CSM lacking something simple...

[Katharon]

One thing that has always bothered me, especially in light of the newly released Imperial Armour 13 (Chaos Space Marine armour book), is the fact that the 6th edition CSM codex (and based on GW's track record likely the 7th edition codex when it comes) lacks the Razorback. With entry after entry in IA13 saying "stolen from Loyalists" or "brought to the Eye by renegades" for dozens of war machines -- the CSM somehow lack the widely used workhorse that is the razorback.

So, BolS folk, what do you think?

[Charistoph]

I want to say both yes, and no.

Yes, because why shouldn't have have an IFV?

No, because I want it to be a unique pattern to Chaos.

[Arkhan Land]

I've never been too worried about it, I feel like a CSM Rhino making using use of a Havoc Launcher and Fire Points is a easily as good of a threat as a Razorback. Each has a decent TL Weapon, either higher strength or A Small Blast, differently useful. But the fire-points is the kicker for me, tricked out the Razorback has Two Plas and a Las Shot with Stormbolter, versus tricked out the CSM Tank can have two bad dudes shooting 2 Plas, A Slightly Strengthy Blast Shot and then another Plasma gun from Combi. So three High Strength Shots, versus 3-6 and a Blast Catching 1-2 Models.

Pretty Good Matchup

also forgot to add versus the Razorback the CSM Rhino can also take Daemonic possesion and can always repair for far greater longetivity. its probably why they dont have any razorbacks left...

[KhornishGameHen]

I think it would be nice just for a bit more flexibility and choice, but it wouldn't be a crucial game changing addition.

[daboarder]

I think not, but it would be nice to have more than just the Rhino/Raider for transport outside of FW

[KhornishGameHen]

I think not, but it would be nice to have more than just the Rhino/Raider for transport outside of FW

I definitely agree with that statement... I get jealous of other armies at times for all of the ways they can move units across the field and I just sit and stare at the chaos rhinos like "why are you so boring?"

[daboarder]

I definitely agree with that statement... I get jealous of other armies at times for all of the ways they can move units across the field and I just sit and stare at the chaos rhinos like "why are you so boring?"

Yeah, and given the chaos is basically an army designed to be in combat I think I'd prefer a rhino chassis or equivalent with an assault ramp over the heavy weapon

[Charon]

There are a few small things that could be done to get CSM right:

1) Legion Traits
2) Kult upgrades
3) Re-evaluate Marks (+1I vs +1T)
4) Get rid of Cultists and change the Allies Chart to be Battle Brothers with IG and Knights.
5) Fix standard CSM


I've never been too worried about it, I feel like a CSM Rhino making using use of a Havoc Launcher and Fire Points is a easily as good of a threat as a Razorback. Each has a decent TL Weapon, either higher strength or A Small Blast, differently useful. But the fire-points is the kicker for me, tricked out the Razorback has Two Plas and a Las Shot with Stormbolter, versus tricked out the CSM Tank can have two bad dudes shooting 2 Plas, A Slightly Strengthy Blast Shot and then another Plasma gun from Combi. So three High Strength Shots, versus 3-6 and a Blast Catching 1-2 Models.

And while the Razorback can mobe on his own ans still has these weapons, your rhino is around 217 points and you compare that to ONE 75 points Razorback instead of THREE of them.

I don't think Razorbacks would do anything. Drop Pods would be a good step in the right direction.

[Mr Mystery]

I am actually a Necron!

But in general - I'd like to see CSM move away from just being Spiky Marines, so not sure the Razorback is needed. Something equivalent? By all means. But not just SpikyRazorback (Spikyback?). That's boring

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Be better if they had something similar but more unique. But something better looking than a lord of skulls. But hey, what do I know - I'm a Necron.

[daboarder]

I am actually a Necron!

