500 point first SMarine army:)

[Shadowscream]

Hi, I'm looking for some final advice for my sons first army - he's currently more interested in painting than playing and despite being young did an excellent job on an ultramarine....
Can you guys look at the two lists below - I suspect the 2nd is stronger and whilst it's a mobile army that might suit White Scar's better , I think White is much less forgiving than "blue"!
The first list was meant to be a fun alternative - not sure about the Basic Razorback - the other option was to use a Rhino (-20 points) and give a JPack to the Librarian and have him run with the Vanguards.....
Any suggestions or improvements would be appreciated!

Ravenguard:

HQ Librarian & plasma pistol (75 points)

Troops 10 tactical Marines --> Combat squads
5 with meltagun, in basic Razorback (librarian goes with them)
5 + Mlauncher
(220 points)

5 Scouts + CCloaks + Sniper Rifles
(70 points)

5 Vanguard vets with JPacks Power weapon x2
(135 points)

500 points

Not sure about a "basic" Razorback vs a Rhino....

Ultramarines

Librarian (65 points)

Troops 10 tactical marines, Flamer & ML, MBomb + Rhino
5 with flamer + librarian in the rhino
5 with ML
(200 points)

5 scouts, MBomb + Land Speeder Storm with Heavy Flamer
(105 points)

Fast Attack
5 bike marines, 2 meltaguns, MBomb
(130 points)

500 points

Not sure about Landspeeder storm vs cheaper CC/Sniper scouts - saves 35 points & drop 1 MBomb from bikes/tactical squad and we could have a Razorback with twin-linked lascannons instead......but would be less mobile and less "fun" to paint?

[Dave Mcturk]

marines are one of those difficult armies at small point values where you cant take everything !

at lower points [under 800 or mb even under a 1000] - just take rhino's for speed and flexibility - and to keep men in metal boxes as long as possible. take two meltas where you can or a melta and a plasma. if you know you nd flamers - fair enough - but ML are pretty much a waste of space !

above 1500 pts dont think you can beat razorbacks in 7th ed . forcing jinks out skimmers keeps tanks alive. and playing enemy ground vehicles the TL lascannon is the marines best long range anti tank. [follow up with plenty of meltas for short range finishing]

appreciate your son is 'building' an army from the ground up. but the five man jetpack unit is very vulnerabnle - would be tempted to put your libby on a bike to run with them or the bikes - or even [risky] give him a jetpack ?

again at low points its difficult - but id run two squads of three bikes rather than a five ? all marines have krak grenades so maybe only one melta per squad ?

if youre running speeders you really need a scout bike squad with locator beacon to make the most of them - again at small points very hard to get everything in !

and marine snipers are lovely models - but i really wouldnt !

i generally run 7 or 8 razorbacks and a few rhinos for speed - and we normally play 1750 points!

[xTHExCLINCHERx]

First of all, you can build a really fun and fast list at around 750 points with Marines, so I'd shoot for that. If using Ultramarines chapter tactics, remember that Tactical Marines gain some great benefits, as do Devastators.

Your second list has a lot of good units, and I wouldn't change much. The land speeder storm and Scouts inside are great, and very flexible. I'd give them all close combat weapons probably to fit the open-top / flamer profile of their transport.. plus they can benefit from the assault doctrine of your chapter tactics; the melta bombs are great too.

The Tactical Squad will serve you best as a 10-man unit, combat squadded inside the Rhino, with a plasma & combi-plasma. They are good at mid-range shooting against infantry, and the plasma shots will help ensure you kill a few models and hopefully force a leadership test. Don't waste time/points on heavy weapons for this squad since you want to move around and use the tactical doctrine.

I like the idea of the bike squad with melta weaponry, and I'd put your HQ on a bike to ride with them. I'd definitely try to take 2 melta guns in a 5-man squad, and I'd even look into upgrading the Librarian to a Captain (and eventually Chapter Master in larger games) to get a bigger threat in there. A marine bike squad can be a very good unit to have. If you model the HQ in such a way, you can use him as a Librarian, Captain, or even Chapter Master down the road!

One more thing I'd look into buying/adding is a Devastator Squad. Although not as mobile as the rest of your army, they are great anti-tank with lascannons, and even do well with plasma cannons since the devastator doctrine can be used to move them and still fire. Also, to start I'd try to just get a small squad of 5, with 2-3 heavy weapons (approx. 100 points?) and eventually up to a squad of 7 (some ablative wounds) with 4 heavy weapons (a lascannon squad like this costs about 180).

Hope that helps!