don't have is the weapons. However, placed into the 40k universe, the Spartan will be quick to gain access to those weapons- just like they steal them from the Covenant.
Getting a weapon is not the same as maintaining it, or even producing, in a large scale conflict you need to come up with your stuff, stealing is not an option, even ork lootas graft stuff they did along with what they scavenge.


There is one thing that Space Marines have over Spartans- experience. The standard Marine is probably no match for a Spartan, but a space Marine hero, like a Captain or Chaplain, has many many more years, hundreds, of experience than a Spartan has. Experience goes a loooooonnnng way. That experience is what keeps those Space Marine heros alive!

Spartan stat line
WS 6, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 5, A 3, Ld 10 3+/4+
Special Rules: Feel No Pain, Fearless, Counter Attack, Furious Charge
That's an insane statline. Not to mention the hth skills that are totally unjustified.

They are better at Hand 2 Hand than Elites- which the Elites spend their ENTIRE lives training to do.
So they can fight a, elite fighter, which is basically a stormtrooper (ws 3), I'd say WS4 is ok, the rest is S+T based(for which 4 is more than enough, I don't want to see them arm-wrestling daemons).

They are better shooters than everyone. They are stronger than a Marine. Their constitution is harder. They can take wounds and keep running. Lighting reflexes. Strong resolve. Their armor is completely tailored to them. They will snap a Brute's back in close combat. And, if you were to rush them, in an instant they have destroyed their opponent.

Think of another way to put it.
I think that's a little excessive.


1 single Spartan took on an entire armada, and won. Most of the time, by himself (with the aid of an AI).We've seen that story on the marine perspective many times.


What makes Space Marines amazing is their cohesive unit ability. Spartans have that too. And the fact that they train a year's worth of training in a couple of months, they have extensive longevity, they endure extreme enhancements and indoctrination, they have access to tremendously strong equipment, etc. etc. etc.


There are also more than a Million Space Marines. As opposed to a few hundred Spartans.

Oh, and NOTHING will beat the 40k universe Space Combat. If you have ever played Battle Fleet Gothic, you know that the scale of combat is beyond ANY other universe. The average 'Frigate' is the size of a Star Destroyer, and its range of weapons is well beyond any ship in comparison!

That's my two cents.

[Old_Paladin]

Hah!

Spartans and Marines...

Woah!
Look out everybody, we have a fanboy!
Hit the dirt... we've got INCOMING!!!
Just joking around.

That's the problem with any FPS game as a guideline to reality. It's always one person vs. the universe.
Going by what the Master Chief did, he seems unstoppable.
If that's what we're going to go on, then look at the old play station game "Fire Warrior." If we use that as a model, then front line Firecaste warriors are the best fighters ever. A single Tau is able to kill a greater daemon!

[Tynskel]

Here comes the Fanboy.

As for the 'Dark Age Tech, same thing comment' Even at the height of the Humanity the technology did not compare to the level of technology the Eldar currently have. The Jjarro/Forerunners have 'blink of the eye', you don't exist, technology. They trapped Star Gods in their Stars- the Imperium cannot do that, and neither can the Eldar.

I have been playing 40k and Halo for about the same amount of time ~15-20 years.

Oh yeah, Halo used to be called Marathon... The armor that a Spartan wears is the Armor of the Gods. It was developed by the Jjarro/Forerunners, and is godlike in its capability. You are the Hammer of Thor- that's what the word Mjolnir means. You are wearing Mark V and VI in the Halo series, and in Marathon you wore Mark IV. The Mark IV battleroids are superior to space marines in every fashion. They even have the ability to fold time and Space (Marathon Infinity). They obey commands to the letter, and do whatever it takes to get the job done. No thought to their own safety- just play the games, you'll notice that the Computers ask you to do something and you ALWAYS do it- not a question of if, but when. The only thing the Mark IV did not have was the ability to self regenerate their shield systems, which was fixed in the Mark V. The Battleroids did not wear armor at all, and perfectly meshed into society- they would smash a Space Marine apart. The UESC Marathon had ~12 Battleroids. 1 onboard the Marathon, the rest on the colony of Tau Ceti. The Battleroid of Marathon defeated the Pfhor singlehandedly, and helped take over the Dreadnought that the AI Durandal then teleported to. The single Battleroid almost wrecked the entire ship by itself! You take on Battle suits and Dreadnoughts- sometimes 20-50 at a time. Space Marines don't do this! The battleroid would go on to Defeat a Star God (Marathon Infinity)! By itself. I think Calgar might be the ONLY Space Marine hero that could possibly defeat one of the Star Gods in single combat. And that's the weaker of the Star Gods in Close combat.

Spartans have no fear: At not one point when fighting the covenant or flood does John 117 even think about being scared. He is more concerned with if he's even capable of doing what he is doing.

As for the Skills: Spartans are well known for having their bodies completely destroyed, yet continue to fight (read the books) Feel No Pain. Pardon me, but an Elite is at least on par with a Space Marine in close combat. They aren't 'Storm Troopers'- that's the Jackels/Skirmishers and the Special Forces Grunts. Brutes are the size of Ogryns, and are just as strong. Yet, the Spartans can kill them in one blow. I don't know of a single space marine that can be surrounded by 20 Ogryns and be able to kill them all in seconds, in hand to hand. But, Spartans can do it in the blink of an eye: Hence Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Fearless.


Hahah! I am such a silly Fanboy- arguing over whether a Spartan or Space Marine is better...

[Duke]

Yea that is a huge problem... You can't just base things off a FPS. What would a Gears of War guy be like then? lmao! Or in that, lets look at DOW 2. They defeated an Ork WAAAGH, and Eldar Craftworld, a Hive Fleet and A Chaos Incursion... All of which are like a Covenet armada in their own right.

If we are going to compare directly, then the books are the way to go mostly.

Duke

[Tynskel]

You can base it off a FPS. Look at Firewarrior. Look at How Bad @$$ the Chapter Approved Firewarrior character Kais was. If that's anything representative of what a character from the video game is, then my statline n' special rules for my 'Spartan' is not unrealistic. John 117 takes on tougher opponents, in larger numbers.

Kais
BS 5, pick any 2 weapons (both Tau and Imperium lists), 4+ invul, WS 4 (I believe). Independent Character, on foot.
He's totally what he was in the game!

[ZenPaladin]

While Marathon and Halo are thematicly related and made by the same company they are not the same game or in the same universe.

The Battleroid's are not the same as the Spartan-II's but hey if video games can be taken litteraly? On the first Halo you can shoot Cpt Keyes in the start of the first game. Then invulnerable marines will swarm you and kill you.

Didn't know that the humans kept a secret stash of invulnerable marines who can kill Spartans did you?;)

[Madness]

As for the 'Dark Age Tech, same thing comment' Even at the height of the Humanity the technology did not compare to the level of technology the Eldar currently have. The Jjarro/Forerunners have 'blink of the eye', you don't exist, technology. They trapped Star Gods in their Stars- the Imperium cannot do that, and neither can the Eldar.Not that we know what happened in the DAoT, they could have had titan guns in digital weapon form before AI went Dune.


I have been playing 40k and Halo for about the same amount of time ~15-20 years.

Oh yeah, Halo used to be called Marathon... *snip* Different games and different universes, 40k is not RT is not Laserburn. If we're allowed to go there the discussion is over.


Spartans have no fear: At not one point when fighting the covenant or flood does John 117 even think about being scared. He is more concerned with if he's even capable of doing what he is doing.You can't use him as a measure for any spartan. Also morale breaks for shock situations not for simple pressure by a mission that's coming along quite fine. Specialy if you have a tutor in cyberbabe form reassuring you that everything will be fine.


As for the Skills: Spartans are well known for having their bodies completely destroyed, yet continue to fight (read the books) Feel No Pain.Yup, picking up sentences from single books and not using the large consensus/picture is the way to go, ask C.S.Goto.

Pardon me, but an Elite is at least on par with a Space Marine in close combat. They aren't 'Storm Troopers'- that's the Jackels/Skirmishers and the Special Forces Grunts.Fine, so both spartans and Elite are WS4 S4 I4, should be enough.

Brutes are the size of Ogryns, and are just as strong. Yet, the Spartans can kill them in one blow.ALL the time (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)

I don't know of a single space marine that can be surrounded by 20 Ogryns and be able to kill them all in seconds, in hand to hand.Termies in Space Hulk enviroments, and genestealers are way more vicious in hth than Ogryns.

But, Spartans can do it in the blink of an eye: Hence Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Fearless.I doubt they seriously could. Again we're talking average Spartan.

[Sangre]

Why are Spartans so tough? Not only have they gone through the Genetic modification that Space Marines do, they have metal grafted bones and cybernetics systems built throughout their body. Space Marines have some implants, but not on the scale of a Spartan.

Holy the crappity crap.

I mean your whole post is just stupidly wrong but DAMN.

Space Marines undergo years of what is still fairly experimental therapy. They have two hearts. They have massive, fused bones, and a solid plate ribcage. They have massively enhanced musculature. They have massively more efficient blood transfer. Any wounds they suffer scar over instantly. They don't need to sleep. They can eat poisonous or indigestible foods without suffering. They can learn by eating. They can breathe in poisonous atmospheres and underwater. They can see in almost pitch-blackness as though it were daylight. They never get dizzy, never get motion sickness and can filter and enhance sounds at will. They can enter suspended animation voluntarily. They are radiation-proof. They are poison-proof. They can identify many chemicals and track targets by taste alone. Their sweat can repel the void. They can spit poison and chew through metal given enough time. Their armour is integrated into their nervous system. You lose. Good day sir.

[AirHorse]

This discussion is pretty entertaining, im liking it, especially how the abilities of both sides keep escalating. The sign of any good "who would win in a fight" contest. Brings me back to my days at school when my friend would ask me to think of someone who could beat gandalf in a fight every day :)

What i loved the most is that someone made a comment about halo being more realistic than 40k somewhere. Some how I dont think theres much of a precident for either universe being too real, unless wolverine is actually real and metal bone graphting is pretty straight forward after all or we just think our planet is "earth" but actually next week an explorator fleet is gonna turn up and welcome us back into the imperial fold before drafting half the population into the imperial guard to try and stop the tyranid menace :P.

ps my vote goes to the space marine!

[Tynskel]

Here we go again...

Fanboy ---da da dud da da duh dah! To the Rescue!

1. Overall- your counter arguments lead me to believe you have not done your homework. You do not contend my sections on the technology the Jjarro/Forerunners had. You asked me for my sources, and when I give them to you, you 'discount them as one sentence phrases' (which they are not). You also don't know what the W'rkncacnter (Star Gods) were. They are Full Fledge Chaos Gods. And not one of those pesky Lesser gods, known as Khorne, Tzeench, Slannesh (come on-a non-existent on an infinite time scale!), and Nurgle. The Star Gods in Marathon make Universes (plural) Disappear- the can operate in more than one universe at once! The Forunners/Jjarro controlled them.

2. Doesn't matter if the Dark Age of Technology had Titan Class Digital Weapons- The tech wasn't better than the Eldar. And the Forerunners/Jjarro had push a button and the Galaxy is gone. Don't forget that the Forerunners folded space and escaped the End of the Universe (Marathon, Marathon 2, Infinity, Halo 1-3), like Restaurant at the End of the Universe style.

3. Maybe you didn't read what I said... Elites are on par with Space Marines in close combat. Spartans crush Elites in Close Combat- therefore, Spartans crush Space Marines in close combat.

4. Funny you mention Cortana. Have you played any of the Marathon/Halo series? The AIs do nothing to 'reassure' you of your ability. In fact, they just make fun of your mistakes.

5. Terminators-- Remember my Experience thing? Yeah, you forgot. Those are Space Marine Heros. Spartans do not have the 100s of years of experience as the Space Marine Heros do. Terminators do not need WS5, they are armored with the best the Imperium can offer, and hundreds of years of experience. However, something to remember- the Battleroids are reincarnated soldiers (Marathon, Marathon 2, Infinity)- they fought for thousands, perhaps millions of years.

6. Oh wait.....

"Different games and different universes, 40k is not RT is not Laserburn. If we're allowed to go there the discussion is over."

I guess this mean this thread is done- we are comparing apples with oranges....

You are right- we cannot compare the universes. I forgot. The Star God in Marathon would have destroyed the Universe. And a (one) Battleroid stopped it. Case closed. Game Over. Space Marines cannot do that, have not done that, and will not do that. Nothing in 40k threatens the entire universe except for the Tyranids. And that's a large scale multi-organism beast that eats one galaxy at a time (well, we don't know that for sure)- not one single entity.

[Madness]

Marathon universe is not Halo universe.
I don't understand why you are treating them as one. I have no idea how you can assert the DAoT provided sub-eldar levels of technology (heck in ALL fronts?)
Spartans do not "crush" Elites in hth, they win, sometimes, specially if it's the superhero spartan vs puny Elites.
I did play Halo and Cortana was there, providing relevant insight, never in any moment did Master Chief fall in a situation where he had to "check for morale" and he's still not your average spartan.
YOU said "no marine ever did yadda yadda yadda" I just gave you a case in which they did, but I guess it's ok if we pick Master Chief as the average spartan but it's not when we pick a veteran marine as the average marine.

[Tynskel]

Hahahahah
"Marathon universe is not Halo universe. I don't understand why you are treating them as one."

Uh, yeah they are- the dates line up- the armor lines up.

By the way, you still haven't countered the advanced technology from Mark IV to Mark V-VI.

Someone was talking about fused rib cage of space marines- doesn't mean squat compared to and entire body of metal and cybernetic bones. The integration between Spartan Suit and user is flat out superior. The Technology is better than the Tau's capabilities.

You should check out: http://marathon.bungie.org/story/

Once again we shouldn't be comparing these two games... but we are...

Let me know the next time a Space Marine stops the End of the Universe, Escapes the End of another, and does it again, many many times. Then, I might START believing that a Space Marine is superior.

