Codex Harlequins Rumor Roundup!

[Subs]

It's not the most confidence inducing thing is it lol. Oh well here's hoping my codex turn up with my dice next week. XD

[Bigred]

via Warseer's aracerssx (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403593-A-Laugh-For-Christmas&p=7383355&viewfull=1#post7383355) 2-13-2015

Harlequin Psychic Powers & Enigmas of the Webway: (http://imgur.com/a/Y0n3X)
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Pics from the Harlequin painting guide preview from iTunes
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[daboarder]

sooo much copy and paste photoshop in those pictures

[DarkLink]

Well, the relics and weapons are pretty terrible, but those are some awesome psychic powers.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

sooo much copy and paste photoshop in those pictures:P At least it's better than the early Dark Eldar releases, when they had bits of models phasing in and out of existence.

[Eldar_Atog]

Well, the relics and weapons are pretty terrible, but those are some awesome psychic powers.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Storied Sword but the rest seems interesting... especially Crescendo and the Shadowseer relic. Those could be fun toys. The psyker spells are going to be a hoot.

[helline9]

are the rules for shadowseers & deathjesters released yet?

[Anggul]

The Storied Sword would be brilliant if it wasn't pointlessly denied to Solitaires. It's like they thought: 'No, we can't have one of the most deadly beings in the galaxy being able to kill more than a couple of models a turn'.

The other stuff is quite nice, though Harlequins should really have adamantium will from the start considering what they do and how they join.

[helline9]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Storied Sword but the rest seems interesting... especially Crescendo and the Shadowseer relic. Those could be fun toys. The psyker spells are going to be a hoot.

I'm thinking the 'Mask of secrets' will work well on a Shadowseer against non-fearless targets (both for the hallucinogenic grenade launcher or Phantasmancy), while the 'Starmist raiment' would be good on a Deathjester as the 'Shrieker/ Shuriken cannon' is assault.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh the things those powers will do!

I like the double test one, ace against all LD!

[JMichael]

Pardon the question if it was already answered in this long thread.
Are the only infantry unit choices: Solitaire, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Troupe?
Do we have any info on the shadowseer and Death Jester (points)?
Possibly no US codices for a few more weeks due to dock worker strike.

[helline9]

Pardon the question if it was already answered in this long thread.
Are the only infantry unit choices: Solitaire, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Troupe?
Do we have any info on the shadowseer and Death Jester (points)?
Possibly no US codices for a few more weeks due to dock worker strike.

yes to the infantry question
Solitaire, Deathjester, Shadowseer, Troupes, Plus jetbikes (skyweavers), transports (starweavers) and gunships (voidweavers) makes up the total units. (no HQ at all (which would have been the Great Harlequin) or Mimes if that's what your asking)

don't think there are stats on Shadowseer or Deathjester yet...(any day now)

...i really wanted a Avatar of Cerorach but that's not happening

[helline9]

Pretty sure Cerorach is Eldar for; The greatest 'troll' on the web(way).
"...you mad bro?" -Cerorach, the Laughing God. :P

[Wolfshade]

Might need to dig out my harlies..

[Kirsten]

they should have had Harlequins riding choppers...

[Defenestratus]

I'm usually one to poop on relics and powers but all of these except the sword (which every race gets a relic sword) look awesome and fun. I love the shrieker cannon. It will really punish horde units. Each model that is killed creates a small blast marker of death. Combined with the rate of fire of the Cannon and Bladestorm, it could be a nasty weapon against orks and IG.

[Warhound]

It looks like Shrieker mode is only assault 1.

[Houghten]

(( Edit: Ninja'd by no small amount. Hm. Evidently I had had this thread open for a while longer than I had thought I had had. ))

[Caldera02]

Oh man, you guys see the leaks over on warseer and Dakka? We now have Codex: Trollface :)

[Mr Mystery]

Oh for goodness sake.

It's all in foreign.

We didn't conquer most of the known world and then invent the besterest game evar just to get rumours in foreign.

I shall write to the daily mail c/o Nigel Farage, c/o BNP

[Captain Bubonicus]

It's-a Regole ESPECIALE!!!

