WFB 9E "explodes", goes Full Grimdark (tm)

[GrauGeist]

I'm reading the "breaking news" for WFB 9E (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/breaking-wfb-9th-explodes.html), and I gotta say, I like it.

Warhammer Fantasy is going Full Grimdark (tm) in the wake of the resounding Chapterhouse loss, starting completely over to retain only those non-generic things which are clearly GW IP that others cannot legitimately genericize. No more generic Forest Elves or Grey Elves. No more Scottish Dorfs. No more generic Medieval / Renaissance Humans. Full Grimdark, all the time.

Now, sure, a lot of people caution "You NEVER go Full Grimdark," but having had their ***** handed to them in the courtroom, GW has no choice. They now move Fantasy to strong GW IP without any generic Tolkien-based fantasy items.

Which makes a lot of sense. Mantic does just fine making generic fantasy stuff at a lower price point. Warmahordes has distinctive stuff that nobody else can tread on, and likely outsells WFB by a fair margin.

So, tearing everything down to make a new Fantasy, GW finally gets to right-size the game with a small number of armies:
- Chaos (which is GW's true IP)
- Skaven (strong GW IP here)
- Empire (with Dorfs & Ogres)
- Elves (blended together)
- Orcs & Goblins (of course)
- Undead (but no generic Skeletons or Egyptian stuff!)
Lizardmen get the axe, with no further development planned, and a lot of stuff is going OOP.

Not only are they shrinking from 12+ Armies to 6, but they're trimming back the model choices going forward. Sure, you can still play your current stuff - it'll just be overcosted and underperforming compared to the new WFB9 stuff coming out of the gate.

In effect, everybody finally joins my Dogs of War and the Chaos Dorfs.

How do the rest of you like them apples? :D

[Mr Mystery]

Total load of mega-jazz-wank.

[Deadlift]

I think for players wanting to get into WFB its looking pretty good. Its a daunting prospect starting any new miniature game but WFB more so than the rest. Just the sheer size of most of the armies and the over whelming amount of factions. From someone interested its just too much to take in and commit to. This may change that.

I like it and I can see it happening.

[40kGamer]

I think for players wanting to get into WFB its looking pretty good. Its a daunting prospect starting any new miniature game but WFB more so than the rest. Just the sheer size of most of the armies and the over whelming amount of factions. From someone interested its just too much to take in and commit to. This may change that.

I like it and I can see it happening.

While I agree there needs to be better entry points into the game, I would prefer they reintroduce a warband level game like Mordheim rather than nuke the entire WFB system from orbit!

[Mr Mystery]

All about the sliding scale.

The Mordheim style is fun, but doesn't naturally lead into larger collections. Current Warhammer can be played at smaller points levels, but just isn't as much fun.

And additional rule set, offering the bridge between tiddly warbands and (my fave) big honking forces? Makes sense.

Also, wonder if OP typed that out with his left hand?

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, a rule set that includes various scales would make much more sense, especially as opposed to literally throwing the whole game in the garbage and starting over again. One of the ideas I had in my list of ideas for "If I Ran GW" was to create a set of modified WFB rules for "Warhammer Skirmish" and then use that basis to come out with various settings that had their own rules and used the existing Warhammer line of models, something I think would work brilliantly.

Instead, the rumors make it sound like they're trying to create a smaller-scale fantasy game with stylized fantasy models on round bases. Hmm. That's seriously original there, totally good idea for "protecting the IP." And the fluff claims? So basically, magic runs rampant on the world until it finally blows up into pieces floating in a warp-like area of space. Hmm, that sounds familiar... Oh, right! Because that's pretty much how Outland came into existence in the Warcraft universe. Well, there's your irony for the day. Warcraft started using Warhammer as a base, and now Warhammer is (allegedly) pretty much ripping off Warcraft for story elements. Especially funny with the claim that this is all done to "protect the IP," which is the kind of lame BS garbage claims you'd expect from a company whose leaders have their heads too far up their own bums to recognize what's going on.

The limited run models turning the game into a miniatures version of Magic: The Gathering is another wonderfully lame idea.

[Mr Mystery]

The island thing I don't buy at all.

I reckon the Warhammer World will survive End Times. Archaon will be slain, but the Old World will be facing ruination, with the living embodiment of Gods living amongst mortals.

Too much work is going into End Times for it all to be scrapped. Seriously. These books are a labour of love. You can tell by reading them.

[Erik Setzer]

The island thing I don't buy at all.

I reckon the Warhammer World will survive End Times. Archaon will be slain, but the Old World will be facing ruination, with the living embodiment of Gods living amongst mortals.

Too much work is going into End Times for it all to be scrapped. Seriously. These books are a labour of love. You can tell by reading them.


Well... they *could* just take the fluff books and package them as "Warhammer Histories." They're already separated from the rules, and they can throw out print runs pretty easily. You just swap the coves and you're good to go, and can continue to sell all that fluff.

Honestly, if they do the major extreme change and don't do that with those books, I'll be even more surprised at how these guys are trying to run their company like an "Evil Corporation" while being terribly bad at executing ideas that would actually make them a lot of money for little investment.

[Mr Mystery]

Because the latest rumours (barring Harry's stuff) are entirely made up?

Why repackage? That costs more money. Why cough up for expensive moulds for plastic kits, and then arbitrarily drop them a couple of years later, especially as within that timescale, you'd know you were about to drop them a couple of years later. Once the die is cut, it's good for years of casting. Even if it doesn't sell all that well, it's more than robust enough a die to last until it has paid for itself.

Freeing up shelf space? Pull the other one, it's got Bells on it. There's already limited shelf space, so they use their website as a 'virtual stockroom', allowing the stores to stock the top selling stuff, without having to do away with more 'niche' units.

Most of the bollocks listed just makes no sense whatsoever.

[Erik Setzer]

Why cough up for expensive moulds for plastic kits, and then arbitrarily drop them a couple of years later, especially as within that timescale, you'd know you were about to drop them a couple of years later. Once the die is cut, it's good for years of casting. Even if it doesn't sell all that well, it's more than robust enough a die to last until it has paid for itself.

That's the problem with the model blocks. Even with a three-month release window, that might not sell well enough to pay for the mold. Limited releases on plastic kits just aren't a terribly good idea, especially making that the core of your marketing plan.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is why it's most likely utter, utter bollocks.

I think it's a safe assumption that a given die for plastic models is capable of casting up enough to at the very least pay for it's creation to that point (including sculpting, concept etc). Otherwise, nobody would be producing plastic, because it would be the very definition of uneconomical.

[GrauGeist]

Total load of mega-jazz-wank.

...

Also, wonder if OP typed that out with his left hand?

If you're going to cry like a baby, how can you type at all?


Regardless, you're getting Squatted, like it or not. So best you eat a lot of fatty food, because GW doesn't use lube.

[daboarder]

actually funny to see how posters sudden;y understand now the boot is on the other foot

Well GG GW, wont be ever investing in fantasy I dont think.


as to choices in the wake of the chapterhouse case, they had plenty, fixing the keye underlying flaws that the company suffers from as opposed to just another ****ty band-aid attempt would have been the better choice

[GrauGeist]

Yup, it's pretty funny how mad some people are getting.

[daboarder]

Yup, it's pretty funny how mad some people are getting.

I don't blame them, I can completely understand how and why they feel the way they do

[GrauGeist]

Sure, but realistically, they all should have seen it coming. It's just amusing that they're reacting so badly to the very behaviors that they themselves enabled, for a situation that they themselves created. The only difference is that someone finally spells out the consequences of their actions.

[daboarder]

Sure, but realistically, they all should have seen it coming. It's just amusing that they're reacting so badly to the very behaviors that they themselves enabled, for a situation that they themselves created. The only difference is that someone finally spells out the consequences of their actions.

yup, thats it exactly, we are at the final realisation of the poem.


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[GrauGeist]

First they came for the Squats, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Squat.
Then they came for the Dogs of War, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Dog of War.
Then they came for the Chaos Dwarves, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Chaos Dwarf.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Erik Setzer]

Sure, but realistically, they all should have seen it coming. It's just amusing that they're reacting so badly to the very behaviors that they themselves enabled, for a situation that they themselves created. The only difference is that someone finally spells out the consequences of their actions.