As for not needing to check moral... what about the 'Library'. No Cortana (Halo). Oh yeah, then there's Gravemind- "Relax, I'd rather not piss this thing off" (Halo 2). And there is Halo 3- you know, boards the Covenant Space Station infested with the Flood- hé)), the ship is flood- and the Spartan doesn't even think twice. If that is not fearless, then Tell me, what is?

Now, as for Spartans not crushing elites n' cc... I don't remember anywhere where they lost. If you could give me the reference where they 'sometimes' let me know.

And for the Dark Age of Technology-- because the fluff states that the Eldar always had superior technology. It is possible that the Humans did have some better in some places, but it is clear in the Horus Heresy fluff, Necron fluff, and Eldar Fluff that Humanity, during the Golden Age, did not out class the Eldar. The one thing they had which was clear that was possibly superior was their AI technology. But, Humans lost control of it (which isn't exactly superior grasp of the tech), and this is why it is banned.

Funny- don't get me wrong here. The Galaxy is set up for war in 40k. There are a Million Space Marines. There are 300 Spartans (I wonder why they are called Spartans...) If you forget about the Forerunner 'turn off the Galaxy switch', Battle Fleet Gothic has the most EPIC of space battles. This isn't a 'Halo' universe is better than 40k fight. It is just a 'Spartan will kick a Space Marine's FAT @$$' fight.


PS. I forgot about Pathways Into Darkness. Which is ANOTHER part of the Halo/Marathon/Pathways series...

Just like GW with doing the same thing over n' over again, so does Bungie!

[Madness]

I do not acknowledge Marathon and Halo being set in the same universe, there's no statement proving me wrong, just speculation. Let me rephrase, Bungie stated they are separate universes. By that extent I might use references from Starship Troopers while discussing space marines, since 40k has influences from there too.
Technology wise I can only say "Imperator Titan". Also there's probably a reason why Eldar do not even bother with AI tech.

I'm pretty sure that a Marathon dude might be a challenge for a space marines, but unluckily for your beloved motocross suit wearing pea shooter users they are not the same. Moralewise, you're still mentioning MC, which is a very veteran spartan.

I'm sure spartan have had casualties, so it's safe to assume some were in hth, unless it's stated somewhere that "spartans ii never lost a hth fight to anything, ever" a la "no grey knight ever fell to chaos", until then, elites are still a threat and therefore a fight that can (and does) get lost. If it wasn't the Covenant menace wouldn't really be a menace.

Now please, don't make me write in large full caps the thing about marathon and halo being two different (with common points) universes.

[Sangre]

Space Marines breathe poison and chew through metal. THEY'RE JUST BETTER!

PS: If we're talking Spartan vs. Space Marine, then Master Chief is not fair, unless we're talking Master Chief vs. Dante. Then we all know who's dying. Hint: It's not Dante.

[Tynskel]

what are you talking about?

I have already said that Space Marine Heros will defeat a Spartan. But a Spartan will defeat Space Marines.

And why compare MC with Dante? Realistically, all the Heros of the Imperium are the Heros because they are Hundreds of years old. All of the Spartans are within 25 years of each other. That's it. There really isn't a way to differentiate them all. In the books Every spartan is friggn' bad ***.

[Madness]

Because MC is said to be the best spartan II there is, so he picked the best Marine there is (in his opinion).

[DarkLink]

Physical Capabilities:

Strength/Endurance
Both the Spartan and the SM have similar effects in their physical alterations. They both have enhanced strength & endurance.
For argumentative/fluff purposes, I'm rating these as equal.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 1

I'd agree with the strength boosts. I think Spartans actually get a little bit more out of their augmentations in terms of strength, but they're close enough for our purposes. One point each.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 1



Durability/Resilience
The SM have ceramic materials biologically/genetically strengthening their bones while the spartans have metal grafted to their skeletons iirc. Durability of bones of both are roughly equal for the purposes of a one time encounter (the SM's bones could heal themselves in time much more easily than a spartans, but the time required would be far too large for a single battle). Now while their bones are roughly the same in terms of durability, the SM has an enlarged ribcage than is one solid mass than would be far more protective than the regular humans (i.e. a Spartans).

The SM also has a far greater resilience to damage in terms of organs. The SM has multiple redundant organs making a kill by destroying said organs mush more unlikely. When one factors in the poison/radiation resistance/immunity, the SM pulls far ahead. Point SM.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 2

Spartans have effectively the same bone upgrades as Space Marines. They don't simply have metal fused to their bones (that's actually almost impossible to work the way you think it would in real life). So bone durability is equal, though the SM has an enlarged ribcage. SM's also have a few extra hearts/lungs. So point Space Marines.

Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 2



Reflexes/Speed
Both warriors have enhanced senses and reflexes. The Halo Universe (HU) is very specific about how much faster the Spartan is (~300% faster reflexively), while 40k is more vague. A Spartan can run very fast if necessary, while I can find no direct references to SM's running at equivalent speeds. Point Spartan.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 2Spartan: 1 Space Marine: 2

Agreed. Spartans can move crazy fast (they are practically capable of dodging bullets by being able to read the movement of enemy weapons and moving out of the way). Point Spartans.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 2



Firearms:

Standard Equipment
No contest, SM wins in standard armament. .75 amour-piercing mini rocket fired in four round bursts is far superior to a standard assault rifle. There is the whole "dodge the rocket" thing, but it's somewhat unlikely (even in the book, MC still gets messed up by the missile anyways). Bolter > Battle rifle any day.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 3

Special Equipment
40k heavy weapons are nasty for the Spartan. Most are just super-sized versions of special weapons (PC, MM, HB, etc.), but there is one that is a real killer: the Lascannon. Let's put it this way: if a Spartan cannot take a Spartan laser to the face, there is not way in hell they could take a lascannon to the chest. Point SM.

Spartan: 2 Space Marine: 4

For standard equipment, yeah, Space Marines win. However, I'd put them even for heavy weapons. Spartan lasers are basically man-portable lascannons, as are rocket launchers and the like. So two points Space Marine, one point Spartans.

Spartan: 3 Space Marine: 4



Melee:

Unarmed
Spartan Speed vs. Space Marine might. Time and time again, speed wins. Point Spartan.
Spartan: 3 Space Marine: 4

Armed
Energy Sword vs. Power Weapon. These weapons seems to do the same thing, so IMO energy sword = power weapon

Titan Hammer (if that's what it's called?) vs. Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer wins due to effect of smashing opponent with energy blast. A spartan hit with one of these = a sludgy greenish-pink paste. SM hit with hammer = pissed marine.

The SM has other toys of CC malice that outclass spartans (Lightning Claws & Power Fists come to mind). Point SM

Spartan: 3 Space Marine: 5

I agree, in hand to hand Spartans are so much faster than Space Marines that it wouldn't be a contest. I'll point out that Kelly-087, the fastest Spartan, was so quick that after the enhancements the other Spartans literally couldn't touch her if she didn't want them to. And she wasn't that much faster than they were, when compared to how much faster than normal humans or Space Marines a Spartan would be. Point Spartans.


Have you used the gravity hammer in game? It releases a powerful enough blast to throw people dozens of feet through the air, stop a warthog traveling at full speed in its tracks, instantly kill anything in the game... I'd even be willing to say that the gravity hammer may be more powerful than a thunder hammer, though for these purposes I'll rank them equal.

Between the energy sword and gravity hammer, I'd rank the Spartans and Space Marines equal for CC weapons. One point each.

Spartan: 5 Space Marine: 5



(here's the one everyone's always discussing)
Armour

Protection
...
Spartan: 4 Space Marine: 6

I'd agree about ranking them equal. There might be a difference, but we don't have enough data to really compare. One point each.

Spartan: 6 Space Marine: 6



Additional Armour Ablities
This includes the on board AI for the Spartans*. The AI would be much more useful than any machine spirit the SM has, as the AI could actively assist the Spartan (trajectories, calculations, etc.) while doing all the things the MS can do (dispensing pain killers for example). Point Spartans.

Spartan: 5 Space Marine: 6

* iirc, Master Chief was the only Spartan to receive an AI due to a lack of AI's. I'm including it here in a sense of optimum conditions.

The reaction enhancing gel of the MJOLNIR suits would be comparable to the black carapace of the SM. Tie in this category.

Spartan: 6 Space Marine: 7


Firstly, I'll point out that the Master Chief is the first Spartan to carry an AI, not the only one to do so. Secondly, the black carapace doesn't enhance SM reaction times, but simply allows them to interface with the armor. The carapace 'reads' the Marine's motions, and tells the armor to amplify that motion in terms of strenght. It doesn't allow the Marine to move faster than they already could, nor react quicker. It simply minimizes the impedance the armor causes to the wearer.

To back that up, Sisters of Battle power armor has much weaker servos in them, because they cannot effectively control the servos due to the lack of a black carapace. Source is Dark Heresy.

As for the other stuff, yeah, the AI is incredibly useful, as is the built in med-kit in the Spartan Armor. Point Spartans.

Spartan: 7 Space Marine: 6



Overall Winner:

SPACE MARINE

In 40k context, the Spartans are somewhat comparable to the power armoured humans of the Auerian Technocracy of the HH books (False Gods I think). They're close, but Space Marines are still better warriors. Besides, as it has already been said, HU is more realistic, while 40k is pure sci-fi escapism fantasy.

Whew, that was quite a project. :eek: I think I'm going to go to sleep now... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

By my count, Spartans come out on top, neglecting years of experience. Comparing a Space Marine Captain that is 400 years old to a 30-40 year old Spartan isn't really fair. So comparing a Tactical Marine to a Spartan, the Spartan wins by a narrow margin.

I think the main points of disagreement between us really just came down to a few points about Spartans that require a fair bit of knowledge of the Halo backstory, far beyond that of just the games.



Nice list double entendre, you skipped the morale part, is it just my opinion that without the mental conditioning a spartan soldier would break morale far easier? Consider that while halo aliens might be nasty, they are no match for nurgle.

I doubt there would be any problems with Spartan's morale breaking. The training that they go through is just as intense as Space Marine training, and their origins are superior in my opinion. Being put under the rigors of intense, non-stop, extremely disciplined military training is, in my opinion, more effective for our purposes than living on a brutal, primitive world. Both are effective, but the Spartan training would ultimately create more disciplined soldiers, having been trained from the age of 6 rather than their mid-teens.

I think a Spartan would be just as "fearless" as any average tactical Marine, for our purposes. We can debate, but the differences are mild.


-spoiler alert-

I will point out, though, that Spartans can be corrupted, just like Space Marines. Theoretically, at least. In Halo Evolutions, there is a short story about Soren-066, for whom the augmentation process leaves hiim physically incapable of serving on the front line. However, he is still extremely strong and capable by normal human standards (he just can't keep up in certain aspects with other Spartans). He is assigned a job as a pencil-pusher, and becomes frustrated enough that at the age of 16 he assists a traitor within his command attempt to steal something valuable. He ultimately disappears into the wilderness. He isn't considered a traitor by his former commanders, however, simply as "a lost soul". He is the only know case of a Spartan betraying the UNSC in any real capacity.

[DarkLink]

Holy the crappity crap.

I mean your whole post is just stupidly wrong but DAMN.


Sangre,I seem to recall just this morning, BoLS admin posted a thread warning about insulting and degrading other poster's statement.

Guess you missed it:rolleyes:.

[Tynskel]

Pointing out that Marathon takes place before and after halo- The official Bungie Press statement about Halo is that Halo is not a precursor. That's it- they do not deny any other connection between the two. Marathon launches well before first contact with the Covenant- and it is almost impossible to communicate at sub-light speeds- which the UESC Marathon was traveling at- not slip-space. It arrives at Tau Ceti 300 years later.

[BuFFo]

Space Marine versus a Spartan?

Obviously, the winner would be Star Trek.

[Tynskel]

Fire Phasors!

[Force21]

Space Marine versus a Spartan?

Obviously, the winner would be Star Trek.

lol.


but really I would think A Marine would win.....



but here is a related question...


the Halo UNSC?...(if I remember correctly)

or

The Imperium of Man?

who would win... again I think Imperium.


Have fun.




Oh & btw.......they are both pixels & plastic minis....

[entendre_entendre]

@DarkLink: Eh, my list was something that I threw together quickly. I'm in no way a Halo buff, all the info I have is based upon the first novel (I have read the second, but that's just a re-hash of the game :( ) and bits of the games I have played here and there. 40k is more interesting to me, but I tried to not let that bias me. I still stand by my conclusion. BTW, Spartan Laser is still inferior in terms of fire power to the Lascannon IMO.

The reason why it's best to compare a basic Spartan and not Master Chief has already been stated. We are comparing the "stats" of two fictitious warrior groups, not individuals. The actions of one guy does not mean they all can do the same. So yeah, MC can take on a horde of aliens, but Rangar Blackmane has killed a ridiculous number of chaos champions before reaching Wolf Lord status (hell I think he fights a Greater Daemon at some point). While we're at it, the DOOM marine takes on hordes of demons from hell. Hell (pun intended), let's throw in Kratos from God of War too, he fight lots of guys by himself too, and he kills gods (let the body count continue in March MUHUHAHAHA!!!). See where I'm going with this?

Although the fight that I think would be hilarious would be MC versus Yarrick.

<MC shoots yarrick down>
MC: "Yay!"
<Yarrick gets back up>
Yarrick: "Damn wippersnapper!"
<MC shoots Yarrick in the head>
MC: "Stay down."
<Yarrick gets back up>
Yarrick: "That's getting annoying."
<MC shoots Yarrick in the head again>
MC: "Die already!"
<Yarrick gets back up again>
Yarrick: "Alright, now you die."
<Yarrick crushes MC with giant claw>
<Yarrick goes to bar to have a beer before collapsing>

@tynskel: alright, so Bungie put the SPNKr rocket launcher in Halo as an inside joke, that doesn't make them them one and the same. If they were the same, why is there no mention of the S'pht or Pfhor in Halo? Halo came after Marathon, so if they were intended to be the same universe, why the cold shoulder to these aliens?

[Cryl]

Space Marine versus a Spartan?

