Getting Grey Knight Terminators to work (and not die before they do anything)

[Defenestratus]

Hello All

I jumped on a deal on a nemesis strike force box before the holidays and have since been throwing in a nemesis strike force formation into my Blood Angels (who have largely lost their appeal to me in the new codex).

I love the GK terminator models. They're really super awesome, and I've been running them in a 5 man squad, 3 'berds, 2 falchions, 1 incinerator with a libbyhammer attached. I like how they can deepstrike in first turn, but the problem I've been having is that despite how many red herrings I throw at the enemy to have them ignore my GK's, they dump moderate amounts of firepower into the squad and neuter it mostly before they can do anything really useful. Even a bolter volley punks enough models to make the squad anemic in any kind of combat - even with psychic buffing.

I'm seeing suggestions to run them in a stormraven in order to preserve them up until they make their assault. I have two issues with that...

1) I have a visceral reaction to putting psykers in transports where they're totally marginalized and
2) By putting them in a SR, you're totally taking away the turn 1 deepstrike ability.

So the question is, what am I doing wrong? Why can I not keep my GKT's alive for a single round of shooting in order for them to make it into combat? Is this just an issue with this unit that has to just be accepted?

[DarkLink]

Welcome to playing Grey Knights ;)...

Paladins. Paladins are the answer. With Draigo to soak up ID wounds. Unfortunately, they are neither troops nor HQ, and Strike Squads are significantly worse than Terminators. I've been running Draigo, Paladins, multiple Dreadknights, and one unit of Terminators, and the Terminators are usually low on the priority list. Grey Knights in general have issues, though. Zero anti flyer, can't kill MCs effectively at range without dedicating an absurd amount of firepower to doing so, low model count, etc. I will say, ditch the incinerator and get a psycannon. Only take anything other than psycannons on Dreadknights.

[Defenestratus]

Welcome to playing Grey Knights ;)...

Paladins. Paladins are the answer. With Draigo to soak up ID wounds. Unfortunately, they are neither troops nor HQ, and Strike Squads are significantly worse than Terminators. I've been running Draigo, Paladins, multiple Dreadknights, and one unit of Terminators, and the Terminators are usually low on the priority list. Grey Knights in general have issues, though. Zero anti flyer, can't kill MCs effectively at range without dedicating an absurd amount of firepower to doing so, low model count, etc. I will say, ditch the incinerator and get a psycannon. Only take anything other than psycannons on Dreadknights.

Would love to run Paladins, but I'm using this as an allied detachment and its coming out to be a pretty large chunk of my overall army already. I'm hoping to keep it on the cheap.

I hear ya about the psycannon, I just wanted to use the first turn deepstrike to toast some mofos with the flamer... plus its glued on the dude's arm and I'm not going to start pulling the model apart.

So what you're saying is that GK's just have problems staying alive? Thats unfortunate. I'm thinking of throwing in a sang priest into the squad to try and make it a bit more resilient but I loathe and despise people who toss in unfluffy characters into allied squads, like the baron into the mounted council squad.

[Tyrendian]

maybe a change of approach is in order? Don't have them DS in first turn when the enemy doesn't have that much else to worry about, but hope for them turn two when all your other melee stuff is poised to strike as well? that will make target priority much harder...

[DarkLink]

Yeah, GW has never been able to figure out that expensive elite units suffer from diminishing returns. GK Terminators might be cheaper than normal ones, but after upgrades not so much and still not cheap enough. There are lengthy essays worth of subtle balance issues with GKs. They also don't always make good allies because for the most part, once you spend enough points to get a worthwhile GK force, you don't have points left for your other army.

Dreadknights will not likely disappoint, though. They're not OP as they're fairly easy to kill, but they're fast and have a lot of firepower. They're a very balanced, fun unit.

[Defenestratus]

Yeah, GW has never been able to figure out that expensive elite units suffer from diminishing returns. GK Terminators might be cheaper than normal ones, but after upgrades not so much and still not cheap enough. There are lengthy essays worth of subtle balance issues with GKs. They also don't always make good allies because for the most part, once you spend enough points to get a worthwhile GK force, you don't have points left for your other army.

Dreadknights will not likely disappoint, though. They're not OP as they're fairly easy to kill, but they're fast and have a lot of firepower. They're a very balanced, fun unit.