Um... no. I shouldn't "see it coming" that a company would just take a big steaming dump all over a lot of customers and invalidate thousands of dollars spent on products. Specialist Games were a heartbreak, but they were "side games." This is one of the Big Two. I see people playing lots of fantasy, and with a lot of models and armies that are being listed as being thrown out. Those people are going to be pushed aside, and then told, "Hey, if you want to keep playing, just drop a few hundred dollars on a new army. Oh, we totally swear we won't make it obsolete down the line like we just did with a huge chunk of the line. Honest!"

It's stupid. Sheer stupidity. The ideas don't make any sense from a marketing standpoint. Maybe if you were a new company. Or if you're really desperate and need to try some extreme insane new method of sales hoping it will spark something because you can't figure out the obvious fixes to your flawed marketing concepts.

[daboarder]

Um... no. I shouldn't "see it coming" that a company would just take a big steaming dump all over a lot of customers and invalidate thousands of dollars spent on products. Specialist Games were a heartbreak, but they were "side games." This is one of the Big Two. I see people playing lots of fantasy, and with a lot of models and armies that are being listed as being thrown out. Those people are going to be pushed aside, and then told, "Hey, if you want to keep playing, just drop a few hundred dollars on a new army. Oh, we totally swear we won't make it obsolete down the line like we just did with a huge chunk of the line. Honest!"

It's stupid. Sheer stupidity. The ideas don't make any sense from a marketing standpoint. Maybe if you were a new company. Or if you're really desperate and need to try some extreme insane new method of sales hoping it will spark something because you can't figure out the obvious fixes to your flawed marketing concepts.

It is stupid Erik, What Geist means is that this kind of response is par for the course for a company that views its consumers with contempt and gloats about them buying "whatever they sell" without asking what the consumer wants. Its the perfect illustration of why GW's problems are entirely the way the board decides their business decisions and not the product or consumers.

[lobster-overlord]

And of course the Brets get crapped on once again...

Oh well, off to ebay with the lot. ;-)
John M>meant to be funny, not a hater...

[Mr Mystery]

If you're going to cry like a baby, how can you type at all?


Regardless, you're getting Squatted, like it or not. So best you eat a lot of fatty food, because GW doesn't use lube.

Unsubstantiated rumour - none of which makes any kind of sense. And flies in the face of stuff listed by a reliable source of rumours?

But by all means, you have your axe, so grind, grind away.

[Reldane]

I personally think that it is safe to say 9th ed will bring a lot of changes weather the rumors are true or not. I wouldn't imagine Games Workshop removing products that are already in plastic, although they might move more of them to direct only, I think the army books being rolled together is probably going to happen at this point to free up more time for other projects. being rolled into one book is going to hurt a lot of armies and people are going to feel hard done too, however I doubt any army will simply cease to be entirely but will be phased out slowly.

But I am not tempted to spend a penny on Warhammer until I know more of what is coming.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Need more information. The rumours sound a bit more like a whole new game than "ninth edition" to me. But at the moment, they're just rumours. We'll see what things look like when we get credible information.

As for "GW getting its *** handed to it in the courtroom", that's a fun spin on what happened. GW weren't the ones who had their assets frozen by the courts. It does seem to have tightened up their operation, that's true, but let's not just start making stuff up, eh?

[Erik Setzer]

It kind of sounds like when they moved from Space Marine to Epic 40K, which was a whole new game rather than a new edition... and promptly sank that game system, which had been one of their "Big Three" systems. All it took was radically changing the rules, changing how armies were built, and even changing the bases that units were put on.

As for the court battle with Chapter House, I won't say they got their butts kicked so much, but yeah, it was basically a loss for them. CH and company can't produce models for any unit or anything that GW has a model for, but they can make add-ons or whatever to their heart's content, or even completely new stuff that uses a similar aesthetic. It's kind of funny that GW's trying to strip out rules for stuff that they don't make models for but that CH or someone else might have, because that shows that they know people buy the games and then get models to support playing the games, not the other way around.

[40kGamer]

It kind of sounds like when they moved from Space Marine to Epic 40K, which was a whole new game rather than a new edition... and promptly sank that game system, which had been one of their "Big Three" systems. All it took was radically changing the rules, changing how armies were built, and even changing the bases that units were put on.

But noone ever played Epic... Didn't you get the memo? :p

[Caitsidhe]

Unless someone at Games Workshop has woken up to smell the coffee, I expect a good deal of the rumors are true. If past performance is anything to judge by, the newest edition of Fantasy will redo the rules in a way which more or less requires you to buy all new stuff, have waves of books (most of which are empty calories) and be chock full of limited editions. The issue isn't really Games Workshop in the big picture scheme of things. The issue is a small cabal of people within that company that, unfortunately, hold all the power. Games Workshop isn't really a big deal. In context they are a tiny corporation. They are not in the big leagues. They are just the big league for a niche market.

In larger corporations, most of the crazy things they do would never have been tolerated, or an entire reshuffle would have happened with the first sign of falling sales. The bad news is Games Workshop can no longer afford to keep ignoring the obvious. Still, they are willfully ignorant. That cabal doesn't like to admit when they are wrong. So rather than address the root of the problem, they go for quick fixes, slap patches, and the blame game. Let's consider the rumors.

Let's say, they do strip down the initial release, cutting back the factions to a paltry half dozen. That fits the pattern. Why? Because it allows them to hurl countless more of these waste of space books at us like a monkey throwing poo at the zoo. :D It means they will get to, for minimal work, release an Arboria Elves book and then a Sea Elves Book or whatever name they can come up with that they can try to lock in as their own IP. I imagine on each race these garbage books which are mostly just pictures and regurgitated fluff could reach a dozen. Even if they do only five for each (not unreasonable) you are right back up to thirty or so factions (although the real difference between them is almost nothing). Minimal work to maximum profit. If you haven't noticed, it is BOOKS that Games Workshop is pumping out faster than anything else. That is because modern publishing on demand allows them to produce those books for pennies on the dollar and then sell them to the consumer for wicked ridiculous prices.

[GrauGeist]

As for "GW getting its *** handed to it in the courtroom", that's a fun spin on what happened. GW weren't the ones who had their assets frozen by the courts. It does seem to have tightened up their operation, that's true, but let's not just start making stuff up, eh?

Oh, I'm not making anything up. GW lost, and lost big.

GW's opening position was that everything that they had ever labeled, thought of, or otherwise used was completely protected as IP, with no room for alternate or related expression.

GW had a big wake up that the generic geometric shapes (e.g. chevrons), generic fantasy (e.g. Mantic), historical elements (e.g. Medieval heraldry), and common icons (e.g. skulls), nominative reference, etc. were all completely unprotected. GW lost on more counts than they won, and they lost where it mattered. By law, anyone could legally create unlicensed compatible and replacement parts as long as they were properly labeled. There is now legal precedent on the books that GW has to overcome if they are going to attempt another claim.

If GW hadn't lost, they wouldn't be making the whole slew of changes that we've seen since CHS. GW learned that the bulk of their Fantasy product was unprotected, and that's a problem for a company that only exists on the basis of its IP. That's why their Chief Counsel was fired.

Pretending that Chapterhouse was anything but a near-total loss for GW flies in the face of objective reality.

[Mr Mystery]

And in the real world, standard litigation practice. If you're gonna sue, sling as much mud as you can.

But don't let us keep you from your whine...sorry, grindstone.

Plus, CH stuff resolved a few weeks ago.....this Warhams stuff has been a long time in planning. But hey, what's reality go to do with anything?

[40kGamer]

That's why their Chief Counsel was fired.

Pretending that Chapterhouse was anything but a near-total loss for GW flies in the face of objective reality.

I missed that! Was there a press release or was it done quietly. Regardless, IMO they didn't remove enough of their 'problem'.

[CrimsonTurkey]

I missed that! Was there a press release or was it done quietly. Regardless, IMO they didn't remove enough of their 'problem'.

Indeed, with the whole CEO search I was really hoping they would get someone who would look at GW like Jorgen Vig Knudstorp looked at pre-turnaround Lego. Both companies are primarily marketed to children, but have large contingents of dedicated adult fans, both companies operate a large retail network, both companies had/have an issue with simply asking people what they want to buy, and both companies have/had issues with expensive tangenital products that detract form the core business.