Obviously, the winner would be Star Trek.

not just me that thought this was a little to close to the Star Wars vs Star Trek thing then :)

[Tynskel]

The Marathon Launched early in Earth's History. The events of Halo all take place before the UESC Marathon arrived at its location.

The Marathon used Sub-light drives. Even then, predicting where a ship would be at Sub-light speeds (what if the engine has a failure, or goes faster?). Now throw in that Earth gets embroiled into a losing war. A war so bad, that Earth gets smashed. It is 'luck' that Earth didn't get glassed.

Speculation: When the Cole Protocol was established, locations and knowledge of ships, planets, and systems were purged. Just by looking at our OWN governments' ability to maintain knowledge, it isn't a hard leap to conclude that the UESC Marathon location was lost and forgotten.

The Pfhor used the same technology as the Covenant did: found Forerunner/Jjaro tech. The time scales for how long the Pfhor were in charge of their empire is not very well understood. I will have to play through all three games, AGAIN (oh no!), to be able to narrow down their timeline.

[Sitnam]

I feel an average marine takes an average spartan. The threats and average tactical marine will face make the Covenant look like a joke (Daemons, terminator-esque robots, bugs that eat entire planets, fungus based lifeforms that grow larger the more they fight, and traitor SM's.) That is a alot scarier then the covenant.

In terms of genetic modifications, marines win. They have a fused ribcage, several sets of organs, and spit poison.

Melee weapons im torn. SM have much more variety. But the hammer in Halo is quite powerful. This match is even.

Ranged weapons, its marines all day. The spartan laser does not compare to a lascannon IMO, and a bolter beats any standard UNSC firearms.

Armor seems pretty even. The marines have a great deal of coordination in power armor through the black carapace. All this talk of marines being slow and ungainly is simply unture. their genetic modification and training with power armor gives them suprising agility. The same is true for Spartans however, who also have a energy shield. I'd give the actual material armor too the marines, but the energy shield gives a slight edge for spartans.

When it comes to unarmed hand to hand, I completely disagree that speed>power. For one, we have no evidence giving spartans more speed then marines. Marines are also said to be very fast in the fluff. But even giving them that, i feel marine power isnt hopelessly outmatched versus spartan speed. Marines are accustomed to fighting Eldar, who are much faster then humans and even superhuman marines. Plus, take a look at real life situations. I follow alot of mixed martial arts, and i've never seen speed as a huge advantage. It does win some fights, such as Jose Aldo vs. practically anybody (Kid is FASSSSST.), but Sean Sherk seemed noticably faster then BJ Penn in their match, as did Mike Swick vs Yushin Okami. Sherk and Swick werent fast enough though, and powerful striking (Penn) and wrestling (Okami) put them away.

And as for Marathon = Halo. No. Made by same company with similar elements? No. But Bungie denied any connection. I understand that some evidence can be used to point it out as a marathon prequel. But unless Bungie reverts what they said eariler, then Marathon stays Marathon.

[Madness]

I don't really think the tranining regime is comparable, have you SEEN the daily schedule of a marine?

The Spartan II traning is intensive, but hardly as insane, I'd say on Schola Progenum levels.

Also marines fight enemies that are at least as fast as, if not faster than, spartans, the aforementioned genestealers, eldar aspect warriors and so on, if we consider that they WANT to fight it out the speed can provide only so much advantage, eventually the training will provide insight on what the next move will be and a crushing block would inflict a solid enough hit to put a stop on the show. If speed was the only thing that counted the Tyranid swarm would have given up on anything else.
Plus there's a limit to the strain you can put on muscles (and an endurance factor) to figure out.

Oh btw, BUNGIE OFFICIALLY STATED THAT HALO AND MARATHON ARE DIFFERENT UNIVERSES yes, marathon inspired halo, yes the story seem to pick up where the other left. Same thing as rogue trader and 40k, but it's two different takes on the same subject.

About the gravity hammer, I still think that a hammer putting holes through 40k barricade is stronger, we just don't realize it because it's all upscaled.

The black carapace doesn't enhance reaction time, autosenses and the power armor do (check the power armor entry in Dark Heresy), the black carapace is only the interface. Occulobe and Lyman's Ear also help with increased perception.

Also, about nonstandard equipment, there's a plethora of stuff that a simple veteran (which is like 20% of the marines out there if we consider veteran or better status) could get his hands on, cute pretty stuff like vortex grenades.

I think the best way to gauge them would be checking what they do fight against, the conclave aliens can't really match the array of enemies the SM meet on daily basis.

P.S.: Also the gravity hammer is not spartan equipment, it's covenant stuff. By that reasoning I'd say we compare the gravity hammer to every other ccw in 40k, I'm sure we'll figure out something stronger. I propose the Wailing Doom.

[Denzark]

Reading all this I say Spartans read more like Eisenhorn's appreciation of the Kasrkin - human death on legs, but that is it. Don't say the SMs have normal human reactions they are much faster - also the armour, flfuff wise, has autosenses and all sorts of jazz, targeters, etc.

Why do they get to be hundreds of years old against some of the most evil alien life forms - yes because they are that bad-arse.

As for the whole, Masterchief takes on waves and waves of bad guys, beats the boss, and saves the world, so does Ellen Ripley - but are you saying a marine wouldn't Tom and Jerry her concertina style if she got that close?

[rbryce]

did you see aliens last night too then ;) ^^^. on topic, i seriously doubt that a spartan would nail a marine, but then, on paper tom shoulda nailed jerry within days of moving into that damn house. its just fiction.

[Old_Paladin]

On the issue of Halo being/not being Marathon:
The Company has stated that they are different; they simply included things as jokes and easter-eggs for the fans to have a laugh at.
In fact, in the first Halo; there is a notice board that says "Looking for a lost orange tabby. Answers to the name Jones." This is a nod to the movies Alien and Aliens (it's Ripley's Cat). So, by that logic Halo actually happens in the Alien/Predator Multi-verse!

[Sitnam]

In fact, in the first Halo; there is a notice board that says "Looking for a lost orange tabby. Answers to the name Jones." This is a nod to the movies Alien and Aliens (it's Ripley's Cat). So, by that logic Halo actually happens in the Alien/Predator Multi-verse! if Halo does, then Avatar probaly does as well. tell me the humans on there do not remind you of the Weyland-yutani Corpoation and the marines on there.

[DarkLink]

Space Marine versus a Spartan?

Obviously, the winner would be Star Trek.

My vote's on Yoda.



Reading all this I say Spartans read more like Eisenhorn's appreciation of the Kasrkin - human death on legs, but that is it. Don't say the SMs have normal human reactions they are much faster - also the armour, flfuff wise, has autosenses and all sorts of jazz, targeters, etc.


I don't see how you've gotten the impression that Spartans are just hardcore humans. In most respects aside from lifespan, Spartans and Space Marines are on very similar levels.

Plus, while Space Marines do have enhanced reactions, Spartans have much more significant boosts to their reaction times. Plus, the autosenses and other armor accessories of the MJOLNIR are far, far superior as a whole to Space Marine armor. Shipboard AI, anyone?


if Halo does, then Avatar probaly does as well. tell me the humans on there do not remind you of the Weyland-yutani Corpoation and the marines on there.

Heh, there are a bunch alien references in Avatar.

[Master Bryss]

Err... has anyone considered a draw?

[DarkLink]

I don't really think the tranining regime is comparable, have you SEEN the daily schedule of a marine?

The Spartan II traning is intensive, but hardly as insane, I'd say on Schola Progenum levels.

Also marines fight enemies that are at least as fast as, if not faster than, spartans, the aforementioned genestealers, eldar aspect warriors and so on, if we consider that they WANT to fight it out the speed can provide only so much advantage...

The black carapace doesn't enhance reaction time, autosenses and the power armor do (check the power armor entry in Dark Heresy), the black carapace is only the interface. Occulobe and Lyman's Ear also help with increased perception.

Also, about nonstandard equipment, there's a plethora of stuff that a simple veteran (which is like 20% of the marines out there if we consider veteran or better status) could get his hands on, cute pretty stuff like vortex grenades.

I think the best way to gauge them would be checking what they do fight against, the conclave aliens can't really match the array of enemies the SM meet on daily basis.

P.S.: Also the gravity hammer is not spartan equipment, it's covenant stuff. By that reasoning I'd say we compare the gravity hammer to every other ccw in 40k, I'm sure we'll figure out something stronger. I propose the Wailing Doom.

Thing about Spartan training is, it's very similar to what a Space Marine would go through during their initial training, but Spartans start at age 6, not their early teens.

After Spartans get out in the field, they don't really have time to train. They're either fighting or moving to a new fight. Same thing with Space Marines while they are deployed. If Spartans ever got much time off to dedicate to training rather than constantly fighting for humanity's very survival against vastly superior foes, then we could say that Space Marines win due to the intensity of their training.

Of course, we don't really know what training for full Spartans consists of. We know the training they go through before augmentation, and a little bit after, but for the most part full Spartans are only shown fighting, with maybe occasional extra training to use a new piece of equipment or something. It's probably not as intense as SM training, but for all we know it could be close. Though Spartans do follow the laws of thermodynamics and have to eat something, unlike SMs who can practically eat a few handfuls of dirt and be fine. And Spartans probably have to sleep a little more than SMs. Aside from that, there isn't much reason to assume that Spartans in their free time don't train almost as much as SMs.

While SMs do fight faster foes, I seem to recall from much of the fluff that genestealers tend to tear apart Marines, who's saving grace is their armor. The armor gives them enough time to put a fist through the relatively unprotected genestealer. I will, however, go back to the example of Kelly-087, though. She is the fastest Spartan, so much so that even the other Spartans couldn't touch her in hand to hand combat. I see no reason why anything short of a 100+ year old Space Marine would be able to do better, and comparing such an experienced Marine to a Spartan isn't fair anyways.

And I'm not sure how the power armor enhances reaction times. There's justification for Spartans, but I've never heard Space Marines getting reaction boosts from their armor, only from some biological enhancements.

And, yeah, equipment (other than armor) is a pretty clear win for Marines. But they also have technology that is, oh, 20,000 years more advanced than Spartans. It's not really a fair comparison, so it kinda gets a bit of a back seat.


Err... has anyone considered a draw?

To be honest, i'd have to agree. The majority of their respective abilities are very close, while each has advantages over the other in certain areas. But then we can't waste hours writing essays about pointless stuff that will never, ever matter in the real world:rolleyes:.

[Tynskel]

::Swish::

Fanboy to the Rescue!

Funny how people keep BOLD facing the 'Bungie denies Halo/Marathon connection'. However, there is no press release stating so. In fact they have a press release just on how they are connected- of course it is vague- but there is no statement saying that Halo/Marthon not happening. Hmmmm...

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=19

I like it how some people say the Spartan Laser is not as powerful than a Lascannon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuNehHNidc4

The laser pierces the target and will hit multiple targets- now I don't remember the Lascannon ever being able to do that. The Spartan Laser also fires three lasers at once. And, a glancing hit usually kills the tank target (wraith or 'Sheela'/Scorpion). A lascannon cannot destroy a tank on a glance, unless the target was already damaged, or it was an open topped vehicle. The Spartan Laser is probably closer to the Particle Whip from a Monolith than a lascannon- Direct hit = dead (Str 9 AP 1, Ordnance) tank. Blast radius takes every thing out around it.

The Rocket launcher is pretty much the same thing as the Krak Launcher from 40k. It will most likely kill open-topped vehicles (like the Warthog), it will damage hv tanks, but not always kill- just like a Krak missile. The Blast radius on a rocket launcher is smaller than the Fuel Rod cannon- which is like a Krak missile, represented by having no blast radius. The idea of a Krak missile doing nothing if it lands next to a space marine as opposed to directly hitting is redonkulous- the rule book has plenty of instances where the mechanics are representative (no shooting in close combat?). If a space marine gets hit by krak missile, you get a dead marine. Same with a Spartan. If you are in cover, you have a 50/50 to survive, and this happens in both games too.

The Fuel Rod cannon is pretty much exactly like a Plasma Cannon, except that it fires really quickly and doesn't overheat. They have a scatter- represented by bouncing off things. Pretty much everything that is in the blast radius is destroyed. Fire enough times at a vehicle, and the vehicles dies- plasma is a decent backup anti-tank.

If I had the resources, I would make my 'covenant' army. Use Leman Russ Executioners as the 'Wraith'. Space Marines allies as Elites (maybe a Captain as the 'Arbiter'). Storm Troopers as the special forces Grunts. Special Weapons teams/ Veteran Squads for Jackels/Skirmishers units. Grunts as the rank n' file platoons. Valkyries/Vendettas for the Phantoms/Spirit transports. Heavy Weapons teams for Shades. I think it would be fun!

[Madness]

It has still been denied in interviews all over the place.

Halo tanks are fast but lightly armored, I still think the Tau are better templates. The particle whip is a little too much, but little too much seems to be the keyword, so sure, let's make it a turbolaser while we're at it.

On the subject of 100+ yo marines, there's a lot of those, I'd say a 20% meets the quota, you have 1st company, company command squads, chaplains, librarians, dreadnaughts, all veteran marines.

Yeah, the power armor doesn't add up much (it does add something tho, check Dark Heresy) but a guy who gains several inches in stature after the juicing is surely to have what it takes. About early training, marines recruit on death world, funny little paradises like Fenris where surviving past the 10 years of age is a feat on his own, if you add longevity, they really have the time to get around it.

About "who would win" I agree it's a silly point, but giving a spartan some stats is a nice exercise, as long as you don't end up with something that's better than an imperial assassin and more versatile to kick.

[Nabterayl]

About early training, marines recruit on death world, funny little paradises like Fenris where surviving past the 10 years of age is a feat on his own, if you add longevity, they really have the time to get around it.
To be fair, not all chapters recruit on deathworlds. The Ultramarines don't, for instance.

[Duke]

This has gotten to the point of silliness... Next thing you know we will be at page 34 talking about Female Space Marines!