But in general - I'd like to see CSM move away from just being Spiky Marines, so not sure the Razorback is needed. Something equivalent? By all means. But not just SpikyRazorback (Spikyback?). That's boring

the trick with SM is that they DO need to be spikey SMs, to a certain extent. They are afterall meant to be the dark reflection of the loyalists, the fate that awaits all marines if they survive long enough/ stray from the path. at the same time they have their own millitary doctrine.

In this instance, legion traits andunique wargear would be the best way of getting said feel across in my opinion

[Dave Mcturk]

I am actually a Necron!

But in general - I'd like to see CSM move away from just being Spiky Marines, so not sure the Razorback is needed. Something equivalent? By all means. But not just SpikyRazorback (Spikyback?). That's boring

b rightened my day. thanks :) [hedgehog ?]

but seriously csm spikes are deadly - id just run with skulls and icons - less risk to body parts !

[Defenestratus]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

[KhornishGameHen]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

Well I'd much prefer toys of our own, but if GW isn't going to do that then stealing from loyalists is the next best thing! :p

[Charon]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

Oh believe me... when all your toys are toned down loyalists toys anyways it doesn't make huge difference anymore.
Rhino? The same... except for chapter traits and Storm Bolter but still the same points.
Landraider? The same... just one variant, no chapter traits and no PotMS but who cares... same points anyways.
Marines? Same stats... except for chapter traits, combat squads and ATSKNF... these advantages come at a ZERO points increase.

First world problems...

[This Dave]

They also don't have any Landspeeders variants at all even though most of the designs were around since the Heresy. I'm sure some Heretek would be able to either keep the anti-grav working or else use some kind of techno-sorcery to get them flying.

I think it's just to try to differentiate Chaos from Loyalist Marines more then anything else. Why else would a Chapter that turns to Chaos immediately throw away all their Razorbacks, Storm Bolters, Landspeeders, and such and replace them with old time spiky versions? Crimson Slaughter I'm looking at you.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'd like to see a few more loyalist toys in the Chaos toybox, but less accessible on the FOC. Say, include Razorbacks, but have them only be available as a Dedicated Transport for Chosen.

Overall, I'd like to see fewer toys in Chaos' chaff (Troops only having Flamers, Stubbers, Heavy Bolters and Autocannons for special weapons) and more in its Elites (Chosen, maybe Havocs, having Multi-meltas, Grav Guns etc).

[Power Klawz]

Razorback, no I don't think CSM need that particular vehicle, but something similar in a chaos-y way would be wonderful.

Probably something with less guns, more speed and an assault ramp. 6 man capacity that you can jam 3 termies into if you want, or just a beefy squad of chosen/possessed/zerkers etc. Give it a similar aesthetic to the daemon engines and unleash the hounds of khorne. (or possible Slaanesh, I guess. pfft.)

I do think that CSM are lacking in the transport vehicle options department. They've got the brown lunch bag of transports in the rhino and they've got the 60 gallon beer cooler of the schizo land raider. They need some options on the land raider and an in-between transport. Not saying they need redeemers or crusaders or whatnot, but maybe some more chaos themed options. I mean we've got hades autocannons and ectoplasma, don't see why those can't be bolted to a land raider. Imagine a triple hades autocannon land raider! or tossing out 3 ap2 plasma blasts a turn! Seems like a lot of missed opportunities in that chassis.

The "chaos razorback" I think should be a one trick pony armament wise with some speed and assault capability. Maybe something like a toned down baleflame thrower in the turret (str5, ap4 maybe), or the aforementioned hades autocannons (twin linked, of course) or ectoplasma cannons with no further options beyond a pintle mounted twin-linked bolter.

Just daydreaming though. le sigh

[DWest]

They also don't have any Landspeeders variants at all even though most of the designs were around since the Heresy. I'm sure some Heretek would be able to either keep the anti-grav working or else use some kind of techno-sorcery to get them flying.

