Grey Knights Wish List.

[imperialsavant]

;) G'day All!
With lots of rumours around about the possable release of a new Codex for the GKs what would you like to see changed in view of many of the old rules no longer applicable due to the recent Daemons Codex?

To start the discussion how about these ideas.

(1) Reduce points to 20 points with same stats for Basic GKs & + 15 pts for the Justicar
(2) Add Meltas, Multi-Meltas & Missile launchers to Weapon options & allow 4 weapons in a squad of 10
(3) Reduce points for Terminator Brother Captain to plus 10 pts and allow option for squad to take Assault Cannon & bring other Termie rules as per SM Codex.
(4) Bring Storm Shield rules into line with Space Marine Rules.

Another option would be to leave the Basic GKs points the same but give them 2 wounds or maybe 2 attacks.
You could give them +1 Initative & + 1 L/ship if facing Daemons.

If going along this path Termies could be 50 pts each with 2 wounds & the same options if facing Daemons.

How about a special rule to allow them to teleport to within 18 inches of summoned Daemons in the Turn the Daemons appear on the table regardless of Turn number. (very Fluffy!)

Naturally any vehicles should be at the costs in SM Codex & they should have Access to Standard Landraiders, Crusaders & Redeemers & how about a special Predator with a Flamestorm Cannon that has the stats of the new IG Hellhound weapon & wounds daemons on a 3+.

Lets have your thoughts & ideas!

[Duke]

I would love to see them have plastic models... And some kind of reasonable transport options. Heavy support wouldn't be bad either, lol. But mostly I want plastic

Duke

[Madness]

Go back to one unit type only. ;)

Jk, I wish they would complement them with reasonably weaker units from outside the chapter, so the GK could worry about being high and mighty while their puny allies eat the dirt in their place.

[Marid]

1) 20 points is too cheap. Lower the price of special weapons a bit.
3) I would be happy with just a one point drop in the BC to 60.
4) Agree there.

A teleport ability would be great. I don't want a bunch of SM vehicles. Grey Knights, if anything, should be less like SMs.

[DarkLink]

I would like:

1. A (comparatively) cheap, 2 wound HQ with some unique rules (not a Librarian, not a Chaplain, but a mix of both, with some special stuff thrown in).

2. Armywide Deepstrike. And Frag grenades. Built in. To everyone. We're the Grey M#@$#$F%*$*&% Knights. Just give us a special rule, like a gestalt psychic power or something. GW, you don't have any excuses.

3. The Teleport attack squad should have the Gate of Infinity psychic power and Heroic Intervention. Because that would be awesome.

4. Dreadnought upgrade. Our equipment is superior, I want to have an awesome, unique Dread varient that makes others tremble in fear.

5. Grey Knights on bikes are just Grey Marines. Grey Knights on jetbikes, though...

6. Crazy elite squads. Imagine how awesome a veteran Grey Knight would be, compared to other SM chapters.

7. Anti-tank options. Anyone ever heard of Daemon-engines? Yeah, we need to be able to kill those, too.

8. Psychic powers. Lots of psychic powers. Like, a ton of psychic powers. Every single Grey Knight is a psyker. Every Terminator is a Librarian level psyker. Now, for balance purposes we can't just give everyone psychic powers, but we'd better be better psykers than Space Wolves and Tyranids. Combined.

9. The ability to take a ridiculously powerful Grand Master. As in, Marnius Calgar powerful. Except with psychic powers on top of that. A base Grand master should be comparable to the current GM (145pts), but with options that boost his power up to well over 9000.

10. Low model count. I want to run 20-Knight armies in 1000+pt games. We are the ultimate B@d@$$es of the 40k universe. We'd better not be outnumbered, except in extreme cases.

11. Worth our points. Our current 'dex has got point 10 down pretty well. We just don't have good enough rules or enough options to be worth our high point cost.

12. The ability to understand why Madness claims to like the Grey Knights:p, yet wants to remove them from the game, just because he thinks that Grey Knights will become "popular", "hip" or "cool". Because that would somehow cheapen our Bad@$$itude. Or something. I'm not entirely sure.