[Bigred]

via warseer's ZeroNoRyouki (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403593-A-Laugh-For-Christmas/page82) 2-15-2014

Harlequin Warlord Traits:


- DJ and SS can roll a D6 on the BRB tables or a D3 (that's not a typo) on the Harlequins ones
- The Troupe master can roll a D6 on every tables (BRB & codex)

"Light" table

1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)
4) you can add 4 to any roll to steal the initiative
5) before deployment, choose up to D3 units from your primary detachment. every unit gain one of: deep strike, infiltrate, scout (choose as you like)
6) immediately after deployment and after scout moves, you can remove from the table your warlord and/or up to other D3 friendly units with the Harlequins faction within 12" of the warlord. Any units removed this way may immediately deployed using normal deploiment rules or put in Reserve

"twilight" table

1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)
4) if the mission use variable lenght, you can add or substract 2 to the roll to determine if the game ends
5) any to-wound roll of 6 made by the warlord in close combat (or any to-wound roll of 5+ while making a Kiss of Death attack) gain the Instant Death special rule
6) once per game your warlord and his unit can make a "mirror leap" instead of moving: they can move 24", moving over other models and terrains like in open terrain but cannon end over other models or in impassable terrains. They cannot charge in the same turn

"darkness" table

1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)

4) enemy units in base contact with the warlord or his unit must roll an additional D6 while taking Fear or Morale tests

5) at the end of the game, before declaring the winner, you can move one time only your warlord and his unit like in the movement phase, than they can run or shoot like in the shooting phase, and, next, if you so desire, can charge and fight a single turn of combact like in the assault phase (the adversary can overwath and fight normally). If your warlord is locked in combat at the end of the game, he and his unit can only choose to fight an additional turn of combat. If the warlord unit is embarked, it can disembark but the transport cannot move or shoot. After the warlord and his unit have done this extra action the game end (finally I may say...)

6) if your warlord is removed from play while in a challenge, the players roll out immediately: if you win the roll out or if it is a tie the adversary of your warlord is removed as well

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Darkness is hilarious.

[Bhazakhain]

Do we have the English translation for the Death Jester and Shadowseer rules yet?

[Defenestratus]

Absolutely love them. Holy cow.

[Binary77]

Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

[helline9]

Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

aim for a result of 4 or 5 on the 'light' harlequin warlords table too maybe?

[kharne690]

Combine this with eldar wraith fighters and the forge world aspect warriors that mess with leadership.

[Binary77]

aim for a result of 4 or 5 on the 'light' harlequin warlords table too maybe?

Thinking about it, you don't need the spirit seers. Multiple shadow seers, One with the mask, then add the succubus with armour of misery A web way portal and the unit of wyches and maybe A raider and Lilith for giggles. Deep strike, disembark, 3-5 psychic shrieks (potentially at different units) with -4 LD. Then target any other units with a couple of death jesters for morale tests at -6!

[daboarder]

That number 5 is just stupid broken

And how does it even work in detail.

Take for example a max size jetbike unit with attached warlord, then at the end of the game you get to string all your little Obj Sec Bikes with no fear of retribution and steal the opponents objectives out from under them.

Furthermore how do you handle splitting the unit in the movement phase, the warlords and other ICs go their ways and the unit goes another.

And before you say "well they wouldn't be part of the warlords unit anymore" What then happens if your warlord bites it in overwatch or at a higher I than the unit, does quantum rules instability then mean the table implodes?

[DrBored]

If your opponent knows you have that warlord trait, it gives them more motivation to kill the warlord, not only to prevent that extra turn, but also to get 'Slay the Warlord' point.

It's really not that broken, and if you hide your warlord and a valuable bike unit for the entire game, then you have a big chunk of points doing nothing JUST to take an objective late game.

[daboarder]

If your opponent knows you have that warlord trait, it gives them more motivation to kill the warlord, not only to prevent that extra turn, but also to get 'Slay the Warlord' point.