I think it's just to try to differentiate Chaos from Loyalist Marines more then anything else. Why else would a Chapter that turns to Chaos immediately throw away all their Razorbacks, Storm Bolters, Landspeeders, and such and replace them with old time spiky versions? Crimson Slaughter I'm looking at you.
The problem is, 40k isn't a roleplaying game- the army list in the back of the book represents a Chaos force, not a we're-changing-into-Chaos force. Likewise, bits of more rare technology (grav guns, landspeeders, etc) are going to be the first things the now-heretic warband gets rid of, firstly because those bits of gear are going to break down the soonest without access to the Chapter's old logistics train, and secondly because while those things still work, they can be sold to people who want to collect Imperial tech in exchange for resources needed to keep the warband afloat. This is also assuming that the Chaos gods don't do something really crazy to the heretics, like rip out their souls and use them to re-animate a bunch of their Legionary forefathers from one of the old Heresy battlegrounds, in which case their goodies got left behind anyhow.

[Lunchbox739]

[QUOTE=Charon;472094]There are a few small things that could be done to get CSM right:

1) Legion Traits
2) Kult upgrades
3) Re-evaluate Marks (+1I vs +1T)
4) Get rid of Cultists and change the Allies Chart to be Battle Brothers with IG and Knights.
5) Fix standard CSM

I agree with this, except the getting rid of cultists part, Cultists were single handedly one of the best things ever added to CSM. Could chaos benefit from having razorbacks added to their options? Sure but if we are going to go that route you are just as well to paint your army up any way you like and call it a counts as space marine army and just play the chapter tactics that match your scheme the closest.

Chaos needs a basic codex laid out like the Space Marine codex but with very specific differences to set the two armies apart and still have the swiss army knife of playable options that CSM should have but don't at this time.

my personal issues with CSM are as follows:

1.) Point costs aren't in line with what you get in most units. Example: A chaos lord that takes up an HQ slot has to purchase a 25 point upgrade to get a mere 4+ invulnerable save when space marines have elites and fast attack units that can pay 15 points to gain a 3+ invulnerable save. Hardly a fair tradeoff there. If given the choice between Sigil of Corruption for or Storm Shields who wouldn't take storm shields?
2.) As stated previously, CSM doesn't have the vast transport options that most other armies have to deliver troops into the fray without getting into Forge World books, namely IA13.
3.) Standard power armor marines are a waste of points in most cases...NOT ALL...most. Typhus with a mob of plague zombies is just too good for the points, although it does get boring after awhile.
4.) Put Heldrakes back to pre 7th edition stats...with the only nerf being that its firing arc is limited to 180 degrees forward. Heldrakes were too good but the nerf they got hit with was too much.
5.) Legion Tactics....why aren't there any? pages 77 and 78 of the Space marine codex throw out chapter tactics for 7 chapters of space marines... GW couldnt hash out specific legion traits for the big 4 at least?
6.) Champion of Chaos is near and far the worst special rule to ever grace a CSM codex. It should get the big ugly axe.
7.) More csm units need a "and they shall know no fear" type special rule. 10000 years in the warp, you would think morale checks would be a thing of the past, since you really cant be any more damned
8.) Certain units in the CSM codex need a special rule that allows assault from Deep Strike or perhaps an option to purchase that special rule across several units. Existing in the warp for 10K years, it just seems natural that some units might gain an affinity for stepping through the warp. This would be great for an otherwise useless unit like Mutilators.
9.) Having a complete plastic line of models would be fun to have.... to date... the only way you are getting cultists is a 5 pack with no champion, buy the dark vengeance set over and over or ebay. Staple units like Havocs are in finecast with no options other then what is shown on the front of the box. This is a general problem with GW across the board and isnt just CSMs.

I could go on for days here but the overall point is pretty simple.... CSM lacks the utility that makes the competitive level players want to play the army. They could go as far as overhauling a general codex and then releasing quality supplements for the different legions. They just need to have some substance and actual thought put into them and not the hashed together garbage they keep throwing out like Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion. Those 2 books that could have been so much more if the writers would have taken the time to go the extra mile. Does anyone truly want to pay 50 dollars for 60 pages of fluff and 2 pages of rules? That is ridiculous in its own right....

