Abaddon's 40K Bolter Is Rubbish

[YorkNecromancer]

Abaddon's Bolter Is Crap

Or

Why Chaos' Greatest Strength Is What Means It Will Never Win.

In many American cities (and in all Western cities to a lesser or greater degree), there is a war that is fought by two huge armies. It is fought daily, in a variety of urban landscapes, everywhere from the rooms of the city hall, all the way down to the ruined couches on the projects and council estates of the poorest boroughs.

One of these armies has extremely competent soldiers. Educated, intelligent and capable, these infantry are significantly more competent than those of the opposing armies. This is because the first of the two armies can call upon significantly better resources, supply lines, and, most importantly of all, has a significantly greater portion of control than their opponents. However, this army has two fatal flaws. The first is that the very control it commands, also stifles it; caught up in it's own successful use of bureaucracy, it can often be enslaved to that same system as effectively as it is its master. The other problem – and often the more damaging one – is that to rise to a position of command does not call for battlefield skills one might assume. In fact, it call for skills with politics; the ability to play the social games of those with real power. Needless to say, this does not attract the most competent soldiers, but the best politicians. Thus it is that the first of the two armies, seemingly the most powerful, is hamstrung by corruption amongst those who should be leading it. Effective at the bottom, but deeply inefficient at the top, this army could easily rise to dominance, were it not for the nature of its own internal bureaucracy.

The second of these two forces is almost the polar opposite of the first. It does not have the luxury of recruiting skilled combatants. Instead, it must make do with what it gets – less educated, less competent, more undisciplined, and more dangerous to one another than the enemy, these footsoldiers are usefully expendable, but unrefined. They lack the finesse of the first army, but compensate with numbers and enthusiasm. Where this army excels is in the strength of its leadership: because of the brutally Darwinian narture of its organisation, where every soldier is out for themselves, those who lead, lead by sheer personal competence. This is for a simple reason: those who do not, are killed by those they thought their lessers. Thus, this army is led very effectively, and this strength of leadership enables it to compete on an equal footing with the first army, despite the poorer quality of its military forces.

https://readjack.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the-wire-bench-mcnulty-bodie.jpg

We ordinarily refer to the first army as the police, and the second army as the drugs trade, and the interactions of these two bodies makes for a useful starting point when looking at the nature of the struggle between Chaos and the Imperium.

Why Is 40K Abaddon's Bolter Less Effective Than 30K Horus', Even Though It's The Same Gun?

Chaos is one of the iconic armies of 40K. It's a huge fan favourite, and because of that, it inspires real passion. People can get so lost in the ideas, that they kind of ignore the truth about what Chaos is and how it functions. Here's the thing: I really like the idea of Chaos armies, but I think I like them for different reasons to other people. What I'm aiming to do here is kind of break down for you why I like Chaos, and why I think it's cool. And what's important to get, is that the things that make it cool, are also things that limit it. They're things that get in the way, and mean that Chaos can kind of never win – not in a tabletop rules sense, more in a 'Damn Abaddon, 13 tries and you still can't get it right?' kind of way.

So here goes.

The thing about Chaos armies? It's that they're not an army. You cannot come to the table with the assumption that the Chaos forces are symmetrical to the Imperium's; it’s a classic case of what has come to be called asymmetric warfare: where two unequal forces engage one another.

But why is this? Chaos has Marines and Cultists and Daemons, and all sorts – why aren't they wiping the floor with the Imperium?

On the surface, it seems logical. There are Chaos Chapters, and Loyalist Chapters. There are Chaplains, and there are Zealots. There are Sergeants and there are Champions. There are Dreadnoughts and there are Helbrutes. The armies are functionally the same.

Aren't they?

In a word: no. No they aren't, and it's not because Chaos is EEEEEEEEVIL. It's because of something far more important; more important than anything else. Resources. Even in the 41st Millenium, money talks.

You see the thing about money? Money is just a medium of exchange. It's not 'real'; it's just something we all agree has a set value of exchange, in the same way we all agree that the word 'tree' refers to naturally occurring ligneous structures which survive through a process of photosynthesis. It's a useful term. Even if you don't use money (and I'm pretty sure a lot of people can't imagine Khorne Berzerkers reaching for their wallets) you still need stuff.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/JTF_Rita.jpg/800px-JTF_Rita.jpg

I mean, those Chain Axes need fuel, Bolters need shells, and every Chaos Marine except the Thousand Sons still needs to eat.

Hell, the Thousand Sons probably still need WD40.

So even if you don't use money, you still need to get stuff. Sure, you can steal those bolter shells… But what if you don’t have any to start with, your Chain Axes are all out of fuel, and those Power Armour batteries have gone flat? Good luck taking on those Astartes with their shiny-clean weapons that don't have daemon-gunk blocking the barrel.

I hope this illustrates my first, and most important point: Chaos is poor.

Sorry fanboys, but it's true – check out FFG's 'Black Crusade' RPG, and compare what a standard Chaos Marine gets compared to a Deathwatch as far as equipment goes. Why does the Chaos Havok start with a Heavy Stubber? Because bullets are cheap! Why do Cultists use autoguns instead of lasguns? Because bullets are cheap!

This is something that is part of the Chaos fluff – going rogue, you're like Genie in Disney's 'Alladin':


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v57sUtvNa5o

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!! Itty-bitty wallet.

Now, is this a bad thing, fluff wise? Depends how much you subscribe to our culture's notion that 'poor=worthless'. Personally, I think it's part of Chaos' appeal. You're not an army; you're a f***ing warband. You're a group of like minded lunatics, pledged to a Darker Power, determined to pull down the super-fascist regime of the Imperium through sheer chutzpah.

Now, does this mean that no Chaos dudes have money? Of course not. Someone's paying for the gold plated banding on those Black Legion's Terminator suits. That would be those aforementioned Champions: the hyper-competent leaders from my first example. They take all the cash for themselves, hence the Champions get all the kewl gear. Once you stop thinking of Chaos as 'The Imperium Only Evil' and start thinking of them as 'Terrorist Cell of Religious Madmen' or 'Death Squad For Criminal Kingpin', the comparison becomes clearer. That Chaos Lord isn't General Patton with horns (although there is always room for that guy, probably in the Iron Warriors); he's Tony Montana in power armour. A crazed lunatic who's risen to the top through sheer personal charisma, daring and skill with violence.

Of course, that does lead to the question: why is Abaddon's 40K bolter worse than Horus' 30K one, even though they're the same gun?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QSCsPxlh29E/UsFfqoVRCcI/AAAAAAAABEA/hinVZdjQ-5I/s1600/DSC_1556.JPG
Pictured: perfect conditions for complex electronic maintenance.

Well, ignoring the corrosive nature of the Warp (which is a BIG thing to ignore), the fact that 10,000 long-*** years have passed, that Horus' weapon was a bespoke bit of kit in the first place, well. We get to the problem of Predator Scientists.

If She Spends All Her Time Hunting, Who Makes The Predator's Spaceship?

It's that perennial plot-hole of science-fiction: the Noble Warrior Savage Aliens (Predators, Klingons, etc…) who have a culture built exclusively around horrible violence, yet somehow have access to absurdly advanced technology. Most sci-fi doesn't try to justify it. Who built the Predator's ship?

SHUT UP IT'S JUST A FILM GOD WHY DO YOU HAVE TO SPOIL EVERYTHING JUST SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE SIMMERING HOMOEROTICISM OF ARNIE SQUEEZING CARL WEATHER'S HAND GOD

http://media.giphy.com/media/pHb82xtBPfqEg/giphy.gif
Pictured: the last dying threads of your heterosexuality. You're welcome.

40K on the other hand, justifies quite a lot. Orks have genetically engineered racial memories; they can build stuff because their Abusive Precursors built the knowledge into them. I don't know about you, but I've always though that was a pretty damn cool bit of justification.

Chaos on the other hand? Well, they've got the Dark Mechanicus.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111029111227/warhammer40k/images/d/d3/Sk%C3%A4rmavbild_2011-10-28_kl._10.07.39.png

Yeah. Good luck dealing with these f***s.

++WHY ARE YOU HERE DARK LORD?++

"I require 47,392 round of bolter ammo. How much?"

++CALCULATING… DONE.++

++WE REQUIRE 300 OF YOUR MARINES FOR PROCESSING INTO RANDOM SERVITOR SPARE PARTS++

"Oh. Cool, I'll get right on that. But about fixing my cool Horus Talon?"

++CALCULATING… DONE++

++THE TEARS OF A FALLEN ANGEL COLLECTED IN A SILVER PHILTRE AND RENDERED FOR PROCESSING.++

"Hmmmm… Was not expecting that."

The Dark Mechanicus owe the Chaos Legions nothing. Not one thing. And in case you're unsure just how utterly scary these f***ers are, one of their characters in Horus Heresy book III had his flesh melted clean off his bones, at which point his metal endoskeleton killed the thing that did it, then went off and made himself a new, house-sized body made of stitched-together Servitors.

Then he got back to the hard work of building Chaos Titans.

CHAOS TITANS.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/b8/Chaos_Warlord_Titan_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120227204614

Your pissant little Chaos Lord does not scare them.

Especially not you, Night Lords, with your fruity little bat-winged helmets.

Here's the thing: Imperial technology may have stagnated, but it turns out if you're part of a culture where people are not trying to kill each other, you're pretty good at getting stuff done. Chaos doesn’t have that, so its technology has stagnated even further. Even Horus' prized Talon has been worn down by the grind of 10,000 years of constant warfare. It's an old doddering man of a gun, more symbolic artefact than weapon. Chaos' equipment is basically rusted, falling apart, and obsolete.

And that's just the stuff that doesn't have daemons in it who are actively trying to eat you.

I mean, someone on the front page of BoLS recently complained that Typhus' Manreaper has become Unwieldy since the Horus Heresy. Because apparently it makes no sense that the Herald of Nurgle, the daemon god of decay, might be living in conditions which are less than perfect for the correct maintenance of complex electronic equipment.

Seriously, Nurgle's soldiers are held together by rust and duct tape. I'm amazed Manreaper only has Unwieldy, instead of a rule that says it bends like foil the first time he hits someone with it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/98/Typhus_by_alex_boyd.jpg
Pictured: a man who places a high premium on proper weapon care and maintenance.

The problem with Chaos is that the Warp is an unbelievably hostile place to live; even without the daemons (DAEMONS FFS!) who live there constantly trying to kill you, the simple environment will wreck your equipment. Everything falls apart, and the only people who can put it back together are lunatics who live in the aforementioned stitched-together corpse bodies.

Which is before you even get to the final, and most severe problem Chaos has.

On Doctor Lecter's Disadvantages.

http://media.tumblr.com/2951cf9d792bd4cab4bb5394b3438d93/tumblr_inline_mfvph3FGUI1rt2432.gif

Here's the thing about being insane: it makes regular life really hard. I have OCD; genuine, f***-with-your-life OCD. It doesn't give me super powers, or a skill with attention to detail, or a need to clean my hands. What it mostly does is mean I can't listen to music I like (because if I do, people I love will die), as well as occasionally showing me traumatic images which then circle through my head like a catchy Beyonce song only more unpleasant. Sometimes, it can be so bad it's like a physical pain.

Mental health issues aren't glamorous, and they don't come with benefits. Mostly they just ruin your day, and make life more difficult.

Now, Chaos Marines are described as being insane. Which, yes, they probably are. However, a head full of PTSD does not an effective soldier make. Yeah, she might be really comfortable with killing, but that urge, that need to kill? It's going to get in the way of good strategy. And that's before you even get to the real lunatics; the ones who have to collect heads so they can offer them to their god's throne. Those guys just want to get into the fight as soon as possible, so your strategies have to take that into account.

Madness isn't a power. It's an annoyance at best, and a bloody liability at worst, and a Chaos army is an army that runs on madness. Remember the description at the start? Of an army of incompetent soldiers with hyper-competent generals? Chaos doesn't succeed because of its infantry; it succeeds in spite of them. It succeeds because its lords and mistresses are so utterly ruthless, they don't care about who gets got on the way to victory.

Daemonic ascension is the ultimate elevation of the self in 40K; the end of a lifetime spent in total megalomaniac self-love. The Chaos Lords who achieve it don't do so because they failed, or because they doubted themselves, or because they gave a s*** about the people who died in their name.

Chaos is about self-sufficiency and self love. It's about being the best YOU you can be, and sacrificing literally everyone else to your name.

And that's a weakness.

http://media.tumblr.com/2c4a33e88eabbeb06f9452dcd802de14/tumblr_inline_mfvp6olGVm1rt2432.gif

Psychopaths don't work well with others. They make stupid decisions, because their condition leaves them as fatal short-term thinkers. They have poor impulse control, and undermine themselves, their relationships, and what's worse, is that their condition means they are literally incapable of seeing this as a bad thing. They cannot understand that the power of friendship is an actual power with real, cogent benefits.

Or to put it another way, Voldemort didn't lose to Harry Potter. He lost to Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, Ron Weasely, Ginny Weasely, Mrs and Mr Weasely, Dobby The House Elf, Luna Lovegood, Neville 'Suprise, B!tches!' Longbottom, Severus Snape, Albus Dumbledore, Aberforth 'Aren't I Convenient' Dumbledore, Tonks, Professor Lupin, Professor McGonagall, That One Short Guy Who Taught Them The Vital Skill Of Levitating Powers, The Other Two Guys Warwick Davis Played, Hagrid, Buckbeak, Shovel Face...