It's really not that broken, and if you hide your warlord and a valuable bike unit for the entire game, then you have a big chunk of points doing nothing JUST to take an objective late game.

not a single objective, potentially ALL the objectives

and thats not even going into just how good all the other warlord traits are. this is honestly like reading an all stars of warlord traits table.....I haven't seen the competitive gamers get this worked up about broken game design since the last eldar codex.

[Kelshin]

not a single objective, potentially ALL the objectives

and thats not even going into just how good all the other warlord traits are. this is honestly like reading an all stars of warlord traits table.....I haven't seen the competitive gamers get this worked up about broken game design since the last eldar codex.

Well since a unit can't hold more than one objective, the ACTUAL answer is still 1. More to the point, only the Troupe Master can have a chance at those top 3, can't join a bike unit, and can't leave the unit he is in. So you know. There are a ton of reasons why what you think will happen won't.

[helline9]

a lot of people seem to be looking at the harli' warlord traits and panicking but there are distinct flaws with the army.
To start with they are only strength and toughness 3 with a save of 5 which mean they go down like guardsmen, some of those warlord traits on space marines would be OP insane but they're just eldar.

[daboarder]

Well since a unit can't hold more than one objective, the ACTUAL answer is still 1. More to the point, only the Troupe Master can have a chance at those top 3, can't join a bike unit, and can't leave the unit he is in. So you know. There are a ton of reasons why what you think will happen won't.

no as in each attached IC in a jetseer unit breaks away and caps a different objective with the Obj Sec main unit stealing one from the oppoent.


Thats nuts powerful when combined with first turn

- - - Updated - - -


a lot of people seem to be looking at the harli' warlord traits and panicking but there are distinct flaws with the army.
To start with they are only strength and toughness 3 with a save of 5 which mean they go down like guardsmen, some of those warlord traits on space marines would be OP insane but they're just eldar.

Most people are looking at them in combination with Eldar or Dark Eldar forces

[Caldera02]

no as in each attached IC in a jetseer unit breaks away and caps a different objective with the Obj Sec main unit stealing one from the oppoent.


Thats nuts powerful when combined with first turn

- - - Updated - - -



Most people are looking at them in combination with Eldar or Dark Eldar forces

And you can't deal with that unit when you know from the start of the game that the warlord has that?

[daboarder]

And you can't deal with that unit when you know from the start of the game that the warlord has that?

.....:rolleyes:

[Trystis]

.....:rolleyes:

So you're saying the jetseers are chilling with a troupe of harlequins the entire game, and then during that final move they zip off to claim the objectives? Possible, but seems unlikely to play out like that. A lot of points and play would have to be devoted to an unreliable gimmick.

[Kelshin]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/icons/icon1.gif

Everything that we've seen so far indicates a fairly high level of point investment to run them at all, compounded by the fact that if you indeed want to throw a ton of points of Seers with the expressed purpose of rolling a 5 on a chart, Most people would probably be ok with that.

I guess if the plan is to take 400+ points and just have it sit and hide for that final turn objective grab on stuff without OS in a glass cannon army that needs to make the most of it's hitting power then ok.

There wont be a "jetseer" unit. The only one who can have it is the troupe master. If you want to JOIN some Eldar IC's TO that unit...well, the ONE you'll get from your allied detachment. Ok. Enjoy not having half your special rules anymore for that unit. The only stuff it can affect are things that can join the Troupe itself. Which is few and far between.

Crazy, they didnt let the Harlie ICs roll more than a d3 on that table. Almost like balance or something.


EDIT: Though on that note, joining certain PLs to one of those could be not terrible. What with having a 2+ armor buffer and a few of them being CC beasts. Now with 100% more Veil of Tears and Stealth/Shrouded!

[daboarder]

So you're saying the jetseers are chilling with a troupe of harlequins the entire game, and then during that final move they zip off to claim the objectives? Possible, but seems unlikely to play out like that. A lot of points and play would have to be devoted to an unreliable gimmick.

Im sayiing dont be an idiot and if you cant see how powerful and potentially broken some of those warlord traits (plus the psychics, deathjester, Ld shennanigans and general harlequins) are then can I get it in writing and laugh at you in 6 months?

