Can Spore Mines Assault?

[HsojVvad]

I posted this on anothe forum and some people will not accept hat they can, so I thought I would try here and see if the opnions change. I will copy and paste it exactly as I said it in the other forum so we all debate about the same thing.

Spore Mines are allowed to assault other enemy units. No where in the Tyranid codex (we are talking the 5th edtion Tyraind codex here) does it say it cannot do it. Is this an oversite on GW? We don't know because so much has chaned from 4th to 5th. Lictors and Carnifex were single units, now act in broods if more than one is chosen in the same FoC slot. So this could be another change so we can't go by RAI.

Someone said, Spore Mines can't assault because of WS 0 and they have no A. Ok lets go to the BRB page under Charateristics on Page 7. There is a paragraph that has a heading Zero Characteristics. Please read this. Basically it says a defensless model will have no attacks whats so ever, and a WS of 0 will be automatically hit.

This applies to our Spore Mines with WS 0 A 0.

So lets go by the rules.

1a) No where in the rules does it say it isn't allowed to assault. Living bomb rule in the Tyranid codex page 48 tells us what the Spore Mine cannot do. A Spore Mine cannot go to ground, cannot fall back and cannot run. It dosn't say anything about that a SM cannot assault. Also no where else in the codex does it say it cannot assault.
b) Page 93, in the FA section the unit type states it's Infantry. So there fore it can Assault like a normal Infantry unit.

c) Page 33 BRB under Disallowed Units, no where in there says a Spore Mine cannot assault. So since it is not doing any of the activites stated, it can assault.

2) The Spore Mine is within 6" of an enemy unit. It can assault.

3a) As soon as it makes contact with an enemy model, since its the only model in the SM unit it stops.

Now here is the part where people complain. Does the mine explode right away because it came into contact with an enemy model. Yes it does. The thing is that most people don't think of, is, as the mine is exploding, the other models in the enemy unit have to rush within 6" of the model being assaulted. So all models have to be moved just like in a regular assault. Once this is done, place the blast template over the SM and then deal the damage.

Picture Braveheart or something like that. When the person in the front is charging the enemy line, his comrades are a following him at the same time. They don't stand there and watch untill he makes first contact with someone. It's all done at the same time. When the enemy sees the other side rushing, they all rush in the same time as well. They don't stand there and wait till the opposing team rushes their comrade.

So all condtions are met, SM explodes as soon as contact is made, but the other models have to come in as well.

b) for those who say the Spore Mine dosn't explode right away, since it has a WS of 0 and A of 0, we go to page 7 of the BRB under Zero Characteristics. Since the SM whas WS and A of 0, it looses right away and takes a wound. Since it took a wound it explodes.

As we see the SM explodes no matter what happens. The opposing player then wins the CC round and can consolidate.

Yes I know I am new to the rules, and I am the first one to admit I don't know the rules very well, I just go by what I read. So I basically have to go by RAW. (read as written)

If I have made any mistakes please let me know and explain, with page numbers so I can go back and see where I made a mistake in my judgement.

Let the debates begin

[Nabterayl]

Could we just cross reference (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=4583&highlight=spore+mine) instead? Pretty sure the "local" BoLS lounge consensus is that spore mines can assault.

[Drew da Destroya]

Yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to, although I hadn't thought about the enemy's consolodation move. That's pretty nasty!

It makes sense from a fluff standpoint as well. The mines are still the Hive Mind's creatures, just really crappy ones with bad gas. They randomly float around until their primitive senses notice something nearby, and they head on over to check it out.

[Tynskel]

Lets say the Spore Mine does get to assault (which is rather redonkulous):
Rules as Written- 'If a Spore Mine Suffers a wound, touches an enemy model, impassable terrain, or it ends any Movement phase within 2" of an enemy unit, it immediately explodes.'

The spore mine DOES immediately explode. This happens when it TOUCHES an enemy model- since it is immediate, there is no "counter charge" by the enemy unit. You do not move the enemy models to engage first, then bomb goes off. The Spore touches the enemy and blows up. In fact, since there is no unit left to 'counter charge', the enemy doesn't even get to move.