Other than that I disagree with Buffo. I think Jedi pwn all. Even Stark Trek.

Fin.

Duke

[Madness]

I went with the generic description, plus BA/DA/SW ... I never really liked UM, but reading now it looks like families push their kids hard to get recruited, so I suppose they get them trained? I dunno, I'm speculating hard, but dude, Ultraboringmarines. :P

[Tynskel]

Funny you say Turbo-laser. I thought I wasn't being unreasonable with 'Particle Whip' when the Spartan Laser can easily kill 4-5 vehicles in one shot and groups of people. However, it doesn't ignore cover- you get behind a wall, and the shot is stopped.

Interesting you say Imperial Assassin- Last time I checked, an Imperial assassin will kick the crap outta space marines unless it is a Space Marine hero- which is what I was getting at with a Spartan.

I think an Imperial Assassin is pretty good description of a Spartan. They have a wide range of special abilities (which you look at the Spartan descriptions- very similar specialties). They all kick @$$ in close combat (even the shooters). The only assassin that doesn't make sense is the Culuxes. Some spartans have cloaking fields, others are brawlers, and some are just straight out shooters.

[Tynskel]

Jedi are just Librarians without power armor.

Star Trek gets Phasors! w00t!

[Old_Paladin]

I like it how some people say the Spartan Laser is not as powerful than a Lascannon.

The laser pierces the target and will hit multiple targets- now I don't remember the Lascannon ever being able to do that. The Spartan Laser also fires three lasers at once. And, a glancing hit usually kills the tank target (wraith or 'Sheela'/Scorpion). A lascannon cannot destroy a tank on a glance, unless the target was already damaged, or it was an open topped vehicle. The Spartan Laser is probably closer to the Particle Whip from a Monolith than a lascannon- Direct hit = dead (Str 9 AP 1, Ordnance) tank. Blast radius takes every thing out around it.

I still think you're missing the point of different gaming mediums.
Lascannons don't have a 'piercing' mechanic on the table top because it would make them too powerful.

If you read nearly any 40K novel, then lascannons and plasma guns usually cut several people in half with a sweeping beam, and lascannons will slice through a gate/wall to destroy heavy weapon emplacements/armour behind it.
Even bolters are discribed as punching straight through light infantry and exploding in the faces of the guys behind the first one.

[Madness]

An assassin is an extremely skilled fighter, a human sampled from an imperium that spans galaxywide(the population of the imperium is esorbitating), yet a monodirectional tool tasked with getting in, killing, getting out, anything else is a waste of resources. So much for "vast array".

I don't think a spartan comes even close to assassin capabilities, also an assassin has a different purpose than a space marine, sure, if a marine is the objective of an assasination mission, he's probably a walking dead, but for most situations you need a marine and not an assassin.

Btw, I wonder what will happen when Space Marine (the third person game) comes out. Suddenly people will expect single marines to be able to face whole armies.

I don't understand what do you mean by Culexus "not making sense", but it doesn't look like it's of any relevance.

[Nabterayl]

I think he meant that the Culexus is the only assassin that undertakes a mission that Spartans don't.

[DarkLink]

Halo tanks are fast but lightly armored, I still think the Tau are better templates. The particle whip is a little too much, but little too much seems to be the keyword, so sure, let's make it a turbolaser while we're at it.

On the subject of 100+ yo marines, there's a lot of those, I'd say a 20% meets the quota, you have 1st company, company command squads, chaplains, librarians, dreadnaughts, all veteran marines.

About "who would win" I agree it's a silly point, but giving a spartan some stats is a nice exercise, as long as you don't end up with something that's better than an imperial assassin and more versatile to kick.

Well, the Scorpion is a light battle tank. Similar to the Predator, really. The Wraith, on the other hand, is quite heavily armored (but much weaker rear armor). Quite slow, as well. So Leman Russ is an appropriate comparison.

And I'm personally excluding pretty much any Marines beyond around 50+ years of experience. The first Spartans were created in universe less than 50 years ago, so there's no way to make a fair comparison between the two. Unless the Master Chief finds the fountain of youth in the next game and lives to be 500 years old:rolleyes:. Then we could do a comparison. Of course, the Master Chief isn't going to be in the next game...

I do wonder why you say Spartans shouldn't be as good as Assassins. Assassins don't really have enhancements to nearly the same extent as Space Marines and Spartans as I recall, just extensive training.

In fact, I'd say that Spartans would almost be a mix of Assassin/Space Marine. They'd have SM WS, BS, S, T and similar, but be I 5 and have a 5+ invulnerable due to their extremely quick reactions and physical speed.


This has gotten to the point of silliness... Next thing you know we will be at page 34 talking about Female Space Marines!

Other than that I disagree with Buffo. I think Jedi pwn all. Even Stark Trek.

Fin.

Duke

Grey Knights are Jedi Space Marines :D.


An assassin is an extremely skilled fighter, a human sampled from an imperium that spans galaxywide(the population of the imperium is esorbitating), yet a monodirectional tool tasked with getting in, killing, getting out, anything else is a waste of resources. So much for "vast array".

I don't think a spartan comes even close to assassin capabilities, also an assassin has a different purpose than a space marine, sure, if a marine is the objective of an assasination mission, he's probably a walking dead, but for most situations you need a marine and not an assassin.

Btw, I wonder what will happen when Space Marine (the third person game) comes out. Suddenly people will expect single marines to be able to face whole armies.

I don't understand what do you mean by Culexus "not making sense", but it doesn't look like it's of any relevance.

Like I said, I'm not sure why you don't think a Spartan "comes even close" to assassin capabilities. Spartans are extremely competent marksmen with extensive training as Snipers. Maybe not quite as good as a Vindicare, but still capable of sneaking around and hitting a target from a few miles away. And Spartans are physically stronger, almost certainly just as fast, and better armored...

So insomuch as an Assassin is extremely focused in only one particular area of expertise (infiltration, sniping, hand to hand combat), they would probably do a better job than a Spartan, and have certain capabilities that Spartans do not (like shape-shifting), but they wouldn't be too huge of a step beyond a Spartan.

I'll also add that later companies of Spartan-IIIs had drugs to increase aggressiveness and similar behavior, to make them more effective and ruthless in combat. Maybe not to the degree of an Assassin, but pretty similar.




All told, I'm going to say that this is my best guess of a statline for a Spartan:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 . 4 .4 4. 1 5 1 9 . 3/5+

Everything's Space Marine level, but with an increased Initiative and a 5+ invulnerable to reflect their physical speed and reaction time, which I'd say is more on par with an Assassin than a Space Marine.

I gave them a 3+ armor save, just 'cause I think the shields vs. power armor thing works out to be pretty similar. I'd definitely say the shields are too good to give them a 4+, anyways.

Edit: They'd probably have, like a lasgun or something for armament...

As for leadership, I'm not sure what to put there. The thing is, leadership doesn't reflect to real world stuff very well. Any highly trained Soldier or Marine in real life understands that in a firefight, they're going to die unless they keep fighting. There's kind of a tipping point in training, where once you've reached a certain point the training just takes over. Then, if you come face to face with something so scary it would cause a normal human to curl up in a little ball, instead your body reacts by shooting it in the face (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu). Realistically, I'd have to say that almost everything in 40k, starting at IG Stormtrooper level and upwards, should probably be Fearless for most intents and purposes.

And before someone says that a Spartan hasn't had to face some of the enemies Space Marines fight, like 'nidz, I'll point out that the Master Chief has repeatedly stared down the Flood. Both Brutes and Elites are actually quite a bit stronger than Spartans (and Space Marines, by association), and Brutes are significantly tougher. And Hunters make both look like pushovers. I can't see a Spartan not going down with a weapon in their hands. And I can't see a Space Marine doing so, either. And the Gravemind is, in quite a few ways, a lot like a Tzeentch Greater Daemon, several times having the Master Chief in its grip, only letting him go because it suited his purposes. And good luck trying to kill the Gravemind in personal combat...

I'm not gonna say that the bad guys in 40k are weaker than those in Halo, but I wouldn't assume that the bad guys in Halo wouldn't fit in real well with those in 40k, either.

I'll also point out that Humanity's straights are much more dire than in 40k. Mankind is literally staring complete and total extinction in the face. Sure, technology is decaying and the universe is at constant war, but there are millions upon trillions of humans across the universe. In Halo, the population of mankind has been reduced to roughly two hundred million. That's less than the population of the USA. Every Spartan knew that if they failed, it could literally mean the extinction of the human race. Space Marines don't have to worry about that much.

[BuFFo]

Other than that I disagree with Buffo. I think Jedi pwn all. Even Stark Trek.

You must mistake me for an actual thread troll. I won't get suckered into a debate about fiction....












































Q owns the Jedi.... :p

[Tynskel]

I still think you're missing the point of different gaming mediums.
Lascannons don't have a 'piercing' mechanic on the table top because it would make them too powerful.

If you read nearly any 40K novel, then lascannons and plasma guns usually cut several people in half with a sweeping beam, and lascannons will slice through a gate/wall to destroy heavy weapon emplacements/armour behind it.
Even bolters are discribed as punching straight through light infantry and exploding in the faces of the guys behind the first one.

Interesting you mention that the mechanic would make them too 'powerful'.

Don't forget, 'Firewarrior' didn't do that either. And there was a direct translated Chapter Approved Character!

Even in Second Edition, where everything was over the top, the Lascannon did not hit multiple objects. It did have a sustained firing, which represented in D10 hits on the single target.

When a guns fire in 40k, they aren't firing one shot or 2 shots. It is a whole hé)( of a lot of shooting going on, and all sorts of things are happening.

[Madness]

Firewarrior character is as relevant as movie marines. Also, not your average Fire Warrior.

DL, stuff aside the statline I proposed was PRETTY close to yours.

4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 4+ FNP
less inititative, as it's the average spartan, not your specific one, but tbh it doesn't make that big a difference
Ld8 because it's what a very tough guy gets, to get more you have to venture in the insane area, like commissars
4+ FNP provides more survivability than a flat 3+/5++ while failing to protect against 'uge gunz, which seems to be appropriate.

Concerning your Ld issues, consider WHEN you check for morale, like when half your squad has been killed, and that routing does not mean fleeing like a coward, but running for cover to contain losses too, which Spartans do a lot, in an attrition war (ww2 style) falling back for cover means conceding ground, which is a very bad thing to do, but Spartans' shields/biofoam need time to work/recharge after getting hit. I'd say they could benefit from a nice rule when they are in cover, like if they are in cover, they add +1 to the cover save (representing the fact that less incoming fire means more shield regen)

Other stuff, marines get their sniper training early on, and with the exception of scout sergeants and SW scouts, they move on to other weapons because there are other roles that need filling, a power armored/terminator sniper is overkill, a scout is better suited than that. And it's not that they lose their accuracy with 4 hours of shooting a day (FOUR HOURS OF SHOOTING AND NOTHING ELSE!!! there's other moments for strategic, hth, and tactical training)

Age. When comparing two things you either have to pick the average guy, the popular guy or the hero guy.
The average guy is an average of all the guys on a side and on the other, so for marines you inevitably end up with a veteran since there are so many superold dudes, for spartans you need to get a decently trained guy, not your freshman but not your exceptional guy.
The popular guy is the guy you see more often, what corresponds to the statistical mode, for marines it's the tactical marine (which spans from early 20s to the late 100s, depending on which company and how incapable of being promoted to a veteran the guy is), for spartans there's no real correspondence as there's few of them so we have to conjure a guy that's slightly less than averagey on all things. I'm saying slightly less because the average is surely going to be higher than the mode in a situation with people exceptionally good at some things but no complete inepts on the other end of the spectrum.
The hero guy is the guy from novels, that's what usually creates the nerdrage, people read about gaunt's ghost and suddenly every infantryman can take down biotitans with a toothpick, in this case SM offer too much, seriously, WAY too much, and that's without getting out the primarchs or the template (emprah) SM were based on, so I'd suggest we steer away from that.

[Fellend]

I'm just saying, Space marines goes toe to toe with ancient bloodthirsters. They stride into enemy fire and gain fire superiority by just eating up the enemy fire. They actually charge into the biggest tanks the 40th millenium can offer so they can take them down with grenades.

Spartans run, run, hide, shoot, run, run hide shoot. and cry whenever someone mentions airstrikes.

All that needs to be said has been said by the two marines in the DOW Crusade intro: "If we take that down, we win this. CHARGE!"

[Marshal2Crusaders]

A Spartan is far more advanced than a Space Marine. He's faster, smarter, and trained in more variety of skills. A Space Marine is stronger, larger (MC is like 6'9"), has access to more robust equipment. The Master cheif is a power armored Ninja, a space marine is a tank.

[Subject Keyword]

They both lose because they aren't allowed to have genitals.

They have too much in common to want to fight.

"Do you ever think about anything but fighting?"
"No."
"LOL! Me neither! Lets be friends!"
"Ok. Did they chop off your moneymakers too?"
"Yeah! Do you promote a forced and contrived ideal of false masculinity as a result?"
"Totally! Do you ever have impure thoughts about machine consciousnesses?"
"OMG, yes! Lets go live pathetic, uninteresting, bloodshed filled lives together while we make things that are older, more talented, smarter and cooler than us suffer because they look different, providing wildly negative role-models for young confused minds all across gender and class spectrums! Yay!"

It's a non-issue though. 'Cause Doomguy wins everything forever.
http://angryjoeshow.com/avatars/doomguy.png
He pours Daemon blood on live Carnifexes for his breakfast cereal.
He skullf*cked Chuck Norris, and Chuck Norris liked it.
He invented fun.
He cries testosterone. And he never cries.
Ok, I'm done.

[Nabterayl]

I'm just saying, Space marines goes toe to toe with ancient bloodthirsters. They stride into enemy fire and gain fire superiority by just eating up the enemy fire. They actually charge into the biggest tanks the 40th millenium can offer so they can take them down with grenades.
Uh ... not the space marines I know. The space marines I know hit like the hammer of God from an unexpected direction at an unexpected time and then run the hell away before the enemy can muster a real response and flatten them. They don't stride into fire when they can use cover instead. They don't get shot at at all when they can help it. You don't survive decades or centuries of active service with an attitude like, "This armor is basically small-arms proof, so I'm going to let them shoot me just to be intimidating."