The DK is down on the list of units to build (want to make some interceptors first) but it presents a unique opportunity to create another threat vector that has to be dealt with... the shunt move from the interceptors is a nice little toy that I'll definitely have fun with that could be used in a similar way.


maybe a change of approach is in order? Don't have them DS in first turn when the enemy doesn't have that much else to worry about, but hope for them turn two when all your other melee stuff is poised to strike as well? that will make target priority much harder...

I suppose I could try that... giving up one of the benefits of the NSF formation though :(

[DarkLink]

The deepstrike is fun, just maybe pair it with lots of Drop Pods. Whenever you have stuff coming in in your opponent's face, you need to present a lot of threats. And even if they ignore thirty Blood Angels dropping in their face and focus on killing the Grey Knights, that's not a terrible trade off.

The Dreadknight does extremely well in games like that. It's dangerous, but it's mobile enough that you can place it where it's inconvenient for your opponent to deal with it. Often, they tend to put off killing it if you play just right, and you'll get several turns of shooting and then make it to assault. Played correctly, it easily makes its points back.

Also, if you don't like the Dreadknight baby carrier, it's easy to swap out the torso for a Dreadnought torso or do a similar conversion, and it looks pretty awesome. I also prefer to ditch the shoulder pistons.

[jeffersonian000]

Paladins are horrible, don't use them! GKT are a better buy. Also, the Psycannon is made for GK TDA, while the Incinerator is more of a PAGK thing. You are better served with GKT toting Psycannon than Pallies with a flamethrower.

SJ

[Defenestratus]

Paladins are horrible, don't use them! GKT are a better buy. Also, the Psycannon is made for GK TDA, while the Incinerator is more of a PAGK thing. You are better served with GKT toting Psycannon than Pallies with a flamethrower.

SJ

I'll head down to the GDub today to pick up another box of GKT to make a psycannon and a brotherhood captain/grand master I suppose.


The deepstrike is fun, just maybe pair it with lots of Drop Pods.

Thats what I was thinking, drop a bunch of furioso's in turn one and then maybe some of that AP1,2 shenanigans will shoot at them instead of the GKT's...

[jeffersonian000]

Magnets are your friends. Magnetize all weapon options (within reason). The day you start playing GK will have you fielding Psycannons and Hammers, but tomorrow may find you needing Falchions and Psilencers due to an FAQ, dataslate, or new release. Or maybe Swords will get a buff, or Halberds work better for your meta, etc.. Being able to swap out without buying more is a godsend in today's 40k.

SJ

[Defenestratus]

Magnets are your friends. Magnetize all weapon options (within reason). The day you start playing GK will have you fielding Psycannons and Hammers, but tomorrow may find you needing Falchions and Psilencers due to an FAQ, dataslate, or new release. Or maybe Swords will get a buff, or Halberds work better for your meta, etc.. Being able to swap out without buying more is a godsend in today's 40k.

SJ

I used to magnetize everything. Now I'm not a college student and can afford to have models of all the different options on everything but my tanks.

I need more GKT's anyways. Can't have enough of a cool model.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been out if college since the mid 90's.

Just from a personal point of view, when I replaced my metal 3rd Ed GK with plastic 5th Ed GK, 6th Ed nerf, 7th Ed balancing, and had to go through "Halberds are great!", "Halberds suck!", "Falchions suck!", "Falchions are great!", "put Hammers on everything!", "Swords are free!", etc.. Magnets made that all manageable, and still lets me hit swap as needed in today's dynamic mess of a meta.

Take Falchions, for instance. They are currently better than Halberds. They did not use to be, and might not remain so. Are they worth $50.00 US to me to swap out, or are they worth $5.00 US to swap out? Frankly, with GW's historic unreliability, I'd rather spend $5.00 on magnets than buy more problems from GW. In point of fact, the new codex required zero changes to my model collection, and that was an awesome unintentional gift from GeeDub ever!

SJ

[Defenestratus]

Take Falchions, for instance. They are currently better than Halberds. They did not use to be, and might not remain so. Are they worth $50.00 US to me to swap out, or are they worth $5.00 US to swap out? Frankly, with GW's historic unreliability, I'd rather spend $5.00 on magnets than buy more problems from GW. In point of fact, the new codex required zero changes to my model collection, and that was an awesome unintentional gift from GeeDub ever!

