Angel's Fury Spearhead / teleport homers / locator beacons

[Deacon Ix]

This is a query on how people are interpreting the rules regarding the BA Formation: Angel's Fury Spearhead Force.

The way I read it, once it is on the table a BA unit can DS within 12" of 2 models with the TP homer, not scatter and charge on the same turn.

If used with a Baal Strike force formation this could be really awesome, Termies, Drop pod DC dread, Assault squads et al all dropping in and not scattering and then charging at +1I and +1S.

I have a few issues (technical nitpicking really) the formation special rules say 'a friendly BA unit arriving from DS' and in the introduction says it will work well with the Angel's Wrath Intervention Force. The issue is that the rules for the TP homer say that the DSing models have to be in Termi Armour to benefit from it (same entry in the BA and GKn Codexs). The locator beacon says any DSing model (same entry in BA and GKn but in BA it is special issue WG and in GKn it's Vehicle Equip).

My only thought is that GW has c**ked it up or that 2 TP homers triangulate can do some voodoo so non-TPing units can benefit from them.


The Imperium does not do voodoo, that is heresy, go see your commissar for an appropriate *BLAM*ing.

The other query was - if the TP homer is inside a vehicle, can it sill be used (local consensus was yes measured from the vehicle hull)

All thoughts welcome

[Yriel_The_Angelic]

Your original interpretation is correct. Yes, technically teleport homers only work with DSing termies. However, this formation has a specific special rule that overides the original teleport homer rule and expands upon it if it's conditions are met. In this case, the Augur Triangulation, specifying "a friendly unit with BA faction arriving from DS" over Teleport homers specific termies only.

Also I believe you measure from the hull of vehicle if homer is inside.

[Gleipnir]

As was said the Augur Triangulation rule applies to all units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve and is not restricted to terminators, though the teleport homer rules which are also present are strickly limited to teleporting terminators.

It is debatable I suppose if a Stormraven carrying a sergeant with a teleport homer is the same thing as "a model with a teleport homer" but largely the rules have always imparted carried wargear benefits with a radius to transports unless stated otherwise.

[World Of Pain]

There are many questionable things with this formation. Please give out your opinion and/or rule if you know where to find it:

1) If unit deep strinking within 12" of two TH´s in this formation is a Drop pod? Is it enough that drop pod is within 12" and then unit can dissembark 6" AND assault - so you can get assault range UP TO about 33" (12" + drop pod size 3" + dissembark 6" + assault 2d6)?

2) There is no wording in the rules that say that you could not use this on TURN 1 - so can you bring in this formation and then bring in Drop Pods to actually assault from it on TURN 1? I can´t find anything from rules to forbid this because Teleport Homer rules can´t be used in this matter. I think you can do this.

3) RAW says: "If a friendly unit with the blood Angels faction arrives..." So can you actually just add BA captain in Terminator armour to GK terminator squad and make them assult with this rule? I think you can´t.

[Deacon Ix]

Cheers for the replies, it is nice to know that it is not just me that thinks some of this is questionable but nice that we do agree on some points.

@ World of Pain - my thoughts below

1&2) My initial thought was that the TP Homer model has to be on the board at the start of the turn, but you are quite right, there is no specific mention of this in the formation rules, so being that you can choose which order to roll for reserves you could (theoretically) roll for the formation and put it on the table edge.

SR dimensions = L:9" W:10"

2 SR wing tip to wing tip the point 12" from both is 10.9" from the front of the hull (see Pythagoras is useful!) so the DS point would be 20" (9" SR length + 10.9" with a bit of rounding) from the table edge, then add your 3" drop pod radius - 23". The 6" move after disembarking is a bit ambiguous, normally a DS counts as the move for the turn, but a disembarking model can move 6" and then assault (if from an Assault Vehicle), my gut on this one would say no but the rules don't... so add 6" for 29" and then 2D6 assault for 36" average and 41" Max...

My gut on this one though is that the TP homer has to be on the board at the start of the turn. So in response to 1) you could have a threat range of up to 32" (Adding Maths for Accuracy :D) from the SR hull and 2) it could be a Turn 1 assault with a threat Range of up to 41" from the table edge, but I would argue that the TP homer has to be on the table at the start of the turn, just from the TP homer and locator beacon rules and even as a BA player I would feel that it is far to cheesy...

3) Again ambiguous - but I would say no, purely from the long standing 'units must have X faction or none' which is mentioned in most detachments.

[Gleipnir]

There are many questionable things with this formation. Please give out your opinion and/or rule if you know where to find it:

1) If unit deep strinking within 12" of two TH´s in this formation is a Drop pod? Is it enough that drop pod is within 12" and then unit can dissembark 6" AND assault - so you can get assault range UP TO about 33" (12" + drop pod size 3" + dissembark 6" + assault 2d6)?

2) There is no wording in the rules that say that you could not use this on TURN 1 - so can you bring in this formation and then bring in Drop Pods to actually assault from it on TURN 1? I can´t find anything from rules to forbid this because Teleport Homer rules can´t be used in this matter. I think you can do this.

3) RAW says: "If a friendly unit with the blood Angels faction arrives..." So can you actually just add BA captain in Terminator armour to GK terminator squad and make them assult with this rule? I think you can´t.

1 and 2 - the scenario you describe would not be possible since the rules for Drop Pod Assault specify "at the beginning of your first turn" which would mean you resolve the arrival of Drop pods before the arrival of your Deep striking Stormravens so the units in the drop pods would no longer be arriving from Deep strike reserve within 12" of two models with teleport homers.

3 - as GK terminators do not have the Blood Angels faction the rule permitting units to assult the turn they arrive from Deep Strike reserve would not apply to them, faction is not a rule that is conferred by Independent characters joining your unit.