The list goes on and on and on. For all his PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER, Tom Riddle's psychopathic nature let him down, because the psychopath always stands alone, and one will never be as mighty as many. This is especially true in 40K; if Horus couldn't get the job done with eight fully-equipped Legions of well-supplied Astartes, eight Primarchs, a metric frakton of top-level Dark Age Technology and the advantage of surprise, what hope does any modern, middling Chaos Lord have? Oh, he can be a pain, and he can sow all kinds of misery; she can bring lamentation and despair...

Then her second in command stabs her in the back as a sacrifice to Tzeentch because Chaos.

They're not called the Ruinous Powers because they bring you success...

Why Chaos' Greatest Strength Is Its Greatest Weakness

Chaos succeeds because it is so utterly brutal. It succeeds because the nature of the warband is Darwinian; the weak are weeded out, the strong prosper, and the best ascend to PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER the likes of which will never be achieved by mere mortals.

And all it costs is everything else.

Chaos indulges the individual at the cost of the group. Chaos, by it's nature, can only be as strong as it's strongest link. The Imperium, on the other hand, can field enough soldiers to take that one link down, and then it's game over for Chaos. Once that one heavy-hitting ubermensch is gone, what's left?

Some Marines with cheap guns, a handful of Champions who now have to fight one another to see who the new boss is, and fifty scared Cultists who are probably getting sacrificed to open the portal out of there.

And that's why Chaos is its own worst enemy; it always undermines itself. Even when it can afford the bullets, even when it can get the lunatics to do what the commander wants, even when it can keep ancient equipment from back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth working, it will always ultimately fall apart, because an army in which every soldier is doing their own thing isn't an army.

It's a herd of cats.

And good luck getting a herd of cats to do anything.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fsLNmPfZ6nk/Um21rieU9vI/AAAAAAAAeZ0/cxV0Bc1gbs0/s1600/Five+kittens+GIF.gif
Pictured: the 13th Black Crusade's most competent unit.

[AdamHarry]

http://i.giphy.com/7rj2ZgttvgomY.gif

[daboarder]

Interesting write up, Ill go into a more detailed run down later, but for now one thing that jumped out at me was your premise about the relationship between the dark mechanicus and chaos lords. The dark mechanicus is no more organized than the legions, so any individual mechanicus could have untold reasons why to be subservient to chaos lord XYZ.
Remember said chaos lord is a space marine of uncountable age who has been stewing in the raw stuff of the warp. probably a fair few of them can easilly go all wazzdakka on a titan or worse at their leisure.....and even moreso, they could probably just go exterminatus all over some little spitball planet said DM happens to be opperating on.

Chaos is all about pacts and not pissing of the neighbours too much unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure that he wont asend to daemon hood next tuesday and come back for more than just sugar (all while conducting your OWN nefarious schemes of course)

[rabscutle]

Brilliant good sir. Brilliant.

[White Tiger88]

Uh............have you happened to smoke anything odd tonight?

[daboarder]

Uh............have you happened to smoke anything odd tonight?

Nah york just lives and breathes the hobby like the rest of us. I dare say this has been stewing in his head for a while now

[Mr Mystery]

Interesting write up, Ill go into a more detailed run down later, but for now one thing that jumped out at me was your premise about the relationship between the dark mechanicus and chaos lords. The dark mechanicus is no more organized than the legions, so any individual mechanicus could have untold reasons why to be subservient to chaos lord XYZ.
Remember said chaos lord is a space marine of uncountable age who has been stewing in the raw stuff of the warp. probably a fair few of them can easilly go all wazzdakka on a titan or worse at their leisure.....and even moreso, they could probably just go exterminatus all over some little spitball planet said DM happens to be opperating on.

Chaos is all about pacts and not pissing of the neighbours too much unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure that he wont asend to daemon hood next tuesday and come back for more than just sugar (all while conducting your OWN nefarious schemes of course)

I think the main strength of the Dark Mechanicus is that they're beholden to no-one, but needed by everyone. Unless you're Abaddon, I very much doubt you'd survive the repercussions of attacking the DM. Not only do they have seriously unhinged toys (Mechanicum are bad enough for naughty 'oh yeah, we just found it today, honest weapons of filth, but their take on it doesn't involve the words 'no', 'morals' or indeed 'that might be a bit on the dangerous side of things' - but you'd have other Warbands who use that particular Forge for their gear - and I doubt they'd like you ruining their store credit.

[swoods]

Excellent post.

[Defenestratus]

I'm nominating this post as the "Best post to the forum in at least the last 4.375 years"

[Kirsten]

yup, pretty much. always annoys me when I see complaints of 'why don't chaos space marines have 'know no fear'?' because they are utterly selfish. they are not falling back because they are scared, they are falling back because their personal safety is at risk and they happen to very much like being alive. loyalists sacrifice themselves for the Emperor, chaos space marines are not terrible keen on sacrifice. they have discovered a big wide world of personal freedom and happen to rather like it.

[Dalleron]

Well done sir. Excellent article.

[Charon]

yup, pretty much. always annoys me when I see complaints of 'why don't chaos space marines have 'know no fear'?' because they are utterly selfish. they are not falling back because they are scared, they are falling back because their personal safety is at risk and they happen to very much like being alive. loyalists sacrifice themselves for the Emperor, chaos space marines are not terrible keen on sacrifice. they have discovered a big wide world of personal freedom and happen to rather like it.

While this is true, we are still playing a tabletop wargame with equal points on both sides.

Space Marine - 14 Points per Model
Chaos Space Marine 14 Points per Model

Space Marine and Chaos Space Marines comes with equal stats.
Space Marine gets ATSKNF, Combat Squads and chapter traits basically for ZERO points and do not suffer from the extremely selfish and self preserving "lol my champion has to challenge this Wraitlord" disadvantage.

No matter how the Fluff handles it, there has to be something that equals this disadvantages out on the battlefield. Most often this is done by point adjustments.
Right now it is not.

Basically it is ok not to have all the "cool" toys. However it is not ok to pay the same points for weaker versions of the same toys while lacking variety.

Basic SM unit comes with 3 transport options... CSM comes with 1.

If you play CSM vs SM the CSM player basically fields 500 points less then the SM player.
If we go to the Battlebrother list and count allies in, it get even worse as the Cultists come at the same cost as Imperial Soliders with worse Weapons, Armor and no Commands.

[Kirsten]

this is not a thread about points costs on the tabletop, take that elsewhere.

[Charon]

this is not a thread about points costs on the tabletop, take that elsewhere.

As he does compare 40k weapon rules with 30k weapon rules, it kinda is.
Because you cant just say "In the fluff you always lose so its ok that your rules are rubbish" which is what it comes down to.

[YorkNecromancer]

Actually, I do think the Chaos Codex has missed a trick. If I were writing the codex, I would work on some way of making chaos marine squads of twenty men a 'best' option, to reflect the idea that the advantage that chaos has is ruthlessness, and thus they spend bodies instead of bullets - kind of like a melee oriented imperial guard.

I would make it so that chaos weapons stay rubbish, that troops are plentiful and disposable, that the army tends not to use vehicles (all of which are the downsides of being chaos) while upping the power of the daemonic stuff, and making the elites significantly more elite than the elites of other armies.

Chaos terminators and the like should be absolutely terrifying, Chosen should make you crap your pants, and so on... But they should be very expensive.

Basically, the chaos codex is close to how I'd do a generic chaos codex, but I'd probably drop the cost of standard marines. They'd be 13 points in squads of five to ten, 10 points in squads of twenty. I don't know what else I'd do, but it would probably just involve making the melee units more survivable rather than better at killing. Chaos shouldn't really be using non-daemon vehicles.

[Charon]

Actually, I do think the Chaos Codex has missed a trick. If I were writing the codex, I would work on some way of making chaos marine squads of twenty men a 'best' option, to reflect the idea that the advantage that chaos has is ruthlessness, and thus they spend bodies instead of bullets - kind of like a melee oriented imperial guard.

In a game where MSU rule supreme and even IG tries to get small troops of specialists (Vets in chimeras) and a lot of tanks on the table...


I would make it so that chaos weapons stay rubbish, that troops are plentiful and disposable, that the army tends not to use vehicles (all of which are the downsides of being chaos) while upping the power of the daemonic stuff, and making the elites significantly more elite than the elites of other armies.

Having no mobility and no vehicles in a vehicle focused edition is suicide. Its one of the things that does hurt chaos a lot that they are footslogging while dirt cheap drop pods are readily available for loyalists.


Chaos terminators and the like should be absolutely terrifying, Chosen should make you crap your pants, and so on... But they should be very expensive.

Terminators in General are not terrifying. The only ones that are somewhat annoying are assault terminators with thunder hammers and stormshields... but you want them to have crappy gear so no 3++ either.


Basically, the chaos codex is close to how I'd do a generic chaos codex, but I'd probably drop the cost of standard marines. They'd be 13 points in squads of five to ten, 10 points in squads of twenty. I don't know what else I'd do, but it would probably just involve making the melee units more survivable rather than better at killing. Chaos shouldn't really be using non-daemon vehicles.

A single squad of 20 is still worse than 4 squads of 5 loyalits who do waste a whole lot of enemy fire for just killing 5 marines (where all of them have to die in order to actually achieve anything) not to speak of the possibility that 5 dead CSM mean they possibly run away in shooting or a single lost combat will probably kill the whole unit.

I really like your text but this is not how Chaos is pictured in the Fluff.

We could even argue that Chaos should have the more powerful psykers... having struck pacts with the warp and beeing unrestricted must have advantages.. but nope. Loyalists are straight out better.
Joining Chaos is a quest for personal power. So why do you join chaos if you end up a lot less powerful then you where before joining? Even the "ultimate reward" of transforming into a daemon prince is a joke on the table as you end up a lot weaker than your Chaos Lord was in his human form.

The codex is basically about Renegades who defected, went to the "heretic sales market" and traded in their post heresy power armor for pre heresy power armor, their Stormbolters for TL Bolters and sold their Assault cannons, Drop Pdos, Ironclads, LR Crusaders, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks,... for more spikes and decorative horns.
Just look at the crimson slaughter... a post heresy chapter that ended up in pre heresy wargear for no reason.

[This Dave]

One of the best descriptions of Chaos I've read in years. The Inquisition will be by shortly to find out how you know this. :) it explains why Chaos hasn't destroyed everything without the deus ex plot device or by simply saying that evil never wins.

Working on your ideas a good analogy for Chaos warbands might be pirates of the carribean. Not the movie, the actual ones from history. They follow the strongest or the one with the best ideas. They use what equipment they can find or steal or even what they were issued for those privateers that went rogue. They could even rule territory when they got their act together. But in the end they were taken down by the more organized navies of Britan and France.

[Charon]

But in the end they were taken down by the more organized navies of Britan and France.

Who employed the very same pirates as Freebooters and Pirates do still exist with military grade weaponry.
Britan, France, Spain and Portugese took them down by controlling/blockading every harbor where they could possibly land their ships. The Imperium is not very good in controlling the eye of terror or the Maelstrom.

All in all a Warband escaping from the eye to raid an imperial world is like stealing a bucket of water from the sea. Its basically the same that Tyranids/Necrons/DE/CWE do all the time. Still a black crusade, a hive fleet or a necron harvesting fleet has a big impact on the imperium.
The background and fluff is full of arcane devices, daemonic powers,... that chaos warbands employ while the tabletop is more like WW2 germany vs current US military on a 1:1 ratio in menpower and vehicles.

The whole idea with ancient chaos technology balancing out with current imperial technology did work out in 2nd edition where all weapons had special rules that were equal at the end.
With 3rd edition special rules got cut, points overall dropped by 50% (a Space Marine was around 30 points) and that did hurt chaos a lot.

Quick example. Reaper Autocannon vs Assault cannon.
Nowadays the Assault Cannon wins out significantly against the Reaper.
In 2nd edition the base stas were quite the same with a higher fire rate on the assault cannon. What was the trade off? The assault cannon had the nasty habit to jam often or even blow up while the Reaper was a sturdy piece of wargear that hardly ever jammed. At the end both were around equal despite having a very different profile.
Another example would be Plasma weapons.
The nasty habit of Plasma blowing up was a chaos rule back then. Yes Chaos plasma guns could blow up, imperial plasma guns did not. Tradeoff? Chaos could shoot with maximum power (2 profiles back then) every turn while imperial guns could only do so every 2 turns spending 1 turn to cool down.
Again, different rules but roughly equal.

[YorkNecromancer]

In a game where MSU rule supreme and even IG tries to get small troops of specialists (Vets in chimeras) and a lot of tanks on the table...

Which is why the Codex should reflect this; CSM shouldn't be the 'awesome melee' marines; they should be the 'disposable' marines. Forge World's 'Tyrant Legion' list did this whole thing perfectly.


Having no mobility and no vehicles in a vehicle focused edition is suicide. Its one of the things that does hurt chaos a lot that they are footslogging while dirt cheap drop pods are readily available for loyalists.