As for bloodthirsters ... put a bloodthirster within axe's reach of a squad of space marines and most of those marines are going to die. They might not be scared of it, but there are grey knights who are no match for bloodthirsters in hand to hand combat.


Spartans run, run, hide, shoot, run, run hide shoot. and cry whenever someone mentions airstrikes.
Which is exactly what space marines do.


All that needs to be said has been said by the two marines in the DOW Crusade intro: "If we take that down, we win this. CHARGE!"
Yeah, and you saw how well that worked out for them :p

[DarkLink]

They both lose because they aren't allowed to have genitals.


Actually, Spartans are still... endowed. They just have a repressed drive for that stuff.

[Cryl]

It's a non-issue though. 'Cause Doomguy wins everything forever.


You've just won this thread.

[Old_Paladin]

A Spartan is far more advanced than a Space Marine. He's... smarter and trained in more variety of skills.
I'm not sure where you get these ideas from.
'Smarter' can be a very subjective term. A space marine has a lot of training in mechanics and physics (they repair and even build their own equipment; some are even sent to the Mechanicus on Mars), biology (both for battlefield first-aid and to better know how it injure foes; some join the Apothecarian and learn intense gene-knowledge), history and philosophy (they are warrior-MONKS; and some become Chaplains and Librarians).
I don't remember the last time Masterchief sat around the workbench to fix his broken armour, or spent his 15 minutes of daily freetime reading a book!
In fact, Spartans come off as really one-dimentional characters; space marines actually seem like real people. Hell, those from the Salamanders Chapters actually get to have FAMILIES!


The Master cheif is a power armored Ninja, a space marine is a tank.
Well, to copy a phrase from a much loved game series, "Tank beats EVERYTHING!"

[Subject Keyword]

Actually, Spartans are still... endowed. They just have a repressed drive for that stuff.
Oh! Really! I was misguided by a XBox fanboy. What are the odds.

Same difference in my book, though.


You've just won this thread.

No, I'm pretty sure Doomguy just won the thread...:cool:

[Tynskel]

They both lose because they aren't allowed to have genitals.

They have too much in common to want to fight.

"Do you ever think about anything but fighting?"
"No."
"LOL! Me neither! Lets be friends!"
"Ok. Did they chop off your moneymakers too?"
"Yeah! Do you promote a forced and contrived ideal of false masculinity as a result?"
"Totally! Do you ever have impure thoughts about machine consciousnesses?"
"OMG, yes! Lets go live pathetic, uninteresting, bloodshed filled lives together while we make things that are older, more talented, smarter and cooler than us suffer because they look different, providing wildly negative role-models for young confused minds all across gender and class spectrums! Yay!"

It's a non-issue though. 'Cause Doomguy wins everything forever.
http://angryjoeshow.com/avatars/doomguy.png
He pours Daemon blood on live Carnifexes for his breakfast cereal.
He skullf*cked Chuck Norris, and Chuck Norris liked it.
He invented fun.
He cries testosterone. And he never cries.
Ok, I'm done.

Sorry man, But the Marathon Marine kicks the crap outta the Doom Marine. Fold space n' time- stopped the end of the Universe(s).

[Fellend]

Uh ... not the space marines I know. The space marines I know hit like the hammer of God from an unexpected direction at an unexpected time and then run the hell away before the enemy can muster a real response and flatten them. They don't stride into fire when they can use cover instead. They don't get shot at at all when they can help it. You don't survive decades or centuries of active service with an attitude like, "This armor is basically small-arms proof, so I'm going to let them shoot me just to be intimidating."

As for bloodthirsters ... put a bloodthirster within axe's reach of a squad of space marines and most of those marines are going to die. They might not be scared of it, but there are grey knights who are no match for bloodthirsters in hand to hand combat.


Which is exactly what space marines do.


Yeah, and you saw how well that worked out for them :p

Play Black Templar. We don't stop for anything, half the squad got leveled by a battle cannon? stop whining, move faster, and Uphold the Honor of the Emperor, You are alone against 20 guardsmen? Accept any challenge! They are lashing you into plasma death, shake it off and Abhor that witch, but most importantly do NOT suffer the unclean to live.

Black Templar + Legendary relic = Blood Thirster didn't get to strike. Entire demon army against BT= The player actually cried. =)
I love BT, nothing like brainwashed super soldiers on an eternal crusade to make your day brighter =)
But then again I might be overly cheerful because i get to play for the first time in 2 months.

[Duke]

You must mistake me for an actual thread troll. I won't get suckered into a debate about fiction....












































Q owns the Jedi.... :p

All I can say is LMFAO! That was completly classic...


Sorry man, But the Marathon Marine kicks the crap outta the Doom Marine. Fold space n' time- stopped the end of the Universe(s).

Dude, did you seriously argue Doom-man?

Ok I think I have the Solution... The Winner is... Samus!!! Cause shes a gamer chick, and nothing beats gamer chicks. (M doesn't count. ;) lol)

Duke

[Melissia]

My cause is just, my will is strong, and my gun is very, very large!

[DarkLink]

Oh! Really! I was misguided by a XBox fanboy. What are the odds.

Same difference in my book, though.


To quote halopedia:
"Catalytic Thyroid Implant
Description: Platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues.
Risk(s): Rare instances of elephantiasis. Suppressed sexual drive"


My cause is just, my will is strong, and my gun is very, very large!

Ooh-Rah!

[Melissia]

Also if you do not get the reference, you should never post about the Dooomguy again.

Ever.

You are not wotrthy of the Doomguy.

[entendre_entendre]

My cause is just, my will is strong, and my gun is very, very large!

WHO'S A MAN AND A HALF? I'M A MAN AND A HALF! RIP AND TEAR! RIP AND TEAR!


The way this discussion is going, I think it's time to bring out this quote:

Wow! Now I'm in a completely different place!

Seriously, we're forgetting to original question about Space Marines and Halo Spartans: Who can make a better cheesecake?

[Melissia]

Who cares? I wanna talk about the awesomeness that is Doomguy!

[Sir Biscuit]

WHO DOESN'T?!

http://www.doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/comic.php

[DarkLink]

Seriously, we're forgetting to original question about Space Marines and Halo Spartans: Who can make a better cheesecake?

Obviously Spartans. Space Marines eat, like, rocks and stuff. What do they know about food?

[Melissia]

That must be why they call him Master Chef.

[Kesher]

why dont we get a wolverine vs marvel game lol

[DarkLink]

Only if wolverine gets to ride a giant wolf and has chainsaw claws arcing lighting bolts.

[rbryce]

why dont we get a wolverine vs marvel game lol

ummmm.... wolverine is a marvel character, and judging from all the times hes fought marvel characters(spidey, hulk, deadpool, and just about everyone else), hed lose. he can drown, has been disintergrated by a sentinel(days of future past timeline), be dismembered, have his adamantium stripped from his bones(magneto did this and put it in sabrtooth), the list goes on, its just recent logan-wank from marvel that makes him seem invincible, hmm, mareens in mareens in marvel anyone? from the marvel universe, your best bet would be someone like madame web, or somesuch. what id like to see is someone from DC slapping calgar about, like one of the endless, or thessaly(a witch so old she makes the empraaaa! look like a baby, and has no compunctions with ripping your still beating heart out and eating it in front of your still living face, just so she can get a few more years in). or even an elemental, such as swamp thing, you kill him, he regrows somewhere else.

[Tweak]

I'm fairly certain a Spartan Laser would be enough to penetrate Space Marine armor, If the Spartan was to have a Brute Gravity Hammer the battle would be over before the Space Marine could lift his bolter.

Thats my 2 cents.

[DarkLink]

ummmm.... wolverine is a marvel character, and judging from all the times hes fought marvel characters(spidey, hulk, deadpool, and just about everyone else), hed lose. he can drown, has been disintergrated by a sentinel(days of future past timeline), be dismembered, have his adamantium stripped from his bones(magneto did this and put it in sabrtooth), the list goes on, its just recent logan-wank from marvel that makes him seem invincible, hmm, mareens in mareens in marvel anyone? from the marvel universe, your best bet would be someone like madame web, or somesuch. what id like to see is someone from DC slapping calgar about, like one of the endless, or thessaly(a witch so old she makes the empraaaa! look like a baby, and has no compunctions with ripping your still beating heart out and eating it in front of your still living face, just so she can get a few more years in). or even an elemental, such as swamp thing, you kill him, he regrows somewhere else.

That's one impressive run on sentence. At least, I think it's one sentace;).

[Melissia]

I'm fairly certain a Spartan Laser would be enough to penetrate Space Marine armor, If the Spartan was to have a Brute Gravity Hammer the battle would be over before the Space Marine could lift his bolter.

Thats my 2 cents.

And if a Marine had a conversion beamer the spartan wouldn't be able to get into range to use any of his weapons before he was turned into space dust. Let's not get into the more exotic weapons and ammo now, kthxbai :P

[Madness]

But vortex grenade the vortex grenade vortex grenade!

[Melissia]

Or how about the ork gravity weapon from second edition?

[Blood Nemesis 360]

Don’t know how old this thread is so sorry if I’ve posted really late :S

Space Marines the Emperors Finest

But about the reaction times in the ultramarines series Uriel in virtually the very beginning of the book (chains of command) kills three PDF/Guardsmen in hand to hand in under three seconds crushing ones kneecap and ribcage, knocking of the top of another’s head, and taking of the jaw of the other in THREE SECONDS space marines are far from slow in combat and this sounds like what I read the master chief do to 3 ODST in fall of reach except he took longer and hit with less power albeit unarmored so I imagine his more than capable of achieving this too when armoured. Also a brute and elite have both matched the MC in combat on spate occasions I remember reading that’s where the dent in his armour came from I believe. Also a grey knight was able to punch a whole in the head of an assassin lighting quick without any power armour on (Killing ground) this shows that SM's are stronger the spartans have never punched through someone as far as im aware even when kelly hit a Spartan 3 she was surprised that his ribs didnt shatter she was not surprised she did not punch straight through him. (she wasnt aware he was a spartan)

Also to use a rather dubious source umm C.S Goto the Eldar were capable of dancing round bullets ( Matrix anyone) Spartans can’t do that and the SMs still stood up the Eldar despite this speed so I don’t think it’s that big an issue. A marine also lifts a massive slab with one finger which apparently a normal man could not lift with two hands (or would struggle greatly or something like that).

As for the power armour on Marines when crushed under the remnants of a tank/bar (The killing ground read you’ll see what i mean) unarmored Uriel could not lift it up but stated with power armour he could of lifted it with ease cue armoured space marines lifted the rubble with ease. He also survived mortar rounds, lascannon blasts small arms fire etc without being harmed significantly. If my halo reading/gaming are anything to go assault rifle rounds bring down the shields and can pierce the armour(games not read in books) plus Spartans can be burnt by flames marines stride through promethium with ease. So it must increase strength significantly

Using Games for comparisons

Seriously i think games are a really bad source to compare the two in ODST a normal soldier can flip a tank does that mean ODSTS can lift a scorpion or survive a plasma shot uhh don’t think so games are always going to make the controlled/featured character look invincible and awesome in Halos case MC kills anything end of warhammers case in the video for the new game on 360 SM kills swarms of orks in CQC with ease (which doesn’t happen to me on tabletop when charged by the orkys) it’s a game play mechanic nothing more where as books and perhaps film (Halo Legends?) is a better indication of what they can do (and could do if they weren’t plastic and pixilated if only:{) I’ve used some examples myself and I don’t really feel their valid for example Spartan laser has anyone seen it fry 20 tanks in anything other than the games, has anyone seen one marine kick a hundred Orks in CQC single handed in anything other than the upcoming game.

Spartans

I seriously can’t see them beating a space marine but they WONT get pwned by them either to anyone that played halo wars and watched the Spartans fight the honour guard their tough have shields are exceedingly well trained and physically i believe they seem faster but strength wise their weaker than SM but i believe in both cases the difference is slight and balanced someone stated that the SM would seem to move in slow motion that was just John getting used to his new augmentations why do you think you can dance around bullets in game that’s you’re superhuman speed and reflexes (this has being stated somewhere admittedly I haven’t got a source so unsubstantiated until if find one I guess).

Overall i think its going to come down to technology SMs fight Eldar/Tyranids and demons so in a firefight or hand to hand speed is only going to give so much of an advantage I can’t see any standard UNSC weapon breaking through Astartes armour a bolt would bring master chiefs shield down easy in both books and game small arms fire brings it down in fact a elites punches in vacuum or low gravity (4got which) brought it down a SMs punch would likely decimate the shield or at least half it a bolt will shred it easy plus the amours some form of titanium 40k universe uses adamantine I think basically the Boltgun would blow Spartans to pieces. As for the Spartan laser and gravity hammer I can see the gravity hammer killing a space marine easy I can’t see a space marine not realizing this and simply not just shooting the gravity hammer (Why did no one else realize this possibility their Astartes not IG their not incompetent and stupid) after all the Spartans are fast enough to hit him with it. The Spartan laser I think it would bounce of a predator (light tank like scorpion are you on drugs its a fast moving BEAST OF A TANK:}) but shredding a marine unless his wearing termie armour but that would just be unfair.

In hand to hand let’s give the Spartan a scavenged chainsword to be fair, I think its 50-50 with one being stronger the other faster and with both being able to cut through the armour of the other I simply can’t decide who could win this would really depend on luck and the individual marine and Spartan, Kelly for example would be much more likely to win due to being even faster than a normal Spartan, while assault marines, sergeants and captains are more skilled and/or battle hardened. Once again I think what’s losing the Spartans the fight is their tech if they had tech similar to the Interex than that completely changes the dynamic but they dont so too bad on them.

Besides the points moot anyway one company of Marines vs 1 Survivor and a small group trapped in a dyson sphere good luck MC!