[TheNeverThere]

I think what CSM needs are Land Raider variants. I mean, We can come up with Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, and Defilers, but we can't figure out how to swap some lascannons out for our apparently ubiquitous autocannons for some increased capacity? What the hell?

[Erasmus]

I am in favor of a chaos razorback, I think the regular space marines have enough other unique units and rules now that introducing stuff like razorbacks and multi-meltas to CSM without compromising the differences between the two. Also razorbacks aren't as big of a deal as they were in fifth, and chaos players could really use the option. I'd say give it different weapon options though, like i'd trade las-plas for a hades autocannon (that would be crazy)

[Harry Paratesteez]

Once upon a time back in second edition, CSM could purchase any vehicles that were available to Imperials at a 50% increase in points cost.
That seemed like a fairly decent way of representing the availability of loyalist weapons.

[The Madman]

I'd rather see some variations in our tanks then just adding a razorback (I'd like to see the dreadclaw though), I mean we've had the one land raider for how many editions now? are you telling me that chaos has never tried to add heavy bolter sponsons to it, or perhaps baleflamers or Kai Guns (Hate-fueled heavy bolter from 3rd edition). It would be nice to have a difference in our patterns and would even propose we had a new vehicle kit that mimics the heresy vehicles but with chaos trimming and unique variants.

[Charistoph]

I'd rather see some variations in our tanks then just adding a razorback (I'd like to see the dreadclaw though), I mean we've had the one land raider for how many editions now? are you telling me that chaos has never tried to add heavy bolter sponsons to it, or perhaps baleflamers or Kai Guns (Hate-fueled heavy bolter from 3rd edition). It would be nice to have a difference in our patterns and would even propose we had a new vehicle kit that mimics the heresy vehicles but with chaos trimming and unique variants.

My point at the beginning.

An IFV would be nice for Chaos Marines to have, but does it have to be a Razorback?

And every time I think of Land Raiders and Chaos in the same afternoon, that does come up about their reliance on a very basic version.

[Arkhan Land]

And while the Razorback can mobe on his own ans still has these weapons, your rhino is around 217 points and you compare that to ONE 75 points Razorback instead of THREE of them.

I don't think Razorbacks would do anything. Drop Pods would be a good step in the right direction.


if you want to compare raw sqauds then do 75 and 70, yr still gettin bolter shots outa ports versus nada for razorback.

I think it really depends on what you want to do if your looking at them one on one, i like the SM option for armor but for troops the CSM choice is the most choosey.


as an example heres another great matchup

75 to 57

TLPGLC versus HL+Combi+Combi

=

1 HS Strength Shot + Rapid Fire Plas 1/2 shots! Poppin all kinds of tanks!

vs

1 Mid Strength Blast Shot + 2 Bolters mounted everything soul blaze!
(add in fireport shots and thats two more bolters, so within 12" yr sendin out 8 shots)

with the marine jam yr always only torchin 3 jerks, always buy stormbolter so maybe 5 but then yr pushing the price barrier up.
versus the CSM with 6 plus whoever they torch themselves, for 2 points more than the basic razorback.

now personally in my opinion the real winner is the inquisitorial Razor with HBs and a SB then adding psybolt ammo. smokin deal for 55.

I Love both these options, for each army. I usually run only Razors with my SMs (thankfully I have 4 Plas/Las turrets from the good ole days) and I usually run Havoc Launchers on 3-4 CSM Rhinos with some extra combi/combi-bolter tricks.


If I really had to pick one thing to set them apart, it would be adding a crack missile option to the havoc launcher. then yr pushing closer to the Las strength but at twin linked which is a lot more threatening to higher armour and can even crack that tipytop av 14. but then again SM vehicles already have hunter killers... so we start up that one

[Charon]

if you want to compare raw sqauds then do 75 and 70, yr still gettin bolter shots outa ports versus nada for razorback.