(1) Reduce points to 20 points with same stats for Basic GKs & + 15 pts for the Justicar
(2) Add Meltas, Multi-Meltas & Missile launchers to Weapon options & allow 4 weapons in a squad of 10
(3) Reduce points for Terminator Brother Captain to plus 10 pts and allow option for squad to take Assault Cannon & bring other Termie rules as per SM Codex.
(4) Bring Storm Shield rules into line with Space Marine Rules.

1. Nah, we just need to have out special rules re-written, and model/upgrade costs revised. We deserve to have 25pt basic troops, but we also deserve to have troops that are worth 25pts. On a side note, I'd say we're currently worth about 21, maybe 22 pts for a basic Grey Knight.

2. We're frickin' Grey Knights. We don't need meltas, we need psy-meltas:D. Seriously, though, we have access to all sorts of unique equipment. I'd like something similar to meltas and the like, but more Grey Knight-y.

3. Assault Cannons? We're Grey Knights. We've got psycannons. More unique special weapons, yeah. Assault cannons, nah.
Now, I'd like to see terminators rounded off to 45 and 60pts, simply so the numbers work out better, but with the new codex format a GKT squad would be 150pts for a Brother Captain and 2 Termies, plus extra models and upgrades.

4. Obviously, along with all other wargear and such. Do you expect them not to do this?



Another option would be to leave the Basic GKs points the same but give them 2 wounds or maybe 2 attacks.
You could give them +1 Initative & + 1 L/ship if facing Daemons.

If going along this path Termies could be 50 pts each with 2 wounds & the same options if facing Daemons.


Avoid major Daemon-specific rules. We're so powerful because we're, well, powerful, not because we're ONLY good against Daemons. We can slaughter anyone else just as easily.

Having major, core rules like +1 I against all Chaos isn't balanced. Either Grey Knights are unbeatable against chaos, but average against everyone else, or we're average against Daemons and weak against everyone else. Or the rules get screwed up and we're bad against almost everyone (our current predicament).

Making an army who's rules are built around being only good against a single army will never be balanced. And we don't have to have a fluff conflict, either. We have abilities that are really good against Daemons, but they work against everyone else, as well.

Some things, like ignoring invulnerable saves, are primarially only useful against Daemons. This can stay. But we don't need to have crazy armywide rules that grant us +1 to all our stats, but only when facing Daemons. The former is reasonable, fluffy and balanced. The second is fluffy, but horribly unbalanced.

[DarkLink]

A teleport ability would be great. I don't want a bunch of SM vehicles. Grey Knights, if anything, should be less like SMs.

+1

We're Grey Knights, not Grey Marines. We have so much to set us apart, we don't need to share anything in common with normal Space Marines. Just slapping a bunch of meltaguns in our squads would be lazy. Giving us unique special weapons that behave similarly, but are much fluffier... that's the way to go.

[Madness]

DarkLink, check the PMs.

[plasticaddict]

I really like the idea of a Teleport Attack squad with Infinity gate, how about making it similar to Warp Spiders? You still move quickly around the table but there is a pretty signifigant risk.

We need more dedicated anti armor. Purgation squad with, not lascannons, but a focused psychic blast weapon think Psycannon on steroids. Same option for a Dreadnought Weapon, a super Psycannon.

Deadnought Psycannon either make it shoot more than a troop carried weapon or make it more powerful/better AP.

Twin linked psycannons for Land Raiders.

Give us Furious Charge/Prefered Enemy when opposed by Daemons. We want to banish them and any who would side with them.

Shrouding, either go away or make it a Ld test to see us, Psykers get to reroll if they/unit fail. Make the game flow smoother.

PLASTIC MODELS! Please just so I can get some different poses to scatter around my army. Please.

Drop the points cost on BCs and GMs, they are to expensive for what they can do.

Upgrade Inq Stormtroopers to be inline w/IG Codex, with some special Ordo specific wargear options.

If you take and Inq Lord you must take two units of Inq Troops, then you can fill in with GK.

Chaplin. With Psychic powers???

