Adeptus Mechanicus Rumor Roundup

[Bigred]

via Gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/SEo-0ER2L3s/new-warhammer-40k-faction.html) anonymous source 12-29-2014


I have a little information for you on a new 40k Faction. Ive seen artwork of two soldiers in heavy but clunky grey body armour and helm, with one wielding an odd looking plasma pistol of sorts. The most striking thing about the image, with smoke and laser fire in the background, is the draping of the red cloth beneath the shoulder plating, and a symbol of the Adeptus Mechanicus on the main figures chest. All I will add right now is the book is 85pgs with datasheets and formations.

via Gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/_MvaiIykOyk/new-faction-information-skitarii.html) anonymous source 12-30-2014

The new faction is in fact Ad Mech, Skitarii. As far as I know this is still a ways out, but who knows. There is only troops and elites, with vehicles. Mostly foot soldiers, guys with spider legs, and a couple tank/spider hybrids.

There is also a Dragoon which looks to be a dual kit with a rider on top of a bipedal machine. It has legs similar to the IG sentinels, but has a grafted human in the center of the machine. I am not as fluent in the background with the skitarii as I would like to comment much more.

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/PKGXZnFIlwU/arc-guns-for-adeptus-mechanicus.html) anonymous source 1-1-2014

the plasma pistol described in your previous article is not an odd looking plasma pistol. its an arc pistol. arc weapons will be available for the skitarii in both pistol and rifle. the arc rifle is rapid fire with haywire. rifle and pistol both are s6 ap5.

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/rFbIbKwseBc/skitarii-heavy-walker.html) anonymous source 1-3-2014

a heavy choice walker called a Onager Dunewalker will be part of the skitarii. they are an armor 12 walker that comes with overlapping forcefields that give an invulnerable save. each additional walker in the squad increases the save by 1. they come with a conversion beamer type weapon that is more powerful up close and disperses to a large but weaker blast at longer range. squadrons up to 3.

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/Gw7uRZdPuHI/skitarii-dunewalker-sighted.html) anonymous source 1-5-2015


Ive seen the model so I thought I would chime in and describe the Dunecrawler. Sorry no pictures, it was not possible.

Its a walker with 4 armoured mechanical spider legs. The crew compartment is large metal box angled in the front. There is a small robotic arm in the front with tools and drills on the appendage. The visor for the drivers inside is a slit with optical lenses on the the left hand side of the opening. The Eradication Beamer is big, and looks like a giant conversion beamer, up top there is a gunner with a heavy stubber. I don't know the optional guns, but there are a couple. One that looks like a long barreled autocannon, but has some sort of array attached to it. None of the weapon options look like standard Imperial Weapons.

I also wanted to mention, that this is a Games Workshop release, not Forgeworld.

[Mr Mystery]

Interesting.

Also sort of fits the price drop on Tech Thralls.

[energongoodie]

Please be True! This would be awesome :)

[KhornishGameHen]

This would be a dream come true!

[Houghten]

I've been saving a chocolate hat for just such an occasion.

[SadisticMagician]

Sounds more like a picture of Solar Auxilia

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

It would explain why Forgeworld's avoided doing anything with Skitari.

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds more like a picture of Solar Auxilia

Very good point. 'strange looking plasma pistol' is likely just a Volkite Serpenta (check me out with my knowledges!).

But in case it isn't mistaken identity/wishful thinking/attention seeking porky pies.....

http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/255000/255167_4f74_1024x2000.jpg

[Erik Setzer]

Maybe I've gotten too cynical over the years, but I'm having a hard time believing both Harlequins and Adeptus Mechanicus joining 40K out of the blue. You're talking about two forces that people have been wanting for years, and all of a sudden we get two completely new armies thrown into the game? All while Sisters of Battles/Adepta Sororitas get completely ignored, and there's no plastic models for Inquisition yet?

Yeah, I know Knights were kind of out of the blue, but they were something practically everyone could use, and they knew even if they sold one or two to a bunch of gamers, it'd be a tidy profit. Now we're talking serious niches.

I'd love it if all these rumors are true, but it just feels like a bit much right now.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, they've just a had fairly frenzied year of releases. Once Necrons are out, all current armies apart from SoB will have been updated to the Hardback Codex.

Most got a new unit or three. Some did better, some not so much.

But what that does do is open up the next set of release windows wide, wide open. And you gotta film them with something. Why not start bringing back some of 'sub' armies? Stuff that has always been there in the background, but they never got around to really doing justice with an army (yes, SoB included). The pace of the release schedule allows for this. The small scale Codecies allow for this (look at the Tempestus Scions, though hopefully not Ltd Ed...). New book, two or three boxed sets which can make multiple units (something they've got very good at recently...) and boof, new faction ready to be allied to existing armies.

And then, over time, get the Nid treatment. No, not spoiled by a Codex with more options than anyone could be bothered with - but non-codex release related releases. Expand them over time. New/current model (depending on how you look at it, in a temporal sense) no longer requires that the whole scope of the army is produced in a flurry of a few months. If one really takes off (let's say Ad Mech, because they're Imperial, and Imperial = Popular to start with. Sorry Xenos, but them's the breaks) then more resources can be chucked their way, expanding it up to a full scale army in it's own right.