However, as a side note: You could go with "rules as intended" In the History of Warhammer 40k, the spore mine has never 1) run (there was running in 2nd Edition-but the spore mine could not run) 2) Charged. None of the previous editions ever had the spore mine do this.

[DarkLink]

Could we just cross reference (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=4583&highlight=spore+mine) instead? Pretty sure the "local" BoLS lounge consensus is that spore mines can assault.

When I originally saw this thread, I thought it was the other thread about spore mines. That other one isn't even that old:rolleyes:

[HsojVvad]

Oh man I am losing it. I freaking made a post in the other section. How the heck did I forget that? ARGH! I can't believe I did this.

Sorry guys, I am loosing my mind.

[DarkLink]

Sorry guys, I am loosing my mind.

Don't worry, we'll help you find it again;).

[Jwolf]

Immediately would seem to preclude other models being forced to move closer due to defenders react.

[Drew da Destroya]

Immediately would seem to preclude other models being forced to move closer due to defenders react.

That's a good argument. Plus, from a fluff point of view, while I could see one or two guys in the squad being caught off guard by the mine, I don't really see the entire squad shouting "Hey! Look at that floating thing! Let's get it!" ...Well, maybe the Orks would.


Also, quick off-topic dialect question. Is "Loose" in British English the same as "Lose" in American English? I see it used often enough around the forums that I'm pretty sure it's not a typo, but just an alternate spelling (like Check vs. Cheque, or Color/Colour).

[Lord Anubis]

Also, quick off-topic dialect question. Is "Loose" in British English the same as "Lose" in American English? I see it used often enough around the forums that I'm pretty sure it's not a typo, but just an alternate spelling (like Check vs. Cheque, or Color/Colour).

No it's just an ongoing example of people who 1) never learned how to spell, or 2) insist they do know how to spell, because they're spill chick program said every ward was write.

;)

[slxiii]

"Now here is the part where people complain. Does the mine explode right away because it came into contact with an enemy model. Yes it does. The thing is that most people don't think of, is, as the mine is exploding, the other models in the enemy unit have to rush within 6" of the model being assaulted. So all models have to be moved just like in a regular assault. Once this is done, place the blast template over the SM and then deal the damage."

No. The rule specifically states that the spore mine detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, that means no pile in, no assault hits, it hits, explodes, the enemy consolidates. nobody piles in because it explodes before that could happen. Isn't a living assault capable large blast good enough?

[Deej]

Also, quick off-topic dialect question. Is "Loose" in British English the same as "Lose" in American English? I see it used often enough around the forums that I'm pretty sure it's not a typo, but just an alternate spelling (like Check vs. Cheque, or Color/Colour).

I wish it was, but unfortunately it's just dullards being misled by the (admittedly stupid) pronunciation. It drives me insane on a regular basis, as it's a mistake often made by semi-professional writers.

[HsojVvad]

"Now here is the part where people complain. Does the mine explode right away because it came into contact with an enemy model. Yes it does. The thing is that most people don't think of, is, as the mine is exploding, the other models in the enemy unit have to rush within 6" of the model being assaulted. So all models have to be moved just like in a regular assault. Once this is done, place the blast template over the SM and then deal the damage."

No. The rule specifically states that the spore mine detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, that means no pile in, no assault hits, it hits, explodes, the enemy consolidates. nobody piles in because it explodes before that could happen. Isn't a living assault capable large blast good enough?

But all models move at the same time during an assault. The only reason why one model is moved in an assault is to see if it's legal. Would you want to move 10, or say 30 gaunts and then find out the move is illiegal because we are a fraction of an inch off and have to move all the models back.