Exactly why there should be a point drop for twenty man squads. You should be fielding hundreds of marines, of whom, maybe ten make it out of the battle alive. Where did those hundreds of marines come from? Well, they're not Veterans Of The Long War; they're victims, recruited and forcibly modified into Chaos Marines, through tainted marine organs.

The Veterans of the Long War rule should be significantly more powerful to represent this, and it should increase the unit's points significantly. Basically, it should go:

VOTLW>Astartes Veterans=Chosen>Loyalist Marines>CSM, who are roughly = in power terms to Loyalist Scout Marines>Guard>Cultists

Regular CSM should be closer to SoB in terms of power, while VOTLW should be waaaaaaay beyond regular veterans.

Remember my whole thing about how one army is competent at the top and crap at the bottom? I get the feeling you only heard the bad part of that. Chaos Marines who survive should be utterly, utterly beyond regular marines for that exact reason.


Terminators in General are not terrifying.

And I'm afraid that's not relevant to the discussion here. I think the whole community agrees they should be, Loyalist and Chaos alike.


The only ones that are somewhat annoying are assault terminators with thunder hammers and stormshields... but you want them to have crappy gear so no 3++ either.

You didn't pay attention. I said that the elites keep the best stuff for themselves. So yes, the standard CSM get nowt... But the Terminators get it all.

What I would propose is that Chaos Termintor shooting should be exactly as terrible as it currently is. However, their melee ability should be ungodly. I would propose two ways to solve the fact it's not. Either:
a.) They can assault from Deep Strike (which in this case is daemonic power, rather than teleporters or
b.) Land Raiders as dedicated transports for Terminators ONLY. Because that's what Land Raiders should be for. It's fluffy, and it fits with the theme of 'the bosses keep the best stuff for themselves'.


A single squad of 20 is still worse than 4 squads of 5 loyalits who do waste a whole lot of enemy fire for just killing 5 marines (where all of them have to die in order to actually achieve anything) not to speak of the possibility that 5 dead CSM mean they possibly run away in shooting or a single lost combat will probably kill the whole unit.

As it should be. As I've stated, I don't believe bog standard Chaos Marines should be the equal of the Astartes; they lack the tools and the training, so they compensate with numbers, and should coss less points.

Chaos Marine veterans should UTTERLY outclass regular marines, because of the power and experience they have accumulated.

Both of these ideas fit with my initial statement. I think the thing here, is that you believe regular CSM are the equal of regular Loyalists and I don't, for the reasons outlined in my initial post. I think if regular CSM became the equal of regular Loyalists, it would kind of ruin the army, because Chaos should be an army of extremes, due to its highly Darwinian nature.

It shouldn't need stating, but they follow CHAOS: they shouldn't be standardised across the whole army! :)


We could even argue that Chaos should have the more powerful psykers... having struck pacts with the warp and beeing unrestricted must have advantages.. but nope. Loyalists are straight out better.

Totally agree, and this is shameful.

What it should be, as I stated: low level psykers are a total liability. They should be a complete risk to themselves and the unit they're with; occasionally they'll do incredible things, but mostly their heads explode. Again - Chaos beginners are crap.

However, the flip side is that Sorceror Lords should UTTERLY dominate every other species' psykers, even the Eldar. They've risen to the best through sheer force of will, and should be brokenly good.

And people like Ahriman? He should be verging on LoW, Primarch-level scary.


Even the "ultimate reward" of transforming into a daemon prince is a joke on the table as you end up a lot weaker than your Chaos Lord was in his human form.

Again, which is an issue of the codex.

Although, that does make a final, interesting moral to the whole idea of pursuing that goal: that losing all your humanity actually does diminish you. Taking Voldemort as the example again (because he's a useful parallel), he's phenomenally powerful, and in his essentially 'ascended' form (no nose, no sign of humanity, seven Horcruxes = effective immortality), he's still not that powerful.

It's probably why Abaddon never went daemon prince; he can achieve more damage as he is.

[daboarder]

I think the main strength of the Dark Mechanicus is that they're beholden to no-one, but needed by everyone. Unless you're Abaddon, I very much doubt you'd survive the repercussions of attacking the DM. Not only do they have seriously unhinged toys (Mechanicum are bad enough for naughty 'oh yeah, we just found it today, honest weapons of filth, but their take on it doesn't involve the words 'no', 'morals' or indeed 'that might be a bit on the dangerous side of things' - but you'd have other Warbands who use that particular Forge for their gear - and I doubt they'd like you ruining their store credit.

have you read talon of horus yet?

Its basically ADB putting his big post in life in the eye into a story.

speaking of that post.


For the sake of argument, let's say you're Helikaon the Mourner, a Word Bearer Chaplain in the Heresy. You're part of the command team, with Captain Vilus (maybe he has a personal title like Archon, Consul, Warleader, or whatever else), essentially co-leading the Company, within the Chapter, within the Host of several Chapters gathered together. Or just one Chapter. Or just half of several Chapters banded together for a few months, years, decades, or centuries. Maybe all of your Chapter/Company remnants form a Host for convenience, or because Lorgar ordered it, or you're part of the same Crusade Fleet, or you just owe each other bonds of absolute brotherhood. But let's focus on you, Vilus, and the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, named after one of the constellations above Colchis.

Maybe on the tabletop, you're a Chaos Lord, or a Dark Apostle, or something the rules don't have a place for, because they're merely the basic skeleton structure. Let's move on to what matters.

Time passes in the Eye of Terror, after the Sons of Horus lost you the war by running when their primarch fell. You spend a lot of that time fighting the Sons of Horus because they're weak, and getting weaker. You kill them and take their ships, their worlds, their fortresses, their equipment. You make deals with worlds settled by the Dark Mechanicum. Other times, you invade those worlds, for supplies. Other times, the Mechanicum breaks its oaths to you, screwing you over, because that particular forge, that particular leader, or that particular world had a better offer from a stronger warband. Or because they secretly hated you. Or because of reasons you never find out.

You raid the Imperium a lot, for vengeance, for supplies, for slaves, for territory, and to teach them the truth behind reality. Maybe you do it for the glory of the Dark Gods, to please them, or maybe you do it for yourself, to make life better, easier, or to humiliate a rival who lost a fight against that world or fleet in times past. Maybe you do it because there's pressure from several Aspiring Champions and squad leaders that are inciting the troops into believing you're weak, and should be removed from your position as co-leader. You need a show of strength. Soldiers need victories.

You make alliances with other warbands from other Legions, either to group together against a serious enemy, or because you share territory and genuinely consider yourself allies. You break some of those promises, because it suits you better to kill those former allies and take their land/resources/ships. You stick to some of the others for all time, because they're your Gods-damned brothers in arms, and you'd die for each other. Only, in 6,000 years of living in Hell; fighting daemons; and fighting the Imperium, you betray them because you learn they're about to launch a surprise attack on your stronghold, or your fleet. Only, maybe they weren't, and you were deceived by a third party. Or maybe they were, and they win, and you have to cut and run with half your resources and manpower squandered in a war you never saw coming. Much of the time, no matter what happens, you fight a lot of other warbands from other Legions. That's life in the Eye of Terror. For every alliance you make, there are half a dozen battles.

Sometimes, perhaps often, you come into contact with other Word Bearer Companies/Chapters/Hosts persecuting their own wars. Sometimes you join together, share news of the Legion's movements, and are the best of blood brothers. Other times, it isn't so simple. These Word Bearers worship a different cult and creed to you, and your beliefs aren't exactly gelling smoothly. There are as many cults and paths of Chaos faith as there are preachers and worshippers, and just as real world religions and branches of the same religion come into conflict, it happens with Chaos faithful, on a much, much, much larger and more frequent scale. Maybe they force aspects of Tzeentch worship you think makes them weak (maybe they use lore of the Change God to read the hearts of their enemies, which relies too much on Chaos rather than being strong on your own), and they think the way you see nobility in Khorne makes you deluded. They think you take one aspect of your faith too far, or not far enough. You think the same of them. You both have evidence of why the other warband is weak, because no group is ever without flaw. Maybe a tense negotiation between your leaders on neutral ground becomes a gunfight. Maybe your fleets meeting by accident becomes an all-out void war. Maybe you reconcile your differences in the name of the Word, and become brothers for 3,000 years, either answering each other's calls for aid, or even joining into a new Host, of two Chapters bonded by absolute loyalty. Maybe you become a new Host of a whole new Chapter, to reflect your new unity. Maybe that alliance lasts for a year. Maybe it lasts until the end of time.

Other times, other Word Bearer warbands call to you for aid. Sometimes you answer, because you're the same Legion, damn it, and that matters. But sometimes you don't answer, because if that Host gets butchered, you can move in and claim their territory and resources much easier. Other times, you answer their call for help because you owe them; they've saved you in the past. Other times, you don't answer because those guys are oathbreakers and heretics, dangerously disloyal - a nasty splinter faction - and you want them dead anyway. Other times, you want to aid them, but you don't make it in time, because the Warp's tides delay you; or because astropathy is near-strangers interpreting each other's vague dreams, and you miss the message in the nightmare of a million screaming children vomiting black sludge from their mouths while they're skinned alive by chanting monsters with liquid flesh made of pus and filth and liquified hate. Oh, that was a call for brotherhood by the Chapter of the Dark Maw? Not just one of the million nightmares you have, or the daemonic whisperings you hear all the time, because you live in Hell? Damn, Maybe you'll get it right next time.

Except maybe next time, the Host of the Dark Maw come and attack you for breaking an oath, and bring several other Word Bearer Hosts with them, who now despise you for breaking the loyalty of the Legion. They're loyal Word Bearers, but they see you as dangerously disloyal, a nasty splinter faction that needs to be destroyed.

Or maybe you interpret the message right, and are dying to come help your brothers, but the Dark Maw are fighting the Chapter of the Osseous Throne, and you owe both Chapters your allegiance, so the only honourable thing to do is sit the fight out. Or maybe you owe the Osseous Throne an actual oath of brotherhood from past campaigns, and can't take the Dark Maw's side. Maybe the Dark Maw are fighting a warband from another Legion - the Venemous Rune, of the Death Guard - who you've served with and allied with a dozen times. But you break your oath to your proven allies, because the Dark Maw are Word Bearers, and the Venomous Rune are not your Legion. It doesn't matter because Legions mean everything, and your loyalty is to your bloodline, knowing it will never fail you. Or maybe it does matter, this time. Maybe you take the field against a warband of your own Legion, because the alliances you've made in the years since the Heresy during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror are what matter most to you now.

At some point, Vilus is assassinated, leaving you in sole command of the Host. Now you're powerful, but vulnerable. Your own Aspiring Champions are, well, aspiring. They think they can lead the Legion better than you. They point to oaths you've broken to other warbands, or oaths you've made when many of your men wanted to break them; or battles that didn't go in your favour. It doesn't matter if their slander is fact or fiction, words spreads among the ranks. Some (many? most?) of your men harbour secret desires to replace you. Or maybe they don't, and you're just worrying over glances and stilled conversations and spy reports over nothing. You form an elite guard, but they take heavy casualties because they're in the front line of every battle. And can you trust them, really? They're in the best place to kill you if it came to an assassination. Maybe they're taking so many casualties becuse your other squads keep not deep striking in time. Is that intentional, or are the frequent repairs that need to be made really causing mechanical problems? Or is it that your ships are increasingly alive and sentient, half-daemon themselves, and harder to control with conventional means?

Maybe you focus on learning ancient , difficult-to-acquire lore on sorcery, to learn how to bind daemons more strongly and control your mutating fleet. Maybe you do it to control your own men. Only, the rebellion against you grows, because they say you're focusing too much on sorcery and not material conquering. Are you? You're sure you're not, but what choice do you have? This has to be done. You have to make things secure for the warband. Don't they see that? Maybe some do. Maybe others are still planning to kill you, and will have to learn in time that they'll go through the same doubts and plans when they're in your position.

A Crusade is called. Maybe one of Abaddon's Black Crusades; maybe one of the lesser Black Crusades called by another individual of great power; maybe just a massive raid into realspace. Awesome. During that campaign that lasts 24 years and covers battles on 30 worlds, you're attacked by a warband in an ambush, in the middle of a fight against the Imperial Guard, by an Emperor's Children warband you've never even heard of, and can't remember offending. Why? Are there reasons from the past? The Legion Wars? Maybe there are. Maybe they just saw a chance to screw a weaker enemy over, or force you to lose the fight so your Legion's reputation suffers. Maybe they were mercenaries hired by another warband to soften you up for a coming assault. Who hired them? You redouble your spy network, not knowing if you can trust them at all, since they said nothing about this ambush.

During the Crusade, you ally with a cabal of Thousand Son sorcerers, and their Rubric bodyguards. They have their own ships, resources, manpower - what a coup. They join your warband, though not really being sworn members of your Host, they'd still die for you and you'd die for them, with bonds forged in the crucible of war. They could've betrayed you a dozen times, but instead they risked everything to save you from one hell of a fight. You could've betrayed them and stolen their lore, but you saved them. Except maybe you didn't. maybe you need their sorcerous lore, so you slaughter them when they're weakened from helping you. No one will ever know. Right? Right? You get away with it cleanly, never hearing about the incident again, and enjoying their books of sorcery. The Thousand Sons never seek revenge. Except maybe they do, because they come 1,000 years later, in force, to annihilate you. Or maybe another Thousand Son warband thanks you for destroying their main rivals, and offers you a union. Maybe another Word Bearer warband gets annihilated almost to the last man, because the Thousand Sons believe it was them, not you, that did it.