And that right there, if I'm right and they pull it off with nice models - that's a golden goose. Not only does it stand to attract older hobbyists back (even if it's just a model here and there to paint and convert - a sale remains a sale), but for those of us who already have standing armies, and might have tried them all (I have. 26 years of gaming...) are suddenly presented with something all new and spangly. Something we don't already have. Oh go on then Mr Website, I'll two of X, three of Y, and a cheeky Z.

Good business tactic is good. If the models are right (not one to fuss overly about the rules myself, to each their own though).

[Erik Setzer]

Well, one of my issues with this - and mind you, I like both and would likely try to get both - is that they are, realistically, just niche groups. Harlequins would have to change a lot to not be smallish "armies." Combine that with the lack of people who'd actually play them, and it doesn't add up to much in sales. AdMech has a better shot at sales because you can tack them onto any Imperial force, but it's still a questionable proposition. Production costs won't be that cheap, and when you're a company already barely maintaining a profit, you can't jump on risks like this when you can just churn out new stuff for existing armies and have it sell well. Just feels like they're not judging the market well.

Of course, these are all still just rumors, and rumors are often not what we expect them to be in the end.

[Mr Mystery]

Harlies will ally with the Imperium too. They're inscrutable, and will happily go where Craftworld won't, and Dark won't be welcome.

Doesn't have to represent 'fistbump' allies, just 'hey check it out. We're 'helping'. Yes, just 'helping'. Certainly no unpleasant repercussions to come. Not us. Oh no. Totes on the level'

[Bigred]

via Gary's anonymous source 12-30-2014

The new faction is in fact Ad Mech, Skitarii. As far as I know this is still a ways out, but who knows. There is only troops and elites, with vehicles. Mostly foot soldiers, guys with spider legs, and a couple tank/spider hybrids.

There is also a Dragoon which looks to be a dual kit with a rider on top of a bipedal machine. It has legs similar to the IG sentinels, but has a grafted human in the center of the machine. I am not as fluent in the background with the skitarii as I would like to comment much more.

[Erik Setzer]

Harlies will ally with the Imperium too. They're inscrutable, and will happily go where Craftworld won't, and Dark won't be welcome.

Doesn't have to represent 'fistbump' allies, just 'hey check it out. We're 'helping'. Yes, just 'helping'. Certainly no unpleasant repercussions to come. Not us. Oh no. Totes on the level'

Yeah, but a lot of gamers just want the Battle Brothers so they don't have to worry about the allies chart (and yes, I still play by it, because even with those "restrictions" it's still cheeky buggery to put Tau battlesuits alongside a Land Raider Crusader full of Death Company, something I *have* seen on the table).

I'm not anti-GW on this, I'd love for it to happen, I'm just not convinced by the rumors, especially as it doesn't seem like a good move financially.

Guess we'll see when it happens. If it's true, it's one more group of models I can tack on to my Rogue Trader army.

[YorkNecromancer]

dMech has a better shot at sales because you can tack them onto any Imperial force, but it's still a questionable proposition. Production costs won't be that cheap, and when you're a company already barely maintaining a profit, you can't jump on risks like this when you can just churn out new stuff for existing armies and have it sell well.

At this stage, are AdMech really a risk?

They're established via Forge World, they're different enough to Marines in rules and playstyle to justify as a new army, and they're visually different to everything else out there. They don't have the clean lines of the marines or the WW1 and 2 flat edges of the Militarum, nor are they all the exposed tendons and tentacles of chaos. They're kind of rivets and curves and far too many arms.

So, as an IP they're previously established - and as a 'luxury' army, which can't hurt - visually different, playstyle different, plus they ally with existing armies so the risk no-one will buy any is significantly mitigated.

And on a personal level, I've been waiting for an AdMech army since the Black Codex of Xmas '93. Twenty-two years is a long time to be waiting, but I've done it before. I never lost the faith in plastic Ogryns and then they came and they were everything I wanted.

If they are doing AdMech - and Jes Goodwin has repeatedly stated he wants to - I will be first in line to buy EVERYTHING.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

At this stage, are AdMech really a risk?

They're established via Forge World, they're different enough to Marines in rules and playstyle to justify as a new army, and they're visually different to everything else out there. They don't have the clean lines of the marines or the WW1 and 2 flat edges of the Militarum, nor are they all the exposed tendons and tentacles of chaos. They're kind of rivets and curves and far too many arms.

So, as an IP they're previously established - and as a 'luxury' army, which can't hurt - visually different, playstyle different, plus they ally with existing armies so the risk no-one will buy any is significantly mitigated.

And on a personal level, I've been waiting for an AdMech army since the Black Codex of Xmas '93. Twenty-two years is a long time to be waiting, but I've done it before. I never lost the faith in plastic Ogryns and then they came and they were everything I wanted.

If they are doing AdMech - and Jes Goodwin has repeatedly stated he wants to - I will be first in line to buy EVERYTHING.

Agreed with this 100% - If Jes can do what he did for the Dark Eldar they would surely be a hit.

[kellyj]

This would certainly fall in line with the new FW "Dred" just announced. It may well be a Thallax war engine.

[Mr Mystery]

No, no - that's definitely a Dreadnought.

And Forgeworld, on account it's from the FW Blog.

[Erik Setzer]

At this stage, are AdMech really a risk?

I would love AdMech too, but, in all honesty, they are something of a risk, depending on what they're doing with them. It's lot a lot of other things, where people will say they want something, and then they think because they and all their friends want something (even though a lot of their friends can't/won't buy it), they assume everyone wants the same. AdMech sounds great, and it has a reasonable chance of success because, again, it's Imperial and fits with all Imperial armies. But as a new army, it's a lot of up-front cost. That's the risk part. There's no actual guarantee on the investment. They might hedge their bets in other ways, though (such as producing limited numbers and pricing them higher), but that could also lead to lower sales than they otherwise would have gotten.