Because these things just gave eldar a boost they really didnt need


edit: Mostly the thing is, this rues design is just blatantly bad, waiting to be abused, and not likely to be fun to play against

[Kelshin]

Sure. Some things are powerful. You can't build an army around a warlord trait. Seizing the Initiative on a 2+ is pretty much way more powerful than getting to move after the game ends; and the unit in question has taken it's fair share of beating. They are extremely powerful; yes. They're also in an army who's best save is a 4+ invulnerable for one turn on 2 units, and the models that can utilize those traits are T3, 2 wounds with a 5+ save. They better do something awesome to play the game.

It's definitely powerful, you wont have to write me, since I'll probably be using them. Is it more powerful than the necron armies who have an army wide 4+ save they always get after their save that they also get regardless of other conditions; and give that to wraith units that become nigh unkillable? Probably not.

If Space Marines had these rules I'd agree, but they don't. They're on T3 5+ save guys who NEED buffs to function. 90% of them are based on luck. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes you lose 250+ points because you flubbed a Psychic roll.

[Trystis]

Im sayiing dont be an idiot and if you cant see how powerful and potentially broken some of those warlord traits (plus the psychics, deathjester, Ld shennanigans and general harlequins) are then can I get it in writing and laugh at you in 6 months?

Because these things just gave eldar a boost they really didnt need


edit: Mostly the thing is, this rues design is just blatantly bad, waiting to be abused, and not likely to be fun to play against

Wow, you're kind of petty. If it means that much to you you can absolutely laugh at me in 6 months, whether I'm right or not, I don't care. I would hope you would have better things to do though.

The tactic you suggested would only work if you take multiple eldar allies or go unbound. It's an expensive gimmick that probably won't work even if you are lucky enough to roll that trait. Planning an army for a warlord trait is bad army building, not bad game design. There will probably be some brutal combinations, but your ideal isn't one of them.

All the harlequin formation require quite an investment in points, as even basic harlequins are expensive. On top of that, the rumored formations generally require that the elites be kept in harlequin units or on there own. The exceptions require a huge point investment, and lots of models. This will prevent a lot of what you're worried about. Lastly craft world eldar don't really need much of what harlequins offer, but I'm sure we will see some leadership shenanigans. dark eldar will benefit more over all probably.

[Subs]

Not broken at all, as far as I can see there's no HQ's and no CAD and your objective holding units are your primary CC ones so the only thing they're going to be doing is taking objectives off the enemy. And then there's the whole Super Heavy / Flyers problem. Harlequin Players are going to have to think very carefully about which objectives and units they actually take on because the whole army is way to spechalised to go for them all.

[40kGamer]

I think Harlies are going to be a fun themed army to play but they'll only be really nasty when mixed with their kin... which is the way any sensible tourney player will take them.

[Voodue]

Any pt costs for seerer, fit lvl 2 upgrade, wep options?... some of us in the states have to wait till March for codex =(

[daboarder]

Not broken at all, as far as I can see there's no HQ's and no CAD and your objective holding units are your primary CC ones so the only thing they're going to be doing is taking objectives off the enemy.

thats not how force construction works anymore in 7th, you take one of the formations (one with the DJ and SS probably) And you bolt it onto an eldar force

[Wolfrahm]

I hope they add the Great Harli, wraithlord, maybe a flyer, mimes and maybe some yet unknown unit/s to the dex. Hopefully we'll know all this soon. It's like catchup, the anticipation is killing me.

[Subs]

And you bolt it onto an eldar force

Exactly, so it's pretty hard to describe a codex that in order to become ultra competitive needs bolting on to a codex that's been around for two years as "broken". Eldar just got a brand new bag o tricks is all, well it's not even that new, just expanded upon.

[Defenestratus]

thats not how force construction works anymore in 7th, you take one of the formations (one with the DJ and SS probably) And you bolt it onto an eldar force

Well unless you take harlies as your primary detach then you aren't rolling on the harlie warlord chart.