I outfit my models mostly based on what looks cool. Not always what is good at the time.

[Path Walker]

Magnetised models never really look as good to me, which is whats important to me, I got some Grey Knights when they first arrived in plastic when i was newly returned to the hobby, sold them when I realised they were stinkingly good in 5th edition and didn't want people to think I was "that guy", and they're awesome kits, I had loads of hammers because they look awesome and then the rest with Halbreds because thats what my original metal ones had back in the day!

[DarkLink]

Paladins are horrible, don't use them! GKT are a better buy. Also, the Psycannon is made for GK TDA, while the Incinerator is more of a PAGK thing. You are better served with GKT toting Psycannon than Pallies with a flamethrower.

SJ

Your advice otherwise seems solid, but here, you're smoking something. As someone who has played GKs extensively in major tournaments since they were Daemonhunters, Paladins are very good, and quite a but better than GKT.

[jeffersonian000]

Your advice otherwise seems solid, but here, you're smoking something. As someone who has played GKs extensively in major tournaments since they were Daemonhunters, Paladins are very good, and quite a but better than GKT.

Better is relative. On a per model basis, yep. On a per point basis, not even close. You can have almost twice as many GKT as Pallies for the same points, which nets you: same wounds, more range attacks, more CC attacks, the ability to Combat Squad, and Troop slot. GKT lose FnP and Banner, neither of which improve the chance of not getting ID'd by a pie-plate. GKT also have a bigger foot-print (from having more models), gaining them a lower chance if being wiped out. Combat Squads doubles survivability.

So yes, in a vacuum, Pallies are individually better than GKT. However, on the table, Pallies are a point sink steeling the ability to have better utility and greater survivability in your army. But that's okay, waste those points! They are your points to waste, after all.

SJ

[DarkLink]

Those are amlost entirely very narrowminded comparisons. That's the bolter and chainsword groupthink talking.

Against small arms fire, it's the same number of wounds, but Paladins have the advantage in that you lose combat effectiveness much more slowly since you can have a bunch of wounded guys running around, whilst a wounded Terminator is a dead Terminator. Paladins are also a fair bit cheaper wound for wound. Add in FNP, and against small arms fire they are significantly better.

It's true that paladins are more vulnerable to str 8 ap 2. Luckily, we have a guy named Draigo. As long as you play smart, this isn't a problem, and I say this as someone who has played Paladins in dozens of tournament games against very good players with very nasty armies.

In assault, it doesn't matter how many attacks you have in your army. Concentration of force matters. Terminators either lose combat or get whittled away or fail to do significant damage or are spread to thin to fight in assault effectively on a regular basis. Paladins, on the other hand, do not lose combat. Especially with Draigo attached. Heck, half the time with Terminators, they'll take a few casualties, I'll lose one on overwatch, then the last one or two will kill one Marine, who then flees and then the unit rallies and finish off the Terminators. Meanwhile, I'd wipe the unit with 4-5 wounded Paladins that I would have in the same circumstances. Terminators do not get it done in assault. Paladins do.

In offensive firepower, Paladins get more Psycannons for cheaper. Storm Bolters do jack all, don't waste time or points worrying about how many str 4 shots your army has. It won't do you any good against flying hive tyrants or wave serpents. Paladins are cheaper psycannons point for point, which for Grey Knight infantry shooting is about the only thing that matters. Especially now that Dreadknights are better. They handle hordes incredibly well.

Are Paladins the only unit you should run? No. But they are extremely good. You might have your theoryhammer and whatever bull**** advice you guys on Bolter and Chainsword toss around, but I've been getting extremely good results with Paladins for a long time now. Stick your head in the sand all you want on this.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

That's the bolter and chainsword groupthink talking... whatever bull**** advice you guys on Bolter and Chainsword toss aroundOff topic, but what's up with BoLS and slamming other boards? ("Whineseer" etc etc.) I frequent a couple of boards, but only see these sorta comments on this one.