[Erik Setzer]

Isn't it Mantic who recently started making models for fantasy that look close to WFB and are priced so much better than GW's? Like 20 Dwarfs or 20 Witch Elves for $48 (30 if you got in on the first batches), whereas GW does 10 for $50 or $60, respectively. Sure, they don't use GW's names, but barely-clothed Elf females wielding twin daggers are kind of obvious. They also look pretty good. They might not be usable in a GW store, but people playing at home or in their FLGS will just snag up the much cheaper models. Rather than come up with a competitive pricing plan, GW seems to prefer to chuck models out and replace them entirely. But what's to stop someone just making similar models and calling them something else? You have to do an enormous change to the aesthetic of pretty much all the models in order to prevent that, and it's not really feasible.

Heck, Creature Caster made large demon models that are blatant copies of GW's Greater Daemons, and were able to get away with it. So now either GW tries to completely redo the GD models to look different, or deals with some other company making superior models for that aesthetic. When you have something that unique and someone can get away with making their own version, there's not really anything you can do except start working on making your product more attractive, and a large part of that is pricing strategy.

[Charon]

From Andy Chambers FB Page:


Honestly WFB has needed a severe pruning for twenty years now, too many armies needing too many miniatures. It's sad but 40K outsold WFB back in my day over a decade ago, the reasons for it staying the same and just getting more bloated over the years are all sentimental ones. Roll on super-Mordheim I say.

[Mr Mystery]

Andy Chambers who doesn't work for GW, instead doing Freelance Work, and is, at least according to his own website, living the US where he works for Blizzard (may have changed. Not convinced that web page is up to date).

[Stephen James Hand]

Chaos are Games Workshop's 'true IP'? Not sure Michael Moorcock would agree with that.

There's isn't much of GW's IP in WFB or 40K that wasn't shamelessly nicked from somewhere.

[Erik Setzer]

From Andy Chambers FB Page:

Link?

Also... twenty years? That'd hit back to 1994, at which time there were no Lizardmen or Bretonnians, Chaos and Undead were one book each, you had Empire, no Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarfs, three types of Elves, Skaven, and Orcs & Goblins... Think that's about it. I don't think the number of factions was the problem so much, though they have ended up with too much copying in some of the factions. The number of models needed is an issue, sure, but I think that could have been fixed without becoming a large skirmish game. Heck, 40K also takes a lot of miniatures these days. But WFB ended up taking a lot for each unit, especially with the "Horde" formation, and mega-units started rolling all over the battlefield, with elite units numbering at least 30+. Tack on the issues with the prices, especially for some units, and it was too expensive for a lot of people to get into.

While some pruning could be useful, the amount being suggested is NOT useful. It's not going to be WFB any more. It'll be an entirely new game without any real connection to WFB other than being sort of fantasy.

[Path Walker]

Isn't it Mantic who recently started making models for fantasy that look close to WFB and are priced so much better than GW's? Like 20 Dwarfs or 20 Witch Elves for $48 (30 if you got in on the first batches), whereas GW does 10 for $50 or $60, respectively. Sure, they don't use GW's names, but barely-clothed Elf females wielding twin daggers are kind of obvious. They also look pretty good. They might not be usable in a GW store, but people playing at home or in their FLGS will just snag up the much cheaper models. Rather than come up with a competitive pricing plan, GW seems to prefer to chuck models out and replace them entirely. But what's to stop someone just making similar models and calling them something else? You have to do an enormous change to the aesthetic of pretty much all the models in order to prevent that, and it's not really feasible.

Nope, they look like ****e, I have quite a few, they're cheap, **** warhammer stand-ins. Thats literally the original business model for Mantic.

Comparing thier (restic, urgh) Dwarf Special units to the new GW plastics is a world of difference.

Also, hardly anything is the same size as they seemingly keep forgetting to tell their sculptors about the different shrinkage rates of Restic vs Metal

[Path Walker]

I have two Fantasy Armies, Goblins and Chaos, my Goblin project stalled long ago when I realised that to enjoy the game against the people who play in my area, I would need 60 man units of Gobbos at the least. Thats not fun to paint. Thats a problem, a barrier to entry, when a new person wants to start the game and looks at the cool box of models and then gets told yeah, you'll need at least 3 of those to make a unit, thats an issue.

There needs to be a solution, now, do you impose unit model limits? Or something more drastic, that allows for more innovation and changes? This change does have the advantage of allowing them to throw in new things as they come up with new ideas, something that 40K by dint of being a galaxy rather than one world, makes easier. New things and big events are exciting and generate interest and sales.

I know change to the one escape from the miserable real world and your sad, sad lives is scary, but it isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Charon]

Andy Chambers who doesn't work for GW, instead doing Freelance Work, and is, at least according to his own website, living the US where he works for Blizzard (may have changed. Not convinced that web page is up to date).

Andy Chamber who used to work for GW and used the term "back in my days" that everyone who is not a blind apologist can understand?

[Path Walker]

If it is true, which it almost certainly isn't, then it might be a good thing, Chambers is right, WFB is bloated and daft right now and the game needs to encourage smaller units with more personality, this is pretty consistent fluff-wise with the universe and allows for some really cool stories.

Nothing is being taken away, all the rumours have stated catagorically that you can still use your Dwarves as Dwarves.

But really this does all sound like an idea someone had in a brainstorming meeting

[Mr Mystery]

Andy Chamber who used to work for GW and used the term "back in my days" that everyone who is not a blind apologist can understand?

OH indeed, just pointing out that Andy Chambers is unlikely to be involved in the development process at all, so can only be treated as an opinion piece based on the rumors we've seen, than an indication of deeper knowledge.

Also, please do look up the definition of apologist. It's not 'someone who disagrees with you'

[Charon]

Did I say anything about "deeper knowledge" or "confirmation"?
I presented an (educated) opinion on the matter.

You chose to interpret the comment so that you can build up a disagreement. Because I dont see any contribution in your "ololol he doesn't work for GW!"

[Mr Mystery]

Attempt at perspective.

Many would see the name of Andy Chambers, make a connection, and declare it must be true, because Andy Chambers.

[Charon]

I would argue peole would see the name, read the (not very long text) and figure out that he is talking from his pov.
Not a hard thing to do, even for a non-native speaker.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude, internet. Assumptionsville :p

[Erik Setzer]

If it is true, which it almost certainly isn't, then it might be a good thing, Chambers is right, WFB is bloated and daft right now and the game needs to encourage smaller units with more personality, this is pretty consistent fluff-wise with the universe and allows for some really cool stories.

Nothing is being taken away, all the rumours have stated catagorically that you can still use your Dwarves as Dwarves.

Actually, the rumors included a lot of units and even entire armies being wiped out. That's a lot being taken away. You might want to go read them before commenting further, you seem to have missed the batch that people are actually concerned about.

As for smaller units, they used to actually put cats on the size of elite units and all, but they took almost all unit size caps off in order to sell more models. That backfired tremendously as games got to be too large and, while they made some extra money off existing customers, it made the game too daunting to get into for new customers (one of the complaints I hear about WFB), which has actually led to fewer sales than might otherwise have been possible.

They could actually fix WFB with some relatively minor changes and additions. But if these rumors are true, WFB is going to die and some new game will take its place.

[daboarder]

HAAHAHAHAHAHA


Sorry, GW wont do what?


http://i1.wp.com/waaaghgaming.de/wordpress.waaaghgaming/wordpress_live_6Fu8/wp-content/uploads/thanquol_boneripper_runde_bases.jpg


Goodbye fantasy, GG

[Darren Richardson]

HAAHAHAHAHAHA


Sorry, GW wont do what?


http://i1.wp.com/waaaghgaming.de/wordpress.waaaghgaming/wordpress_live_6Fu8/wp-content/uploads/thanquol_boneripper_runde_bases.jpg


Goodbye fantasy, GG

sigh said this once before Boneripper is on a square base, just the war machines aren't

[daboarder]

sigh said this once before Boneripper is on a square base, just the war machines aren't

yes I know, check the time stamps on my post

[Mr Mystery]

Anyways - more sober and reliable rumour mongers (ie Harry) seem to suggest that the forthcoming rules aren't a replacement as such, as an addition. A way to play Warhammer at a smaller scale than we currently can.