You highlightet how the Razorback and the Havoc rhino are kinda equal because the Rhino has 2 fire points.
To get the 2 Plasma Guns you factored in, you need 10 (!) CSM inside the Rhino (which means 8 Bolters wont get any chance to shoot) while the Razorback has equal shooting capabilities WITHOUT any model inside.

[Caitsidhe]

My particular favorite is that CSM seem incapable of mastering the basic technology of the shield. :D What is worse they apparently have religious prohibitions against salvaging them from the battlefield. :D

[Arkhan Land]

You highlightet how the Razorback and the Havoc rhino are kinda equal because the Rhino has 2 fire points.
To get the 2 Plasma Guns you factored in, you need 10 (!) CSM inside the Rhino (which means 8 Bolters wont get any chance to shoot) while the Razorback has equal shooting capabilities WITHOUT any model inside.

I only factored in the sqaud in the parenthesis parts as a hypothetical to taking a transport without the sqaud, on a CSM Rhino you can take two combi bolters on the rhino itself. not talkin the sqaud there, thats where you get the 4 bolter shots.
and like I said this is hypothetically if in an unbound game I guess you take a transport con nadie

[Charon]

so how many weapons do you fire if you moved?

[Arkhan Land]

just one and then snapn the others, only helpful thing is everything is TL, but usually my turns for a CSM rhino go, Flat Out, Flat Out to within dirge castin range and then shooting stationary for a turn before what is most likely imminent destruction. I guess I dont often do turns at combat to worry about it, I guess If i ran unmarked CSM that were shooty I'de enjoy that but I havent desired to build that kind of csm army in like... almost ten years

I guess overall I just dont feel like i want anymore razors, If CSM were to get something that fullfills the razors role I wouldnt want it to be a razor, something new, something different

I just thought of an idea for something different, what if there were something akin to the obliterar that had happened to a chaos vehicle that had been possesed for some time, this would satisfty my desire for something choasy yet not the razor, two random mutant weapons or one twin linked random mutant weapon. always possesed, always castin a dirge, now causing fear. daemonforge.

[KhorneFlakes888]

I disagree. Chaos have the Rhino which is not so humble when you add a Havoc Launcher, Combi-bolter plus one or two things such as daemonic possession or say destroyer blades. Things start to get very mean, very quickly. Just because chaos does not have a killy transport off the bat that does not mean that they cannot get them. Additionally chaos tanks are cheap enough (great!) and fluff wise they are too disorganised mostly to have standard razorbacks. Just try it, chaos rhino with havoc launcher and combi-bolter.

[Katharon]

I disagree. Chaos have the Rhino which is not so humble when you add a Havoc Launcher, Combi-bolter plus one or two things such as daemonic possession or say destroyer blades. Things start to get very mean, very quickly. Just because chaos does not have a killy transport off the bat that does not mean that they cannot get them. Additionally chaos tanks are cheap enough (great!) and fluff wise they are too disorganised mostly to have standard razorbacks. Just try it, chaos rhino with havoc launcher and combi-bolter.


They're really not. Comparing vanilla Loyalists tanks to Chaos tanks, their various special rules, and point costs -- they are far from being "cheap enough" or anything of the sort. Also, there is no fluff to support your supposition that they are "too disorganized to have standard razorbacks." I never said that that they needed "standard" razorbacks. I want them to have their own Chaos-version, just as they do for the Predator, Rhino, Land Raider, and Vindicator. There are enough renegade chapters that have gone over to Chaos, enough Dark Mechanicus adepts that have gone rogue, and enough captured Imperial tech to justify it.

[Arkhan Land]

Finally found what I was looking for, IA2 pg.49

Razorback STC rediscovered in M36, sorry chaos

[marful]

Finally found what I was looking for, IA2 pg.49

Razorback STC rediscovered in M36, sorry chaos
Well, it's a good thing over half of the Chaos Renegades are from after M36. AKA Crimson Slaughter.