[DarkLink]

I dunno. It's not like there are plenty of whiners here. And plenty of people who whine about whiners. And people who whine about people whining about whiners. There is a bit more of a tightknit community amongst some of the posters here, and some individuals within that community can be a little... I dunno, egotistical is a strong word, but they definitely have their clique.

I periodically glance over at Bolter and Chainsword's GK section, just to see what's up, but the tactical advice always fails to impress me. Paladins are a case in point, there are like two guys on there who really, really hate Paladins, and they've convinced everyone else Paladins are terrible. Meanwhile, I consistently do very well running Paladins in a tournament setting, and locally we have a fairly large tournament scene with a lot of very good players so it's not like it's just me getting soft targets. Will Paladins get you to the top tables at the LVO? Probably not, but then again nothing in the GK codex will. Other than maybe Draigo in a Centstar with a couple Dreadknights. Now, there is plenty of good basic advice in there. Like I said, I agree with a lot of what jefferson said. But if he says Paladins are terrible, I will take my years of experience playing Paladins in tournaments as solid proof that Paladins are a perfectly good unit. Though the 10pt Hammer upgrade is crap.

Granted, most advice you find from random people on the internet is pretty bad. Outside of a few sites (Frontline gaming, 3++), most people really don't know what they're talking about, and even sites like 3++ will get stuck within their paradigm and don't accept that they may not always be 100% correct about everything.

[jeffersonian000]

Ironically, I'm probably the one you are referring to on BnC, since I post regularly there on the their GK forum.

As to Draigo, every advantage he gives Paladins, he also gives any other unit he is attached to, including GKTs. Not a good argument to say attaching a 200+ point model makes a 300+ point unit better than a 300+ point other unit without said 200+ point model.

As to TDA in general, I'm not worried about massed small arms fire, because either I'm playing smart enough to limit exposure, or I'm not. I find AP2 Last Blasts more annoying, with by chance splats Pallies just like GKT. Except GKT can combat squad and survive more massed fire and pie-plates than the same points in Paladins. Just say'n. Also, for the same points you spend on 10 Pallies to get 4 Psycannons, you could have allied in a Centstar, or taken 3 units of Troop GKT.

But you aren't going to take 10 Pallies, are you? You might take 6, you might even take two units of 3, but you definitely aren't going to take 10. And which unit fills your a Troop slot? 5 Strikes? 5 GKT?

Strikers are bad now, on a ppm basis when compared to GKT. About the only reason to take Strikers over GKT is because they are cheaper or you're playing a Highlander CAD.

On your luck with Pally-Stars ... cool? ... neat? ... keep up the good work?

SJ

[Dave Mcturk]

a little "off topic" and bound to upset the 'you cant do that crew' - but we've house-ruled ALL figures wearing terminator style armour [except those with two or more wounds {characters/oblitz etc} or those made up to T5 or higher {nurgles etc} to having TWO wounds against 'SHOOTING ATTACKS'. It may sound a little complicated but it seems to work.

We were finding all terminators were suffering from the massive amounts of st6 + and ap2 / ap1 weaponry now available in new codexes [ie newdar / tau / newde] also there are more and cheaper [pts] artillery units than can get lucky against terminator blobs.

Like almost all other units the 6th ed changes to cover saves also effects terminator types so the 'extra' resistance makes terminator armour more resilient to firepower; as it maybe should be !

we also considered giving a 4+ iv save v shooting instead - but this seemed to still result in 'terminator evaporation' in certain circumstances.

perhaps people could give it a whirl in 'non-tournament' games and see what they think?

[Defenestratus]

Getting back to my original post - I'm not interested in Pallies at this point. They're simply too expensive once you throw in the librarian to field as an allied detachment. It seems to me that getting sanctuary is key on these guys thus perhaps upgrading the Libby to ML3 and giving him the Domina Liber Daemonica to get that 5th power for the Libby - which almost guarantees he'll pick up sanctuary. Then the guys in grey will at least be able to take a couple plasma shots to the face and not fall over like whiney babies.

Finishing up my other squad for the strike force in a small interceptor squad. This could end up being the hammer when people decide that the terminators are a juicier target.