[daboarder]

Well unless you take harlies as your primary detach then you aren't rolling on the harlie warlord chart.

um.....dude, there are no rules preventing a formation from being your primary detachment man.....and the only thing "primary" detachment pertains to is where the warlord comes from (and sometimes which units rules affect, but not in this instance)

So Harlequin formation (primary)
Plus Eldar CAD

Perfectly legal army

- - - Updated - - -


Exactly, so it's pretty hard to describe a codex that in order to become ultra competitive needs bolting on to a codex that's been around for two years as "broken". Eldar just got a brand new bag o tricks is all, well it's not even that new, just expanded upon.

sorry, but no one has said the codex harlequins is broken, what they are saying is that its pretty easy to break the game using codex harlequins, you know, in the context of how you actually build an army, and how the units in that army interact with other units from that army

[Subs]

The entire games been broken in that sense since they said you could take an unbound army and just place anything you want on the table.

[DrBored]

The entire games been broken in that sense since they said you could take an unbound army and just place anything you want on the table.

Agreed, anyone who holds onto any pretext that the game is balanced at all needs to go cash their reality check (they'll find that it bounces).

I find it interesting that GW is slowly returning to the way things were back when they started off. They had TONS of little armies, including Harlies and Genestealer Cults and other things, all in metal, all in small forces, and then they dropped all of that when they started to move into plastic, did a whole 'culling' that got rid of all that flavor.. only to slowly start to come back to it all over again?

[Erik Setzer]

Agreed, anyone who holds onto any pretext that the game is balanced at all needs to go cash their reality check (they'll find that it bounces).

I find it interesting that GW is slowly returning to the way things were back when they started off. They had TONS of little armies, including Harlies and Genestealer Cults and other things, all in metal, all in small forces, and then they dropped all of that when they started to move into plastic, did a whole 'culling' that got rid of all that flavor.. only to slowly start to come back to it all over again?


It wasn't the move to plastic that did it. Those armies were in Rogue Trader and 40K 2nd edition, at a time when the entire game was made up of smaller armies. Space Marine Tactical Squads started at 300 points, so even in a 2000 point army, you had maybe 4 squads, a character or two, and one or two vehicles. Smaller armies were how the game worked back then.

It was a desire to sell more that pushed bigger and bigger games, with point costs plummeting even as the basic army points level stayed the same. If you build a Harlequin army, an actual full army, it's not going to be that small. If you don't pump them up with a ton of equipment, you could get 60-70 models into an army easy, and that's with a solid mix of X-weavers thrown in. Genestealer Cult and Adeptus Mechanicus will be much the same, only even more so with the GCs, because you have cheap basic troops and then you have Genestealers, which aren't that expensive.

[40kGamer]

It was a desire to sell more that pushed bigger and bigger games, with point costs plummeting even as the basic army points level stayed the same. If you build a Harlequin army, an actual full army, it's not going to be that small. If you don't pump them up with a ton of equipment, you could get 60-70 models into an army easy, and that's with a solid mix of X-weavers thrown in. Genestealer Cult and Adeptus Mechanicus will be much the same, only even more so with the GCs, because you have cheap basic troops and then you have Genestealers, which aren't that expensive.

GW's been pimping more models on the table for a long time. Still for those of us that routinely play historical games with model counts of 1000+ 40k is still a skirmish game. :p

[Erik Setzer]

GW's been pimping more models on the table for a long time. Still for those of us that routinely play historical games with model counts of 1000+ 40k is still a skirmish game. :p

Sure, but WFB is closer to those kind of games, and WFB's always been higher model count. You also move said units around in regiments, and none of those games literally has 1000+ models unless they're in the 10mm range (maybe 15mm), at which point you're also getting closer to talking Warmaster and Space Marines.

40K's gone right past tanks, though, and includes stuff that should only be seen in massive, huge battles. Not to mention jet fighters and stuff making strafing runs and all, which seems odd for the size of battles it's conveying, even at the increased size of today's battles.

[40kGamer]

Sure, but WFB is closer to those kind of games, and WFB's always been higher model count. You also move said units around in regiments, and none of those games literally has 1000+ models unless they're in the 10mm range (maybe 15mm), at which point you're also getting closer to talking Warmaster and Space Marines.