Around a million Marines vs 1 known surviving Spartan and a small group trapped in a dyson sphere hmmm MC just give up

Around a Million Marines vs 1 million and one Spartans CALL THE IMPERIAL GUARD, TITAN LEGIONS, THE INQUSITION, THE CUSTODES, SISTERS OF BATTLE AND THE GREY KNIGHTS............... Sorry MC thought you stood a chance there for a minute

Chaos Space Marines vs 1 surviving and free Spartan...... Trapped an totured by the wonderful ruinous Powers.

Id like to state I play as chaos space marines and it rather pains me to give credit to the Astartes my brother however now has a smug look on his face.

[Melissia]

Lol at the thread necromancer attempting to compare the different physics of two completely different universes (40k, which doesn't suck, and Halo, which does).

[fuzzbuket]

Around a Million Marines vs 1 million and one Spartans CALL THE IMPERIAL GUARD, TITAN LEGIONS, THE INQUSITION, THE CUSTODES, SISTERS OF BATTLE AND THE GREY KNIGHTS............... Sorry MC thought you stood a chance there for a minute
.



simple as that! marine> nasterchief
1000000marines> 1 masterchief

uncountable amounts of guardsmen, 1000 SOB, 1000 GK, 1000 custodians, ????? sisters of silence, 1000 titans, tens of millions of battle tanks, 1000 million armed LEGAL spacecraft, 100+ =][=, and 1000000 marines with banks support ect, AND THE GOD EMPEROR> 100000 UNC troopers, 100 odsts, 1 spartan 1000 tanks.

warhammer has a bigger universe so more guns.

[Sangre]

We're back here, and ooh, the space marines are still better. Fancy that.

[Paul]

Leman Russ > any sort of marine ever. Except maybe that guy from Armor, and only because he is cool.

And, of course, doomguy.

[Schnitzel]

Spartans seem to be heavily inspired by 40k Space Marines, with them being indoctrinated and trained at youth, given bio enhancements and superior armor. The main difference is the tech that the two have available. SM armor is a helluvalot tougher than Spartan armor, even with the shielding added to it. SM bio enhancements trump Spartan enhancements a thousand times over. Extra hear, lungs, quit clot blood and acid spitting SMs and all a Spartan gets is improved muscle and reflexes? Haha, please.

BTW, in preparation of the Halo Reach beta, there has been a new live action short released that shows the "creation" of a Spartan. A tad over dramatic and they take some regular cannon fodder soldier and turn him into a Spartan instead of a kidnapped and indoctrinated youth, but I guess it sells. *meh*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVpsM7nG-U

[Quaade]

If you want to compare marines to spartans, don't compare a tabletop version to cinematic game version.
Compare cinematic game with cinematic game, i.e. use the Inquisiter rulebook marines with inquisitor rules space marine power armour against Halo Spartans.

[joescalise]

sorry, i found this hilariously bad game and just had to post it.
How many spartans can a space marine kill before he gets taken down?

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1265176060

my record is 1056

that is fun!!!!

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

Lol at the thread necromancer attempting to compare the different physics of two completely different universes (40k, which doesn't suck, and Halo, which does).

You should be nicer to thread Necromancers! They were born that way...

Again, this argument is a moot point because Kratos, fresh from his victory over Chuck Norris, would weigh in on the situation. Bloodily.

Only to be overtaken my Samual L Jackson.
Who is an extremely sexy man.
My head hurts...
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepppppp......
http://www.wildsound-filmmaking-feedback-events.com/images/samuel_l_jackson.jpg

[DarkLink]

D
Besides the points moot anyway one company of Marines vs 1 Survivor and a small group trapped in a dyson sphere good luck MC!


Only one remaining Spartan II (actually a handful remaining, but other than MC they're scattered all over who knows where. In fact, now MC is who knows where, too).

ONSC, however, has replaced the Spartan II program with the Spartan III program. Now, the first few batches of III's were much more mass-produced, but as established in Halo: Reach some are still given full MJOLNIR armor and for all intents and purposes are just like MC and the other Spartan IIs.

Basically, the Spartan II program was the pre-production test run. The Spartan III program perfected the augmentation process, and is now in full production. Of note is the fact that the augmentation process was improved such that the survival rate went from 44% to 100%, with no detrimental effect on the physiological enhancements.

To note, three full companies of roughly 300 each were raised in a very short period of time. The kids were recruited from orphans, trained and augmented within 4-5 years, if not less, then sent on massive suicide missions. They were basically dropped off on vital covenant planets with no backup, against superior foes and inferior technology, and still were hugely successful in creating massive amounts of damage.

Some of them were withdrawn from the normal companies, and were trained and equipped more as Spartan IIs, with the best possible equipment and trained into adulthood, rather than being sent out on suicide missions at an average age of 11-13 or so.

Most Space Marines Scouts probably haven't even been recruited yet at that age, let alone sent out on suicide missions without any form of support. Based on that fact alone, no SM scout can compare with a Spartan.


Spartans seem to be heavily inspired by 40k Space Marines, with them being indoctrinated and trained at youth, given bio enhancements and superior armor.

I wouldn't be sure of that. There are too many other examples of power-armored super soldiers that are much more mainstream. Spartans are a direct reference to the Spartans of olds, given updated armor, weapons and training.

[Subject Keyword]

Spartans seem to be heavily inspired by 40k Space Marines, with them being indoctrinated and trained at youth, given bio enhancements and superior armor.

Which of course couldn't be inspired by anything else.
Like every warrior society ever.
Samual L Jackson's childhood home, for instance.

[DarkLink]

Oh, and ONI projections for the Spartan III programs estimated that, excluding human extinction at the hands of the Covenant, and given sufficient recruits, they could go from 20 to 100,000 Spartans fully trained within about 20 years. That would take Space Marines a few millenia or so.

[Schnitzel]

Oh, and ONI projections for the Spartan III programs estimated that, excluding human extinction at the hands of the Covenant, and given sufficient recruits, they could go from 20 to 100,000 Spartans fully trained within about 20 years. That would take Space Marines a few millenia or so.

Maybe in 40k it'd take that long, but I'd think during the great crusade in 30k the Emperor was able to pump 'em out a bit faster. There were a couple hundred thousand at that time I think?

[Melissia]

Per founding legion.


Also? There's more Guardsmen in 40k than there are HUMANS in Halo.

[Old_Paladin]

Oh, and ONI projections for the Spartan III programs estimated that, excluding human extinction at the hands of the Covenant, and given sufficient recruits, they could go from 20 to 100,000 Spartans fully trained within about 20 years. That would take Space Marines a few millenia or so.

Actually, this doesn't make any sense.
Space Marines (as a whole), maintain a very even level of battle brothers (~1,000,000). To maintain an even level, they must be recruiting and training a battle brother for every one lost.
I'm pretty sure that more then 100,000 marines are killed in action every TWENTY years.
Thats 7300 days. Making for an average death toll of about 13-14 marines killed per day in the whole 40K universe needed to have similar numbers to the 'improved quick-grow' spartan program.

Would it be hard to form 100 new chapters, while maintaining the status quo? Very likely. Is is hard for them to stay stable at 1000 chapters of 1000 battle brothers? Not really, they still even form a new chapter from time to time when an old one is completely lost.

[Burning Sirius]

I have to say, I like the Halo universe more than the 40k one. At least Bungie is willing to move the plot forward. And Halo doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief half as much as 40k.

Huh, the Haloverse isnt as extensive as 40k. Also the plot was moving until the Emperor was defeated. Chaos has won. Humanity is to survive against all odds... odds that will be impossible to fight against. There you go. Also the introduction of the Tau and the Nids as upstarts are ways to screw humanity even further.

[DarkLink]

Per founding legion.


Also? There's more Guardsmen in 40k than there are HUMANS in Halo.

Heck, now there's almost more Space Marines in 40k than humans in Halo. The events of Halo 3 were quite literally humanity's last stand, though there may be a few small pockets of survivors elsewhere in the galaxy.


Actually, this doesn't make any sense.
Space Marines (as a whole), maintain a very even level of battle brothers (~1,000,000). To maintain an even level, they must be recruiting and training a battle brother for every one lost.
I'm pretty sure that more then 100,000 marines are killed in action every TWENTY years.
Thats 7300 days. Making for an average death toll of about 13-14 marines killed per day in the whole 40K universe needed to have similar numbers to the 'improved quick-grow' spartan program.

Would it be hard to form 100 new chapters, while maintaining the status quo? Very likely. Is is hard for them to stay stable at 1000 chapters of 1000 battle brothers? Not really, they still even form a new chapter from time to time when an old one is completely lost.

Eh, I know GW always makes a big deal about how long it takes to create new SMs. The thing is you need the progenoid glands from a dead SM, and a year or so for the augmentation to work, and all that stuff, and even then it kills many of the neophytes.

Spartans, however, are limited only by the number of available recruites. You just inject some drugs, and a little surgery, and a few months later you've got a new Spartan. If that technology was available to the Imperium, every single planet could have its own chapter of SMs, instead of only 1000 chapters across the whole galaxy.

[Fellend]

if we are going to push it forward twenty years. By then the Imperial navy has simply virusbombed the planet declared it exterminatus and moved on. No sign of any spartans. The end.
Hell all you need is one battlebarge.

[Old_Paladin]

Spartans, however, are limited only by the number of available recruites. You just inject some drugs, and a little surgery, and a few months later you've got a new Spartan. If that technology was available to the Imperium, every single planet could have its own chapter of SMs, instead of only 1000 chapters across the whole galaxy.

Actually, the only limit to the Imperium is the fear of the Horus Heresy. They could raise more chapters, but the High Lords of Terra forbid it.

The Imperium doesn't need high success rates, they have such numbers of people that they can do what ever they want.

For example: a census of a secondary hive city on Necromunda was ended with a count of over one billion in the upper settlements. That doesn't include the lower levels with have an even greater population or any other hive (of which there are around a thousand).

If you took the entire upper settlement and tried to make them marines, with a 99.9% fail ratio; you would still get a million new marines. From only part of a single hive city.

[Melissia]

Chaos has won. Humanity is to survive against all odds... odds that will be impossible to fight against.

Uh, no? The Imperium is doing a fine job surviving, and even expands a little every now and then.

The Imperium has stopped every assault by Chaos forces in their tracks, multiple tyranid hive fleets, uncounted WAAAGH!s, the Inquisition has constant vigilance against the subtler forces of Chaos, the PDFs hold the planets until the GUard arrives, the Guard wipes out the enemies of the Imperium and moves on. Occasionally a crusade is declared and the Imperium expands into new territory. The Tau are a joke, barely worth mentioning, the Eldar are already shattered and broken, the Dark Eldar have fewer members than a single Imperial world, and so on. Hell, even the Necrons aren't as great of a threat as they're made out to be apparently.

I'm sure GW wants to make a huge deal about how the Imperium is "failing", except the Imperium isn't "failing" using how GW depicts it.

[Old_Paladin]

Uh, no? The Imperium is doing a fine job surviving, and even expands a little every now and then.

The Imperium has stopped every assault by Chaos forces in their tracks, multiple tyranid hive fleets, uncounted WAAAGH!s, the Inquisition has constant vigilance against the subtler forces of Chaos, the PDFs hold the planets until the GUard arrives, the Guard wipes out the enemies of the Imperium and moves on. Occasionally a crusade is declared and the Imperium expands into new territory. The Tau are a joke, barely worth mentioning, the Eldar are already shattered and broken, the Dark Eldar have fewer members than a single Imperial world, and so on. Hell, even the Necrons aren't as great of a threat as they're made out to be apparently.

I'm sure GW wants to make a huge deal about how the Imperium is "failing", except the Imperium isn't "failing" using how GW depicts it.

It's the classic GW circular plot-stream.
The Imperium is 'failing' because that makes it seem 'grim-dark' and they have to fight on every battlefront, however, they need to win the majority of battles (otherwise the universe fluff is at an end, and that means no more game), winning means that they don't seem to be 'failing' so GW must reiterate how bad and desperate it is for Imperial forces, which means grimmer wars for them to wage, which they win so the game can go on... wash and reapeat.

It's the same reason that they had to give up on international plot-driven summer campaigns. It was an epic 'if the good guys don't win, then evil controls everything...', but that means the good guys must win. The end stories were always the same. The super-powered evil force, loses his ability and becomes a standard evil again. The new (unheard of) grand leaders of the good-guys always gave their lives to preserve the Empire/Imperium; leaving the fluff established leaders to lead once more.

The old saying is true; the more things change... the more they stay the same.

[hellbringer]

Old Paladin, I really miss the campaigns, these game systems definetly lost something when the plays lost the ability to influence the universe.

I really don't like that they've frozen the time line. The focus used to be that the Imperium was so big that even when the Imperium lost battles that you had no doubt the would endure simply because of the size. The Imperium was massive. Now they've tried to move to this edge of the apocalypse time line and it doesn't have the same urgency or interaction that a fluid timeline did.

That and I miss them developing battlefleet gothic.

[Old_Paladin]

I really miss the Canadian Spring campaigns. I feel the GW Canada HQ really did it right. They had a much smaller feel, but were more believable.
It was stuff like a 'Nid splinter fleet attacking a single planet, protected by the PDF and several nearby Chapters sending a single company; or a penitant crusade by Black Templars trying to cleanse a corrupt system; or fantasy orks attacking an Empire Castle to determine a new big boss for the Waaagh.