Back in the Eye, at several points the Black Legion descends on your stronghold. Sometimes, they're weak and feeble, offering you a chance to join them. You refuse. Maybe you negotiate peacefully. Maybe you destroy them. Maybe you sense their leader is a weakling getting above his station, and has nothing to do with Abaddon, as many Black Legion warband leaders surely don't. Other times, they descend in force enough to annihilate your world/fleet/stronghold, and you have to run. Maybe they catch you, though. Maybe they offer you the choice to wear the Black, or be destroyed. Maybe you manage to escape anyway, and maybe your Host is finally destroyed. Maybe you join the Black Legion out of necessity, and despise it, gearing up to betray them later. Maybe you find that the freedom is liberating, and stick with it. Maybe you find that it's literally no different - your warband is still the same, your faith is still the same, and you have the same complicated relationships with Black Legion warbands that you did with Word Bearer warbands. Legion ties mean everything to some warbands, sometimes, and nothing to others, at other times. Maybe you spend endless campaigns devoting yourself to the Black legion, or the Word Bearers, only to find more and more warbands from your Legion are defecting, or betraying you, or never swore quite the same oaths as you did. Why didn't they? Or did they, and it's a misunderstanding? Remember that time you were assumed to be a traitor to your Legion? If they would just stop firing at you and killing your fleet, maybe you could sort it out. Wow, how many men did you just lose in a misunderstanding? Does the truth even matter anymore? If you keep hesitating and bleating about misunderstandings, you're going to be wiped out. How weak do you look in front of your men right now? Kill or be killed.

Say you remain a Word Bearer, though. maybe over time you seek the Black Legion out yourself, to swear loyalty the Legion that seems more unified in your sector of the Eye, or that is enjoying the greatest success and by far the strongest. Maybe you remain a Word Bearer, and the local Black Legion warbands are pathetic. You lord it over them, and demand tribute. Maybe some pay, others resist, and others run to tell Abaddon. maybe Abaddon listens, and descends with the Planet Killer. Maybe he ignroes the muling whines of weaklings, and you never hear from them again. Maybe the Warp eats them, or another warband, or daemons, or some ghost-god of the slain Eldar civilisation in whose ruins the Chaos Marines have made their empire.


While you're Crusading next time, your Host joins with two other warbands - a World Eater remnant, and a Death Guard warband. Of the three commanders, you have the most power and influence, so you become de facto leader of this Council of Three. Now you have Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines to use in battle. This is the life, right? Except, the three factions of this new warband don't get on. They ally for convenience, or because they recognise the advantage, or even just temporarily for the current Crusade - or even just for this single world, and once it's taken, they break apart. Or maybe you manage to hold them together, and they become your lieutenants. Maybe you keep them in line, despite fights constantly breaking out between the rank and file warriors, and the clash of faiths, and the constant pressure of your lieutenants to undermine you and take control themselves. Maybe you're a lieutenant, and the Plague Lord or Skull Champion leading your mixed warband is weak, or foolish, and you know you can lead better than he can. So you're the one working to take control. You're the commander of the Host of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, but your warband itself is known as The Triumvirate, and your reputation for success, brutality, cunning and competence begins to cast a long shadow. Other warbands can't match you in size, and begin to pay fealty, or serve you, or simply flee from you when you enter their territory. What was a simple alliance in a Black Crusade is now a legitimate warband. maybe it breaks down in a month. Maybe it lasts 8,000 years of ruthless, elegant destruction of its enemies.

But you remain a Word Bearer. Maybe you remain closely allied with your other commanders in The Triumvirate, but you prefer to spend most of your time working alone, and the bonds of the Triumvirate are only for times of great need. That makes perfect sense. Then it becomes like any other allegiance of warbands, and you go your merry way. maybe you never had anything to do with those pathetic deviants of broken Legions anyway.

Now you need new Marines. You find a sorcerous way to breed them. Or the technical facilities to clone them. Then you have to find the lore to clone them yourselves, or hire out a fallen Apothecary who is absolutely insane, for the right for him to help you. But he wants an artefact lost on on a daemon world, or deep in the Imperium, or he wants jhis former warband destroyed for exiling him, before he'll help. Maybe he does as you ask, but it doesn't work. Maybe he's too unreliable and screws it all up for you. Now you're even worse off, having lost the facility and all those resources and the time spent getting it all. Maybe he does it, and it actually works.

Or maybe you raid loyalist Chapters and harvest their fallen for gene-seed? Attacking Space Marines is risky, they don't just sit around and wait to be attacked. They strike planetary targets hard, then leave. They rarely defend, and usually attack. How do you find them? En route to a world? Lure them in? What if they bring overwhelming force and you risk destruction?

Then, of course, what about purity of bloodline? Does that matter to you? Does it somehow affect you on a deep level if your own future brothers are made from Imperial Fist or Ultramarine gene-seed? What will you do? Maybe you attack other Word Bearer Hosts and harvest their gene-seed. Maybe you cut deals with Mechanicum factions - which themselves are devolved into countless city-states and independent worlds in the Eye, allying and oathbreaking in much the same way the Chaos Marines are, and the same way every faction in 40K does to a lesser extent. Maybe you arrange to protect their forge world in exchange for them establishing gene-seed and Marine production facilities. What if they're invaded and you can't handle the scale of the war, though? Maybe you run, and earn the eternal enmity of the local Mechanicum. Maybe you get away clean. Maybe you fight it out, and suffer horrendous losses. Maybe you win easily, and the allies of the destroyed warband come for your head. Maybe the Mechanicum world you've agreed to serve screw it up, and you've just wasted a lot of time, ammunition and Marine lives in a campaign that profited you nothing.

You could fly to other Word Bearer territories, and ask to use their facilities. Maybe they welcome you with open arms. Maybe they've heard you're a traitor, or that you refused to come to the aid of another Host, or that you sinned in some way that you've never even considered or heard of. Maybe a greater Legion commander steps in and weighs in favour of your claim to gene-seed facilities. Maybe you're cast out, and have to sail elsewhere to deal with others. Maybe you approach one of the major power players, like Erebus or Kor Phaeron. Are they on campaign, in the Imperium, for countless decades? Are they on Ghalmek or Sicarus? Reaching either of those worlds - reaching any world in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom - where space and time obey no physical laws - may very well be something like the Odyssey, a journey that could take days or decades, under the eyes of malignant daemons through a realm that itself exists to possess, mutate, consume, and digest material life.

Maybe the human thrall-army that serves you mutates beyond usability. Maybe they're lured away by another cult's faith, to serve another warband. Maybe they're just slaughtered in a bad battle, and you're massively underpowered in terms of Traitor Guard and human slaves now. Raid prison worlds? Hmm, good body count, but they're untrained. Try to convert Guard regiments? Tough call, and it involves careful sedition work, and your only trusted co-leaders spending years away from the warband to convert the human armies. Maybe you could send your less trusted underlings to do it, but then who would the new humans serve? Would they be an army secretly waiting to betray you?

Maybe you agree to serve a Black Legion warband for sixty-six years, to have your Apothecaries and Fleshsmiths trained in the mastery of Berzerker surgery. Now you have Berzerkers. Awesome. But what if another Word Bearer warband considers that a dangerous collusion with an enemy Legion, despite the fact you've been perfectly loyal and you know a dozen other warbands have done the same? Now you have another fight on your hands, with fanatics as dangerous as you are. Maybe the Black Legion warband you've allied with betrays you, and reveals nothing at all. Maybe they're destroyed from internal conflict and the new leader refuses the old deal his predecessor made. Maybe over time, your Host and the Black Legion Company become bound in blood-loyalty, and form a joint warband of two factions. Maybe you get tired of them after three days and replenish your recent losses by stealing their ships in an ambush.

What if Vilus doesn't die? What if he starts grooming other co-leaders as the warband grows in size? Maybe he means to replace you. Maybe you most loyal warriors keep telling you they know a betrayal is coming, that the whole warband may have to choose sides. Maybe you act first, and start the civil war. Maybe Vilus does. The warband breaks apart, and the survivors go their own ways. Maybe both warbands call themselves the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound. Maybe you surrender the name, or Vilus does, because he no longer cares about the old traditions.

What if Vilus encourages contests of competency between his underlings? You lose favour by failing wars, or gain favour by successful missions. it's all a game to him. He's no leader at all. You could command the warband and focus it to better, more meaningful ends. Right? Right? It's not like almost every other Aspiring Champion in the warband thinks the same thing, after all. Right?

While you're away raiding the Imperium, what happens to your stronghold? Is it hidden well enough in the Eye of Terror? Maybe it is. What if time and space distorts and reveals it, though? Do you leave a garrison of your best troops to defend it? Maybe you do, then you take the battlefield without your best warriors. Maybe you return and another warband has still destroyed your base, or occupied it for themselves. So begins a costly war to retake your fortress, or carry on as a fleet-based warband, forever suffering a lack of resources compared to those with fully operational and well-supplied homeworlds. Maybe you go to Sicarus as just one of the Hosts using it as a base. You still share the territory with countless warbands that have an eternity of complications, grudges, oaths, betrayals and future treacheries on their consciences. You're certain half of them even here, in your Legion's deepest claimed territory, are only united by strong leaders that demand they stay united, and enforce it by death. So many warbands seem honestly bound by brotherhood, but look over there - the fleet of the Host of the Shrieking Wound. You know they failed to come to your aid a few centuries ago, and betrayed the Legion at the Battle of Ziar by taking too long to commit to the fight. Maybe they say the same things about you. Tension is always rife, even between blood-bound allies, for glory in the eyes of the Legion's power players, and in the eyes of the Gods.

Maybe you stay. Maybe you go. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

That's what it's like to be a Chaos Marine.

Its not "Maybe" in indecision, its maybe as in this time you choose one path the next time you choose another. this also all applies to the dark mechanicus as well

[daboarder]

Although, that does make a final, interesting moral to the whole idea of pursuing that goal: that losing all your humanity actually does diminish you. Taking Voldemort as the example again (because he's a useful parallel), he's phenomenally powerful, and in his essentially 'ascended' form (no nose, no sign of humanity, seven Horcruxes = effective immortality), he's still not that powerful.

It's probably why Abaddon never went daemon prince; he can achieve more damage as he is.
No not really, the diminishment of and ascended marine shouldnt be a "power" thing, they are diminished because they become slaves to their gods, utterly beholden to them. Abbadon hasn't been offered daemonhood by the combined gods due to the whole belakor thing and also does not want to be beholden to anyone

[YorkNecromancer]

Love the story of Helikaon the Mourner. Perfect summary of why it sucks to be a Chaos Champion: no matter how powerful you become, no matter how well you can play each Ruinous Power off against the other, no matter how many toys you acquire or worlds you seize, you'll always stand alone.

Utterly, utterly alone.


the diminishment of and ascended marine shouldnt be a "power" thing, they are diminished because they become slaves to their gods, utterly beholden to them. Abbadon hasn't been offered daemonhood by the combined gods due to the whole belakor thing and also does not want to be beholden to anyone

Oh, I know. :)

I just think there's something nice about it thematically; all that work, all those millenia so sure that the Emperor was mistaken, that you were right... And you were, just not the way you thought.

Yeah, Chaos is neither a plaything nor a friend. It's an abusive spouse who lies and lies and keeps on lying until one day, you're lying dying on the kitchen floor wondering what you ever did wrong. And that's the joke: you did everything right, and it didn't matter anyway.

[Charon]

Which is why the Codex should reflect this; CSM shouldn't be the 'awesome melee' marines; they should be the 'disposable' marines. Forge World's 'Tyrant Legion' list did this whole thing perfectly.

Problem with disposable marines is that you cant assign any realistic point costs to them. The spectrum is too narrow.



Exactly why there should be a point drop for twenty man squads. You should be fielding hundreds of marines, of whom, maybe ten make it out of the battle alive. Where did those hundreds of marines come from? Well, they're not Veterans Of The Long War; they're victims, recruited and forcibly modified into Chaos Marines, through tainted marine organs.

Even if you drop their points in groups of 20 they are still weaker than a marine force of equal points. Not because of their stats but just because you have a big clumped up unit that can get no mission objectives done, is easy to break and cant get anywhere on the table.


The Veterans of the Long War rule should be significantly more powerful to represent this, and it should increase the unit's points significantly. Basically, it should go:

VOTLW>Astartes Veterans=Chosen>Loyalist Marines>CSM, who are roughly = in power terms to Loyalist Scout Marines>Guard>Cultists

Regular CSM should be closer to SoB in terms of power, while VOTLW should be waaaaaaay beyond regular veterans.

Remember my whole thing about how one army is competent at the top and crap at the bottom? I get the feeling you only heard the bad part of that. Chaos Marines who survive should be utterly, utterly beyond regular marines for that exact reason.