Really, there's always a risk in introducing something new to the market.

I'm cheering for it to be a real new army (though I'm starting to get skeptical of the rumor mongers who claim there's a clear photo floating around and yet no one's sharing it), and I'll gladly add them to my forces. I'm just also prepared for it to not actually happen. (If I don't get my hopes up, I can't be too disappointed, right?)

[Lucidum]

I have trouble keeping up with the who's who of rumormongering on here, is Gary's anonymous source usually reliable? Or is this way out of left field with no credibility whatsoever?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"We've seen the pictures" - sure. So why isn't anyone sharing them?

[DWest]

"We've seen the pictures" - sure. So why isn't anyone sharing them?
Because if the pictures in question aren't in wide circulation, sharing them makes it really easy to determine who the leaker is, and there goes your source of leaks, and the leaker's job. Please note I'm not claiming that we should automatically believe everything that comes along and claims it's a leak, that would be foolish in the extreme; however, asking somebody to throw away their job for something that half of the rabble will cry "fake/conversion/photoshop!" at anyway is not kosher either.

[Bigred]

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/PKGXZnFIlwU/arc-guns-for-adeptus-mechanicus.html) anonymous source 1-1-2014

the plasma pistol described in your previous article is not an odd looking plasma pistol. its an arc pistol. arc weapons will be available for the skitarii in both pistol and rifle. the arc rifle is rapid fire with haywire. rifle and pistol both are s6 ap5.

[Mr Mystery]

Those pencil drawings on the front page look kinda fun.

Still part of me wonders if this might be a hoax though.

[miteyheroes]

**** this would be cool...

[Bigred]

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/rFbIbKwseBc/skitarii-heavy-walker.html) anonymous source 1-3-2014

a heavy choice walker called a Onager Dunewalker will be part of the skitarii. they are an armor 12 walker that comes with overlapping forcefields that give an invulnerable save. each additional walker in the squad increases the save by 1. they come with a conversion beamer type weapon that is more powerful up close and disperses to a large but weaker blast at longer range. squadrons up to 3.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Starting to sound a bit ropey now.

[Deadlift]

Nah. Starting to sound a bit ropey now.

I was thinking the opposite, invulnerable save gets better the more walkers in unit. That sounds exactly like something GW would come up with to increase sales. 40k for me is getting tired and the addition of Harliquins and AdMech could be a good boost for the game. Especially in sales.

[Mr Mystery]

It's more the name. Onager is already used in the Tau book, and Dunewalker is just crap.

[Charon]

Would not wonder if it was true.
Because as we all know that there is only the Imperium and it has become not only the most numberous faction but also the technologically most advanced faction.

[thepolytheist]

Did anyone else notice the mention of an AdMech warband in the description of this month's Warhammer: Visions? Could just be talking about conversions and painting, but it could also be showing off the newest faction.

[DrMobius]

Did anyone else notice the mention of an AdMech warband in the description of this month's Warhammer: Visions? Could just be talking about conversions and painting, but it could also be showing off the newest faction.

If there's any pictures? Or just blurb?


" Mmmm Mentats!"

[Erik Setzer]

It's more the name. Onager is already used in the Tau book, and Dunewalker is just crap.

Well, look at the three "starter" boxes so far for 40K (6th+): Dark Vengeance, Stormclaw, Deathstorm. Then you see all the Space Marine flyers are "Storm[word]" or something like that, even the Space Wolves. And don't forget Murderfang aka Murderface McMurderpants who's armed with Murder Claws and has Murderlust. Or "Centurions" which makes no sense for the unit (a unit that always makes me think, "Yo dawg, I heard you liked armor, so I made some armor for your armor."). Oh, and Logan Grimnar is riding a hover-sled pulled by two wolves (who don't fly, making the hover part of it even more obnoxious than him having a sled already was).

So yeah, stupid sounding names and ridiculous ideas are flying fast these days, because saturating the market with new stuff for people to buy is more important than taking time to make sure it's not just silly.

[Path Walker]

If there's any pictures? Or just blurb?


" Mmmm Mentats!"

Its more of John Blache's inquisition stuff, nothing to do with a faction

[Jared van Kell]

Well, look at the three "starter" boxes so far for 40K (6th+): Dark Vengeance, Stormclaw, Deathstorm. Then you see all the Space Marine flyers are "Storm[word]" or something like that, even the Space Wolves. And don't forget Murderfang aka Murderface McMurderpants who's armed with Murder Claws and has Murderlust. Or "Centurions" which makes no sense for the unit (a unit that always makes me think, "Yo dawg, I heard you liked armor, so I made some armor for your armor."). Oh, and Logan Grimnar is riding a hover-sled pulled by two wolves (who don't fly, making the hover part of it even more obnoxious than him having a sled already was).

So yeah, stupid sounding names and ridiculous ideas are flying fast these days, because saturating the market with new stuff for people to buy is more important than taking time to make sure it's not just silly.

Welcome to the world of business and marketing. As long as there are people willing to buy dumb stuff, dumb stuff will keep getting made. Like it or loathe it, you will not be able to change this fact.

JvK :cool:

[Path Walker]

Also dumb is subjective and GW's target market is 11-14 year olds.

