Need help with Gunslinger

[Blood Angel]

Ok, How are you supposed to know if a model can take gunslinger? It does not say anywhere on the profile. I know everyone is saying that Blood Angels Sergeants get it, but all it says is that the Sgt can take items from the mele weapons and/or the ranged weapons lists.

If that is all it is, then Generic Marines get it too, because it says the identical thing for Vanilla Marines Tac Squad Sergeants.

I would like some clarification if anyone could. And it would be much easier to understand if they just put in the word Gunslinger as one of the rules that apply to the individual unit.

Thanks.

[Wolfshade]

Gunslinger

All models with two Pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase. This follows the normal rules for Shooting

All models that have two pistols can use the gunslinger rule.

So if you upgrade a Sgt to take a bolt pistol and say plasma pistol (replacing his chainsaw) then he can use it. Generic marines cannot have it as they have no option to upgrade to take a 2nd pistol.

[Blood Angel]

All models that have two pistols can use the gunslinger rule.

So if you upgrade a Sgt to take a bolt pistol and say plasma pistol (replacing his chainsaw) then he can use it. Generic marines cannot have it as they have no option to upgrade to take a 2nd pistol.

Ahh, ok, Makes sense. But I see no where on the Assault squad Sergeant in the new BA codex where it indicates that he can take 2 pistols. It doesn't even say what the SGT comes with. I'm just assuming the normal default of chainsword/bolt pistol because it only has a list of wargear off to the sides that looks like all of them come equipped the same. Then it says two space marines can upgrade their bolt pistol with the one of the following, and the SGT section has the same thing saying Sgt/Vet Sgt may take items from the mele weapons and/or Ranged weapons list. Nowhere saying anything about the SGT having two pistols or being able to replace his chainsword with a pistol.

What am I missing?

[Blood Angel]

Ok, wait, I see it here when you look at the ranged weapons list. In the BA codex (Mine is ipad version) the ranged weapon list says may replace mele and/or ranged weapon with. And it is specific what the vanilla marine can take for replacements for the pistol and the mele can only replace mele. Got it.

On a side note, anyone got suggestions? I'm making extra SGTS so I can swap them out as needed, so what would be the consensus on what to take. I want to dual pistol, so, Melta/Melta? Melta/Flamer or flamer/flamer and why? I already have P fist Sgts and chainsword/Plasma pistol Sgts as well.

[Wolfshade]

So the wargear of all members of the Assault Squad are:

Bolt Pistol & Chainsword (Frag & Krak, Power Armour and Jump Packs).

So the Sgt being a member of the squad is initially equipped with that wargear.

Then under options it says:


The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists

Then you can then buy upgrades for the Sgt from Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons.

If you buy a Range Weapon upgrade such as a Plasma Pistol, then the Sgt has two pistols. The initial Bolt Pistol and the new paid for Plasma Pistol

[Blood Angel]

Ok, yep. I get it. Mainly because of the wording in the Ranged Weapon List, which states that a model may replace his ranged (bolt pistol) and/or his Mele weapon (Chainsword) for items on the list which are all ranged weapons. If not for that line, it would not work. I get it. Typical GW rules where you have to look in 3 or 4 different places in order to figure out all the rules for a squad. They should have just said "Sgt has Gunslinger special rule", but that would just be too easy ;)

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Anyway, any suggestions of which pistols to take? It appears that you can take the same weapon twice here, so Melta/Melta? Melta/Plasma Melta/Flamer? or or any combo?
I don't see that you would necessarily want to take a ranged weapon off the list and keep the bolt pistol, but It may make a difference in some obscure rule, for example, Space wolves thunder wolf guys can use any weapon that counts as mele in attack as rending, so the Bolt pistol counts as a mele attack and therefore is rending, but special weapons don't, so a plasma pistol will not count as rending. Weird rule, but you know how they are. Hopefully there is nothing here for BA that would preclude you using the ranged weapons as a mele weapon in CC, to pistol whip like the bolt pistol can.

[Houghten]

Except then you would have gone "eh? But he only has one pistol!"

Besides, the way Gunslinger is worded, every model has it, but only the ones with two pistols can actually use it.

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for example, Space wolves thunder wolf guys can use any weapon that counts as mele in attack as rending, so the Bolt pistol counts as a mele attack and therefore is rending, but special weapons don't, so a plasma pistol will not count as rending. Weird rule, but you know how they are.

Uh. In melee, both pistols count as a basic melee weapon; both would get the same bonuses or penalties.
On top of that, the Thunderwolf mount specifies that all close combat attacks made by the model have Rending. Not all basic attacks, all of them. Rending lightning claws, rending thunder hammers, rending frost blades, whatever. All Rending.