[Caitsidhe]

Anyways - more sober and reliable rumour mongers (ie Harry) seem to suggest that the forthcoming rules aren't a replacement as such, as an addition. A way to play Warhammer at a smaller scale than we currently can.

The problem with that theory is it would fly in the face of all the current moves Games Workshop has made over the past miserable three years. :D Why on Earth would they now about face and produce an addition that says, "sure you can just by a small number of models and play this!" If the rules were good (big if with this company) they would undermine their other brands because nobody in their right mind is going to play bad rules which require suitcases full of models when they can play better rules and use only a handbag. :D

This kind of change is an ALL OR NOTHING affair. They can't create a good add on and not submarine the larger product. They can only replace the larger product if they smaller one is better. However, if it is another BAD add on... sure... it will be business as usual for them... which currently is falling sales. :D

[Mr Mystery]

Oh don't talk rot.

Warhammer as it is is a really solid game. Only hurdle is that it doesn't really do small games that well. The mechanics are based around units of 20 upwards in most cases.

Harry's rumours (as in those we can regard as fairly reliable) say it looks like an addition to the game, rather than a replacement. This opens up the game (as you have been saying they should, not that your points are ever mercurial at all. Oh no) by lowering the number of models needed to play off the bat. And with current Warhammer seemingly still going, there is good incentive to build up larger armies over time, as there will be something to do with them (sadly often a flaw with the more popular model ranges - we quickly build up armies, squadrons, batallions and that to a size which the skirmish mechanics weren't designed for). Note that I said incentive - not need. If the skirmish rules are good, you won't need to aim for the larger scale games at all. But I'm betting many would, simply because as illustrated above, ever growing collections seem to be a consistent trend across games.

40k already has this - it's a more flexible system than Warhammer.

[Kirsten]

those rumours would certainly be the kind of thing people have been interested in. and now people whine about the possibility of it.

Warhammer is fantastic as it is, the rules are brilliant. and I would welcome additional ways to play it too. ideas change, directions change, are expanded on, modified. for all that people ***** about GW doing things a certain way (which is never actually demonstrable in facts), people need to bear in mind that this is still relatively new. Eight editions over thirty years is not enough to draw any sort of conclusion as to their overall motive. it is the same with 40k. the early couple of editions were testing the water, then you get a stripped down version, then a few editions reintroducing some depth. there are not enough data points plotted on this graph to get a convincing result.

[40kGamer]

Oh don't talk rot.

Warhammer as it is is a really solid game. Only hurdle is that it doesn't really do small games that well. The mechanics are based around units of 20 upwards in most cases.

Harry's rumours (as in those we can regard as fairly reliable) say it looks like an addition to the game, rather than a replacement. This opens up the game (as you have been saying they should, not that your points are ever mercurial at all. Oh no) by lowering the number of models needed to play off the bat. And with current Warhammer seemingly still going, there is good incentive to build up larger armies over time, as there will be something to do with them (sadly often a flaw with the more popular model ranges - we quickly build up armies, squadrons, batallions and that to a size which the skirmish mechanics weren't designed for). Note that I said incentive - not need. If the skirmish rules are good, you won't need to aim for the larger scale games at all. But I'm betting many would, simply because as illustrated above, ever growing collections seem to be a consistent trend across games.

40k already has this - it's a more flexible system than Warhammer.

Even if it is an add on game using round bases for one and square for another would be madness!

And 40k doesn't scale down well (or even balance at the same PV that well) unless you either impose restrictions on what people can bring or plan the armies together. We are currently at an all time high point for rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock in the 40k verse.

[Mr Mystery]

Not been my experience of 40k.

Point is that 40k can be played at lower points than Warhammer can. The Warhammer rules are about blocks of infantry, rather than squads. Even heavy infantry like Chaos Warriors are best off in a 5x4 block as a minimum. The only ones that really break this are Monstrous Infantry, who I would say 3x2 is the minimum to get impact.

8th Ed dealt with the upscaling of Warhammer beautifully. More models get to fight, no more front rank wipes - lovely. Dealt with a valid criticism that in honking great blocks (oh, hi Gobbos!), very few of the models you've bought, built and painted ever really did anything except die.

And I've also said it may have gone too far. It's not that Warhammer now only works at large points levels (3,000 points upwards if you ask me), but that the game gave the impression that's how it should be played, and the downscaled games didn't get any benefit.

From the rumours, it seems they're happy with the upscaling rules as is, and have instead focussed on how to make the game fun and cool at much lower points.

And that's only a good thing. The round base thing remains to pan out as to how it's being implemented. Right now, beyond rumour and a single picture, we just don't know.

[Path Walker]

I think Fantasy can work at smaller values, however, people need to restrict the size of units if they do that, it only takes one player to use a massive unit to ruin the game.

When I started playing, Fantasy units were 20-30 at most, special units were often 10, this is a much more achievable goal for a hobbyist starting in the hobby, but the current rules don't work for that unless everyone you're playing agrees to it, thats where the scale problem lies.

[Erik Setzer]

Warhammer as it is is a really solid game. Only hurdle is that it doesn't really do small games that well. The mechanics are based around units of 20 upwards in most cases.

There are some easy fixes that don't require the kind of madness the rumors indicate. In 6th edition (maybe even 7th?) they had rules for Warhammer Skirmish and Warbands, rules for playing smaller level games. Skirmish was more detailed, kind of like Mordheim but not quite as detailed. Bringing those back would help. Similarly, reinstate unit size limits for elite, rare units. It's insane to go into a game and see the "core" units be minimal size units and then a huge block of something like Phoenix Guard. Also, tweak Horde formation to work for cheaper troops, not elite troops, in order to discourage its use more. This will help regular games go back to multiple blocks of moderately sized units maneuvering around the battlefield.

Maybe a few tweaks to magic, a couple other cleanups, ditch the Banner of the World Dragon and burn it in a fire... WFB could easily be made a lot better.

The core problem was when they decided they wanted to sell a lot more models and geared the game toward that. In the short term, it probably seemed like a good sales move, but long term, it turns off new players, as it's too expensive to get into. With a set of additions to give an option for smaller battles (and making sure you tell potential new customers that), you can suck in new players, who in time will indeed buy more stuff, and you get the money anyway. It's the barrier of entry being a problem.

[Caitsidhe]

This opens up the game (as you have been saying they should, not that your points are ever mercurial at all. Oh no) by lowering the number of models needed to play off the bat.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not mercurial at all. I've never said that they need to lower the number of models people need to play. I've said they need to improve the quality of the rules so they are balanced and reduce prices. I don't care if the game has a low or a high model count and have never considered that to be the crux of the problem. :D Privateer uses a low model count, comparatively, but that doesn't mean I think Games Workshop should copy that aspect. Their problem is awful rules and excessive prices. This is made worse by zero market research, poor customer relations, and bubble business culture. Addressing any (or all) of those things would help them far more than a poor man's copy of a small unit tactics game which if done well will undermine their other product and if done poorly does nothing for them. :D

[Erik Setzer]

And I've also said it may have gone too far. It's not that Warhammer now only works at large points levels (3,000 points upwards if you ask me), but that the game gave the impression that's how it should be played, and the downscaled games didn't get any benefit.

I'm going to see how it works out starting today. Local GW store is doing escalation leagues for 40K, WFB, and LOTR (simultaneously, ending with a tournament where players play a round of all three... yes, this should be amusing, but I like it, and it's actually a smart move to increase sales). 40K and WFB are both being set at 500 points to start, hitting a max of 1000. But he's adding a twist: No magic item, special powers, anything that you have a points allowance to purchase. And in 40K, no relics. Also, no special characters.

I'm already running into issues, especially with the "you must field a minimum of three units." With armies like Elves and Chaos, you can only have a couple small units of infantry, maybe a small unit of cavalry or monstrous cavalry or even a monster, and a hero. The unit sizes are really small. With Orcs, Empire, armies like that, you can field more troops... but don't have much to stop the really nasty stuff on the other side. I've got an hour to decide which army to take, and I'm still not sure. (Well, the issue with Empire is that I don't have the book. And for Dwarfs, I'd need to actually assemble them.)

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and like I said elsewhere, about the different bases: They likely painted up new models on new bases for shots for the new game, but Thanquol needed to be done for the current version, so he's still on a rectangle base, and there's a chance he might not even be in the new version, so why make him on a round base?