I agree that the army should be small and the models expensive (points wise) because the are Bad MFs, right now we have small and expensive. While they are bad they aren't that bad and need a little beefing up to make them worth their points.

[fuzzbuket]

I'd hate this


(1) Reduce points to 20 points with same stats for Basic GKs & + 15 pts for the Justicar
(2) Add Meltas, Multi-Meltas & Missile launchers to Weapon options & allow 4 weapons in a squad of 10
(3) Reduce points for Terminator Brother Captain to plus 10 pts and allow option for squad to take Assault Cannon & bring other Termie rules as per SM Codex.

and love

GK are a scapel and are eqquipped with the finest armour and weapons, give the psycannons heavy shot (2 fire modes) S10 R 18 or let the purge squads get MM (a 5-man ta squad with meltabombs and 2 psycannons can shread light armour!) dont give them weapons for the lowly guard! the psycannon is a HB/ plasmagun!
the only thing I could suggest is to up th points and make them better also a custodian squad could be cool and fix the allies rules :
250pts gkfor every 500 pts
and include an exrosict charecter and make the armies tiny (e.g. GK tactical = 50pts but really strong!) and some more fancy weapons + varients

everythin telepors/ thunderhawk/ tarantulus

e.g. fuzz's GK list of things that should be in dex

HQ
inq lord
inq
GM
captin
custodian
(charecters)

elliets

Dread
assasins (imperial/tempal more tempals)
daemon host
Terminators (wiht options for diffrent force weapons)
inq followers (retinues without an =][=)

troops

GK
IST's
gK scouts:p

FAST

landspeeder
JUmp GK
valk
vendetta
hellhound (flames= =][=

Heavy

orbital strikes
knight titan
HUGE daemonhosttank thingy!
purge squad
LR (all variants+ FW variant)
=][= artillery (with psy shells)

transport

razorback with psycannons
tarantulus
rhino
LR
deepstike teleport
droppod (with psy cannons/immortilators)
chimera


sorry for ranting!

[Melissia]

My main wishlist for the Grey Knights is that they aren't in the same codex as my Sisters.

Aside from that? They need their rules reworked so that they're good against most armies and great against daemons, and always, ALWAYS worth their points.

[DarkLink]

DarkLink, check the PMs.

Yep, got that. Hmm, we need a thumbs-up smilie.


I really like the idea of a Teleport Attack squad with Infinity gate, how about making it similar to Warp Spiders? You still move quickly around the table but there is a pretty signifigant risk.

We need more dedicated anti armor. Purgation squad with, not lascannons, but a focused psychic blast weapon think Psycannon on steroids. Same option for a Dreadnought Weapon, a super Psycannon.

Deadnought Psycannon either make it shoot more than a troop carried weapon or make it more powerful/better AP.

Twin linked psycannons for Land Raiders.

Fully agree. Though LR Crusaders could use the upgraded uber-psycannon (to reflect the use of an assault cannon rather than a heavy bolter).



Give us Furious Charge/Prefered Enemy when opposed by Daemons. We want to banish them and any who would side with them.

Shrouding, either go away or make it a Ld test to see us, Psykers get to reroll if they/unit fail. Make the game flow smoother.

Not too sure about FC/PE against only daemons, as it would be a pretty significant impact on the balance of the game between Daemon and non-Daemon armies. I'd prefer multiple, subtle abilities that are useful, but don't unbalance the game when switching between fighting Daemon and non-Daemon armies.
I'd also add that it shouldn't necessarily be Daemon armies, but rather Chaos armies.

However, here's what to do with Shrouding: Any Grey Knight who receives and unsaved wound from enemy shooting attacks may ignore that wound on a 5+, due to the confounding effects of the shrouding.

It's simple, straightforward, and effective.



PLASTIC MODELS! Please just so I can get some different poses to scatter around my army. Please.

Drop the points cost on BCs and GMs, they are to expensive for what they can do.

Chaplin. With Psychic powers???


Actually, GM's are cheaper than what you'd get from a normal SM Captain at 145pts, aside from the lack of WS 6. Plastic models would be quite nice, though.


My main wishlist for the Grey Knights is that they aren't in the same codex as my Sisters.