But it should go both ways. What if an enemy wants to assault a Spore Mine. If we go what you say, a group of 10 terminators assault a Spore Mine, only one model is able to make contact. Since the assault took place and the Spore Mine has to explode, that would mean the assaulting terminator is out of unit coherency and the unit can no longer fire or move, since as you said no models can consolidate. It has to be fair for both parties for models to be able to consolidate.

Either Spore Mines assault and all units move in, or if a Spore Mine is being assaulted, the assaulting unit can not consolidate either.

OR and I don't like this, Spore Mines cannot assault and no body can assault a Spore Mine. I don't like this option at all. That goes agaisnt the rules of what is written.

Is there any units in 40K that can't be assaulted?

[HsojVvad]

An idea just came to me. A reason a Spore Mine explodes Right Away is because of the random nature of the rule. You roll 5" and scatter. You have to go through a straight line. If an enemy model is 4" away the Spore Mine touches the enemy model, it explodes right away so damage can be delt now instead of forgotten later.

Also say there is 10 Spore Mines in a line blocking an enemy group. Now this group wants to move forward but can't because of the spore mines in the way. If for some reason the enemy dosn't choose to shoot the mines, (because of other enemies near by to choose from) OR was really unlucky rolling the dice, and missed all the shots, they would have to attack it then. So if Spore Mines can't assault, that means you can't assault the Spore Mine (because we can't agree asw to how to relay damage, even though explanations were given and were resuded) then you have to spend anthour turn at shooting them. Maybe this is why 5 or 10 Space Marines would assault a Spore Mine to clear the way for other weaker units to get through.

[slxiii]

But all models move at the same time during an assault. The only reason why one model is moved in an assault is to see if it's legal.

But it should go both ways. What if an enemy wants to assault a Spore Mine. If we go what you say, a group of 10 terminators assault a Spore Mine, only one model is able to make contact. Since the assault took place and the Spore Mine has to explode, that would mean the assaulting terminator is out of unit coherency and the unit can no longer fire or move, since as you said no models can consolidate. It has to be fair for both parties for models to be able to consolidate.

Either Spore Mines assault and all units move in, or if a Spore Mine is being assaulted, the assaulting unit can not consolidate either.


all models do not move at the same time, attackers move first, THEN defenders react. the spore mine explodes when it comes into contact with an enemy, that is BEFORE pile-ins.

no, it doesnt mean they are out of coherency and cant move. They must try to get back into coherency in their next movement phase is all.
basically, if a spore mine assaults, it detonates right where it hit.
If a unit assaults a spore mine, it explodes.
In both cases, the non spore mine unit consolidates after removing its casualties(if there are any)

[Tynskel]

actually models do not move at the same time: p. 34, (I am not going to direct quote, there's a whole page, I am paraphrasing). Start by moving a single model... after moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any SEQUENCE you desire.

This means a few things. 1) you move one model at a time. 2) the models move, then stop, then select new model. 3) once a unit is complete then move onto next unit.

p. 48 If a spore min suffers a wound, touches an enemy model, impassable terrain, or it ends any Movement phase within 2" of an enemy unit, it IMMEDIATELY explodes.

Immediate means Stop what you are doing, and now do this process.

Example: Squad of Space Marines, 2 Spore Mines, 3 Warriors. I declare the Spore mine 'one' (they are ALWAYS separate units) to assault. I make the distance moved, and upon touching the enemy model, I immediately center the blast template over the Spore Mine, roll damage, ect. ect. Second Spore mine...

Tah Dah!

[Starion]

Also, quick off-topic dialect question. Is "Loose" in British English the same as "Lose" in American English? I see it used often enough around the forums that I'm pretty sure it's not a typo, but just an alternate spelling (like Check vs. Cheque, or Color/Colour).


Nope - as already mentioned, two separate things. But by examples:

Loose (to rhyme with "noose" or "moose") - "this model's base wobbles - it must be loose"

Lose (say "looz") - "I win, ergo you lose"

[Robdaddy73]

Yeah I am pretty sure that only the enemy within range of the blast tep at the time of contact would be effected. I have been hit with those things and that is the way we alway understood the rule to be.