[Mr Mystery]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not mercurial at all. I've never said that they need to lower the number of models people need to play. I've said they need to improve the quality of the rules so they are balanced and reduce prices. I don't care if the game has a low or a high model count and have never considered that to be the crux of the problem. :D Privateer uses a low model count, comparatively, but that doesn't mean I think Games Workshop should copy that aspect. Their problem is awful rules and excessive prices. This is made worse by zero market research, poor customer relations, and bubble business culture. Addressing any (or all) of those things would help them far more than a poor man's copy of a small unit tactics game which if done well will undermine their other product and if done poorly does nothing for them. :D

Yes you have. Repeatedly. Particularly in the 2014 thread in Corporate. You said they need to lower the entry barrier.

But now you're claiming they shouldn't do that.

Which is it to be?

Excessive prices? Identical to PP's pricing structure (to continue the theme). Reduce the number of models needed to play a game, and you're making the game easier to get into. Keeping the larger scale rules caters for those already with large armies, and those who find their collection continuing to grow.

Now, I don't care which one, but if you could choose a stance and stick to it, that'd be great.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes you have. Repeatedly. Particularly in the 2014 thread in Corporate. You said they need to lower the entry barrier.

Lowering the entry barrier is better achieved by lowering PRICES. It is the cost to get into the game that is the issue, not how many men you push around the table.


But now you're claiming they shouldn't do that.

Which is it to be?

No, I'm not. I think lowering the entry point is great. We still don't know what these rumors are going to equate to, but I suspect it is far more likely to be a total revamp of the game and not the add on that you think. This is because I don't think they will make a product to compete with their own product. :D


Excessive prices? Identical to PP's pricing structure (to continue the theme). Reduce the number of models needed to play a game, and you're making the game easier to get into. Keeping the larger scale rules caters for those already with large armies, and those who find their collection continuing to grow.

Yes, I would agree... if your theory about the rumor is true... they would appear to be trying to copy Privateer Press. That is a losing proposition. That is like all those other card games that think they can catch Magic the Gathering. :D Games Workshop is way too late to compete with Privateer Press in a low model count tactical game. That ship has sailed. What they need to do is fix their own rules, lower the cost to enter the big scale tactical game which they still dominate.


Now, I don't care which one, but if you could choose a stance and stick to it, that'd be great.

I am of the same stance now that I have always been. They don't need to become someone else. They need to fix THEIR rules and lower THEIR prices.

[Mr Mystery]

Uh huh. Right.

Lower price - you need to raise sales by the same percentage as the cut just to make the same profit. To make any discount felt? You're probably looking at a 20% price cut (common figure bandied about the interwebs), and in turn 20% more sales, because the cost of producing and distributing hasn't gone down. So to really make an impact with said cut, you need to increase sales by 25%. Oh, and somehow not piss off all those who bought prior to the cut... Which would generate even more complaints.

Lower cost to start - you get more people playing, and thus more sources of potential income. The more people play, the more game is seen to be played, and the community starts to generate more and more players itself.

And it's not a theory about the rumour. It's what the reliable rumour source has stated. But hey, let's not get facts involved eh? Only makes things trickier to complain about. There is no reason to scrap what already exists. For a start, those models released in 8th Edition? Their costs are pretty much done. They own the warehouse, so stock storage isn't an additional cost. The moulds themselves? Well, given they're used, it's a more than reasonable assumption they can reliably churn out enough sprues to make their development costs back without wearing out, or nobody would be using that casting method. You'd only lose money/waste investment if you released a resculpt and retired the by then old mould.

And indeed, Harry has said nothing about stuff getting 'squatted'. Reducing the number of factions doesn't equate to reducing the number of units available to said factions. Good examples so far? Nagash, Glottkin and Khaine. Three books. Three factions. But within those three factions, 8 armies (Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Warrior of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos, Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves) are still represented. Only one which doesn't offer all the units available is Khaine, in the final list. And that's because they got squished.

[vonDietdrich]

Lower price - you need to raise sales by the same percentage as the cut just to make the same profit. To make any discount felt? You're probably looking at a 20% price cut (common figure bandied about the interwebs), and in turn 20% more sales, because the cost of producing and distributing hasn't gone down. So to really make an impact with said cut, you need to increase sales by 25%. Oh, and somehow not piss off all those who bought prior to the cut... Which would generate even more complaints.

Lower cost to start - you get more people playing, and thus more sources of potential income. The more people play, the more game is seen to be played, and the community starts to generate more and more players itself.

The Warhammers are still, by far, the most expensive games to get into, for a variety of reasons. So long as GW continues its triple-tap business strategy (charging for the rules, codex, and the models), they can't even come close to competing with the other games that are taking up space at independent hobby shops.

Let's consider MSRP in USD.

The Rules, $58 (webstore exclusive so also add some shipping, expect the $85 version at retail. Assuming the new player is Ebay savvy and picks up a mini-rulebook, $30).
Two squads of tacticals and an HQ is approximately $100 (using Blood Angels prices since they're a recent release).
Codex, $50
Two vehicles or elite squads (Terminators, predators, etc), approx. $100

Assuming the absolute minimum for a barebones army, you're looking at over $300 plus peripherals before you have an army that can play anything approaching a pick-up game of 40k, and another few hundred dollars of investment are going to be needed to bring this up to a respectable force.. At best, you can get this at a 20% discount through independent retailers.

EDIT: Yes, Dark Vengeance is a thing, but it's only even close to worthwhile if you like either army. Why? Because you'll still have to purchase the codexes for either force if you want to use them as Allies, driving the cost up a solid $50 per, plus probably another box or two because the models in Dark Vengeance aren't even a decent core force.

Fantasy is even more expensive due to the increased model count (and lower points per model). Bringing it in line with 40k still means it is an order of magnitude more expensive to play than its competitors. That's not an improvement.

Obviously, this is an incredibly daunting investment, especially if you don't have regular players locally. In practice, this means that without Warhammer players around, it's much less likely that there will be new Warhammer players.

Since we're already beating the dead horse that is PP vs GW, let's continue using that comparison.

If you can find someone to split a two player starter with, that's $35 apiece for a rulebook and two solid beginning armies... everything you need to play. Additional model purchases come with their rules in the blister, so you don't have to shell out for an expensive codex just to play. Privateer Press also doesn't control their prices in the same draconian fashion that GW does, meaning it's often possible to find them at up to a 40% discount if you look around.

In other words, it's about $70 for two players to start playing Warmachine, as opposed to approximately $600 altogether for the two of them to begin playing either Warhammer with small armies (which need to be doubled or tripled for "regular-sized" games). And that's assuming only one person picks up a core rulebook.

Infinity's Operation IceStorm and WW: Exodus's two player starter box offer similar deals.

Games like Warmachine and Infinity can get away with charging high prices per model (though not as expensive as Warhammer HQ blisters, usually) because you need dramatically less models to play functional armies. High model count and high price per model, on the other hand, is the main factor that's suffocating entry into the Warhammer community. Pick one, GW.

Locally, my Warhammer group has disbanded altogether and moved on to smaller model-count games like Infinity, Wild West: Exodus, and yes, Warmahordes. The prohibitive factor is cost, and putting that factor into context is very simple. If GW currently makes a minimum profit of $300 per new gamer (that isn't buying second-hand armies, which are a much better option price-wise to enter Warhammer most of the time) and is still losing money, they need to rethink their entire business strategy. I personally dropped several grand on Warhammer armies that saw regular play in the past, but I only really dust them off if I get in the mood to paint anymore.

They need to cut prices somewhere, and unless they decide to make their rulebooks free (lol), I don't see reducing Fantasy's cost of entry to be equivalent to 40k's as even coming close to fixing the problem. 40k has been coasting by on its previous popularity and the loyalty and financial investments of its playerbase for a few years now, but that can only go on for so long.

To me, Caitsidhe's point is not only obvious, it's self-evident. Very few people want to drop that kind of cash to get into a tabletop game, one they're not even sure they'll like, and if the player pool for the game is stagnant or shrinking (due to the costs, or poor rules, or what have you), there's even less reason for new players to enter the community. Overall, it creates a downward spiral. It might take another few years to play out, but it's not a healthy state for any game community to be in. Toss in shoddy rules that punish pick-up gamers and you've got a recipe for a shrinking fan base.