[Deadlift]

Also dumb is subjective and GW's target market is 11-14 year olds.

I just don't think that's the case (any more). I think GW targets people with money and 11-14 year olds don't generally have enough for this hobby unless they are spoilt.

[Path Walker]

I just don't think that's the case (any more). I think GW targets people with money and 11-14 year olds don't generally have enough for this hobby unless they are spoilt.

they do, sorry mate but thats who they are interested in targetting with their products, get them in for birthday/christmas money for a few years then on to the next generation, if they stick around till adulthood, thats a bonus.

By GWs own accounts they think a new recruit is worth more in the first 3 years of the hobby than the rest of their lives, after those 3 years, GW aren't bothered.

We're playing a game aimed at kids, embrace it.

Also, if you look at average pocket money rates in the UK compared to average costs per figure, the hobby is just as affordable for kids as ever.

[40kGamer]

Maybe I've gotten too cynical over the years, but I'm having a hard time believing both Harlequins and Adeptus Mechanicus joining 40K out of the blue. You're talking about two forces that people have been wanting for years, and all of a sudden we get two completely new armies thrown into the game? All while Sisters of Battles/Adepta Sororitas get completely ignored, and there's no plastic models for Inquisition yet?

Yeah, I know Knights were kind of out of the blue, but they were something practically everyone could use, and they knew even if they sold one or two to a bunch of gamers, it'd be a tidy profit. Now we're talking serious niches.

I'd love it if all these rumors are true, but it just feels like a bit much right now.

I see it as the inevitable result of rapid fire releases. When you only have 16 armies you can't just recycle the rules every 2 years there needs to be more. What I hope is they get more sales by delving into weird fan stuff so that they will keep exploring oddball things and not fall back into churning the same stuff over and over...

- - - Updated - - -


It's more the name. Onager is already used in the Tau book, and Dunewalker is just crap.

Dude... it's hard to out cheese Murder Mcmurder pants and his Murder claws of Murdering doom! And I'll never fully recover from Santa Logan... just wrong, so wrong.... :p

[Deadlift]

they do, sorry mate but thats who they are interested in targetting with their products, get them in for birthday/christmas money for a few years then on to the next generation, if they stick around till adulthood, thats a bonus.

By GWs own accounts they think a new recruit is worth more in the first 3 years of the hobby than the rest of their lives, after those 3 years, GW aren't bothered.

We're playing a game aimed at kids, embrace it.

Also, if you look at average pocket money rates in the UK compared to average costs per figure, the hobby is just as affordable for kids as ever.

You could be right, if GW are targeting your suggested age group then maybe that explains some of GWs drop in profit then. I know for damn sure who has the spending power and sorry matey it's not kids. It's folks on forums like this. These are the guys filling GWs coffers.

But to bring this back on topic. I'm pretty sure AdMech would be a huge hit. Both for GW and already for FW. I have everything crossed these rumours are realistic. I am sure the models will look gorgeous. Can't wait to see them. If someone had told me we would see GW release Necrons, Haliquins and AdMech in the space of half a year I would be laughing at them. But not anymore.

[Erik Setzer]

they do, sorry mate but thats who they are interested in targetting with their products, get them in for birthday/christmas money for a few years then on to the next generation, if they stick around till adulthood, thats a bonus.

By GWs own accounts they think a new recruit is worth more in the first 3 years of the hobby than the rest of their lives, after those 3 years, GW aren't bothered.

We're playing a game aimed at kids, embrace it.

Also, if you look at average pocket money rates in the UK compared to average costs per figure, the hobby is just as affordable for kids as ever.


It *was* aimed at kids in the past, but that was also back when they proudly stated they made games and the models existed to support the games, not the other way around. Now they claim the models are "collector products" (ha!), and they're pricing them way too high. The entry price to get into the hobby is too high for most parents to accept it. I've only seen maybe two new players who are in the 11-14 group, and only a couple others who were under 18 (both were 17 and have recently turned 18; one had a job, the other had parents who had money but is getting a job himself now that he's 18). Other parents come in, see the prices, and balk. Remember, you're talking hundreds just to get the rules, before you even buy models, and then there's the tools and stuff, and that isn't necessarily safe for kids.

And while new players are "worth more," they're having a hard time bringing in new customers of any age level, and there aren't enough existing customers buying all the expensive new kits and books to keep their revenues from dropping.

That's what AdMech and Harlies are all about. They're aimed at the older crowd, the people who know these armies and want them back out of a sense of nostalgia. Kids might go with Harlies (I saw a kid using some Harlies over the weekend, but they were his dad's, from the original box, and this guy was using Space Crusade models and an original Land Raider), but they have as much reason to think other armies are "cool."

[miteyheroes]

that was also back when they proudly stated they made games and the models existed to support the games, not the other way around.

When did they ever say that? I don't remember that.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, look at the three "starter" boxes so far for 40K (6th+): Dark Vengeance, Stormclaw, Deathstorm. Then you see all the Space Marine flyers are "Storm[word]" or something like that, even the Space Wolves. And don't forget Murderfang aka Murderface McMurderpants who's armed with Murder Claws and has Murderlust. Or "Centurions" which makes no sense for the unit (a unit that always makes me think, "Yo dawg, I heard you liked armor, so I made some armor for your armor."). Oh, and Logan Grimnar is riding a hover-sled pulled by two wolves (who don't fly, making the hover part of it even more obnoxious than him having a sled already was).