Does not translate into tabletop. Veterans are shunned for the same reason. You can have an ungodly WS10 I10 S10 T5 A10 chaos space marine vet for just 40 points per model. Dirt cheap. He also dies as fast to a plasma gun as an imperial solider. Elites do not work in this game - every weapon is an equalizer.
Thats also the reason why big squads do not work. Difference between a 20 men CSM squad and 4x5 men CSM squads? A wyvern battery can kill the former in one turn while it needs 4 turns to kill the latter. 20 CSM waste a lot of shots when they try to get rid of these 5 IG vets, 4x5 do not.
It does not matter how you price them (unless you price them extremely unreasonable low) small squads will ALWAYS come out on top even if they are far more expensive pointwise.


You didn't pay attention. I said that the elites keep the best stuff for themselves. So yes, the standard CSM get nowt... But the Terminators get it all.

What I would propose is that Chaos Termintor shooting should be exactly as terrible as it currently is. However, their melee ability should be ungodly. I would propose two ways to solve the fact it's not. Either:
a.) They can assault from Deep Strike (which in this case is daemonic power, rather than teleporters or
b.) Land Raiders as dedicated transports for Terminators ONLY. Because that's what Land Raiders should be for. It's fluffy, and it fits with the theme of 'the bosses keep the best stuff for themselves'.



As I pointed out Elite Versions of units do not work in this game. Take a look at Darkangels.
LR is a dedicated Transport for Terminator. But as Chaos does only get the standard LR (same price but no PotMS) you cant even put in more than 5 amazing terminators.


As it should be. As I've stated, I don't believe bog standard Chaos Marines should be the equal of the Astartes; they lack the tools and the training, so they compensate with numbers, and should coss less points.

Chaos Marine veterans should UTTERLY outclass regular marines, because of the power and experience they have accumulated.

Both of these ideas fit with my initial statement. I think the thing here, is that you believe regular CSM are the equal of regular Loyalists and I don't, for the reasons outlined in my initial post. I think if regular CSM became the equal of regular Loyalists, it would kind of ruin the army, because Chaos should be an army of extremes, due to its highly Darwinian nature.

It shouldn't need stating, but they follow CHAOS: they shouldn't be standardised across the whole army! :)

As I already said, does not work out.




Again, which is an issue of the codex.

Although, that does make a final, interesting moral to the whole idea of pursuing that goal: that losing all your humanity actually does diminish you. Taking Voldemort as the example again (because he's a useful parallel), he's phenomenally powerful, and in his essentially 'ascended' form (no nose, no sign of humanity, seven Horcruxes = effective immortality), he's still not that powerful.
It's probably why Abaddon never went daemon prince; he can achieve more damage as he is.

Actually he is THAT powerful. And a daemon prince is an awful lot more powerful than any mortal around. Thats why they want to ascend. True immortality and nearly godlike power.
Nobody knows why Abaddon has not ascended yet and its not his choice. No CSM can ascend or deny it just by choice, Chaos decides if you are worthy which can be rather... hmm.. chaotic. You can turn a daemon prince for slaugthering 3 farmers on a backwater planet because your god did like the number and how their clothing and blood matched with the color of the soil and you can get ignored despite having enslaved a whole sector and singlehandedly slain 20 SM chaptermasters at once because it was so... mundane.

[daboarder]

I think you guys are forgetting that theres no such thing as a disposable marine.
These are for the most part the guys that BUILT the imperium, they aren't nor should they be, push overs.
They have 10,000 years of experience in warfare, they are death on legs

[YorkNecromancer]

I think you guys are forgetting that theres no such thing as a disposable marine.
These are for the most part the guys that BUILT the imperium, they aren't nor should they be, push overs.
They have 10,000 years of experience in warfare, they are death on legs

I kind of think that should change; like I say, make the Veterans of the Long War rule utterly terrifying (Ld10, maybe increase BS, WS, option to buy Artificer armour, Furious Charge, Rage, Rampage for some outrageous cost), because they are the oldest, most experienced, and clearly most dangerous of all marines. They should be the true former Astartes, along with the Cult Marines (who should all have VOTLW as standard). Make Veterans of the Long War into the equal of something like GK Paladins, only without the Terminator armour; when they get the Terminator Armour? They have no Imperial equivelant. They've gone from 'Marine' to 'Force of Nature'.

HOWEVER, regular CSM should be a bit like Kor Phaeron: captured humans forcibly altered into Marines in order to build up the numbers of the warband. They've got the implants, but not the experience or equipment.

It would be an excellent way to differentiate the CSM codex, rather than just having it be another 3+ Marine army book. Every Chaos player gets to have those Movie Marine-level Chaos monsters they dream of, but they don't completely unbalance the game, or become too commonplace. Which they wouldn't be, given how few of them would be left after 10,000 years of hard living in the warp.

Not to mention, there IS past precedent for this kind of army. The Tyrant's Legion list from Forge World is almost exactly like this.

As a side note, I'm fairly sure that to any Chaos Lord, at the end of the day, EVERYONE is disposable, Marine or not. People are just tools, assets to get the job done and little more.

[Charon]

HOWEVER, regular CSM should be a bit like Kor Phaeron: captured humans forcibly altered into Marines in order to build up the numbers of the warband. They've got the implants, but not the experience or equipment.

Kor Phaeron (same like Luthor) is an odd EXCEPTION. They are special because they are no space marines. CSM are fully grown Marines. Dead Sky, Black Sun does describe how some of the Iron Warriors get their new Recruits. Its all in the Fluff.


like I say, make the Veterans of the Long War rule utterly terrifying (Ld10, maybe increase BS, WS, option to buy Artificer armour, Furious Charge, Rage, Rampage for some outrageous cost), because they are the oldest, most experienced, and clearly most dangerous of all marines.

And die to a Plasma gun like every other standard marine.
Stacking up special rules is absolutely worthless. We already have this. The dreaded Warp Talons. 5 Million special rules, power claws, jump packs.... and nobody ever uses them because they die like flies. You are suggesting more overpriced and useless units... the codex is full of them already.


Not to mention, there IS past precedent for this kind of army. The Tyrant's Legion list from Forge World is almost exactly like this.

Interesting that you mention this.
The Tyrants Legion is nothing like you describe it. The Tyrants Legion is SPACE MARINES with chapter traits, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics and allied imperial guard tanks and troops. Maybe the one or the odder odd spcial rule but in its core its a pure SM + AM in one AOP thing.

[Captain Bubonicus]

I'm just gonna leave this here:

https://d1u1p2xjjiahg3.cloudfront.net/3b3d5668-4982-440a-9306-70c1342dd45a.jpg

[marful]

I like how one of the core of the arguments about why Chaos is poor is Rogue Trader RPG starting money.

Never mind the fact that 99.99999999999% of the Rogue Trader rpg is about acquiring (stealing) stuff from people...

[Arkhan Land]

Nah york just lies and breathes the hobby like the rest of us. I dare say this has been stewing in his head for a while now

cough cough

the rest of us

cough cough


to york, great read!

[daboarder]

cough cough

the rest of us

cough cough


to york, great read!

was meant to be lives* in that statement

[Mr Mystery]

No not really, the diminishment of and ascended marine shouldnt be a "power" thing, they are diminished because they become slaves to their gods, utterly beholden to them. Abbadon hasn't been offered daemonhood by the combined gods due to the whole belakor thing and also does not want to be beholden to anyone

Yarp, pretty much this. Especially the whole Belakor, and the God's collective inability to control him!

Not sure if it's been brought up, but ATSKNF and the lack of it in Chaos....

To me, that's a direct result of their turning renegade. We know all Loyalist Marines are 'psycho-conditioned' as part of their training, and the process of making a Marine. Seems very likely a large part of that, given there was no such bravery during the Heresy, is as a result of The Heresy. Whatever they do, it's done to increase the loyalty of the Marines - duty above self, death before dishonour and stuff. Modern Marines are nothing like their Legion predecessors it would seem - reading the various Novels, modern Marines are almost autistic. Chaos and Legion Astartes? Much more human in their motivations.

When modern Marines go renegade, that psycho-conditioning is broken. They cease to be 'Battle Brothers' and become closer to the humans they used to be. Suppressed emotions and concepts come back to them. It's not cowardice that removes ATSKNF - it's a lack of brainwashed self sacrificing stupidity. In the face of overwhelming odds, they no longer have 'duty' or 'honour' to hold them back from realising a when a lost cause is a lost cause - they'll pull back or pull out altogether, regroup, come up with a new plan.

[Denzark]

An awesomely well thought out post Yorkie. I think there are a couple of errors here and there about the nature of Chaos though.

The utterly mind bending and beyond the laws of physics nature of both the warp and the eye of terror means that not all of Chaos weapons/materiel are in a state of constant degradation. For some of the weapons it would be quite the opposite. They would be enhanced by their very presence in the same space time continuum. For some of the planets the 10000yrs since HH has gone in a second so the equipment is crusade era new. For some of the planets everything has been in status, or actually become impervious to degradation. Whilst I agree entirely that the amount of rust on nurgle stuff means a bolter round going past them within 3 metres should make them fall apart, you are forgetting (seemingly) how the innate magic of chaos renders all bets as to their equipment being aged, off.

There is nothing to deny that Abaddon's kit shouldn't have stayed in tip-top as new condition because of the very nature of the warp. Or that it has all been maintained by a dark mechanicus to the point of improvement. Or that he sucker punched a daemon who now polishes it into brilliance. 10000 in the most corrupting area of space doesn't mean it is corruption by the actual meaning of the word.



Next, the armies and tactics. There is absolutely nothing to say that in the face of the labyrinthine Empire that small formation tactics aren't conducted in such a way to represent absolute tactical brilliance. Some Chaos commanders may not be constricted by imperial battle dogma and may be far more careful with their manning then say, the DKoK. Look at the Gaunt's Ghost stories with the traitor general. Much of what seemed to be being done was to access and improve upon imperial tactics. I think to write off all Chaos forces as warbands rather than armies, is a very surface level analysis particularly given some will be just-turned loyalists.



Next, types of equipment and going for the cheap option. Again I think this is a very shallow look at the possibility. Again in GG whilst infiltrating behind enemy lines there was commentary about how some of the captured sectors seem to mirror imperial society and he is surprised by economy, grand strategy and gathering of war materiel. The ravening horde sometimes happens, but fully mechanised warfare using imperial pattern kit is also possible and indeed common - especially in areas like the Sabbat worlds where Chaos has been in charge of swathes for decades - but those worlds are outside the EoT. Also on equipment, again, Chaos are not constrained by adeptus mechanicus dogma- they make kit work however the hell they like and their methodology rewards success and only punishes failure. Imperial equipment should be what is going backwards from the crusades, with dogma, age and loss of STCs. Chaos mechanicum and design should be revolutionary and cutting edge because they have no self imposed limitations. Legions went into the Eye with legion level stocks and the bolter is still the main side arm of the forces of chaos. They are not idiots and no military force, especially not one with 10000 years of gene-forged experience and tactical mastery, equips as standard a weapon they have trouble securing sufficient stockpiles for. I therefore reckon on this basis that CSM have more than sufficient bolt shells.


Finally, on the subject of ATSKNF. The HH books make numerous references to fear being 'bred out' of SM at the genetic level. It seems to me to be a suppression, both physical and psychological, of the innate fight or flight reactions in everything. I must submit that saying CSM are too selfish/savvy or what ever, to take keep fighting no matter the odds, is over simplifying it. It may be a variation on geneseed, it may represent a corruption of the physical. But here's the kicker - ATSKNF is not real bravery. It is medically induced bravery. So to say CSM don't do ATSKNF from a conscious decision rather than a physical difference, is missing something.

[Charon]

it's a lack of brainwashed self sacrificing stupidity. In the face of overwhelming odds, they no longer have 'duty' or 'honour' to hold them back from realising a when a lost cause is a lost cause

In the light of Khornates screaming "Blood for the Bloodgod!" while getting obliterated by Bolter rounds and not caring if it is their own blood spilled in khornes name or their own skulls at his throne and suicidal Chaos Champions who MUST challenge everything and everyone no matter the odds, that is a strange conclusion.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Berzerkers are Fearless IIRC, right? I think only Noise Marines aren't, which makes sense IMO.

[DWest]

Berzerkers are Fearless IIRC, right? I think only Noise Marines aren't, which makes sense IMO.
Noise Marines are Fearless as well. All 4 Cults are, and honestly, all 4 Cults should have FNP as well, both for fluff reasons* and to make it so that Nurgle isn't the guaranteed best choice.

*Noise Marines enjoy the pain, Berzerkers just get angrier, and there's nothing inside a Rubric Marine to feel pain with.

[Charon]

Berzerkers are Fearless IIRC, right? I think only Noise Marines aren't, which makes sense IMO.

Berzerkers are a special unit type and by far not the only worshippers of Khorne. Everyone with a mark of Khorne is in fact dedicated to (surprise) Khorne and his ways.

[YorkNecromancer]

Berzerkers are a special unit type and by far not the only worshippers of Khorne. Everyone with a mark of Khorne is in fact dedicated to (surprise) Khorne and his ways.