Aside from that? They need their rules reworked so that they're good against most armies and great against daemons, and always, ALWAYS worth their points.

Fully agreed.

[Coyote]

What I want

GM---> Eternal Warrior
I don't want IST's brought in line w/ IG storm troopers... Keep em cheap
Here's a crazy thought Rough Riders = troops (oooohh the modeling possibilities of inquisitorial rough riders!)

Dreads availble as HQ's
GK landraider and Valk variant (maybe Vendetta w/Psycan's instead of LC's)

Shrouding also works as frag grenades in addition to any shooting restrictions it may incur

Drop the price of justicars so they cost less than termies

Special rule increasing the accuracy of teleport/deepstrike (GK psychic network = for every GK unit on the board subtract one inch from the scatter)

What do you guys think about keeping Fearless?

[Drew da Destroya]

A Knight Titan would be cool, but would fit in better with a Mechanicus Army.

I'd love to see the fluff section of a redone DH book... if they expand on any of the hints given in the Horus Heresy series. Maybe a mention of Garro, or Qruze, would be cool.

[DarkLink]

GM---> Eternal Warrior

The option should be available, at the very least.

Personally, I'd like the GM to have a baseline stat similar to current (~150pts, 3 wounds, WS 6), then buy upgrades like this, as well as buying special powers. I don't want to be forced to spend 100 extra points for, say, Eternal Warrior and the ability to pick and use 3 psychic powers per turn, but I want to have those options available to use.

Edit: a system like the SW Sagas would be quite welcome.



Dreads availble as HQ's
GK landraider and Valk variant (maybe Vendetta w/Psycan's instead of LC's)

Well, GK Dreads may be rare, but it would make sense that the only GK's willing to become Dreadnoughts would be those with such valuable skills and intense drive that they would be leaders, such as a Grand Master...



Shrouding also works as frag grenades in addition to any shooting restrictions it may incur

Yeah, frag grenades can be added in to any one of a number of the Grey Knight rules, particularly either Shrouding or Rites of Exorcism. I personally like the idea of Rites simply giving offensive/defensive grenades, or at least offensive grenades.



Drop the price of justicars so they cost less than termies

Yeah, that is kinda a peculiarity. However, typically a squad leader for Marines is +10pts, and a power weapon +15, so... And a Justicar has a second close combat weapon, while GK Terminators don't.



Special rule increasing the accuracy of teleport/deepstrike (GK psychic network = for every GK unit on the board subtract one inch from the scatter)

More commonly, what I've seen people mention for this is counting each GK squad as being equipped with a Teleport Homer, as they can lock on to each other's psychic signatures.



What do you guys think about keeping Fearless?

Absolutely and unquestionable. No Grey Knight has ever faltered in battle in 10000 years. If there's anything in all of 40k that deserves Fearless, it's the Grey Knights.

[Jokubas]

Well, GK Dreads may be rare, but it would make sense that the only GK's willing to become Dreadnoughts would be those with such valuable skills and intense drive that they would be leaders, such as a Grand Master...
That's always the story I've imagined for mine.

[Coyote]

I agree w/ you in terms of GK's unfaltering nature, but fearless has a different meaning than it did in 3rd ed(IMHO) when the DH codex was published. To me Fearless still means "I'm not scared", but it also seems to be synonomous with "I'm not smart enough to know when I'm losing" To me this is unrepresentative of an individual who has devoted their life to the way of the warrior.

Maybe the GK's would be better suited with ATSKNF... or give them all the Iron Will ability like the Inq Lord has now?

[DarkLink]

I agree w/ you in terms of GK's unfaltering nature, but fearless has a different meaning than it did in 3rd ed(IMHO) when the DH codex was published. To me Fearless still means "I'm not scared", but it also seems to be synonomous with "I'm not smart enough to know when I'm losing" To me this is unrepresentative of an individual who has devoted their life to the way of the warrior.

Maybe the GK's would be better suited with ATSKNF... or give them all the Iron Will ability like the Inq Lord has now?