[ragnar thunderfist]

come on. your all saying that an sm isnt as fast or as agile as a spartan? :eek: come on, quoting from sm codex 1st edition <im that sad i keep em> the speed of 10 men, the strength of 100 men, and the bravery of 1000 men.
and this is compared to the IG, and lets face it, in the warhammer 40k circumstances, the IG are super hard compared to todays solders. any IG will pwn about 30 normal SAS men in CC or on the battlefiled and be laughing. they stand against waves of thousands of orcs, screaming and shooting, and still come out with bruises and cuts. any solder for today would run with s**t in there pants and tears on there faces within 10 seconds.
so lets say a normal man can run at 15-20 miles an hour 20x10 200. which is what, a lambogini murchealago.<bad spellin srry>. the bravery of 10 men. so they fear nothing basicly. the strength of 100 men. so, flip one of halos heavy battle tanks. okay a normal tank.
i dont know much about spartans, but if they tried to go up against your average space marine, and lets face it they train at the age of 4, there 9 feet tall by the age of 12, and they could rip an IG in half by the age of 14 with the amount of growth hormones they put in thm. dont even get me started on the space wolves regime. 10000 ft cliffs at minus 25 degrees celcius for a food fight. the half of them that dont die are so scarred they scream at anything and eat to solve there problems. in CC a space wolf could go up against 100 elites in CC without thinking about it. stealths not a problem. they make less noise than a silk spider while running. a spartan cant do half of these things. they'd be dreaming. not to mention the amount. theres well over 5 million estimated space marines. theres what, 500-600 spartans? lool.

weapons.
a bolter would go through a halo battle tank and go through another. and then explode the the cowering spartans head. and then he'd do it another 400 times to make sure he got the message that he doesnt like you very much. now i know alot of people are saying that a spartans plasma weps would slice through a sm like a hot knife through butter. WRONG. it would melt the eagle a bit. at best. sure the spartans have regenerating shields, but thats nothing a magazine of bolter shells cant handle. they explode!!

so all in all, a squad of veteran space marines would just.. well completley destroy the entire spartan army hands down. there armous crap, there barley any of them, and they look like gay storm troopers. i mean, a space marine looks so badass that the mere sight of him running onto a battlefiled screaming and shooting running towards you would make a platoon of IG men go running. of course, if they havent allready been cut in half by bolter shells. (a normal space marine has the acuraccy any sniper in halo would trade there armor for). while if they saw a spartan, a few dozen shots, shield gone. another 10 shots, hes melted and his remiains are on fire.

so you know, read it and weep, those who kid themselves a sm would get pwned. you just got proven so badly.
for gods sake i dont give a damn if i splet something wrong, it took me half an hour to write this and i cba to go thorugh spell checking. and i exaggerated a little. but a sm would pwn them!1

[Denzark]

OK, which threadcromancer started this caca again?

Space Marines - could turn out failed aspirants from their kitchens or even from the place where the Rainbow Warriors go on their battlebarge to get their toenails painted.

They would still kick the arses of poxy spartans.

And Master Chief is a navy rank. Which quite obviously means he is camp as Christmas.

[ragnar thunderfist]

[QUOTE=DarkLink;56263]Thing about Spartan training is, it's very similar to what a Space Marine would go through during their initial training, but Spartans start at age 6, not their early teens.
QUOTE]

thats only some chapters. and there chapters that recruit on deathwords. to get into some chapters you have to claim at least 500 skulls in battle by the age of ur pre teens to be initiated as 'might be a scout ifs hes a lucky git'. others like the ultrsmurfs, start there training at the same time as they learn to walk, if not earlier

[ragnar thunderfist]

the only thing that could pwn a space marine <excluding terminator armoured space marines and porbital bombardments. lets face it they are the only things that can kill a space marine!> is chuck norris on steriods then wrapped in dreadnaught sized terminator armour and the emprahs weapons. which you know, would make god run crying. he would light his fart, killing the tyrannids and the swarm in 1, take his home made magnet and completley fry the necrons, rip khornes head off, give nurgle the flu and kill him, rape slaanesh, then kill him/her, turn tzeench into a fat bloke with not enough cash an cant decide between a bowl of choco ice cream and mcdonalds, burn the orcs with another mega lit fart, outsmart all the eldar and then rape the screaming banshee's <face it there hot> destroy the dark eldars power scource by taking all there emo songs away, thus effectivley destroying them much more efficiently than any orbital bombardment would, eat the chaos space marines, hack the golden throne, sniff up all the warp fumes, take a quick break with bruce willis to play lazer tag with the IG lazguns, then kill all the tau by high fiving them, and then claim all of mankind for himself, ressurect all the primarchs, all while roundhouse kicking god and eating live grenades cuz it gives him a tingly feeling, and using khornes horns as drinking horns.
in less than five mins. oh, and kick david blaine in the nuts and proving that its impossible to survive underwater tied up for 45 days exept to a space marheen or himself. :). oh and completeing all finial fantasy, mario halo dow and cod6 with 1 finger. then breathe again.

[DarkLink]

Old Paladin, I really miss the campaigns, these game systems definetly lost something when the plays lost the ability to influence the universe.

I think the game system actually lost something when GW decided to stop moving the plot forward.



thats only some chapters. and there chapters that recruit on deathwords. to get into some chapters you have to claim at least 500 skulls in battle by the age of ur pre teens to be initiated as 'might be a scout ifs hes a lucky git'. others like the ultrsmurfs, start there training at the same time as they learn to walk, if not earlier

Still, it's a couple years of hardship isn't too significant of a matter. The point is, early Spartan training fits right in with early SM training.

Another thing to point out, is that while surviving on a deathworld produces very tough individuals, carefully organized military training produces far better soldiers. Look at the Taliban. Having lived a rough life of poverty, the Taliban are tough and fearless opponents. But compared to our troops, who have often only had a few years of training and have spent most of their lives in comfort, they simply don't match up as soldiers. A few years of quality military training makes for a much better soldier than a tough life of misery.

Also, don't make the mistake of assuming that living on a deathworld is tougher than quality military training, either. It is certainly more dangerous, but both are very hard lifestyles. The only difference is that on a deathworld if you fail, you die, whereas in the military if you fail you just get shipped home (or maybe to the hospital). It has the same result of weeding out the weak, but you still get just as good end results. Plus you can still use those drop-outs as farmers or something.

[Kirsten]

Wow, like two armies of fanboys charging. I have to go with marines here, skimming the early posts, Spartans are not 8' tall, you can see that in the games, maybe 7', unless the standard human troopers you fight alongside are all unusually large. Much faster than marines? there is no evidence for that, they are both fictional. Power armour does not slow down the wearer, that is the whole point of all the artificial muscle bundles in the armour, and the nerve connections. I haven't read the Halo books, but I have played the first four games, the armour is just for looks. Seeing as your health bar is basically the recharging shield, which a burst of fire will deplete, once it is gone, a few more shots and you die, so the armour can't be terribly good at stopping damage. In 40k terms a spartan would be somewhere in between a guardsman and a marine, comparable to a scout or a storm trooper with a personal shield.

People like to complain about 40k fluff, I don't see the issues, what are these inconsistencies? As for it not moving on, I don't recall the plot in chess ever progressing, it is always a pitched battle about the king. It is a game, the setting works.

[DarkLink]

Wow, like two armies of fanboys charging. I have to go with marines here, skimming the early posts, Spartans are not 8' tall, you can see that in the games, maybe 7', unless the standard human troopers you fight alongside are all unusually large.

Spartans are between roughly 6'9" and 7'6" on average, just based on the height of known Spartans. I will point out, however, that Elites are about a foot taller than this, and are naturally stronger than Spartans are. Brutes are roughly 8'6" tall, and are even stronger than Elites, though not as intelligent. Both come from cultures that revolve around the military arts (Elites are like Samurai, Brutes like Vikings). And then Hunters are 12' tall, and immensely strong, as well as carrying a fuel rod gun (a.k.a plasma cannon).

At the same time, Spartan physiological enhancements appear to be on a similar level to Space Marines, at least in terms of strength gains. A Space Marine might have a slight edge on Spartans in terms of strength due to the fact that they grow a little bit bigger, but I doubt it would be significant enough of one to make a difference considering the opponents that Spartans have proven themselves against.



Much faster than marines? there is no evidence for that, they are both fictional. Power armour does not slow down the wearer, that is the whole point of all the artificial muscle bundles in the armour, and the nerve connections.

There's not much evidence that Marines get faster. But the Halo books firmly establish that Spartans are significantly faster than the fastest human beings will ever hope to be, both in reaction times and in physical speed and agility, and their armor makes them even faster than that.



I haven't read the Halo books, but I have played the first four games, the armour is just for looks. Seeing as your health bar is basically the recharging shield, which a burst of fire will deplete, once it is gone, a few more shots and you die, so the armour can't be terribly good at stopping damage.

Yes. Because it's a video game. And Bungie doesn't like making easy games (if you play on Legendary), especially not with Halo Reach. In the books, Spartan armor is much better. In fact, Spartans didn't have shields before the Covenant came around, and did fairly well. The armor was enough to stop plasma, though it would burn away after too much damage. The armor itself doesn't cover as much as Space Marine power armor does, but the armor itself is fairly close otherwise. But, yes, Space Marine armor does provide more protection that Spartan armor.

Note, though, that Spartan armor is much more realistic. In real life a Space Marine would have extremely limited range of motion based on GWs design. They wouldn't be able to move their arms above their shoulders, and I don't know how they could walk based on the armor around their hips. Realistically, the Space Marines would have to sacrifice some protection just to be able to move well enough to fight.



I don't recall the plot in chess ever progressing, it is always a pitched battle about the king.

Chess doesn't have a setting, or plot. The fluff in 40k is like a big old book long epic fantasy series (except not as well written), except the last 20 of the books they've released are prequels. And even those prequels tend to cover the same thing over and over again, just from different viewpoints. I don't particularly care too much about the fiction of the 40k universe, but part of that is because nothing really new ever seems to come out. They just rehash what's been done before rather than actually resolving anything.

[Grubbslinger]

Your argument about realism is a mute point in this debate. I forget where I heard this before but I remember some one taking about how you have to take things based on how they work in the universe where they come from. IE Space Marines have a wide range of movement because they do in 40K universe. You cant just say "oh but no they dont have this because they wouldnt in real life." To Space Marines, 40K is real life and thus they can do what they can in 40K.

With that in mind, a Space Marine routinly fights things that are way tougher then a Sparten. The way I like to look at it is compare what each one fights. So, SM vs. a Cov. Elite? SM wins, he fights xenos like that all the time and takes them out. Spartan vs. say Ork Warboss? Spartan wins, sorry orks. But a when you start thinking about Carnifexs or Demon Princes? I dont think a Spartan could handle that. Now, most Space Marines couldn't either but Captains to Chapter Masters could.

This puts my answer at this, a Spartan vs. a normal Battle Brother are equal. I would say in a match, the Spartan would win some, and the SM would win some. But if you take say the best Spartan vs. the Best SM, lets say Magnus Caligar for argument (not saying hes the best :) ) then the SM are going to win hands down. Basically, Spartans don't scale well.

[DarkLink]

With that in mind, a Space Marine routinly fights things that are way tougher then a Sparten. The way I like to look at it is compare what each one fights. So, SM vs. a Cov. Elite? SM wins, he fights xenos like that all the time and takes them out. Spartan vs. say Ork Warboss? Spartan wins, sorry orks. But a when you start thinking about Carnifexs or Demon Princes? I dont think a Spartan could handle that. Now, most Space Marines couldn't either but Captains to Chapter Masters could.

Yeah, but you can't compare a several hundred year old Captain with a Spartan. The oldest Spartans are in their mid-fourties, and part of that time is spend in cryo-freeze.



This puts my answer at this, a Spartan vs. a normal Battle Brother are equal.

Basically, Spartans don't scale well.

I agree with the first part, but not the second. None of the Spartans have had the time to live long enough to gain a fraction of the experience that a Captain or Chapter Master has. We don't know what a three or four hundred year old Spartan could do, or whether they can live that long in the first place.

[eldargal]

Which would make marines superior, wouldn't it? You have a bunch of super soldiers who can live for centuries, even milennia if you include dreadnoughts, gaining experience and expertise virtually the entire time. Even a regular marine could have a century more battle experience than a spartan. I know who I would put my money on.


Yeah, but you can't compare a several hundred year old Captain with a Spartan. The oldest Spartans are in their mid-fourties, and part of that time is spend in cryo-freeze.



I agree with the first part, but not the second. None of the Spartans have had the time to live long enough to gain a fraction of the experience that a Captain or Chapter Master has. We don't know what a three or four hundred year old Spartan could do, or whether they can live that long in the first place.

[Duke]

Lets look at the procedures each goes through... IN this post, the Spartan.
From Halopedia:
Spartan Augmentation Procedures:
Carbide Ceramic Ossification- covers about 3% of bone mass, makes bones nearly unbreakable.
Muscular Enhancement Injections- Increases muscle tissue density and lactose recovery time.
Catalytic Thyroid Implant- Boosts growth of bones and muscles (Makes them bigger)
Occipital Capillary Reversal- Produces increased sight
Superconducting Fibrication of Neural Dendrites- 300% increase, also unknown amount increase in intelligence, memory and creativity.

Results:
Capable of running at speeds exceeding 34mph (john-117 briefly ran at 65 MPH but busted his achillies because it was too hard on his body. (Numbers are with MJOLNIR armor on.)

Capable of lifting 3x their body weight

Capable of virtual night vision

Reaction times are estimated at twenty milliseconds

Capable of unprecedented teamwork that repsembled "telepathy," (They aren't telepathic!)

No Physiological or mental instabilities.

Duke

[Duke]

Space marine augmentations: (From Lexicanum)
Secondary Heart: Boosts blood flow, can survive in low oxygen environments, back up
Ossmodula: Increases size of marine and makes his rib cage fuse together making it a bulletproof solid mass
Biscopea: Vastly increase muscle size
Haemastamen: increases hemoglobin content (More efficent O2)
Larramans Organ: Instantly seals any wounds suffered
Catalepsean Node: Allows the marine to function without sleep for up to 2 weeks before negative effects work
Preomnor: Neutralises otherwise poisonous things consumed by the marine
Omophagea: Allows the marine to learn by eating, absorbs genetic material and transmits gained information
MultiLung:can breath in toxic air and can breath in low oxygen areas.
Occulobe: Superior vision, Can see in night/low light like it is daytime
Lymans ear: Immune from dizziness and motion sickness, can filter out and enhance certain sounds
Sus-An membrane: Can enter into suspended animation
Melanchrome: Controls the amount of melanin in the skin protects from radiation
Oolitic kidney: filters blood quickly
Neuroglottis: Enhanced sense of tase allows him to identify a chemical by taste alone and can track his target by taste
Mucranoid: Provides protection on skin against extreme heat and cold, allows marine to operate in a vaccum
Betchers Gland: Spits poision.
Progenoids: Essentially creates the stuff to make more marines.