Doesn't mean they're going to be Fearless. Religious faith is a spectrum, not an absolute. Not every Christian is free of doubts; not every Muslim has cast-iron faith. There's a difference between a guy who goes to church, likes what he hears and mostly agrees, and a guy who pickets military funerals with a sign saying 'GOD HATES <INSERT GROUP I DISAPPROVE OF>'

Regular Khorne Cultists? Those are the guys who go to church Sunday, nod all the way through the sermon saying 'Mm-hmmm, that's right' when the preacher mentions 'Blood for the Blood God', then go to the football game to cheer on the violence. They believe, their faith gives them strength, and they'll fight as best they can, but at the end of the day, they don't have heads full of Butcher's Nails. They're just regular guys with an unfamiliar religion, still capable of thought, doubt, existential crises of faith. They're on equal footing to Imperial Guard (who may believe in and love the Emperor, but who still need a Commissar to 'remind' them that running away is disapproved of. And even a Commissar doesn't make an Astra Militarum unit Fearless!)

Berserkers are Westboro Baptist-level lunatics. They don't think any more; they just act.

All a Mark means is that the squad has a religious icon with mild supernatural power attached to it. Maybe it makes them more fearless; maybe it doesn't. You get to find out when they pass or fail their morale test... Unlike Berzerkers, who to all intents and purposes, are so completely, horribly insane, they barely count as human any more. They're just a chainaxe with legs attached.

[Psychosplodge]

Very nicely done Yorkie, while there's bits I'd pick at as too much of a sweeping generalisation, I think others have already covered them. But overall a brilliant piece. It's definitely as good a reason as any why thirteen black crusades have failed...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, there's a big difference between Khornate followers, and the likes of the World Eaters. Not all Khornate are gibbering madmen who simply charge in and mow stuff down, the same as not all Nurglite Marines are fully imbued with his blessed resilience to pain.

So it makes sense for Cult Marines to be Fearless, because their souls are owned wholly by a God, and this turns them into singular proponents of a certain emotion or state. Sensation, disease, rage or dustiness, there's nothing of their original selves left to feel fear with.

Hence why Abaddon doesn't want to belong to a God, because when you do so, your individuality and essence are bled away to be replaced with and consumed by whatever emotions or sensations that God represents. A Daemon Prince is both the pinnacle of personal achievement by gaining immortality through loyal service, and a curse in that your soul and mind belong to that God, and you effectively become an extension of their will.

Of course, most of those who work so hard to become a Daemon Prince did so because they want to epitomise that God's nature anyway...

[Charon]

Doesn't mean they're going to be Fearless. Religious faith is a spectrum, not an absolute. Not every Christian is free of doubts; not every Muslim has cast-iron faith. There's a difference between a guy who goes to church, likes what he hears and mostly agrees, and a guy who pickets military funerals with a sign saying 'GOD HATES <INSERT GROUP I DISAPPROVE OF>'

Regular Khorne Cultists? Those are the guys who go to church Sunday, nod all the way through the sermon saying 'Mm-hmmm, that's right' when the preacher mentions 'Blood for the Blood God', then go to the football game to cheer on the violence. They believe, their faith gives them strength, and they'll fight as best they can, but at the end of the day, they don't have heads full of Butcher's Nails. They're just regular guys with an unfamiliar religion, still capable of thought, doubt, existential crises of faith. They're on equal footing to Imperial Guard (who may believe in and love the Emperor, but who still need a Commissar to 'remind' them that running away is disapproved of. And even a Commissar doesn't make an Astra Militarum unit Fearless!)

Berserkers are Westboro Baptist-level lunatics. They don't think any more; they just act.

All a Mark means is that the squad has a religious icon with mild supernatural power attached to it. Maybe it makes them more fearless; maybe it doesn't. You get to find out when they pass or fail their morale test... Unlike Berzerkers, who to all intents and purposes, are so completely, horribly insane, they barely count as human any more. They're just a chainaxe with legs attached.

Dont ever make the mistake of comparing real world belives in "imaginary friends" and some pice of fiction where these "imaginary friends" truly exist in every way.

Regular Khorn Kultists as you describe them WOULD NOT GET MARKED!
The mark is not some icon they carry or some half-assed lip service. It is indeed a mark of ownership on your very soul. It is this mark that makes you suffer the consequences if you fail your warp master, it is this very mark which makes you into a blood drinking, violence loving monster because through this mark you feel like drinking the finest wine when doing so.
This is not some real world religous system with some fanatics sprinkled in the rather indifferent crowd of belivers. This is the "real thing" where you either strike the pact and get marked with all consequences or you do not.
But havin a mark is already the prove that you are a full grown fanatic/lunatic.

Most people are not marked in WH40k. Bloodpact? Not marked. Regular Soliders indoctrinated with Khornes ways, but not bearers of daemonic marks. Their boss? This one belongs fully to Khorne... irrevocable.
Beeing a berserker has nothing to do with a mark of Khorne alone. It is the World Eaters neuro-surgery they employed already pre-heresy in combination with the Mark that makes them Berserkers.

As soon as you MARK a unit it has struck an irrevocable pact and suffers the consequences for it. Power for servitude. Servitude in the only way that is acceptable for the patron god.
With the mark you are now a Champion of your patron god, a recognized servant devoted for the rest of his existence to championing the cause of that Chaos god in the mortal universe.

[Sly]

Great post, Yorkie. As has been evidenced, there may be a bone to pick with details here and there, but overall a brilliant piece.

[AndrewDart]

The OP is a very well-written argument, but I must concede that it is simple a strongly worded opinion. The very nature of the warp could (or just as easily couldn't) make weapons or even soldiers persist without need of fuel, maintenence, etc. Magic warp ammunition could just as easily manifest in daemonic ammunition stores as it could be that chainaxes don't run on fuel at all - but rather pure unadulterated hatred (!).

I am in 100% awe of the thoroughness of the initial post, and admire the devotion to the genre, but I wouldn't call it more than a very specific theory as to why a weapon's stats are worse in 40k as compared to 30k.

The convenient thing about Chaos is that the argument that "the warp did it" is usually the most accurate and credible. It's definitely a deus ex machina situation - but one that doesn't cheapen the genre, IMO.

[Daveisdvd]

I enjoyed the article a lot. Very entertaining and pretty spot on personality wise as far as I'm concerned. I still think there's some room for complexity and depth to the way War bands function. If you've read the Blood Gorgon novel you'll get a very good feel for how a traitor Chapter could still work.

Also agree with Andrew above that the warp can make bolters that don't use real ammo, they could function on hatred or be powered by the tears of recently murdered children. Whatever the case I do agree that for chaos to really threaten the imperium again will be difficult but we'll see where the fluff takes us as things unfold this year :)

[miteyheroes]

I love this post. Definitely feels very ADB influenced. As someone who loves the Night Lords trilogy and the new Talon of Horus book, this is a goooood thing.

[YorkNecromancer]

Dont ever make the mistake of comparing real world belives in "imaginary friends" and some pice of fiction where these "imaginary friends" truly exist in every way.

Okay.

As long as you don't make the mistake of assuming the Chaos gods treat all their servants equally. :)

That was a joke, BTW. :)

Look Charon, I think what this is? Is a case of Depending Upon The Writer.

You know how according to Matt Ward, the Ultramarines were the greatest of all chapters? And how according to Dan Abnett, they're just one of many - a competent, decent one, but not absurdly so?

Every writer has things they think are cool. Some people love OTT, super-cinematic fights. Others find more joy in grounded realism. Compare, if you will, Marvels' 'Avengers' to 'Batman Begins'. now, ignoring the merits of each, I think we can definitely agree that both are enjoyable films. But - and here's the thing - for different reasons. I liked 'Avengers' because it was full-on, four colour superhero action; I liked the giant space aliens, and the silly stuff, and even Loki's absurd costume, which - somehow - was cool as hell.

On the other hand, I liked 'Batman Begins' for it's dedication to realism. Because it took an idea as completely stupid as Batman (and whatever you might think, Batman is, at heart a pretty crazy idea) and asked one simple question: 'If Batman was real; really, actually real? How would he exist?'

Neither is a bad film. You may prefer one. You may prefer the other. You may hate them. But taken alone, ignoring everything else (comics, sequels, reboots, yadda yadda...) both tell a valid story well.

Your arguments about Chaos? You want 'Avengers'. You want big, colourful action. You want to escape into high fantasy. you get joy from the sheer turbo-powered fun of it all.

I want 'Batman Begins'. I want gritty realism; I want a real sense that actual stuff from real life plays a role. I don't want to escape. I want to deconstruct the idea. I want to take it apart and explore what makes it work. I don't get joy from the explosion. I get joy from understanding.

So you're not wrong. You can have those lunatics you talk about. But you know what?

I don't think I'm wrong either.

Here's the bottom line: all this stuff?

IT'S MADE UP.

Which means that the only objective Truth is the stuff that resonates for us personally. You want those crazed, super-powered villains? Cool. Have those. Just don't force me to have 'em, because I don't like them as much as my more grounded, believable ones. I want Cultists who are more human. I want them scared and afraid and desperate, because the more human they are, the more interesting they become.

I'm a middle-aged man. I don't want stories about heroes and villains. I want stories about humans.

Should those be the only stories that are told? OF COURSE NOT.

40K is a BIG fictional universe, Charon. It's big enough for your ideas, mine, and everyone else's besides. Or to put it another way: why limit anyone's creativity? As I said in the very first post here, I just wanted to explain why I thought Chaos was cool. You disagree? You think I'm wrong? FAIR ENOUGH! :) It's only my opinion. I think it makes the game more interesting, but then, I also like slow-cooked chicken, and not everyone else does, so who am I to say what's right and wrong?

Just enjoy the game you want to enjoy, yeah? :)


An easy (and quite reasonable response) to his entire argument is: The Warp prevents decay and/or augments chaos personnel and materials.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/ipick01_145.jpg

You're not wrong. The Warp is obvious the ultimate Deus Ex Machina/plot device/plot armour.

But it's a bit crap and reductive though, though, isn't it?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9d/27/71/9d2771dbfc18e370710e5ac729a2d95f.jpg

I mean, as far as storytelling devices go. It also suggests that servants of Chaos don't have to put any effort in; Chaos just does stuff for them, which is kind of counter to the idea of good narrative. They just win, 'because'. Which reduces the agency of Chaos' servants, dumbing them down. Seriously, if they never have to put any effort in because Chaos just looks after them, what value do any of their achievements have? Coastal erosion destroys towns, and so do hurricanes, but neither need servants. By making the Warp the ultimate band aid that takes away all the ouchies from its servants, that kind of diminishes them. It reduces them to boring invincible villains who never need to work to accomplish their goals. They just accomplish them Because Chaos Wills It, rather than through any effort of their own. If it wasn't them, it'd just be some other raindrop.

I'd rather Chaos felt more like they had achievements of their own; that they were well-rounded, three-dimensional characters with a working, real-world structure for their existence, rather than just reducing them to Skeletor and the baddies from Snake Mountain. They deserve better than that.

[tanfew]

One word to describe this write up-

Awesome.

[Charon]

I think the main problem is that you focus on realism too much and dismiss the "fantasy side" completely.
Chaos (as an army concept) without fantasy is just not possible. You can have your mundane Renegades, there is certainly place for them.
But I think the majority wants to have that colorful magic warp shennanigans... thats why you pick chaos. If you want space marines, go and pick them up. Make up your chapter thats has a dispute with the mechanicum and you are ready to go.
Thats why a lot of people get alienated by the "Renegades" concept.
You have an army that consists of pre-heresy armor, pre-heresy tech and pre-heresy vehicles to portrait a Warband that defected 100 years ago. Not gonna work.
Just take a close look at the crimson slaughter/crimson sabres. The only difference between them is their mindset + their ties to the warp.
So why would they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?


It also suggests that servants of Chaos don't have to put any effort in; Chaos just does stuff for them, which is kind of counter to the idea of good narrative.

Which is not true as the basic idea of chaos (like Daemons in nearly all fantasy settings and literature) is that they are vastly powerful in their dimension but need agents to deal with reality. To create circumstances for them to break into reality.
Chaos agents always try to:
1) open warpgates
2) Summon mighty daemon lords
3) cast planets/star systems into the warp

They corrupt governments/SM chapters/Imperial guard/..., summon lesser daemons, sacrifice a the population of a hive,... to finally achieve 1,2 and 3. And if they achieve their goal, there is a possibility to get to their final goal... unlimited power and immortality as a daemon prince.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the main problem is that you focus on realism too much and dismiss the "fantasy side" completely.

Only a problem for you, buddy. Like I said, it's an issue of taste. :)


I think the majority

You remember in the first post when I said this was just my opinion? There's an implication there that I wasn't speaking for the majority, or about them. :) Let the majority do or have what it wants; doesn't bother me.


So why would they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?

Buy and read FFG's 'Black Crusade'. The details are in there. It's a great game, well thought-out, and justifies literally all of your complaints.

Or, you know, you could just ignore it and go on complaining that no-one's adequately explained it for you. :)

I mean, the real reason why they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/ipick01_145.jpg

[Path Walker]

The warp works both ways, there will be traitors who have felt like the Long War is only a few centuries in, as the warp makes time run slower for them, the Crimson Sabres may have only disapeared 100 years ago to the Imperium, that doesn't mean they've only been fighting as pawns of the Dark Gods for 100 years, they might feel they've been there for millenia, their armour warping into what the gods consider Space Marine armour should look like, unable to collect ammo for their newer weapons, refiting razorbacks to rhinos to carry more of them into battle, a lot, or not much, can happen in 100 years in the Warp.