So yeah, stupid sounding names and ridiculous ideas are flying fast these days, because saturating the market with new stuff for people to buy is more important than taking time to make sure it's not just silly.

Contrast and compare 'Onager Dunewalker' with the traditional Mechanicum names, and the contemporary Mechanicum names from Forgeworld. Not far off High Gothic Pig Latin. And if there's one thing GW do, is stick to their theme.

As for Skitarii? They're different from Tech Guard. Tech Guard are relatively unaugmented humans. Skitarii? Quite heavily augmented as befits their more elite status within the Forgeworld's hierarchy. The pencil drawings we've seen don't really look particularly Mechanicum. Indeed, they're much closer to the Solar Auxilia in look and feel. And come to think of it - when was the last time we saw new pencil drawings in that style from the Design Studio? Much more full colour stuff is being produced.

Still thinking there's something increasingly piscine about these rumours.

[Erik Setzer]

When did they ever say that? I don't remember that.

I'm sure I could find all kinds of quotes if I still had all the White Dwarf magazines and such that my dad had, but that's not that necessary (except, I guess, for those who are relatively new to the hobby and really want to believe the new spin GW's giving). The company started out making things to sell for other companies' games, and called themselves Games Workshop because they made games and stuff for games. When Warhammer was released, they didn't have a large line of fantasy figures. When Rogue Trader was released, they had barely any models for it, showed a deodorant bottle tank in the rulebook, and even had a somewhat disguised modified G.I. Joe vehicle in one image. Heck, 40K 2nd edition had a CARD Dreadnought for the Orks. That was meant to be part of the Ork forces that you used, you actually used a card on a base to represent something in-game. White Dwarf's old philosophy wasn't showing off all kinds of pictures of the models and giving you playing card games to play with certain models, it had stuff to supplement the games and promote the games. They used to do more board games back then, too. GAMES Workshop was clearly about the games, and they made miniatures to support the games.

It was only relatively recently when the management decided to claim they're a miniatures company that makes games to give people something to do with the miniatures people collect. It's completely backward, it's not even remotely how the customers actually see the company's products, but it's their justification for some of the pricing and some of the shenanigans they do with limited copies and such.

[Bigred]

via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/Gw7uRZdPuHI/skitarii-dunewalker-sighted.html) anonymous source 1-5-2015


Ive seen the model so I thought I would chime in and describe the Dunecrawler. Sorry no pictures, it was not possible.

Its a walker with 4 armoured mechanical spider legs. The crew compartment is large metal box angled in the front. There is a small robotic arm in the front with tools and drills on the appendage. The visor for the drivers inside is a slit with optical lenses on the the left hand side of the opening. The Eradication Beamer is big, and looks like a giant conversion beamer, up top there is a gunner with a heavy stubber. I don't know the optional guns, but there are a couple. One that looks like a long barreled autocannon, but has some sort of array attached to it. None of the weapon options look like standard Imperial Weapons.

I also wanted to mention, that this is a Games Workshop release, not Forgeworld.

[Path Walker]

I'm sure I could find all kinds of quotes if I still had all the White Dwarf magazines and such that my dad had, but that's not that necessary (except, I guess, for those who are relatively new to the hobby and really want to believe the new spin GW's giving). The company started out making things to sell for other companies' games, and called themselves Games Workshop because they made games and stuff for games. When Warhammer was released, they didn't have a large line of fantasy figures. When Rogue Trader was released, they had barely any models for it, showed a deodorant bottle tank in the rulebook, and even had a somewhat disguised modified G.I. Joe vehicle in one image. Heck, 40K 2nd edition had a CARD Dreadnought for the Orks. That was meant to be part of the Ork forces that you used, you actually used a card on a base to represent something in-game. White Dwarf's old philosophy wasn't showing off all kinds of pictures of the models and giving you playing card games to play with certain models, it had stuff to supplement the games and promote the games. They used to do more board games back then, too. GAMES Workshop was clearly about the games, and they made miniatures to support the games.

It was only relatively recently when the management decided to claim they're a miniatures company that makes games to give people something to do with the miniatures people collect. It's completely backward, it's not even remotely how the customers actually see the company's products, but it's their justification for some of the pricing and some of the shenanigans they do with limited copies and such.

This is pretty much all nonsense.

Games workshop stated out selling other peoples products, it was a shop. They then started making rules for their own games.

Citadel was a miniature manufacturor that Games Workshop started to make models for them, they then bought out Games Workshop. Games Workshop was bought by Citadel, the model company, this is when the chain started selling their own products exclusivly.

This is why they've always been a miniatures company that make games, since the 80s.

Also the card dread was a standin for the starter set, it was to even up the forces for the scenarios in the starter set, not for regular use, it was for beginners to get to grips with the vehicle rules.

When Rogue Trader came about, they had only just recently started their sci fi line, they didn't know if it would work, and scratch building vehicles was more common as plastic kits were a pipe dream when they didn't know if it would sell. But more importantly, the models came first! The Sci Fi Adventurers pre-dated 40k, the Chaos Warriors pre date WFB. The Models were the starting point.

You've twisted the history of the company and stated things as facts to back up your arguments when the truth is the opposite.

As i stated previously, i worked this out a few months ago, in Uk prices, in 1994, the average pocket money of a child in that age range would buy you 1.1 Space Marines a week, it now buys 1.4.

[DrMobius]

This is pretty much all nonsense.