Iron Will or another, better ATSKNF would, to me, be the only acceptable alternatives to Fearless. I do like the Iron Will idea, actually. It has all the advantages of fearless, and a few extra uses that are potentially useful.

[Tchezz]

My wish list:
-GK 2w hero,
-Inq worth his salt in CC,
-retinue include crusader, surgeon and mancatcher(make CC Inq+retinue a valid choice),
-if GKT deepskrike, they could run the turn they arrived,
-FAGK may run or assault the turn they arrived, and count as scoring,
-shrouding give "frag" for the purpose of charging,
-GM has eternal warior rule,
-GM and BC still doesn't count as is if in retinue,
-Force weapon ignore eternal warrior rule agaist deamon,
-deamon hammer strike in I order against any foe,
-SS are 3+inv,
Tchezz.

[Madness]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/icons/icon14.gif

[DarkLink]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/icons/icon14.gif

Lol, that works

[Rapture]

I dislike the idea of Grey Knights being better against demons. Sure it fits fluff but this isnt a book it is a game. If they choose to give them better stats against demons they will either be too good against demons or not good enough against everyone else.

I wouldn't want to play Grey Knights if I had demons.

[Force21]

I dislike the idea of Grey Knights being better against demons. Sure it fits fluff but this isnt a book it is a game. If they choose to give them better stats against demons they will either be too good against demons or not good enough against everyone else.

I wouldn't want to play Grey Knights if I had demons.


If they weren't better a against demons...then they are Grey Marines lol.


anyway wish list...


Grand Master Stern!!!

like Marneus Calgar..... but awesomer lol. :D


Knights for less points...not too cheap tho...


& Nemesis force weapon have rending.

*Edit*
lol & can assault after Deep strike.

[DarkLink]

Actually, from a rules perspective not only do I think that Grey Knights shouldn't get tons of special rules that only works on Daemons, but that they can't, and still be a quality, balanced codex.

Let me put it this way: we're awesome against Daemons. That doesn't mean we're not awesome against everyone else.

We should have little things against Daemons, like ignoring invulnerable saves and the like. But just because our opponent isn't Daemons doesn't mean we stop being the most hardcore, uber-powered b@d@$$es this side of the Adeptus Custodes.

[Coyote]

GK rules should need more rules that work well against daemons (ignore invulnerable. anti psycher, etc) but also work well against other armies. In this way they stay true to their fluff but can alos be balanced. This really isn't different from any other army. For instance IG use lots of manpower and guns. This doesn't mean they steal lance weaponry from the Eldar. I hope that makes sense?

I want the GK's to be just as killy, but a lil harder to kill. I'd also like to see extensive use of teleportation. I think someone mentioned warp spider generators. This would be sweet, unique, and fit the fluff of their access to unique equipment only available from the forge on Mars.
Keep the points just as high to keep the feel of an elite/thinly spread fighting force.


Most of all, I just want a new codex!

[ChaosPhoenix]

Although I find the codex updating & rewriting squad of Bolter & Chainsword a little creepy, I really like one rule. Grey Knights loose shrouding, but they can only be assaulted as if moving through difficult terrain.

As for the wishlist, I agree with most of the wishes here. I think the stats of the Inq's can stay as they are. But they should be improved by wargear. So you can built your cheap "rookie" inquisitor or a 300 years old gnarled fist of righteous fury.
Depending on his new and improved henchmen ;) he could give armywide special rules or general improvements.

[Madness]

Yup, because a psycannon that's just as effective against daemons(things made of warp) as it is against culexus assassins (things sucking warp) or tau (things that are not present in warp) or pariahs (etc...) makes a lot of sense.

[Melissia]

With the exception of the Culexis Assassin, it does. Having little presence in the warp does not make one immune ot psychic powers in 40k.

And the way I see it, Psycannons are like autocannons and etc that use psychically enhanced ammunition.

[Madness]

It's stated they are bolt/based, and I'm not saying a pariah should emerge unscathed, I'm saying that it shouldn't be AS EFFECTIVE.

[Melissia]

... which is roughly what I said. Only a Blank / Pariah / Whatever label of the week you want to give them would have any resistance to psycannon bolts compared to others.