[DarkLink]

If you're looking for cheap allies, then yeah. Librarian, 5 GKT, and then cherrypick a few units from the GK codex depending on what your main army is. Competitively, if you really want to go to the top tables, about the only way to actually run GKs is with NSF, Libarian, 5 GKT, Draigo, Centurions and a bunch of Space Marines as allies. But if you're not concerned with being absolute top tier, then Sanctic Daemonology Librarian can do fun things, GKT fill your troops, Dreadknights are fun.

Interceptors are kinda pricey for what they do, especially when Dreadknights do the same thing but better. If you're one of the SM armies that can take Drop Pods, I would use PAGK as Purifiers, and pod them in for Cleansing Flame.



Ironically, I'm probably the one you are referring to on BnC, since I post regularly there on the their GK forum.

Thought your name sounded familiar, but I think the guy I'm thinking of is Reclusiarc Darius or something.



As to Draigo, every advantage he gives Paladins, he also gives any other unit he is attached to, including GKTs. Not a good argument to say attaching a 200+ point model makes a 300+ point unit better than a 300+ point other unit without said 200+ point model.

It's not about just what Draigo brings to the unit. One of the main benefits of Paladins is that they're freakin' impossible to kill. The exception to this is Str 8+ AP2. On their own, you're right, not really worth it because their main benefit goes out the window. Adding Draigo to the unit, however, means every single one of their weaknesses other than being expensive basically disappears. Since Paladins are more points efficient than Terminators in almost every meaningful way (more wounds per point, more psycannons per point, and while you're not strictly getting more attacks per point, nothing beats Draigo and Paladins in combat), yes, you can in fact say that a particular 300pt unit is better with Draigo than a different 300pt unit. Draigo synergizes much more with Paladins than with GKT.



As to TDA in general, I'm not worried about massed small arms fire, because either I'm playing smart enough to limit exposure, or I'm not. I find AP2 Last Blasts more annoying, with by chance splats Pallies just like GKT. Except GKT can combat squad and survive more massed fire and pie-plates than the same points in Paladins. Just say'n. Also, for the same points you spend on 10 Pallies to get 4 Psycannons, you could have allied in a Centstar, or taken 3 units of Troop GKT.

If you're not worried about small arms fire, you aren't playing against the same sort of armies I do. I switched over to Paladins specifically because a lot of the lists I face are super-nasty and anything less durable gets shot off the table. Even in the previous codex, power armor guys only worked if you spammed the crap out of them. Tons of PAGK with basically nothing but psycannons in Rhinos with psybolt ammo and rush them. Now that psycannons are salvo and psybolt is gone, even that isn't worth it. Purifiers are still good, but they don't have a good in-codex delivery system so I doubt many people use them.

And I do in fact run 10 man units sometimes. Against certain armies, you can combat squad and run a unit off without Draigo without too much worry. The only real weakness of 10 Paladins is multiple objective missions. Otherwise, you actually don't get much more killy than that. Even if it was just victory points rather than killpoints, a unit of 10 Paladins with Draigo will run around the board murderizing everything in its path.

I also can't tell you how many times I've had a Tau player shrug off my Paladins expecting to be able to hit them with Str 8 Ap 2 from Riptides, only for me to spread out, they only get 2 hits a blast max, and their 3 Riptides do like one wound to Draigo. Then the Paladins shoot back and drop a Riptide with rending psycannons. Granted, that was when you could give them Scout and get up in their face that much more quickly, but the point is that if you play smart, you won't lose Paladins to Str 8 Ap 2 the way you might initially think. And Paladins will survive a salvo from a few units of Broadsides fairly unscathed. Terminators will not.



Now you can't take them as troops, so yeah, GKT. I'm absolutely not saying that GKT don't have their role, I'm just saying that their role is different than Paladins. I've been running the Nemesis Strike Force as a baseline, with 1 cheap Librarian, Draigo, 1 unit of Paladins, 1 unit of GKT, and 2 Dreadknights, then building from there. That core force is about 1300pts, which isn't cheap and it's definitely low model count, but you pack in a lot of psycannons and close combat ability and you're pretty durable. I've been leaning towards maxing out GKT with the rest of the points, though I've also considered running a standard CAD and taking 3 Dreadknights. It's biggest weakness is the lack of skyfire, but Grey Knights are stuck with either mediocre Storm Ravens or allies, so it's not like there's an easy answer, and massed psycannon fire isn't terrible.