Games workshop stated out selling other peoples products, it was a shop. They then started making rules for their own games.

Citadel was a miniature manufacturor that Games Workshop started to make models for them, they then bought out Games Workshop. Games Workshop was bought by Citadel, the model company, this is when the chain started selling their own products exclusivly.

This is why they've always been a miniatures company that make games, since the 80s.

Also the card dread was a standin for the starter set, it was to even up the forces for the scenarios in the starter set, not for regular use, it was for beginners to get to grips with the vehicle rules.

When Rogue Trader came about, they had only just recently started their sci fi line, they didn't know if it would work, and scratch building vehicles was more common as plastic kits were a pipe dream when they didn't know if it would sell. But more importantly, the models came first! The Sci Fi Adventurers pre-dated 40k, the Chaos Warriors pre date WFB. The Models were the starting point.

You've twisted the history of the company and stated things as facts to back up your arguments when the truth is the opposite.

As i stated previously, i worked this out a few months ago, in Uk prices, in 1994, the average pocket money of a child in that age range would buy you 1.1 Space Marines a week, it now buys 1.4.

While I agree on most of this. I'm not sure I agree on the pocket money analogy. While it would take me a week to save for a codex or a blister pack when I was much younger. As I'm older I really have to think what I want. Though that's probably because I'm not a kid any longer.

In fact the RT setting was advertised as Fantasy in space.


However back to the Rumours at hand, as I understand they were trying to shrink the product line and bring things more in house so to speak, the 2 New fractions although I would love them to happen. I'm not sure it's going too.

[Erik Setzer]

You've twisted the history of the company and stated things as facts to back up your arguments when the truth is the opposite.

Sir, if you wish to call me a liar, then I will state flat out that you are a liar, and likely a troll. Anyone who has been around knows GW has been, until recently, a games company that used the games to sell the models, and only recently did they claim that they are a model company that produces games to have something to do with the models, which everyone except trolls and/or liars (or maybe people who are just really dense, too) knows is absolutely not true. The games push the model sales, not the other way around. It's always been that way, it always will. They didn't claim anything else in the past. They didn't claim back then that their models were "collector pieces" or anything of the sort, I had to finagle that kind of response out of someone at GW to be able to get decent replacement money from an insurance company for a bunch of models lost in a fire (the original answer was that they sold toy soldiers and it was phrased almost like, "Duh! Of course we sell toy soldiers for playing games, not collector stuff! Why would you even ask that?").*

Also, trying to claim you worked out how many Space Marines pocket money for a kid in the UK will buy you doesn't knock off the point that I see fewer kids in the hobby now than before, and you still need to drop a lot more to get into the hobby than you did back then. And if you want to lie on the inflation rate again, just save yourself the trouble.



*For those wondering, the difference is that gaming pieces - which is what GW figures are - depreciate like crazy, whereas collector pieces don't. Insurance companies want to try to pay you what someone else will pay you second-hand for something, not what the actual replacement cost is.

- - - Updated - - -


via gary's (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Faeit212/~3/Gw7uRZdPuHI/skitarii-dunewalker-sighted.html) anonymous source 1-5-2015

The "Dunewalker" description sounds like an Ork walker (especially with the vision slit thing, which reminds me of the vision slits on Deff Dreads and Killer Kanz). At the very least, I'll probably end up looting one at some point.

Seems like they're going in a very different direction aesthetically from the rest of the Imperial stuff, but that could be a good thing. Too much of the same can be boring, and having something that all Imperial players can use that looks and functions differently should help its popularity.

[miteyheroes]

Sir, if you wish to call me a liar, then I will state flat out that you are a liar, and likely a troll. Anyone who has been around knows GW has been, until recently, a games company that used the games to sell the models, and only recently did they claim that they are a model company that produces games to have something to do with the models, which everyone except trolls and/or liars (or maybe people who are just really dense, too) knows is absolutely not true.

The oldest financial report I can dig up, from 2005, says very clearly that they are a miniature company. "What we do is make wonderful miniatures in a timeless and culturally independent way and sell them at a profit. Everything else we make and do is geared around that end. The games and stories provide the context for the miniatures, our stores are recruitment centres that simply give an opportunity to innate miniatures lovers to know themselves."

http://investor.games-workshop.com/chairmans-preamble-annual-report-2005-06/

But hey, if you have proof that before that they felt differently, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway. These Adeptus Mechanicus rumours are fascinating! Could 2015 carry on the success of the Knights, and be a year of lots of new small factions? Lovely new models to collect, can't wait!

[DrMobius]

I wonder if knights will be allowed within the list.

[40kGamer]

The oldest financial report I can dig up, from 2005, says very clearly that they are a miniature company. "What we do is make wonderful miniatures in a timeless and culturally independent way and sell them at a profit. Everything else we make and do is geared around that end. The games and stories provide the context for the miniatures, our stores are recruitment centres that simply give an opportunity to innate miniatures lovers to know themselves."

Those of us who have been around since the beginning know them as a Game Company. Back in the late 80's they definitely were about 'games supported by models'. At some point over the years they quietly changed to 'models supported by games'... subtle but distinct difference and one that creates a lot of ill will with the grognards... they are obviously free to be whatever they want but its very much a chicken & egg debate. Does the game sell the models or is it the models that sell the game? Obviously Kirby thinks the latter. :p

Actually OT, Mechanicus is a welcome addition and I hope they expand in weird new unconventional ways.