[Arkhan Land]

hrm, dunno. maybe they read yorkies article and sold the turrets and targeting systems for bolter ammo :p

[Katharon]

Can't forget the Red Corsairs either -- you know, three full chapters that went renegade and have been joined over the millennia by other renegades...

[marful]

Finally found what I was looking for, IA2 pg.49

Razorback STC rediscovered in M36, sorry chaos
Oh yeah, also the STC for the Razorback was re-discovered in M36.

What event caused it to be lost in the first place?


Hint: The same event is where the Emprah almost got deaded...

[Venomlust]

I don't want a Razorback at all. I want a Land Raider without sponsons that replaces the TL Heavy Bolter with a TL Heavy Flamer. 40 points cheaper, standard CSM vehicle upgrade options. I've said this in multiple places, sorry to be a broken record but I think it would be great.

[silashand]

because I want it to be a unique pattern to Chaos.

That would be fine as long as it doesn't look like a idiotic ******* dinobot... :/

[Charon]

I'd rather go for Drop pods. They are in nearly every Black Library Story and it doesn't make sense lacking the most iconic deployment option.

[Katharon]

I'd rather go for Drop pods. They are in nearly every Black Library Story and it doesn't make sense lacking the most iconic deployment option.

Well, the CSM have them via the Imperial Armour books. We in fact have better drop pods than Loyalists do, if you consider them. That said, I personally have never been a fan of drop pod-focused armies.

[daboarder]

Well, the CSM have them via the Imperial Armour books. We in fact have better drop pods than Loyalists do, if you consider them. That said, I personally have never been a fan of drop pod-focused armies.

not really, they are 3 times the price and you dont really need a drop pod to do anything after its delivered its cargo.

[Charon]

Well, the CSM have them via the Imperial Armour books. We in fact have better drop pods than Loyalists do, if you consider them. That said, I personally have never been a fan of drop pod-focused armies.

3 times the price, no ObjSec. I would not call that "better"

[Path Walker]

Oh yeah, also the STC for the Razorback was re-discovered in M36.

What event caused it to be lost in the first place?


Hint: The same event is where the Emprah almost got deaded...

Erm, you're mixing the Age of Strife with the Horus Heresy dude. No Razorbacks in the Heresy or Great Crusade, they were lost long before that.

If you were the leader of a Chaos warband and you managed to capture an Imperial Razorback, baring in mind that you have no really reliable way of manufacting vehicles, would you keep it as a Razorback to carry your six dudes or rip the guns off and carry your full squad?

[daboarder]

Erm, you're mixing the Age of Strife with the Horus Heresy dude. No Razorbacks in the Heresy or Great Crusade, they were lost long before that.

If you were the leader of a Chaos warband and you managed to capture an Imperial Razorback, baring in mind that you have no really reliable way of manufacting vehicles, would you keep it as a Razorback to carry your six dudes or rip the guns off and carry your full squad?

I'd stick a daemon in it.....but I have a thing for daemon engines

[Path Walker]

Thats your solution to everything, stick a daemon in it.

[daboarder]

Thats your solution to everything, stick a daemon in it.

usually works....until feeding time

(then it becomes a very effective team management tool)

[Katharon]

not really, they are 3 times the price and you dont really need a drop pod to do anything after its delivered its cargo.

Chaos Dreadclaw Drop Pod - has frag assault launchers on it allowing a dreadnought/hellbrute inside it to assault after deep striking. All models that are within 3 + D3 inches of the impact sight get hit with a S6 AP5 hit and all vehicles that are hit take that hit on their weakest front. And any unit it would direclty land upon, before moving to settle down for deployment, takes D6 attacks of the same profile mentione before. It's a Fast Attack choice, but then again at century-worth of points it's not a bad deal imho.

Then again, if they would give us the ability to transport regular CSM or infantry in the Kharybdis that would be nice.