But you aren't going to take 10 Pallies, are you? You might take 6, you might even take two units of 3, but you definitely aren't going to take 10. And which unit fills your a Troop slot? 5 Strikes? 5 GKT?

Min Paladin units were stupid even when solodins were a thing. I mean, they were useful insomuch as they got you cheap scoring, but a single Paladin on its own is kinda useless. A unit of 3 isn't much better. 5 models is the minimum, for the dual Psycannons.

I tend to take one unit, since you can only have one Draigo. Since 6-9 doesn't net you any more psycannons, I only take that many if I for some reason can't spend points on anything else. So it's usually 5 with two hammers, two psycannons, and an apothecary.




Strikers are bad now, on a ppm basis when compared to GKT. About the only reason to take Strikers over GKT is because they are cheaper or you're playing a Highlander CAD.

Yup. Strike squads are a complete waste of points.



On your luck with Pally-Stars ... cool? ... neat? ... keep up the good work?

SJ

Dude, I'm trying to be helpful. You say you can't run Paladins? Yes, you can, and I'm trying to highlight cases why they can be good. It's another tool to use. Don't knock it just because it hasn't clicked yet, or doesn't match your playstyle.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm not saying "you can't run Paladins." I am saying "Paladins aren't worth running." Very different points of view. They need to either drop 10 ppm, or gain PML 2 with Sanctuary as a baseline power to be worth takng.

SJ

[Defenestratus]

I'm not saying "you can't run Paladins." I am saying "Paladins aren't worth running." Very different points of view. They need to either drop 10 ppm, or gain PML 2 with Sanctuary as a baseline power to be worth takng.

SJ

I have to respectably disagree. If that were the case then there wouldn't ever be a reason to take normal terminators ever. If the two units had different models then you might have had a point since there's always the "if you like the model for the less expensive unit more than the other" angle, but since the two units share the same slot... you can't make one or the other the clear "winner".

The fact that two seasoned GK players are debating the finer points of each leads me to believe that they're both worthy selections.

[Micawber]

Thought your name sounded familiar, but I think the guy I'm thinking of is Reclusiarc Darius or something.

That guy and his dogmatic and at times borderline opressive presence in the B&C forums was the main reason why I stopped posting there and went back into lurking. Now he was made admin. I'm in dire need of a new forum :o


Better is relative. On a per model basis, yep. On a per point basis, not even close. You can have almost twice as many GKT as Pallies for the same points, which nets you: same wounds, more range attacks, more CC attacks, the ability to Combat Squad, and Troop slot. GKT lose FnP and Banner, neither of which improve the chance of not getting ID'd by a pie-plate. GKT also have a bigger foot-print (from having more models), gaining them a lower chance if being wiped out. Combat Squads doubles survivability. SJ

I agree that overall GKT are the more versatile unit on a point for point basis but apart from the looming nemesis in form of the ID pie-plate the gaps are not as big as some might think.

When comparing the run-of-the-mill 10 man terminator squad with a 5 man Pala squad with apothecary and banner (which is about the same pointswise) the terminator squad comes out ahead in cc against WS 3 or lower but against MEQ the paladins are only shy one wound - WS of 5 and the banner doing work. When adding the same IC to both squads the paladins come out ahead because of the additional attacks granted by the banner.

In the defensive department we see the same pattern - the narthecium indeed makes the paladins much more resilient against torrents of small caliber weapons ("small" including things like plasma :P ) but their vulnerability to Str 8+ kinda balances that out. Now if you add a IC to the Paladins there is again the additional synergy of the IC profiting passively from joining the paladins instead of a GKT squad.

I guess my point is that besides filling their fluff-role of beeing bodyguards for the GK leaders quite nicely by buffing IC's joining them they are also not that far behind point efficiency wise. Warning: results may vary depending on personal experience and local meta.

[jeffersonian000]

I have to respectably disagree. If that were the case then there wouldn't ever be a reason to take normal terminators ever. If the two units had different models then you might have had a point since there's always the "if you like the model for the less expensive unit more than the other" angle, but since the two units share the same slot... you can't make one or the other the clear "winner".

The fact that two seasoned GK players are debating the finer points of each leads me to believe that they're both worthy selections.
True enough.

SJ