[daboarder]

Now, I don't care which one, but if you could choose a stance and stick to it, that'd be great.

Does this mean that we can bring your "i dont like it" stance back up if the rumours about bubbles, round basese and squated races turn out to be true? or are you just going to keep slidding down the acceptance ladder and by the time it happens (if) you'll say it' all a good thing.

As to what people asked for, I really dont think i've EVER seen someone asking for dwarfs etc to be squatted, models to be routinely made obsolete and for GW to go further with its limited edition access.


EDIT: As to accessibility I'd like to add some of my own anecdotal evidence (yes this is entirely opinion)

see about a decade ago when GW was expensive but reasonably priced I used to be able to impulse buy small things from GW at teh end of the week when I had 20-30 extra from my weekly budget. I cant do that now, not even close, at that rate its a planned purchase of 3-6 weeks before I can afford anything.

Now this is bought into emphasis with my recent introduction into infinity (and no I'm not espousing the glories of another game, infinity is good but it has its issues) and given the price I find myself continuously going to impulse buy with the 20-30 I occasionally have left. those impulse buys would be significant chunks of alternate forces, for example 3 weeks of such impulse buys would give me an entire ariadna force.

Its this lower entry and lower secondary imput that has the negative impact on GW, because the universe they have built is interesting enough that I still WANT to make different forces for it, I just cant justify the investment with the way GW behaves

[Chronowraith]

I would also like to point out that EVERY other Fantasy model in the White Dwarf and the leaked White Dwarf showing the Storm Fiends shows the models on square bases. The only Fantasy models shown on round bases were the Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace. So I think running around shouting that the rumors are true is a bit premature.

I do agree with Mr Mystery that it is quite possible that low point games for Warhammer will use more streamlined rules with models on round bases. But that is pure speculation on my part.

[Charon]

Lower price - you need to raise sales by the same percentage as the cut just to make the same profit. To make any discount felt? You're probably looking at a 20% price cut (common figure bandied about the interwebs), and in turn 20% more sales, because the cost of producing and distributing hasn't gone down. So to really make an impact with said cut, you need to increase sales by 25%. Oh, and somehow not piss off all those who bought prior to the cut... Which would generate even more complaints.


20% is about the cut I do get it from other retailers.
Just think about this:

I have 2 GW stores in my town. And still I order from a FLGS in the UK, pay shipment to Austria and STILL beat GW store prices by 20%.
So lets see... my purchases from there was exactly 3.577,70 BPS over the last year. So how much do you think GW lost just by their huge profit margin in their shops/webpage?

[Houghten]

And if GW lowered their prices by 20%, how much do you suppose said FLGS would lower their prices of GW products?

I'm betting 20%. In which case GW wouldn't actually get any more sales out of you that way, because it would still be cheaper for you to buy from the other store.

[Mr Mystery]

20% is about the cut I do get it from other retailers.
Just think about this:

I have 2 GW stores in my town. And still I order from a FLGS in the UK, pay shipment to Austria and STILL beat GW store prices by 20%.
So lets see... my purchases from there was exactly 3.577,70 BPS over the last year. So how much do you think GW lost just by their huge profit margin in their shops/webpage?

Because with third party stores, GW accept a flat level? I know it wasn't your point in particular, but 20% less to the FLGS doesn't mean they then pay 20% less to GW.

And yes - Australian prices are all wonky compared to others. This is known. Not going to do a breakdown or mumble on about relative costs of living and wages and that though.

DB - Yes, I do progress my views. Initial reaction is 'Really? Nah' because a great many rumours these days are utter, utter nonsense. Then another one comes out, adding credence to earlier rumours. I'll go with the evidence ta.

But to say 'obviously they need to do X', and then claim by doing X they're idiots, well that's a very different bag of bananas.

[Chronowraith]

EDIT: As to accessibility I'd like to add some of my own anecdotal evidence (yes this is entirely opinion)

see about a decade ago when GW was expensive but reasonably priced I used to be able to impulse buy small things from GW at teh end of the week when I had 20-30 extra from my weekly budget. I cant do that now, not even close, at that rate its a planned purchase of 3-6 weeks before I can afford anything.

Now this is bought into emphasis with my recent introduction into infinity (and no I'm not espousing the glories of another game, infinity is good but it has its issues) and given the price I find myself continuously going to impulse buy with the 20-30 I occasionally have left. those impulse buys would be significant chunks of alternate forces, for example 3 weeks of such impulse buys would give me an entire ariadna force.

Its this lower entry and lower secondary imput that has the negative impact on GW, because the universe they have built is interesting enough that I still WANT to make different forces for it, I just cant justify the investment with the way GW behaves

The money issue really is the greatest barrier for many. I sympathize with your anecdote completely as that is what happened to me as well. I make more money than I ever have (roughly double what I made in 2008/09) and yet, if I want to buy into a new release like the recent End Times Thanquol book... I have to plan ahead and set money aside. There is no room for impulse buys and even when there is a clamshell pack that I could afford as an impulse buy I have to consider, "Well I can buy this one model or I could buy much more for a different game".

Just look at the past two weeks of releases. The Verminlord and Thanquol are two models (large as they may be). That's 167 dollars for two models. Without planning ahead, that already covers my entire gaming budget for the month and that's only two weeks worth of releases.

[Erik Setzer]

Lower price - you need to raise sales by the same percentage as the cut just to make the same profit. To make any discount felt? You're probably looking at a 20% price cut (common figure bandied about the interwebs), and in turn 20% more sales, because the cost of producing and distributing hasn't gone down. So to really make an impact with said cut, you need to increase sales by 25%. Oh, and somehow not piss off all those who bought prior to the cut... Which would generate even more complaints.

See, the thing with the "lower prices" argument is that you can't do a flat cut across the board. Some stuff is priced fine, others stuff is priced insanely. You need to look over them, and figure out what might need to drop, and by how much. Some stuff does need to drop, and it would lead to increases sales of those products.

That should be couple with lower price for starting the game. And that's where some huge price drops, or ways to get around the current expense, come in. The rules are bloody expensive, before you even start buying models. That needs to change. The high price "works" as existing customers are stuck with the choice of paying for a new set of rules or dropping the hobby they've invested so much in... but it prevents newer customers being eager to get into the game. That's a big issue.

There's no "easy fix." It would cost money and time to do the research needed to figure out how to resolve issues for the maximum sustainability going forward. You need price research, and then you need to put in place a means to help ease in new players, and you need to really advertise these things. It might suck for people who've already spent more, but heck, people are used to that overall, as electronics drop in price all the time, as do video games (heck, I get most of my video games at 1/3 to 1/2 of what their original retail price was, just by waiting a couple months). World of Warcraft did something similar, when they decided to roll all prior expansions into the Battle Chest, so you only need the $20 chest and the latest $50 expansion, rather than the old method of $20 for Chest (vanilla and BC), $40 for Wrath, $40 for Cata, $40 for MoP, and then $50 for WoD, which by now would be $190 total. Sure, some people griped... but most people understood it was better for the health of the game, and without people buying in, the game isn't as much fun. GW games are the same: You need people to play the game, and to get those people, you need an affordable game. Cheaper buy-in, no prices that could make people choke (like Witch Elves or Blood Knights).

But, again, that would take time and money... and the current management seems to see no problem because even while revenue and profits are dropping, they're still making some money, so why waste some of it trying to figure out how to make more?

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno dude. The boxed sets are quite well priced in the market.

Main issue with Warhammer's one is that it's not as complete a gaming experience as 40k. It's got a bit of everything in it. but then there's a lot to Warhammer.

Price cuts aren't the answer. Cost for cost, GW's kits really aren't much more expensive than their competition. Let's take one with a noticeably high price - Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter. £35 for 10 models. That's pricey in anyone's book.

Compare with Winter Guard Rifle Corps from Warmahordes (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/privateer-press/warmachine/khador/units/winter-guard-rifle-corps/prod_20044.html). RRP for 10 plastic models? £40. That's also pricey.

Aesthetics and personal preferences aside, that's two boxes of plastic models for quite a lot of moolah each. If made as a Sisters of Slaughter, the Witch Elf box is a single box unit, but as Witch Elves, yeah you're gonna want a second one. This is the main advantage of PP - you rarely need more than a single box to have a workable unit.