[Mr Mystery]

You can sell a model without a game.

But the other way around, not so much. Least wise not a miniatures game anyway.

Models lead the rules, rather than the other way round.

[40kGamer]

You can sell a model without a game.

But the other way around, not so much. Least wise not a miniatures game anyway.

Models lead the rules, rather than the other way round.

It is a subtle but telling distinction. You can sell a model without a game but you can sell a lot more models with the game. You can also sell a game, even a miniatures game, without offering the models (as the historical community proves) but there again you will sell a lot more games when that are supported by models. The two have a natural synergy. Its the perceived attitude that GW has toward these things (as presented by Mr. Kirby) that riles up the community. Don't want to go too far OT as this is one of those things that gets debated ad infinitum. :p

For me Mechanicus is a cool side project but if the rules suck (ie they prove to be useless in the game) there is no reason to acquire the models... though I spend 99% of my hobby time painting and converting stuff, even I have no desire to invest effort into something that is ultimately pointless rules wise.

[Eldar_Atog]

The oldest financial report I can dig up, from 2005....

Ok, let's stop right there. If you provided a document from the 80's or early 90's, then it would carry some weight. If you want to argue with Setzer on this, then you need to provide evidence from the time period he is referencing.

Excerpt from the Lexicanum entry for Games Workshop:

Games Workshop was originally an importer of American board games and RPGs. When they became publishers of the UK based role-playing magazine White Dwarf, Games Workshop created a national chain of gaming stores in the 1980s. Their publishing arm also created UK reprints of famous but expensive-to-import American RPGs.
During the 90s, following a management buyout in December 1991, the company refocussed on their most lucrative lines, namely their miniature wargame lines. The retail chain refocussed on a younger, more family-oriented market. The change of direction was a great success with a rising share price and growing profits, in spite of the fact that it lost the company much of its old, loyal fanbase. Games Workshop expanded in Europe and the USA, opening new branches and organising events. In October 1997, all UK-based operations were relocated to the current HQ in Lenton, Nottingham.
By the end of the decade, though, the company was having problems with falling profits being blamed on collectible card games.
Recently the company has been attempting to create a dual approach that will appeal to both older, loyal customers while still attracting the younger audience. This has seen the creation of initiatives such as the "Fanatic" range that supports more marginal lines with a lower cost trading model.

Wikipedia's has a bit more detailed account:


Founded in 1975 at 15 Bolingbroke Road, London, by John Peake, Ian Livingstone, and Steve Jackson (not to be confused with US citizen Steve Jackson, also a games designer), Games Workshop was originally a manufacturer of wooden boards for games such as backgammon, mancala, Nine Men's Morris, and Go[3] which later became an importer of the U.S. role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, and then a publisher of wargames and role-playing games in its own right, expanding from a bedroom mail-order company in the process.

In order to promote their business, postal games, create a games club, and provide an alternative source for games news, the newsletter, Owl and Weasel, was founded in February 1975. This was superseded in June 1977 by White Dwarf.

From the outset, there was a clear stated interest in print regarding "progressive games," including computer gaming[4] which led to the departure of traditionalist Peake in early 1976, and the loss of GW's main source of income. However, having successfully obtained official distribution rights to Dungeons & Dragons and other TSR products in the UK, and maintaining a high profile by running games conventions, the business grew rapidly. It opened its first retail shop in April 1978.

In early 1979, Games Workshop provided the funding to found Citadel Miniatures in Newark-on-Trent. Citadel would produce the metal miniatures used in role-playing and table-top wargames. The Citadel name became synonymous with Games Workshop Miniatures, and continues to be a trademarked brand name used in association with them long after the Citadel company was absorbed into Games Workshop. For a time, Gary Gygax promoted the idea of TSR, Inc. merging with Games Workshop, until Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone backed out.

Now, I am sure there will be some people that say that a non GW document like Wikipedia carries no weight but that's just foolish. A financial document is accurate for financial data but not historical data about a company. Corporations only care about historical data being accurate when it suits them.

If you want to argue about this, then provide evidence from the 80's and 90's. Using a 2005 finanicial document is a non starter for this discussion.

[miteyheroes]

Sadly, as I said, I can't find any earlier financial documents than 2005. Although my quote does mean that the "recent" policy of models-first dates back at least 9 years.

And I don't disagree with the early history of GW as presented on Wikipedia. I just feel that the models-first policy has pretty much has driven them since the late 80s/early 90s when they had the management buyout, focused on their unique IP rather than on D&D etc (including dropping that stuff from White Dwarf), floated on the stock market, and aimed at a younger audience. Probably from 2nd ed onwards, almost definitely from 3rd ed. In my view.

But really it's impossible to prove what the management was thinking at any point, and I'll happily concede that we don't know GW's primary motivation in the 90s, but I disagree with this:


It *was* aimed at kids in the past, but that was also back when they proudly stated they made games and the models existed to support the games, not the other way around.

I don't remember them every proudly stating that. And no-one has yet shown that they did.

[Erik Setzer]

I wonder if knights will be allowed within the list.

Likely not included, because there's no need. Knights can be fielded in detachments of 1-3, and are Battle Brothers with all Imperial armies, so you can just take a single Knight as a detachment, and you can affect it with anything that boosts friendly vehicle models (no idea what the AdMech might have in that department yet, but probably no psykers, so don't expect invisible Knights unless they have something for that).