[Madness]

Yes, but there's effective, there's ineffective and there's super-effective.

[Drew da Destroya]

Yes, but there's effective, there's ineffective and there's super-effective.

What, are we playing Pokemon now?

[DarkLink]

Yes, but there's effective, there's ineffective and there's super-effective.

I don't really think the stat system in 40k is fine enough to really differentiate between relatively minor differences in power. Plus, the "psychically charged" part is what makes psycannons ignore invulnerable saves, which is great against Daemons (and Eldar), but meh against everyone else. Makes sense to me/shrug/.

[Madness]

In more detailed games it works as a force weapon in bullet form, and force weapons tend to slice through daemons like hot metal through butter. So a shot of psycannon towards a daemon should have different effects than a shot of psycannon directed at an IC with a refractor field. It's a specialistic unit, making it work the same way against everything is pretty much the opposite of specialistic.

All Daemonhosts, Greater Daemons and Daemon Packs, Daemon Beasts, Nurglings, Daemonically Possessed Vehicles (such as Defilers) or those with the Parasitic Possession, Living Vehicle, or Mutated Hull upgrades, Eldar Avatars. Possessed
Chaos Space Marines. and Chaos Lords with the Daemonic Stature gift and/or over 50 points of daemonic gifts, THESE are the targets it should be effective against. Every other target should feel the hit of say a plasma gun equivalent.

[Force21]

In more detailed games it works as a force weapon in bullet form, and force weapons tend to slice through daemons like hot metal through butter. So a shot of psycannon towards a daemon should have different effects than a shot of psycannon directed at an IC with a refractor field. It's a specialistic unit, making it work the same way against everything is pretty much the opposite of specialistic.

All Daemonhosts, Greater Daemons and Daemon Packs, Daemon Beasts, Nurglings, Daemonically Possessed Vehicles (such as Defilers) or those with the Parasitic Possession, Living Vehicle, or Mutated Hull upgrades, Eldar Avatars. Possessed
Chaos Space Marines. and Chaos Lords with the Daemonic Stature gift and/or over 50 points of daemonic gifts, THESE are the targets it should be effective against. Every other target should feel the hit of say a plasma gun equivalent.


lol.

How about.... just all Chaos units & Demon units. (including Defilers, Demonic Possession, Etc.)


Every other target should feel the hit of say a plasma gun equivalent.

Plasma gun? Ouch lol.

I think the profile it has now is good for it.


*Edit*

btw no love for Stern?

[Madness]

Eldar avatars are effectively daemons, and I didn't create the list, GW did. The plasma gun is still quite a punch, and it would make sense that a rosarium power field was unaffected by it in the same way a daemonic aura is.

[DarkLink]

btw no love for Stern?

Come to think of it, we haven't talked special characters at all.

[Force21]

Come to think of it, we haven't talked special characters at all.


All I can think of is Stern, Alaric & Dvorn(?)


hmmm can't... for some reason think of any others right now...

[DarkLink]

All I can think of is Stern, Alaric & Dvorn(?)


hmmm can't... for some reason think of any others right now...

Mandelius, or however you spell his name. But, yeah, there aren't very many named Grey Knights. It's 'cause of the current lack of fluff. There's a lot of stuff to be filled in by a new codex (though there's plenty of room to do so).

[Force21]

Mandelius, or however you spell his name. But, yeah, there aren't very many named Grey Knights. It's 'cause of the current lack of fluff. There's a lot of stuff to be filled in by a new codex (though there's plenty of room to do so).


Hmmm yeah but I thought he died & his sword was used by Alaric in the book Grey Knights....

[DarkLink]

Yeah, he died quite some time ago. Though some special characters are technically dead (Tycho of the Blood Angels).

[Melissia]

Along with Celestine the Living Saint and Lord Karamazov of C:WH, which is to say there is no C:WH special character whom is still actually alive.

A special character should be awesome. It need not matter that they are dead or alive in "current" canon. All that matters is that they are awesome.

[Sir Biscuit]

It's important to remember that in 40k, "dead" is just a term we use for "currently missing".