[Mr Mystery]

Now I feel the need to do my 'Loyalist, honest' Alpha Legion that I've been pondering.

Use the CSM rules, but using Loyalist/FW models. No outward signs of corruption. Keep it neat. Keep it tidy.

Idea being the Alpha Legion would be all too aware just how ignorant most of the Imperium is. Most Planetary Governors, let alone Imperial Citizens will have seen an actual Astartes, and this force exploits that. Infiltrate the planet, incite the population with tales of how the Governor and his spods are actually traitor, and get a civil war going on, destabilising the region.

Cue 10 man squads, and lots of PDF troops lead by 'Chaplains' (not Dark Apostles, honest). Minimal Daemonic stuff (though given the almost equal tech ignorance, I dare say I can squeeze in a Forgefiend).

To me it's something the Alpha Legion would most definitely do. Does it matter that they don't carry Codex issue equipment? Nope. Nobody is going to be in a position to say 'now I see you have Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW.....I happen to know for a fact you shouldn't have all three', because of that fantastic Imperial Ignorance!

[YorkNecromancer]

Painting that would be amazing. Just do them in some standard Chapter's colours, and stipple the Alpha Legion's colours to show where the 'camouflage' is flaking away.

That would look brilliant.

[Mr Mystery]

Kind of tempted to have them bold as brass with the Alpha Legion markings. I mean, when they say 'Hi, we're the Ultramarines - you will assist us in purging the corrupt' who the hell is going to know enough about Astartes Insignia to challenge them?

And of course 'don't worry brave Citizens. Our Chaplains will assist you in the rites of veneration of the God Emperor, which will naturally strengthen your body, spirit and resolve, and certainly not damn you for eternity, Scouts Honour!'

All about playing with the ignorance. I mean, who is the Planetary Governor going to call, and what's he going to say? 'Help, help! The Astartes are here to purge me! They say I'm a heretic, but I'm not! Oh dear Emperor the slaughter!'. Not many Imperial Agents are going to go against The Astartes, especially not when they're busy purging the unclean!

[Charon]

Cue 10 man squads, and lots of PDF troops lead by 'Chaplains' (not Dark Apostles, honest). Minimal Daemonic stuff (though given the almost equal tech ignorance, I dare say I can squeeze in a Forgefiend).

To me it's something the Alpha Legion would most definitely do. Does it matter that they don't carry Codex issue equipment? Nope. Nobody is going to be in a position to say 'now I see you have Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW.....I happen to know for a fact you shouldn't have all three', because of that fantastic Imperial Ignorance!

Issue is that the Forgefiend is no pice of tech. It is a Daemon bound in Iron. Thats means glowing Chaos Runes (which make you sick just watching them) a daemoic aura causing insanity, nightmares and nausea by just looing at it.
Your PDF carries sub par equipment no imperial flak vests and is a bunch of tatooed maniacs with chaos star brandings.

Best way to portrait Alpha Legion in this game?
Get your Space Marine Codex, pick a chapter trait (Raven guard would fit) and ally with Imperial guard. Done.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Stuck in my head to use the CSM rules. Especially with Marks and Standards and stuff - shows the insidious side of Chaos which I enjoy exploring.

After all, the 'venerations of The Emperor'.....'The Emperor requires that you pledge your blood oath. Just cut your palm like so, and hold this well holy icon, and then repeat after me in this language which is totes the secret language only shown to the most loyal of his subjects. There, that was painless yes?'....after a few of those, and Chaos has started to get a grip on them 'The battle fares poorly. You must show more resolve. The Emperor requires greater sacrifice. Show your commitment to His way by....erm....killing all the criminals, for they are impure. Read from Page 23, paragraph 3 of the 'Big Book of Not Certain Damnation'.....

Ah man! Even better for their fluff? They follow smaller Chaos Warbands, and actually help defend the planet, full on, then begin their own corruption.... Show up, intervene at the opportune moment, save the planet, then reveal the Raiders attacked at the invitation of the ruling classes, time to hold them to account. That way they get the populace and any Astra Militarum on the planet too. After the initial Raiders did their bit to take out the AM command structure.

Could even be baiting renegade factions to launch the first assault 'because we need to test your new loyalties' and that. Very, very Alpha Legion!

[Denzark]

I've had a similar idea for a Squad of Raptors MM. They will be in non-chaosified armour, with imperial jump packs. They will have Ultramarine shoulder pads on the normal side. However, instead of squad markings they will have Alpha legion markings. The weapons will all be chaos variants, both the pistols and the cc weapons, and any bare-headed will use chaos bare heads such as face masks and top knots.

From a distance you will see smurfs. the discerning eye will see differently... got all the parts, now need to execute!

[Mr Mystery]

Not a bad idea!

I love the idea of non-outwardly corrupted Chaos, particularly Alpha Legion who are best described as Renegade - in my head canon, I don't feel they ever went properly gribbly-chaotic, and certainly there would be fairly significant portions of the Legion that found their own way, particularly what we know so far about their Primarch's motivations.

All about the misdirection!

[Charon]

Alpha Legion who are best described as Renegade - in my head canon, I don't feel they ever went properly gribbly-chaotic

Which is exactly my point.
And without getting gribbly-chaotic, there are no marks, no standard and no chaosy stuff.
Thats why codex Space Marines is a vastly superior way to portrait Renegades without heavy ties to the warp chaos.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is exactly my point.
And without getting gribbly-chaotic, there are no marks, no standard and no chaosy stuff.
Thats why codex Space Marines is a vastly superior way to portrait Renegades without heavy ties to the warp chaos.

Which is cool if that's your take on it.

Me, I kinda want the proper 'Chaos but not Chaos Looking' thing, including the units. Would probably use the Mechanicum Secutors for Obliterators and stuff.

[Yonasu]

Well this post makes no sense at all. The csm turned to the ruinous powers due to the power they could gain from it, not because they wanted their bolters to rust. Touched by the warp doesnt mean that it is falling apart and not working, it means that the bolters fire freaking malefic ammo and soul blaze fireballs. A plague marine isnt just rusted, he's boosted by the constant decay and regeneration from papa nurgle deadpool style. Khorne marines should be faster and more ruthless, not scarey-cat weaklings that sat in the warp for 10000 years diddling themselves. Rubric marine, i mean seriously theyre dust ghosts incased in power armor, they should have a slight invul or fnp save at least.. but noooooo a piece of metal strapped to your arm gives 3++ if you believe in the emprah!

Anyway, dont try to give fluff reasons for the weak and overpriced CSM, it's not the least fluffy.

[Charon]

Which is cool if that's your take on it.

Not really my take on it but you are contradicting yourself in every single post.

You say you dont feel that they ever got into chaos stuff but want them to have the very same chaos stuff that you thinkt the didnt get into... whaaaaat?
I dont think my models would look good in blue color so I painted them blue to make them look good.

[Mr Mystery]

Alpha Legion would have Heresy era equipment and dakka and that, and being Renegade, access to the Daemonic stuff to boot. I'm looking for a way to make it look less obviously daemonic.

If I wanted an allied SM and AM force, I'd do that. But I don't.

But you're right. You are in the fact sole and only arbitrator of all hobby, and I must bow, scrape and acquiesce to your demands.

[Charon]

But you're right. You are in the fact sole and only arbitrator of all hobby, and I must bow, scrape and acquiesce to your demands.

No need for that. But I understand your need to get sarcastic when you are proven to contradict yourself (again).
Should not matter to you anyways as you are all talk anyhow going to every post with "I will totally start it!" when it comes to new playthings... so not much hobby involvement there anyways.. more like you try to sell something.

[Mr Mystery]

No need for that. But I understand your need to get sarcastic when you are proven to contradict yourself (again).
Should not matter to you anyways as you are all talk anyhow going to every post with "I will totally start it!" when it comes to new playthings... so not much hobby involvement there anyways.. more like you try to sell something.

That I'm a committed hobby butterfly, but once more, I shall do as you say, being the only person whose take on the hobby is relevant and correct.

[Houghten]

And without getting gribbly-chaotic, there are no marks, no standard and no chaosy stuff.

How do you figure? A mark's just a god's favour, it doesn't have to involve actual mutation.

[Charon]

How do you figure? A mark's just a god's favour, it doesn't have to involve actual mutation.

The pact itself not necessarily (but its quite uncommon to be a chosen champion of your god and receive... nothing). The bubble however bursts with the champion of chaos rule which does grant mutations and is part of the fluff now (thanks gw).

[Denzark]

How do you figure? A mark's just a god's favour, it doesn't have to involve actual mutation.

It's pretty indelible. It might not be mutation in terms of 'oh cack a tentacle just sprouted from my forehead' but I am unaware of any mark that doesn't involve a physical change. Unless you count the old Rogue* Trader 'illusion of normality' but that was in the mutation table...


*Rogue not Rouge people...

[miteyheroes]

I thought that a mark was a mutation, a physical sigil of the God appearing on your skin?

[Charon]

I thought that a mark was a mutation, a physical sigil of the God appearing on your skin?

In most cases yes... there may the one or another exception but not armywide...

[Path Walker]

Nope, the Mark isn't always a physical change, the warp can change people to the Gods will, but it doesn't always, indeed if the Gods think you'd be more useful unchanged (as would befit the Alpha Legion), they might not make any changes at all.

Using an in game rule to invalidate the fluff of the force? Laughable. Eye of the Gods can represent a lot of things, one of the other Gods interffering with the plans of the Alpha Legion to advance their own ideals of just for a laugh

Mystery's idea is a sound one, a cool, fluffy force which uses the rules to represent something he wants to make with the models.

Saying his PDF aren't PDF because they are wearing rags and don't have Flak armour? Daft as Mystery never said he'd use the current Cultist models, and utterly ignoring the idea that the PDF are drawn up and equipped by the Planetary Governor of a particular planet, they'd be equipped however he saw fit, the models could have Lasguns because an Autogun is the exact same weapon in game terms.

You're seeming to base your argument on the idea that the Chaos Space Marine codex must represent mutants and freaks with burning symbols of the gods on their heads and that modelling your own Chaos Space Marines, that are more restrained and yet still living within the Eye and hampered by a lack of access to Imperial Logistics.

Charon is arguing because he likes to think that anyone not entierly critical of GW can't be right about anything.

[daboarder]

Nope, the Mark isn't always a physical change, the warp can change people to the Gods will, but it doesn't always, indeed if the Gods think you'd be more useful unchanged (as would befit the Alpha Legion), they might not make any changes at all.

Using an in game rule to invalidate the fluff of the force? Laughable. Eye of the Gods can represent a lot of things, one of the other Gods interffering with the plans of the Alpha Legion to advance their own ideals of just for a laugh

Mystery's idea is a sound one, a cool, fluffy force which uses the rules to represent something he wants to make with the models.

Saying his PDF aren't PDF because they are wearing rags and don't have Flak armour? Daft as Mystery never said he'd use the current Cultist models, and utterly ignoring the idea that the PDF are drawn up and equipped by the Planetary Governor of a particular planet, they'd be equipped however he saw fit, the models could have Lasguns because an Autogun is the exact same weapon in game terms.

You're seeming to base your argument on the idea that the Chaos Space Marine codex must represent mutants and freaks with burning symbols of the gods on their heads and that modelling your own Chaos Space Marines, that are more restrained and yet still living within the Eye and hampered by a lack of access to Imperial Logistics.

Charon is arguing because he likes to think that anyone not entierly critical of GW can't be right about anything.

you know, you were making some decent points for once path, couldnt you have just done that without the personaly attacks?

Mystery has his way of representing renegades, Charon has his.

Personally I dont feel that the chaos codex is particularly right for representing renegades, but then its not right for legion warbands either, which is the whole unfortunate point of the thing, that its stuck in limbo between two design philosophies and doesn't do either partuclarly well.

All that being sai, if mystery feels he wants to run his alpha renegades whatever out of the chaos book then thats his choice. (after all, plenty of chaos players run their armies out of the space marine book to get their legion tactics)

[Mr Mystery]

I actually agree the CSM Codex as it stands isn't quite one thing, nor the other.

As a core source of 'well most would have stuff like this' - fair enough. It's nicely generic if there are then supplements which add flavour.

If there are no supplements, then it's disappointingly generic - though IA:13 has certainly done Lost and The Damned proud!

Thing for my AL? I want visual cues to players that all is not as it seems. Background is about abusing the ignorance rife in the Imperium.

[daboarder]

Thing for my AL? I want visual cues to players that all is not as it seems. Background is about abusing the ignorance rife in the Imperium.

yeah I get where your coming from, its fairly common in alpha legion armies. I've seen some that use only chaos weapons, so they look like loyalists until the models are right up and close, and I've seen others that go straight mutated to hell, as with all things chaos its ultimately up to YOU

[Path Walker]

I think the original intention was to bring out regular supplements for specific warbands, its just the whole thing got put on hold with the new schedule, once all the codexes are out the way I think we'll see more traction on that front

[daboarder]

I think the original intention was to bring out regular supplements for specific warbands, its just the whole thing got put on hold with the new schedule, once all the codexes are out the way I think we'll see more traction on that front

unlikely, given that the codex was largely unchanged from 4th to 6th and that the 4th ed codex not only preceeded supplements (significantly) but was also basically the first 3rd ed codex just fiddled with to fit it into 4th.