[Erik Setzer]

Sadly, as I said, I can't find any earlier financial documents than 2005. Although my quote does mean that the "recent" policy of models-first dates back at least 9 years.

https://web.archive.org/web/20011104003701/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?PageID=2&GroupID=2

"Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful table top fantasy and futuristic battle-games company in the world. Our business is about helping mighty armies to meet headlong on the field of battle."

"At the heart of the Hobby are the millions of gamers aged 12 upwards,"

"Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over."

"We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000)or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New gamers are more likely to start with core systems."

So yeah, in 2002 they still referred to the hobby as being games, the hobbyists as gamers and not "collectors," and talked a lot about the games. Obviously they talked about the miniatures, too, but you got the point that the miniatures supported the games, not that they made games to sell miniatures.

From the investor report for that year:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030429103517/http://investor.games-workshop.com/Results2002/introduction.htm

"The vast majority of our income and profits come from Games Workshop - a business that designs, manufactures, distributes and sells everything an enthusiast needs to play tabletop wargames in the fantasy world of Warhammer."

Heck, even the page on Citadel Miniatures states that people start by buying a core game and then from there go on to collect an army to play the game:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020622110354/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?pageID=4&GroupID=2

It's also interesting in all of that to see that they admit it's a niche hobby, too.

Somewhere along the line someone apparently thought selling miniatures sounded less niche (ha!) and more "respectable," I guess. But given that even in the early 2000s they *were* still saying they made games and people bought the figures because of the games, my point stands. And these aren't statements for gamers, they're for investors.


Hate to get quite so OT, but hey, there you go. Shows in no uncertain terms that it really wasn't that long ago that they still called themselves a game company and knew that the games were the gateway to sell their other products.

Oh, and funny note: In the last archive of 2005, that page still says much the same thing:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050415154650/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?pageID=2&GroupID=2

In 2007, you could still find an "About" page that said the same, as well as other pages talking about the various gaming events they did and the Outrider program to get people into gaming clubs and such:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070420140142/http://investor.games-workshop.com/about/default.htm

Around 2008, the wording starts shifting over finally to pushing the line that they manufacture miniatures and then make the games to help sell the miniatures and so that people will have something to do with the miniatures. Compare that to the early part of the same decade, when they were talking about getting people into the games and then from there people would collect models to play the games.

It was actually a pretty quick, and recent, shift.

[ElectricPaladin]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what they think of themselves as. What matters is what their customers want to buy. As long as they continue to produce second-rate rules, customers will continue to migrate to (either entirely or - in my case - partly) to games with first-rate rules. Businesses have a very limited capacity to decide what they are for. Ultimately, it's the customers who decide what to buy and how to use it, and when the business and the customer have different ideas, the customer is the one who's going to win (because the company will either adapt, or someone else will show up and fill that niche with a product that is even closer to the customer's desires).

[Eldar_Atog]

Likely not included, because there's no need. Knights can be fielded in detachments of 1-3, and are Battle Brothers with all Imperial armies, so you can just take a single Knight as a detachment, and you can affect it with anything that boosts friendly vehicle models (no idea what the AdMech might have in that department yet, but probably no psykers, so don't expect invisible Knights unless they have something for that).

I wouldn't expect much psyker activity from the mechanicus. I would expect them to be good at repairing and upgrading mechincal equipment.. even during pitched battle.

[miteyheroes]

Interesting, thanks Erik! It's fascinating seeing what was driving their decisions...

[Erik Setzer]

I wouldn't expect much psyker activity from the mechanicus. I would expect them to be good at repairing and upgrading mechincal equipment.. even during pitched battle.

Yeah, but they might have some special stuff that might act similar to psychic powers, kind of like how IG have orders. I could imagine an AdMech commander giving advanced instructions to robots during the battle, or sending override commands to walkers to make them more effective in short bursts. That would be pretty awesome.

If GW doesn't use that idea, I'm keeping it for some house rule fun.

[DrMobius]

Yeah, but they might have some special stuff that might act similar to psychic powers, kind of like how IG have orders. I could imagine an AdMech commander giving advanced instructions to robots during the battle, or sending override commands to walkers to make them more effective in short bursts. That would be pretty awesome.

If GW doesn't use that idea, I'm keeping it for some house rule fun.

They used to have Electo priests that were like living lightning guns....

[Mr Mystery]

I wouldn't expect much psyker activity from the mechanicus. I would expect them to be good at repairing and upgrading mechincal equipment.. even during pitched battle.

Heresy era Mechanicum have equivalent powers, if not actual Psykers.

[Eldar_Atog]

Yeah, but they might have some special stuff that might act similar to psychic powers, kind of like how IG have orders. I could imagine an AdMech commander giving advanced instructions to robots during the battle, or sending override commands to walkers to make them more effective in short bursts. That would be pretty awesome.

If GW doesn't use that idea, I'm keeping it for some house rule fun.

Yeah, that's how I picture them working too. Upgrading units with tech abilities. I hope they don't use the psyker phase for something like this. I would have spend the next few years listening to rules lawyers trying to say that a mechinaum psyker is not like other psykers and can't be affected by other player's anti psyker equipment.

Mystery:
Yeah, but did the mechanicum have the overriding drive to eliminate their physical bodies during the heresy?

[Mr Mystery]

Arguably more so.

One of them got melted off a Xenos, and was left as pretty much a brain in a jar. He has various bodies available, and a personal, short range teleporter to keep him going.

The higher up the echelons, the more modified you are.