[Deacon Ix]

1 and 2 - the scenario you describe would not be possible since the rules for Drop Pod Assault specify "at the beginning of your first turn" which would mean you resolve the arrival of Drop pods before the arrival of your Deep striking Stormravens so the units in the drop pods would no longer be arriving from Deep strike reserve within 12" of two models with teleport homers.

3 - as GK terminators do not have the Blood Angels faction the rule permitting units to assult the turn they arrive from Deep Strike reserve would not apply to them, faction is not a rule that is conferred by Independent characters joining your unit.

Greipnir - I completely agree with you on the principle and it would be how I will play it but... and this is me being nit picky

Reserves arrive at the start of turn 2 and as this formation can arrive at turn one I would transpose the rule to be 'Arrive at the Start of turn 1'

Drop pod assault is at the 'beginning of your first turn'

we could argue for ever on whether Start > Beginning or vice versa

I just like going back to the 'must have been on the table at the start of the turn'

[World Of Pain]

1 and 2 - the scenario you describe would not be possible since the rules for Drop Pod Assault specify "at the beginning of your first turn" which would mean you resolve the arrival of Drop pods before the arrival of your Deep striking Stormravens so the units in the drop pods would no longer be arriving from Deep strike reserve within 12" of two models with teleport homers.

3 - as GK terminators do not have the Blood Angels faction the rule permitting units to assult the turn they arrive from Deep Strike reserve would not apply to them, faction is not a rule that is conferred by Independent characters joining your unit.

I base my clame on following rules:

Reserves. BRB p. 135: "At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve -"

Drop Pod Assault. CODEX Blood Angels p. 80: "At the beginning of your fist turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normaly."

Spear Head Strike Force. White Dwarf BA formations: "...you can make a Reserve roll for this from the start of turn 1."

Sequencing. BRB p. 17: "...you´ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normaly at the start of the Movement phase or similar. When this happens, and wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved fist, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

I have also never heard a claim that Drop pods should arrive on the table before any other unit able to arrive at that time, so it should not be an issue here.

Correct me if Im wrong.

[Gleipnir]

You are wrong in that Drop pod assault is a special rule applied at the beginning of your first turn while the Spearhead is a special rule that may roll and reroll for reserves on turn 1. Drop Pod Assault never even enters into the Roll for Reserves step of the turn phase its resolves immediately at the beginning then you enter into rolling for reserves.

Yes determining reserves occurs at the start of everyone's turn but only Drop Pod Assault explicitly places its rule "at the beginning" in this example which makes any argument that they are happening simultaneously(thus you select the order) moot. Drop Pod Assaults are carried out before any other reserve rolls.

[World Of Pain]

You are wrong in that Drop pod assault is a special rule applied at the beginning of your first turn while the Spearhead is a special rule that may roll and reroll for reserves on turn 1. Drop Pod Assault never even enters into the Roll for Reserves step of the turn phase its resolves immediately at the beginning then you enter into rolling for reserves.

Yes determining reserves occurs at the start of everyone's turn but only Drop Pod Assault explicitly places its rule "at the beginning" in this example which makes any argument that they are happening simultaneously(thus you select the order) moot. Drop Pod Assaults are carried out before any other reserve rolls.

So what you are trying to say is that wording: "at the beginning" is more stronger for some reason than wordin: "at the start of" - and that because of this you must aply "at the beginning" rule fist?

I think that this is clearly stated in the BRB at the sequence rule as I allready posted before.

Is there any examples, rule quotes or any other things that you can put up here to actually make "at the beginning" be more stronger rule that "at the start"?

[Gleipnir]

At the beginning as it is used in reference to Drop Pod Assault is definitely in context prioritized over at the start of turn references to reserve rolls.

Drop Pod Assault itself references first selecting the Drop Pods to arrive by drop pod assault then the remainder are placed into reserves as normal, what happens then when you have an army wide or formation rule that permits all units to potentially arrive from reserves on turn one including all the other Drop pods do we then ignore the sequenced order spelled out in the rule for Drop Pod assault and read things in the opposite order first rolling for units that arrive from reserve on turn one and then selecting the remaining half of the drop pods that failed on their reserve rolls rounded up to arrive via Drop Pod assault because start of turn and in the beginning mean the same thing? No of course not because common sense and context matter. In this case they are clearly telling you Drop Pod assault is carried out prior to anything else dealing with the reserve phase because the units arrival occurs before reserves as normal even happens.

Spearhead alters reserves as normal in the sense that may re-roll and arrive on turn 1, but that wouldn't mean they magically ignore all that is spelled out in Drop Pod Assault in the sense that it is occurring prior to reserves as normal. It is gerrymandering of rules for gain but hey you find an opponent that is fine with it good luck.

[World Of Pain]

That it is using different words is just bad copy-paste from old editions where there were many ways to say the same thing. "First" or "at the beginning" When you read Drop pod rules it clearly states that those up to half of them arrive from Reserve - it does not force player to begin their landing sooner or later than other units that might be arriving on that turn.

Never in my gaming years when playing with drop pods I have encountered a player who forces me to make drop pod landings first before other reserves that have had a rule to be able to come on board on turn one (like Grand Master Mordrad used to be).

[badbuzz]

Drop pods don't have the assault vehicle rule, so even if you do bring on drop pods after the formation, surely you still can't assault out of the drop pods on turn 1.

[Gleipnir]

Drop pods don't have the assault vehicle rule, so even if you do bring on drop pods after the formation, surely you still can't assault out of the drop pods on turn 1.

Open topped vehicles are assault vehicles