Now, release a rule set where that single box is all you'll need for a battle ready unit? Well, that pricing structure apparently works for PP, why not GW?

As an aside, this is one of the things that always puzzles me about price discussion. People use PP as an example of a cheaper alternative, but box for box they're often comparable, or much more. For the RRP of those Rifle Corp, I can very nearly buy two units of Savage Orcs, which is more than enough for a battle ready unit :)

[Mr Mystery]

What they need to crack is for each box you buy to be a feasible unit in it's own right.

Units of 20 Stormvermin and boxes of 6 Ogres pretty much do that, as do plastic Skirmishers.

But most aren't. Even Gobbos which come in 20's really need to be doubled up, because Gobbos are just that weedy!

So an additional rules set to allow just that makes financial sense. Not everyone will be willing to spend say, £300 to enter a new game (that should get you a decent starter army), but most would be happy with say £100 to £150. With the apparent 'super Mordheim' that may be about to happen.

Yet what of those of us unfazed by the current costs and prices? If you change the whole of the game to skirmish scale, you're just limiting the amount of money I'm willing to spend on a spangly force. Why would you do that, when you already have a solid rules set with no real ceiling (Warhammer does scale really well in this regard, particularly as even if I field a Skaven Slave army, rather than moving hundreds upon hundreds of models individually, instead I'm sliding around say, a dozen or so large blocks)?

It's also something no other company is really doing at the moment, or about to do any time soon. One could say GW have cornered the market in large scale SciFi and Fantasy gaming. The ground they've ceded is the smaller scale - that which used to be covered by Specialist Games.

Re-enter that market, but with the forces transferable in some fashion to grander scaled engagements, and you're probably onto a winner. Certainly when I first started out in gaming, you could field a 500 pointish Warhammer army, but always aspired to the sprawling forces I now prefer. Get that back, and you might even start squeaking out some competitors altogether. After all, we all like collecting models - that's universal across all Miniature games (seriously, models sell regardless of rules, because a nice model doesn't actually have to be useful to us). So even with Skirmish scaled games, we soon end up with far more models than we can feasibly use in a single game (such as my X-Wing squadrons...) Now - give me a way to use all those models in a single game, and I'll just keep on buying!

[Charon]

Because with third party stores, GW accept a flat level? I know it wasn't your point in particular, but 20% less to the FLGS doesn't mean they then pay 20% less to GW.

And yes - Australian prices are all wonky compared to others. This is known. Not going to do a breakdown or mumble on about relative costs of living and wages and that though.

DB - Yes, I do progress my views. Initial reaction is 'Really? Nah' because a great many rumours these days are utter, utter nonsense. Then another one comes out, adding credence to earlier rumours. I'll go with the evidence ta.

But to say 'obviously they need to do X', and then claim by doing X they're idiots, well that's a very different bag of bananas.

Not Australia... Austria... that little country next to germany which spawned one of the most famous mass murderers of all time.

Ok lets break it down for you as you obviously dont want to think about it.

GW sells a box to the retailer for 100 €
The retailer goes on and sells the box for 160 €
GW itself gives the same box to its own GW store and sells it for 200 €

Me as a customer do decide now that I will get the Box from the retailer. Saves me 40 €
Question: How much did GW get?
Answer: 100 € from the retailer

How much did they want to get?
200 € from me

What could they have gotten?
160 € from me, the same I was willing to pay the retailer.

How much did they lose?
Depends. 100 € because I decided to NOT go in a pricey GW shop, or 60 € which I would have been willing to pay to them.

So yes, they actually LOSE potential money even whenthey get paid by the FLGS.

[Mr Mystery]

Pricey GW shop which has to pay for the rent, business rates, electricity, staff, fitting, public liability insurances etc.....

GW make more money on a sale by sale basis through FLGS than their own stores. Advantage of their own stores is that they then control local recruitment.

Anyways.


DB - part of Harry's quote about him being vague whether this is a full new edition thing.


I have been around and around with this in my head ..... the only thing that makes any sense to me at the end of the day is that 8th edition is complete enough and robust enough to endure a bit longer and 9th edition will not be a complete new edition of the rules .... but an alternative background and rules with which to play post End times battles but you still need the core rules to play A bit like all the stuff in Strom of Magic was an add on to the existing rules. The core rules and books will still exist for those that want to remain stuck in the timeline but if you want to be down with the cool kids you really need to buy the new post End Times stuff.

[Charon]

Pricey GW shop which has to pay for the rent, business rates, electricity, staff, fitting, public liability insurances etc.....

Which the FLGS desnt have to pay because... magic castle in the clouds with unicorns and a rainbow bridge.
Sorry you are really getting more and more desperate.


GW make more money on a sale by sale basis through FLGS than their own stores.

So... they actually dont want to make money? Strange business model.

[Mr Mystery]

Beginning to think you're deliberately misunderstanding.

GW sell at a flat rate to FLGS. I understand it's about 60% of local retail. After producing the kit and shipping it, GW's costs end there and then. Flat rate, standardised profit margin.

Their own stores? Well, the costs in getting the kit to said store are the same, if not possibly slightly cheaper as regular delivery routes and amounts might lead to arrangements with delivery companies. After that, they have to pay for each store. According to this article from March 2012, found after a cursory Google (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rent-day-spells-dday-the-crisis-on-our-high-streets-7584575.html) shop rents are an average of £110 per square foot in the UK - which I assume to be the annual rather than monthly cost, on account nobody would be able to run a business if those costs were monthly.

As of the last report, they had 137 stores in the UK. Using the article above, Game Group with 600 stores were faced with a shop rent bill of £15,000,000. So just under a quarter of that for GW stores - probably around the £3,500,000 mark. Then you need staff for those stores. Most are one man stores, with just a manager. When I was on the GW manager course, a noob Manager would be on £14,000 per year. So minimum there? Wage bill for £1,918,000 per annum.

From that, we can infer, and attributing costs equally per store, that each one costs something like £39,547 a year just to have a door and someone to open it. Business rates add to this, as do various other ancillary costs.

Sales through FLGS make good money. Sales through GW stores make good customers - as for the most part, GW don't have bricks and mortar competition in the UK - and if the interwebs are to be believed, FLGS have a nasty habit of going out of business elsewhere in the world when GW come to town. But either way, everyone who walks into a GW with money to spend is spending money on GW products. FLGS? Not so certain.

In short? Your original hypothesis is flawed, because you have assumed there are no additional costs to GW selling through their own stores.

[Charon]

In short? Your original hypothesis is flawed, because you have assumed there are no additional costs to GW selling through their own stores.

I do not.
you seem to assue FLGS get their stores and employees for free. They have to pay EXACTLY the same amount of money as any GW store. There is no extra charge for beeing a GW store that other stors do not have to pay.
Point is still standing.
GW gets their flat rate profit margin from selling to the FLGS.
The FLGS gets his profit margin from selling to me.
GW stores also WANT to get a profit margin from selling to me.
GW doesn't get any more profit margin from me as I decide to give my money to the FLGS.

Is it now understandable to you?


Sales through GW stores make good customers - as for the most part, GW don't have bricks and mortar competition in the UK - and if the interwebs are to be believed, FLGS have a nasty habit of going out of business elsewhere in the world when GW come to town.

Sure. Brainwash inc. I guess thats why they reduced so many stores to one man shows... because no competition and good running GW stores.


But either way, everyone who walks into a GW with money to spend is spending money on GW products. FLGS? Not so certain.


Which does not matter at all? Anyone going to a FLGS to buy the next D&D Book is not going to a GW store anyways.
I'm talking of potential customers who are willing to spent 160 € on GW products in the FLGS but do not spend 200 € on the same products in the GW store.

Dont know what you are trying here between balatant propaganda and assuming that a FLGS has no cost but its not working out.

[Archon Charybdis]

I do not.
you seem to assue FLGS get their stores and employees for free. They have to pay EXACTLY the same amount of money as any GW store. There is no extra charge for beeing a GW store that other stors do not have to pay.

You seem to be trying exceedingly hard to miss his point. The other costs of doing business that an FLGS incur is irrelevant to how much Games Workshop makes when selling them the product. The additional costs a GW store incur to do business are NOT irrelevant to how much money GW make. Selling an FLGS a kit for $50, for them to turn around and sell at $80, might in fact be more profitable than selling the kit themselves at $100, depending on just how much additional cost operating the store adds.