40K's gone right past tanks, though, and includes stuff that should only be seen in massive, huge battles. Not to mention jet fighters and stuff making strafing runs and all, which seems odd for the size of battles it's conveying, even at the increased size of today's battles.

You can hit 1000+ in 28mm historicals but games definitely scale up as the size decreases. By the time you hit 6mm you're looking at 5000+ for both armies on a 4x8 table.

I've always asserted that fliers and superheavies belong in Epic scale or as display models. Both simply magnify the imbalance in 40k while not adding anything particularly interesting.

On the Harlie front I was bouncing around the GW store and noticed the LE set is long gone. I wasn't sure this one would sell out all that fast but it did.

[Erik Setzer]

On the Harlie front I was bouncing around the GW store and noticed the LE set is long gone. I wasn't sure this one would sell out all that fast but it did.

They only made 900, and this is a codex people have been waiting for literally for two decades.

[Subs]

You can't really apply conventional models of escalation based on how big the combatant forces are to 40K, when a conflict covers anentire planet, like it oftern does in 40K there are going to be multiple battles of various sizes going on permanently, huge forces will face off against each other but at the same time smaller forces will be looking to flank and find weakspots and patrols will be clashing in contested area's. Things like flyers and super heavies are going to be on call permanantly and would crop up in smaller battles, i suspect a lot of the smaller battles would actually be about destroying and crippling the super heavies and such, ambushing them while they move position.

Added to which it's a bit weird to moan about flyers and such when legendary Chapter and Company Masters seem to crop every other battle . . oh look it's the Space Wolf legends, again, haven't I killed them once already?

[Eldar_Atog]

They only made 900, and this is a codex people have been waiting for literally for two decades.

Plus, it's likely this will be the only Harlequin codex we will ever see. This will probably be the only limited edition codex I will ever buy.

[Wolfshade]

It was a desire to sell more that pushed bigger and bigger games, with point costs plummeting even as the basic army points level stayed the same.

I'm not entirely convinced by this GW standard tournament sizes were 1750pts even at the end of 2nd. While certainly the guy who said, if we half the cost of models we can double the amoutn we sell, probably still rubbing his hands in glee at his acumen, there was also a desire to play larger games from the community.
One only had to look at how clunky it got combat where there were multiple attackers vs 1 defender. I remember taking my 30 man DC into CC against a blood thirster and it was a nightmare and took almost as long as the rest of the game to resolve that one combat, what with each DC having it's own weapons and special rules and applying the bonuses and calculating parries, critical hits and fumbles, it was clunky yet people tried to play larger and larger games.

[Kirsten]

yup, having played for nearly twenty years, I long remember White Dwarf articles about the difficulties of staging larger battles, and how that was the aim of 3rd edition 40k, to make larger games possible. look at the excitement that followed the release of Apocalypse, it isn't just a 'ooh, let's sell more models'. it is 'ooh, let's have massive games and play all weekend' which people have always done anyway.

[40kGamer]

Added to which it's a bit weird to moan about flyers and such when legendary Chapter and Company Masters seem to crop every other battle . . oh look it's the Space Wolf legends, again, haven't I killed them once already?

Those of us who confine the SC's to the display shelf shall continue to moan away. :p

The way most flyers are handled makes the least sense as they completely break the timescale of the game. Even in Epic where the ground scale difference is massive, flyers do not stay on the table. Each turn they perform a specific task and then they're gone until next turn.

[Thaldin]

yup, having played for nearly twenty years, I long remember White Dwarf articles about the difficulties of staging larger battles, and how that was the aim of 3rd edition 40k, to make larger games possible. look at the excitement that followed the release of Apocalypse, it isn't just a 'ooh, let's sell more models'. it is 'ooh, let's have massive games and play all weekend' which people have always done anyway.