While I dont doubt GW will add more warband supplements if they feel like it, I dont not think that the reason the chaos codex is so bland on its own was so that they could make supplements.

The space marine codex has plenty of unique flavour and has two supplements (with likely more on the way at some point)

[Denzark]

MM - do you not find IA13 L&D quite bitty? You know, 10pts for pre-flak, 10pts for militia training etc?

[Path Walker]

unlikely, given that the codex was largely unchanged from 4th to 6th and that the 4th ed codex not only preceeded supplements (significantly) but was also basically the first 3rd ed codex just fiddled with to fit it into 4th.

While I dont doubt GW will add more warband supplements if they feel like it, I dont not think that the reason the chaos codex is so bland on its own was so that they could make supplements.

The space marine codex has plenty of unique flavour and has two supplements (with likely more on the way at some point)


Its not bland though, at all. It depends entierly on how you use it, you're free to be as bland or as wacky as you want with it.

Unless you have some sort of definition of bland that you need to let the rest of us know?

[Mr Mystery]

MM - do you not find IA13 L&D quite bitty? You know, 10pts for pre-flak, 10pts for militia training etc?

Sort of - but I find that the single list can let you field your take on the various L&D concepts outweighs the 'what does that do again?' issues.

I suppose if you approach that list without a firm idea in your head of what you want the force to represent (rioting oiks, renegade Guard, Rogue Trader gone to the dark etc) then you'd find it overwhelming in terms of options. For me, the key would be 'right, all my spods will have upgrade X, Y and Z, because then they'll be equivalent to Unit Q'.

- - - Updated - - -


Its not bland though, at all. It depends entierly on how you use it, you're free to be as bland or as wacky as you want with it.

Unless you have some sort of definition of bland that you need to let the rest of us know?

I disagree. Whilst I can see how 'bland' might seem an unfair term, the Codex does lack flavour - a mono-Khorne army doesn't differ massively from say, mono-Slaanesh in terms of the units and play styles.

3.5 Codex was a smorgasbord in comparisson, and like many smorgasbords the world over, people only went for the really nice stuff - which in it's own way lead to a bland experience for opponents.

[Psyfer]

First of all, York, great write-up on the fluff logic of Chaos and chaotic 'evil' armies as a trope in fantasy.

Given that the discussion has gone over to more game related stuff, I'll weigh in my 2c and be done with it.

To me, a Chaos army should be about risk. Compared to a regular Space Marine army, a chaos army should be unreliable, but capable of amazing things when 'the stars align' so to speak. Regular Space Marines are reliable, stalwart defenders of humanity. Chaos Marines gave that up for a (fleeting) chance at immortal glory.

Gear-wise, I think they should be (as a rule) more ramshackle and reliant on simpler, more reliable technology, with less standard gear and more variation (even allow things like shotguns etc into the mix to represent a marine who's really down on their luck). I also think that the 2nd ed 'Pay extra for post-heresy equipment' idea was a good one as well, as it allows for easier representation of either younger warbands or looted equipment without compromising the theme of the list. It would also be interesting to see options for adaptation of existing units (say, someone jury-rigging a rhino to mount an Autocannon).

As for the troops, basic Space marines should be cheaper then Loyalists, and not have ATSKNF. They should come with next-to-no standard equipment, but have a lot of options available to them, including skill/trait upgrades. You shouldn't be able to judge one Chaos army by the army you just fought.

As for the Vet/terminator problem, well that's got to do with the core mechanics of 40k, and to be frank those core mechanics should have been severely overhauled (or better yet, thrown out the window) about 10-15 years ago. Theme-wise, I know what a veteran Space Marine should be. On the table though, it rarely eventuates because to be honest, the rules for 40k cannot allow for it. It's one of my biggest issues with the game (as opposed to GW as a company, I've got way bigger issues there ;) ).

I'd also recommend Black Crusade to anyone. It's really well-written and internally consistent, which is a challenge to do with a faction as diverse as the legions of Chaos.

[Path Walker]

This thread has just been shared by the Andy Chamber on facebook, with "This Guy get its", well done YorkNecromancer, approval from Andy! A great honour indeed!

[Psychosplodge]

Also that tells you he might read Bols.
In fact anyone could be him :eek:
Maybe Yorkie is Andy Chambers and he's promoting his own work :eek:
or maybe I've spent too long on the internet...

[Cutter]

Also that tells you he might read Bols.
In fact anyone could be him :eek:
Maybe Yorkie is Andy Chambers and he's promoting his own work :eek:
or maybe I've spent too long on the internet...

Maybe you're the seventh suit.

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe you're the seventh suit.

:confused:

[Path Walker]

Its me, I'm Andy Chambers.

[Psychosplodge]

No I'm Andy Chambers, and so is my wife...

[Mr Mystery]

Nonsense. Everyone knows Dennis, Gav Thorpe's Mechanical Hamster is really Andy Chambers.

It's in the Mutton Chops.

[Psychosplodge]

shhhhh Don't let the cat out the bag

[Path Walker]

If you rearrange the name Charon, and add a few letters you get A Chambers, you have to throw away the O and the N though.

[Psychosplodge]

But Charon essentially said he didn't get it

[40kGamer]

No I'm Andy Chambers, and so is my wife...

Well I'm Rick Priestly so...

http://www.multiplemayhemmamma.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kid-sticking-out-his-tongue.jpg

[Psychosplodge]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/ac0219734cfc2fd5ea87b4a76dee3be1/tumblr_mrui8im49T1spzweoo1_400.gif

[Path Walker]

But Charon essentially said he didn't get it

False flag opperation.

He's on to us.

[40kGamer]

ROFL! :p

[Psyfer]

This thread has just been shared by the Andy Chambers on facebook, with "This Guy get its", well done YorkNecromancer, approval from Andy! A great honour indeed!

Sorry to ruin the suspense, but he shared it from my facebook page :P

[Path Walker]

Sorry to ruin the suspense, but he shared it from my facebook page :P

So we know you can't be Andy Chambers

12399

[Charon]

But Charon essentially said he didn't get it

In fact I did not say he did not get it.
I commented on leaving aside the whole warp thing which is kinda essential to Chaos.
I also really liked his writing and I enjoy this style IN THE BOOKS.
You can do a whole lot of things while writing. There is a false Prophet inciting an uprise so the imperial defenders have to deal with two forces... on the tabletop? Not so much.
If you translate books like the whole Souldrinker story odr the Nightlord Omnibus into tabletop you indeed only field worse Space Marines without equipment. That may be fun to read, but it is not fun to play at all.

The problem is the mindet which was created by these books and is reflected by this article.
Chaos has to lose cause its a strictly worse version of space marine loyalists. If you want to keep the warp stuff aside, thats 100 % true. And thats sad.
Also in these books CSM have thunderhawks, Drop Pods,... but we are very quick to conclude: "Lolz they all lost it because its hard to maintain".
On the other Hand we KNOW how (for example) the Ultramarines are organized. But the codex lets Ultramarines break their chapter organisation. It is just adamant about not letting Chaos brak out of this "you are a ****ty poor ******* marine" thing.

[Path Walker]

The books, the stories, the fluff of the 41st millenium is more important to most people than how easily you can win the games you play.

Having the codex reflect who the Chaos Space Marines are in the story is more important than the impossible contradictory and purely theoretical concept of "game balance".

Ignoring the Warp, then Chaos Space Marines are just worse Space Marines, thats true, they're marines without the logistical power of the Imperium to make them work and that should be reflected in the codex.

The books all touch on the fact that the only advantage that the Chaos forces have is the Warp, its also their biggest disadvantage, they always need to the Warp to win, Talos hates chaos, but without the warped and tainted Exalted, he'd never have pulled off his escape. Without the foresight he gained from his Father, from the touch of the Warp, he'd never have been able to rally the rest of the Company behind him. The Warp is Chaos, renegades, Legions, all need the Warp.

And most importantly, Andy Chambers, writer of the first Chaos Codex (the awesome 2nd Edition one with the cool double page spread of the Legions by John Blanche that really cemented their look) and the vaunted 3.5 Codex, disagrees with you Charon.

[Psyfer]

So we know you can't be Andy Chambers

12399

'tis true sadly. You've found me out.


I'm James Hetfield.

[YorkNecromancer]

'tis true sadly. You've found me out.


I'm James Hetfield.

:eek:

*bows*

My lord.

Also: ANDY CHAMBERS?!

*Faints*

Screenshot? Because honestly, that can't be true.

Can it?

[Psyfer]

:eek:

*bows*

My lord.

Also: ANDY CHAMBERS?!

*Faints*

Screenshot? Because honestly, that can't be true.

Can it?

It is true:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12404&d=1421869599
12404

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry for the thumbnail being so small, not sure how to get it to be full size in the thread.

(Also, in case anyone didn't get the gag, I'm not actually the lead singer of Metallica. I'm just old enough to remember when James and Andy looked like each other's long lost twins :D)

[YorkNecromancer]

Those were the days...

[Psyfer]

Indeed. Back when 40K was cool, and Warzone was the up-and-coming young punk with something to prove...

[Dead Blue Clown]

Saw this on Andy's FB page and registered here just to say how much I loved it.

Freaking awesome work, good sir/madam.

[Psychosplodge]

In fact I did not say he did not get it.

A one line throwaway comment doesn't allow for exploring the intricacies of an argument, in the context of where the conversation was it was close enough :p

[daboarder]

If you rearrange the name Charon, and add a few letters you get A Chambers, you have to throw away the O and the N though.

its not funny when you steal others material

[Mr Mystery]

its not funny when you steal others material

Tell me about it (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?42240-Chaos-V-Loyalist-Supply-V-Demand-and-a-discussion-thereof&highlight=Supply+Demand)

:p (not actually bitter. But I did it first. so nyeah)

[Cutter]

Indeed. Back when 40K was cool, and Warzone was the up-and-coming young punk with something to prove...

Ahhhh WarZone, you cheeky mon-keigh...

[Psyfer]

Ahhhh WarZone, you cheeky mon-keigh...

IN NOMINE CARDINALIS!!!

My two factions of choice were Brotherhood and Imperial.

[Cutter]

IN NOMINE CARDINALIS!!!

My two factions of choice were Brotherhood and Imperial.

Bauhuas and Imp for me, with a bit of Capitol and Cybertronic thrown in.

On reflection, it's amazing how much of my Imperial Guard bears a really quite uncanny resemblance to Ducal Militia and Trenchers :D

[YorkNecromancer]

Those old Heartbreaker minis were goofy as all hell, but there were some pretty great sculpts in there... Relative to the era, of course. :)

[daboarder]

Tell me about it (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?42240-Chaos-V-Loyalist-Supply-V-Demand-and-a-discussion-thereof&highlight=Supply+Demand)

:p (not actually bitter. But I did it first. so nyeah)

you did, and I think I stand by most of what I was saying in that thread, and the replies that BnC chaos board gave. All the background material supports the evidence that chaos is a significant danger to the imperium and could ostensibly "win" a conflict. they dont have supply or maintenance issues to any greater extent than the imperium or anyone else does.


Also, considering the Imperium.


Except the imperium is not cohesive. And certainly not responsive. Its a burecratic carcass. Its takes decades to even notice planets dissapearing. Its also full of factions driven by nothing more rhan self interest. Interests that more often than not lead to mutually exclusive goals.

They are just as fractured and messed up as the chaos forces really when you get right down to it

[Renegade]

The only big area that I think York has it wrong is in terms of corruption.

Warp corruption is not rust and wear, it tends to be tentacles, horns and leering mouths. It is the reason that Iron Warriors have many bionics, Chaos Terminators have tusks and Chaos armour looks awesome.

Typhus Manreaper is not just a rusted blade, it is touched by Nurgle, so is razor sharp and carries every bit of filth in the known universe and probably more (tetanus is just the beginning and you'll wish you just had tetanus well before the end).

It was a good read though, well done.

[Denzark]

Aha yeah. I recall the original supply thread. I see I pointed out the logistics of the Sabbat worlds...

[Psyfer]

Bauhuas and Imp for me, with a bit of Capitol and Cybertronic thrown in.

On reflection, it's amazing how much of my Imperial Guard bears a really quite uncanny resemblance to Ducal Militia and Trenchers :D

Hah.


I always thought Imperial Regulars/Trenchers were the best Imperial Guard minis ever made :P

- - - Updated - - -


Those old Heartbreaker minis were goofy as all hell, but there were some pretty great sculpts in there... Relative to the era, of course. :)

The new Prodos ones are pretty nice. I just wish I could have had a thousand-odd pounds so I could have had a named character designed with my likeness and have a say in said character's rules (I would have gone for a Mortificator sniper).

Oh well, my ugly mug's going to be in the RPG, so I guess I can live with that :D

[DinoMonstrosity]

Wow, just signed up on this forum and this is my first post read. You've heard it a hundred times before but BRAVO! If the rest of what I read is half this good then goodbye life.

[Detson]

This really helped me to conceptualize Chaos. Very funny and well written!