[daboarder]

it also lacks inertial guidance

They are a decent tool, but they dont really allow us to run different lists like the drop pod does, at most they offer another deployment option for one or two units if desired. which is pretty small benefit at that price

[Katharon]

it also lacks inertial guidance

They are a decent tool, but they dont really allow us to run different lists like the drop pod does, at most they offer another deployment option for one or two units if desired. which is pretty small benefit at that price

Fair enough. *nods*

[marful]

Chaos Dreadclaw Drop Pod - has frag assault launchers on it allowing a dreadnought/hellbrute inside it to assault after deep striking. All models that are within 3 + D3 inches of the impact sight get hit with a S6 AP5 hit and all vehicles that are hit take that hit on their weakest front. And any unit it would direclty land upon, before moving to settle down for deployment, takes D6 attacks of the same profile mentione before. It's a Fast Attack choice, but then again at century-worth of points it's not a bad deal imho.

Then again, if they would give us the ability to transport regular CSM or infantry in the Kharybdis that would be nice.

And because they lack inertial guidance, what happens if the D6 S6 AP5 hits doesn't destroy whatever is underneath it? I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've had a deep striking unit scatter onto something that forces a mishap only to roll a 1 on that cursed f***ing table!

If it doesn't have Inertial Guidance or "Doesn't Scatter when Deep Srtriking" I don't even bother with it anymore.

[DrBored]

Honestly, as one of the most ornery Chaos players out here, I don't think they should get a Razorback.

I'd rather see them get some sort of crawling mutated weapon battery, or some new cultist tank that we haven't seen yet.

The fewer things that Chaos has in common with Space Marines, the better, in my opinion. We have Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, and we don't really need any more of those 'Space Marine tanks with spikey bits' sorts of kits.

If you want to play a recently-fallen Chapter or something, just use the Space Marine codex and add spikey stuff to your vehicles. You'll have the whole range of Space Marine tools.

The Chaos that I fell in love with is devoted wholly to Chaos and has no qualms about using weird, mutated monsters with guns for faces. Beyond that, honestly, a Razorback would be more of a tactical liability in the hands of Chaos anyway. Once a big gun like that runs out of ammo, do you put more ammo into it, or give that ammo to the stronger Predator, gut the weapon, and put more berzerkers into the new Rhino you have? Simplicity on the battlefield is key to Chaos strategy for one reason: they don't have the same refueling and resupplying ability that Space Marines have. Razorbacks are a fusion between two other tanks that do their individual jobs just fine, so having something 'in between' to maintain just seems costly.

[daboarder]

thats why I suggest something like a 10 man assault ramp transport. would really really help us out a lot to play like they seem to want us too

[Power Klawz]

That would be fine as long as it doesn't look like a idiotic ******* dinobot... :/

But I love the dinobots...

There's Punchy and Shooty, and also Plasmy, I guess.

[Dave Mcturk]

universality. its a common concept in technological development pathways.
one side ups wood to stone; one side ups stone to bronze; one side ups bronze to iron. etc.....

as a 'game' it makes no sense that a 'utility' cannot be taken for the same 'points' - give or take - by either side.

not advocating 'chess 40k' . but fairness for equipment and utility selection. !

for example: tau and eldar can still generally get 'homer' beacons and so can marines and necrons maybe! [not seen new dex]
but csm and DE cant ? {but used to ?}

eldar and tau have st 7 ap2/3/4 coming out of their ears [pointy or otherwise] but plasma is still 'gets hot' - really !
ork rokkit launchers are safer to use. [ever fired one - you really wouldnt volunteer sub extremis]

flamers are amazingly effective but dont ever 'blow' up - really ! [nb: i really miss my locks with auto-destructorz]

eldar war walkers get a 5+ IV - but other eldar vehicles cant even buy the same abiity, demon forged type walkers / vehicles get a 5 + demon save but 'marine' ewalkers cant have it -even though some 'orcz' can can can !