[Charon]

Selling an FLGS a kit for $50, for them to turn around and sell at $80, might in fact be more profitable than selling the kit themselves at $100...

the problem is: they do both. It would be totally right if they just supply the retailer who in turn tries to get rid of the stuff. But as they happen to sell EXACTLY the same stuff at a higher price, this logic does not work out.
They sell a kit for $ 50 to the retailer. They just earned $ 50.
The retailer sells the kit to me for $ 80. the retailer just earned $ 30.

Now GW tries to sell me EXACTLY the same stuff for $ 100. I say "no" and stick to the retailer. GW still gets his $ 50 from the retailer INSTEAD of getting $ 80 from me.
So yes, in a world where 50 is more than 80, 50 would be indeed more profitable. But as this is not how maths works, this tactic is atrocious.

So they still have their additional cost but getting $ 30 LESS than they could have gotten.
Its even more fun in Vienna where GW is on the same street as 2 other FLGS, both cheaper than GW and 3 - 5 minutes away... if you walk slowly.
But I guess the reason why they went from a big store with 4 tables to a small store with barely one table left while one of the FLGS expanded and has now a big hobby center is because "FLGS are going out of business when a GW store opens nearby"

[Mr Mystery]

Precisely.

The running costs of an FLGS matter not one jot to GW. The running costs of their own stores very much do. All those costs need to be covered by the sales. And that overall profit margin is going to vary on how busy a given store is.

For instance, my local store is in a wealthy area. And it's pretty busy. When I worked there, we hit target every month for a year, often exceeding it. Target was in the region of £8k a month. That's £96,000 a year. Going on my rough figure above? After the running costs of it as a now one man store, that's £56,453 a year left. The other costs I don't know enough to hazard a guess at. But don't forget, here in the UK, 20% of every sale is VAT, and goes to the Government. Or £19,200. So from those takings of £96,000, £37,253 is starting to look like potential profit. Except business rates can be a killer here. Local GW store, according to a UK Government website is rateable at £24,000. So now, those £96,000 takings are down to £13,253.........

So, based on those figures above? Roughly a 13% profit margin, all because of the bricks and mortar....

Tell me again how you buying through an FLGS, who pay 60% of GW retail for their stock is somehow sticking it to GW?

Oh, and that VAT? It's not paid on Trade transactions here in the UK, but by the final outlet. So for every £100 sold to FLGS, GW are actually keeping an additional £20, as it's not them liable for the VAT, which of course adds to the profit margin quite singificantly.

[Charon]

Tell me again how you buying through an FLGS, who pay 60% of GW retail for their stock is somehow sticking it to GW?

Again. Because GW only gets the 60% from retail instead of 100% from me.
Their running costs do not change a bit. They pay the same if I buy from them or the FLGS. Except I do not buy from them so they generate LESS money then they could.

Mind to enlighten me how it is benefitial to get 60 % instead of 80% while your costs are the same?
And they could easily get 80 % instead of 60 % if they would not try to charge 100 %

[Mr Mystery]

You really are working awfully, awfully hard to get this wrong, aren't you?

First up, as I just added to my previous post - VAT at 20% is paid by the final seller. So far Trade Accounts, it's not GW liable for that.

Selling to you through their own store, by my rough figures, nets them around 13% profit, just because of the store.

Buy from a FLGS or Website? They make more money in profit.

Dude, I'm not often deliberately rude, but please never try to run a business.

[Charon]

VAT at 20% is paid by the final seller.

Wrong. VAT at 20% is ultimatively paid by the CUSTOMER.
Yes, the final seller sends it to the tax office but the customer paid for it. BASIC price calculation.
In fact GW also has to pay 20% everytime they sell something. No matter if they sell to the retailer or the customer. Please...



Selling to you through their own store, by my rough figures, nets them around 13% profit, just because of the store.

Which could be more if people would not buy from nasty FLGS.


Buy from a FLGS or Website? They make more money in profit.

Still no, as this is money the shop could have made too. Sorry... this is MORE money the shop could have made.


Dude, I'm not often deliberately rude, but please never try to run a business.

Actually I have a fine running business ;)
I guess the major problem is that you assume things that are not even remotely correct.
And please don't take it too hard that im not going to take business tips from an ex-redshirt.

So a final time and extra easy for you.

GW store with fixed costs of 1000 credits a month sells 15 boxes at 100 credits each. They earn 1500 credits, thats 500 credits profit.
They also provide 40 boxes at 60 credits each to a local FLGS. They earn an additional 2400 credits, making 2900 credits profit at the end of their month.
Totally shiny... and thats where you stop thinking.
Lower price model:
GW store with fixed costs of 1000 credits a month decides to fight the FLGS price and prices their boxes at 75 credits each. Thats a price the FLGS cant afford as it would literally eat its profit.
People STILL want their precious boxes. And as GW is now CHEAPER than the FLGS, they start by from their store more.
So now they suddenly sell 55 Boxes at 75 credits each. Suddenly they go for 3125 credits profit at the end of their month. How could this magic happen? Pretty simple they now get the FLGS profits too.
Even better... the FLGS still tries to sell boxes and still sends you a little bit of credits for the boxes that are taking away shelf place now.

The only way this would not work out if people like to pay higher prices and do buy way more in GW stores than in FLGS.
I would also accept the argument that there are way more FLGS than GW stores and they act as a seller in areas you do not plan to place a GW store. But then again the price the FLGS charges there is of no concern to you as you still get your 60 credits per box from the FLGS.

Or even simpler:
I left (rounded down) 3500 GBP in a UK FLGS this year. According to your numbers (60%) thats 2100 GBP for GW from the retailer.
Flashnews: If GW as cheaper or even EVEN with the FLGS price, GW would have gotten 3500 GBP from me as I would not have bothered to look for another source of plastic crack.

[Mr Mystery]

Yes, GW might have gotten £3,500 off you, as opposed to the £2,100 via the FLGS.

Except, in a GW store, they'd only keep £455 of that......

[Charon]

They STILL have to pay the fixed costs of the store. No matter where I buy they always have their running costs to pay.
Do you think just because they dd not make sales they suddenly have not to cover their costs anymore?

Yes they would probably keep only 455 of that but thats 455 they CAN keep. The profit percentage does NOT CHANGE when the source changes.
When the get money from the FLGS they still have to pay their bills, they still have to play their rent and still have to pay their employees. So that 2100 they get from FLGS ALSO goes down to 273 which is still LESS than 455.

Srsly.. you are so wrong here that it starts to hurt... applying taxes only on one sale, fixed costs are only payed when they actually sell something in person...
Please... just stop. Your remak that bad weather in UK was damaging GWs worldwide profits was kind of funny... but this is just... ludicrously.

[Path Walker]

Nope, GW make more money selling from FLGSs than they do through their own shops or website. Thats why they can scale down on the stores in the US, they don't need to stores to be where people buy their product.

A GW store is primarily a recruitment tool, its more like an advertising cost than anything.

I try and buy a good deal of my GW stuff from my local GW though, because I like the staff, they open 7 days a week and stay open till 8 on a friday, I appreciate them as they're good people, so I pay there to help them as individuals.

[Mr Mystery]

They STILL have to pay the fixed costs of the store. No matter where I buy they always have their running costs to pay.
Do you think just because they dd not make sales they suddenly have not to cover their costs anymore?

Yes they would probably keep only 455 of that but thats 455 they CAN keep. The profit percentage does NOT CHANGE when the source changes.
When the get money from the FLGS they still have to pay their bills, they still have to play their rent and still have to pay their employees. So that 2100 they get from FLGS ALSO goes down to 273 which is still LESS than 455.

Srsly.. you are so wrong here that it starts to hurt... applying taxes only on one sale, fixed costs are only payed when they actually sell something in person...
Please... just stop. Your remak that bad weather in UK was damaging GWs worldwide profits was kind of funny... but this is just... ludicrously.

Sales to FLGS - GW not VAT liable, so that's a significant saving right there, enough to already trump the profit margin demonstrated for their own stores in my rough figures.

[Wolfshade]

Far too much off topic to even attempt to re-rail.