[Blood Angel]

Except then you would have gone "eh? But he only has one pistol!"

Besides, the way Gunslinger is worded, every model has it, but only the ones with two pistols can actually use it.

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Uh. In melee, both pistols count as a basic melee weapon; both would get the same bonuses or penalties.
On top of that, the Thunderwolf mount specifies that all close combat attacks made by the model have Rending. Not all basic attacks, all of them. Rending lightning claws, rending thunder hammers, rending frost blades, whatever. All Rending.

Huh, Well, I didn't realize that. I had a rules lawyer pick that apart for me once. I will have to revisit that. T-wolves are so expensive that adding weapons to replace the bolt pistol doesn't seem to be worth it anyway, I was just making a point about how obscure rules can nerf an otherwise good idea, or at least what you thought was a good idea.

Sooo, anyway, anyone? Bueler? No one wants to pipe in on the pistols to take and why? I like the idea of a twin melta and since two regular assault marines appear to be able to both take melta guns, It seems like you could get a decent drop pod squad that can do damage but also wreak havoc with Vehicles or MC's or possibly any other multi wound tough critter. I also like having a squad or two with flamers to clear a path and deal with back line annoyances, like devestators, and the Melta/Melta/Infernus/Infernus to deal with artillery and long range, things like Predators and such.

I really wish they had left Assault as troops. Or at least maybe compromised, and make them troops when they remove the jump packs and FA when they have their jump packs on.

[Wolfshade]

I'm not sure you have to look in 3 or 4 places.

There is no point in listing every unit in every codex as having the rule "gunslinger" when they can just put it in one place. It is almost like ATSKNF being listed in every SM entry.

It also makes sense in my mind that all characters have access to the same basic armoury so rather than re-writting in every unit entry what a character can take, just reference it to a list. It certainly then makes it easier to to change things going forward. So if GW decided to increase the cost of a plasma pistol by 1pt, then your faq would update the range weapon list rather than updating every unit entry.

You need the and/or because you don't need to replace melee with melee or range with range, you could swap both pistol and chainsword for a pair of lightening claws or swap the melee for a pistol to activate gunslinger.

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In terms of load-out it all depends on what role you have for the list and what other weapons you have on them and whom you are going to face. There isn't much point taking inferno pistols if you aren't going to be facing armour.

[Houghten]

Sooo, anyway, anyone? Bueler? No one wants to pipe in on the pistols to take and why?

I had to go and look up the points costs first.

Hand flamers are the only one I think I'd want to double up on unless I had points over and nowhere else to spend them. Melta pistols are both more expensive and shorter-ranged than meltaguns; twin plasma is a solid "maybe" but I'm not sure it's worth the added power over bolt/plasma.

[Storm96]

I think it really does depend very highly on who you're going to be facing. The flame template is just a hair over 8 inches so really its not a huge range difference. Also remember the removal of models and the random charge distance. Do you want to cover more models and have your needed charge range increased because he takes too many away from that front line? Or did u get close enough that his casualties shouldn't matter and you will almost guarantee getting the charge range? Either way you want to take the weapon range question as far out of the equation as you can.

Which brings us right back to Wolfshade's comment. Worry about who you are trying to kill rather than how far away from your assault unit they will be.

Sadly now this brings us into my most hated rule in 40k. Overwatch. I cant stand it and in my opinion its what killed assault in the current rules. No I don't play an assault army. Yes its just my opinion and no I don't care to start a discussion about it here. But its something else to consider as well. If you're good enough that you can for the most part be the assaulter rather than the assaultee (I don't care if those aren't real words, I like them) then choose based on what your targets are going to be. Again though this kind of plays back into the whole knowing who you're facing and what the units objectives are.

In the end, of this rather long post that was supposed to be short, I would say if you're building for all comers don't double up. If you have a certain meta in your play group then tailor it to that. Either way magnets are your friends.

[Houghten]

Which brings us right back to Wolfshade's comment. Worry about who you are trying to kill rather than how far away from your assault unit they will be.

I don't see why I can't worry about both.

Meltas are for hunting two things: vehicles, and meganobz. Against the meganobz you might be glad of the extra shots, but it's a lot of points to spend on a counter for a unit that your opponent might not even take in an army he probably won't, on top of which that ork army is going to have a lot of bodies in it that aren't the meganobz; I'd definitely rather have the flamers. Against vehicles, the two meltaguns the squad can carry anyway will pop most things with contemptuous ease, and they'll do it sooner because of their doubled range, and they'll do it for ten points cheaper, and if one of the models carrying them gets killed you've still got the other one.