Duke
More later...

Duke

[Old_Paladin]

The problem with trying to compare an average Spartan to an average Space Marine, is that only Maines have average battle brother; even Spartan is a special individual.

That's what happens when you try to compare a few hundred hyper-specialist to a million supersoldiers. A battle-brother is just a faceless, nameless killer (because there are 9 more guys just like him just within his squad). The Spartans have personalities, abilities they are great at, with abilities that other spartans surpass them at.

Jorge is the largest spartan depicted and is only 7 '4" and weighs over 320 lbs. (non-armoured). That still makes him smaller then a normal Marine.

[Lockark]

Spartan's have the Luck Gene. Nuff' Said. lol

[Old_Paladin]

Spartan's have the Luck Gene. Nuff' Said. lol

A Single Spartan has the luck gene.

[DarkLink]

Which would make marines superior, wouldn't it?

Well, let's fast forward a few hundred years in the Halo Universe to find out... oh, wait, this is only the first few waves of Spartans:p.

Now, if we could go a ways into the future of the Halo universe, then the armor/training/enhancements of Spartans may have been improved to make them clearly superior to Space Marines. After all, the UNSC not only is extremely technologically innovative, but also has a ton of alien technology that is easily on the level of the Imperium, or even significantly more advanced, to copy from. Meanwhile the Imperium does nothing but stagnate.

Strictly speaking, yes, the Space Marines are a far superior military force to the Spartans and the UNSC. They also have a few dozen millennium of technology on them, and the Space Marines themselves have not only 10000 years of history, but trillions upon trillions of humans scattered across the whole galaxy to support them. Give the UNSC time enough to match that, and the Spartans very well could exceed anything the Space Marines ever dreamed of. Until then, however, you really can't make the comparison.


The problem with trying to compare an average Spartan to an average Space Marine, is that only Maines have average battle brother; even Spartan is a special individual.

Another thing to consider is that, due to this, Spartans routinely operate on their own, or in very small groups. Space Marines, however, tend to respond with overwhelming force (even if that force is only 10-20 Marines). Space Marines usually have the luxury of being able to pick and choose battles, and to bring enough gun. Spartans aren't so lucky, due to the vastly overwhelming firepower of the Covenant.



Jorge is the largest spartan depicted and is only 7 '4" and weighs over 320 lbs. (non-armoured). That still makes him smaller then a normal Marine.

Right. The strength enhancements themselves seem similar (both Spartans and Space Marines see roughly similar % gains in strength over the adult norm), but the Space Marines would probably have an edge.


A Single Spartan has the luck gene.

The rest have the same gene as the 300 Spartans did back in the day:rolleyes:. Which, incidentally, is part of why Halo Reach is awesome.

[Grubbslinger]

Again the point about time is mute. Even if you place the Spartans and Space Marine in the same time frame, Captains and Primarch are going to be way better then a Spartan. I mean, its not like a SM last 2000 then suddenly wakes up a badass. All the top guys had to fight, a lot to keep stay alive and last long enough to become a Captain or Chapter Master. That was the point I was trying to make. There are a select Space Marines who no matter when they were in their service would be able to take a Spartan hands down.

But I have to agree with a lot of your defense. Good job!

[Duke]

I was thinking we are comparing this all wrong...

In the Spartan classes there are (essentially) SPARTAN II's and SPARTAN III's

Spartans 2- is guys like master cheif and jorge in halo reach. They are the Spartans that we have been using as a comparison for the apace marines. There are only about 25-30 of these super soldiers running around and eventually the UNSC decided it was too slow and inefficient to train more, so they madde the SPARTAN III program which is who you play on halo:reach. SPARTAN IIs were so vital to morale that they were never marked as KIA, only WIA and MIA because the death of a SPARTAN II would smash morale beyond recognition.

Spartan 3: created to be the "mass production" Spartan. Had many of the characteristics of the SPARTAN II but to a lesser extent. These guys were considered "expendable," they were still leaders and awe-inspiring among the UNSC troops and above and beyond even the elite ODST guys, but not the level of SPARTAN IIs

Do you see what I am getting at?

SPARTAN II= Primarch
SPARTAN III= Astartes

And I think wwe know who wins between John-117 and Sanguinus...

Duke

[DarkLink]

Again the point about time is mute. Even if you place the Spartans and Space Marine in the same time frame, Captains and Primarch are going to be way better then a Spartan. I mean, its not like a SM last 2000 then suddenly wakes up a badass. All the top guys had to fight, a lot to keep stay alive and last long enough to become a Captain or Chapter Master. That was the point I was trying to make. There are a select Space Marines who no matter when they were in their service would be able to take a Spartan hands down.

But I have to agree with a lot of your defense. Good job!

An important concept in statistics is that you cannot extrapolate beyond your data set. Basically, we know that a 500 year old SM Captain is a force of nature. We don't know how a 500 year old Spartan would perform, thus we can't make a comparison. Comparing a 500 year old Captain to a 30 year old Spartan is a lot like comparing that same Captain to a 30 year old Marine recruit.

Now, it might not be possible for a Spartan to live to be 500 years old. Their augmentation may or may not affect the length of their life, and who knows how good UNSC healthcare is:rolleyes:. But ultimately my point is that it is more or less irrelevant, because the answer is a foregone conclusion, and at no fault to either party. Sure, a Chapter Master could probably beat a Spartan. But could a SM Scout? A Tactical Marine?

Ultimately I would say that, roughly speaking, Spartans and Space Marines are on a similar level in terms of their various physiological enhancements and armor. Space Marines tend to have superior weapons, though Spartans have been able to get by with inferior weapons against the covenant fairly well. So it comes down to experience. A 30 year old Marine is roughly on the same level as a 30 year old Spartan. If there were 500 year old Spartans, they would probably be on a similar level to most 500 year old Marines.



SPARTAN II= Primarch
SPARTAN III= Astartes

And I think wwe know who wins between John-117 and Sanguinus...

Duke

It's a little more complicated than that. The Spartan II program was the first full test run. Some of the stuff had gone through preliminary testing with the Spartan I program, but the II program was the first time everything was brought together at once. The results were fantastic, but only 44% of the candidates were successfully augmented.

The Spartan III program, however, eliminated the problems from the augmentation process, and actually improved it. Physiologically, the Spartan IIIs are equal to, or even better than, Spartan IIs. Plus the augmentation was 100% successful, with no casualties.

The Spartan III candidates were drawn from orphans rescued from planets destroyed by the covenant. The physiological requirements were a bit looser than with the Spartan II program, due to the desperation of the war. These candidates were given inferior sets of mass produced armor, and sent out on basically suicide missions to buy the rest of humanity time.

Some Spartan III candidates did meet the Spartan II qualifications, however, and were drawn out of the regular Spartan III companies and equipped the same as Spartan IIs. This is where Noble Team from Halo Reach comes from, as it is made up of Spartan IIIs fighting alongside Spartan IIs, using the same armor and similar advanced equipment.

[Grailkeeper]

None of this answers the ultimate question, which is how many space marines would it take to beat super mario

[fuzzbuket]

how would he jump on them i assume power armour is a wee bit tougher than koopas but termi tipping and i doubt dreads can aim above there heads :P

[Duke]

None of this answers the ultimate question, which is how many space marines would it take to beat super mario

Though I fear responding to this will take the thread horribly off topic, I can't help myself..

Really it depends, is he on a mushroom or is he using a star? Cause if he is using a star them terms better look out! But if he is regular Mario, I say 7.

Duke

[DarkLink]

Well, the comparison could be make by proxy. How many SMs does it take to beat Samus Aran, then play a few games of Super Smash Bros.

[Lockark]

A Single Spartan has the luck gene.


Nupe. All of the Spartan II's have the Luck Gene.

This is actually a plot point in the halo universe. The Spartan I's, and Spartan III's do not have the Luck Gene.



There is a reason you don't really hear about them, Just the II's.


(And no. The Spartan-I's were not the Greek Spartans from the 300 story. The Spartan-I project was a top secret project pre-dating the Spartan-II project. The Spartan-I's being how they discovered the Luck Gene.)

[Old_Paladin]

Nupe. All of the Spartan II's have the Luck Gene.

This is actually a plot point in the halo universe. The Spartan I's, and Spartan III's do not have the Luck Gene.

Halo 3 open cutscene, and I quote:

"Like the others, you were strong and swift and brave. A natural leader."
"But you had something they didn't. Something no one saw, but me. Can you guess?"
"Luck!"


Gene's ultimately mean nothing, unless they are expressed.
You don't get to call yourself a blonde, if your actual haircolour is brown but you have a blonde resessive gene.

[DarkLink]

This is actually a plot point in the halo universe. The Spartan I's, and Spartan III's do not have the Luck Gene.

There is a reason you don't really hear about them, Just the II's.


The reason you don't hear about Spartan Is is because not only is it a top secret project, but they aren't particularly relevant to the war. It was just a testbed for some of the techniques used on later Spartans.

Plus, Sgt Avery Johnson is a Spartan I, as well as CPO Mendez (the guy who oversaw Spartan II/III training). So you do hear about them.

Spartan IIIs aren't well known because most of them were sent off far away from the storyline of the video games. They have several books dedicated to them. And 5 of the 6 Spartans in Halo Reach are Spartan IIIs.


Regardless, it's a plot point that the Master Chief specifically has the luck gene. He is only one of a handful of Spartans of any type to survive the war (yes, there are other survivors). However, he managed to do it while being stuck in the middle of the fighting. Most of the other Spartan survivors ended up getting stuck in relatively safe places, and the vast majority of other Spartans sacrificed themselves in the fighting.

[Dymoon]

i just want to say i'd love to see an Angry Marine fight a spartan just for the laughs ,dual wielding chainswords and power feet, let's see how'd they manage to last.I don't know much about the halo but either way i vote space marines cause i seriously doubt that spartans can keep nids at bay (especially nid elite) or necrons that basically are a comercial to terminator

[Dezmo1218]

Just when I thought my nosebleed caused by this thread has finally been staunched, someone comes along to get it started again.

I'm seriously interested to see what happens after the Xbox kingdom gets their hands on Space Marine, however. If it gets more people interested in the Table-top game, all the better for our hobby; even if they paint their Space Marines to look like Spartans. (There is a kid at our FLGS that already does this, and tries to field BA Storm Ravens in his Codex SM lists. Sigh)

[Tynskel]

Just when I thought my nosebleed caused by this thread has finally been staunched, someone comes along to get it started again.

I'm seriously interested to see what happens after the Xbox kingdom gets their hands on Space Marine, however. If it gets more people interested in the Table-top game, all the better for our hobby; even if they paint their Space Marines to look like Spartans. (There is a kid at our FLGS that already does this, and tries to field BA Storm Ravens in his Codex SM lists. Sigh)

Hehe!

My friend painted his Tau Force to match post Halo 2 force: The Stealth Suits are Commando Elites, Shadowsun is the arbiter. The Tau soldiers are marines. The tanks are Wraith purple. It's a fun looking list, and his backstory is all Marathon/Halo.

[Eiden]

Hmm, if you guys are interested, I wrote a crossover about that kinda stuff, did the research, got the facts right, might be a bit biased with my main character being a Spartan, but that compensate for the SM's plot armor. Here's tha link: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6948005/1/Orca

[DrLove42]

Jesus....thats some serious threadomancy there....

[L192837465]

10 months is nothin...

\It really should have been left dead.

[Denzark]

Having read 'the Outcast Dead' this week, my vote would be World Eater Sergeant Tagore to champion this fight.

He is proper nails.

Mind you to make it fair it would have to be a Ratling Sniper sergeant against the Master Chief.

[Morgan Darkstar]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q145/jfrazell/threadnecromancersmotivational.jpg

[Eiden]

...Sorry, google's fault for bringing me here :S

[Tynskel]

Bwahahahah!!!! This thread is MINE!

Master Chief will win!

He's killed an entire armada, by himself! (Halo 1)
He Stopped the Invasion of Terra (Halo 2)
He saved Holy Terra from Invasion, again! (Halo 3)
He saved Holy Terra from a Zombie Plague! (Halo 3)
He destroyed THE greater Daemon, Nurgle! (Halo 3)

What more could you want? He DOES have luck of the Emperor on his side...

[fuzzbuket]

befor drunkencorgimaster jacks this thread lets just say this:

1) halo earth =/= 40k terra. one has cathedrels with space lasers all over it, on has aliens all over it.
2) halo UNSC guns shoot bullets. bolters shoot mini RPG's
3) the flood =/= nurgle. one is squshy and killy one is easy to spuisdh.
4) papa nurgle =/= gravemind. its more gravemind= small chaos spawn.

[Tynskel]

1) you don't know about the cathedrals
2) 40k guns shoot bullets, too
3) uh, wrong. A parasitic disease that infects people turning them into walking dead... Hmmmm....
4) spawns have no brains. Gravemind has a brain.

Oh oh oh oh!
Try again!

Master Chief wins!

[DrLove42]

The Flood is more similar to the Tyranids than Nurgle (other than looks)

Controlled by a Hive Mind (a Gravemind)
Evolve into higher beings (Pure Flood in 3 - Tanks and Turret flood)
Reappropriate enemy biomass into their own form
Swarm tactics
Spread via spores ("One flood spore can destroy an entire species" - Rtas 'Vadum, Halo 3)

Also Bolter = Brute Shot
Lascannon = Spartan Laser
Plasma Cannon = Fuel Rod Gun

Also The Chief will always get my vote. From all the 40k books, and all the halo books i've read the Spartans are a much more likable relatable character...