Hell, Rogue Trader games used to take all weekend, multiple pizzas, movies for the person who's turn it wasn't and a 3rd party to supervise LOL

[40kGamer]

Hell, Rogue Trader games used to take all weekend, multiple pizzas, movies for the person who's turn it wasn't and a 3rd party to supervise LOL

And that was with a couple squads per side. :D

[DrBored]

Those of us who confine the SC's to the display shelf shall continue to moan away. :p

The way most flyers are handled makes the least sense as they completely break the timescale of the game. Even in Epic where the ground scale difference is massive, flyers do not stay on the table. Each turn they perform a specific task and then they're gone until next turn.

Even though this is way off topic, I totally agree. I hope that future iterations of the rules will restrict the ways that fliers can move, and that they would only be seen every other turn. It would make Necron players think twice before embarking all their troops in hugely maneuverable transports - suddenly stealing objectives isn't so easy with this stupid-cheap flier. It would also fit the role better, however if that's the case, I hope other fliers get a boost to their killing power, like Stormtalons. On the flip side, being on the table for only half the game would help nerf things like Heldrakes and Stormravens that just have too much power and potential. Plus, only having to worry about fliers for half of a game would help ease the pressure on opponents that don't have as much anti-flyer in their whole codex!

[Bigred]

Confirmed from the physical codex:

by Warseer's ZeroNoRyouki (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403593-A-Laugh-For-Christmas&p=7387951&viewfull=1#post7387951) 2-19-2015


Harlequin Tactical Objectives
11) Dance of Death
You gain 1 VP at the end of your turn if at least one enemy unit was destroyed during your turn

12) Hit and run
You gain 1 VP at the end of your turn if at least one friendly unit Hit&Run off a combat during your turn. If 3 or more unit do it, you gain D3 VP instead

13) Tricks and pitfalls
When you generate this objective, both players secretly select one objetive marker. You gain 1 VP at the end of your turn if you control one of those markers. If you control both or if you control one that was selected by both players, you gain D3 VP instead

14) The joy of lament
You gain 1 VP at the end of your turn if at least 1 enemy unit failed a Morale, Pinning or Fear test during your turn

15) Appears on the scene
You gain 1 VP at the end of your turn if you control the objective marker whose number equals the turn number. Can't be obtained from turn 7 onward [you don't say....]

16) Main attraction
(I'm rewording it)
At the end of the game you gain:
- 1 VP if your Warlord is alive. OR
- D3 VP if your Warlord is alive and the enemy one is not. OR
- D3 + 3 VP if your Warlord killed the enemy one during a challenge

Harlequin Allies
BB: Eldar and Dark Eldar
Conv: Imperium and Tau
Desperate: Orks
Apoc: everything else

You can't use the CAD or Allied detachment (because we have no HQ) so yes, only formations and masque detachment

Any Character can be the Warlord

[Mr Mystery]

yup, having played for nearly twenty years, I long remember White Dwarf articles about the difficulties of staging larger battles, and how that was the aim of 3rd edition 40k, to make larger games possible. look at the excitement that followed the release of Apocalypse, it isn't just a 'ooh, let's sell more models'. it is 'ooh, let's have massive games and play all weekend' which people have always done anyway.

Indeed. It's a natural evolution of a hobby game. The longer someone plays, the larger their collection gets, the bigger the game they want to play, particularly when the backdrop of the setting has always been about staggering numbers of warriors getting stuck in with the boot leather.

[Path Walker]

Yep, 3rd was a reaction to what the customers wanted, easy to play large games.

[Mr Mystery]

Quite.

I don't think anyone ever really objects to planning and playing a game that takes many hours to see through, as long as said hours aren't predominantly book keeping and 'end of turn phase' stuff - which 2nd Ed had in abundance.

For my money, 3rd Ed went a bit too far, throwing out baby with the bathwater if you like. Whilst the game was well streamlined down (including clarifying if you had to beat, or merely equal vehicle armour to do damage) the books and armies that followed just seemed hollowed out. Ever since, they've been dropping more and more of 2nd Ed stuff in, without bringing back all the counters and tables and markers, which for me are best off left ou. Whilst it was fun watching a plasma grenade marker expand all over your opponent, when you'd just chucked 20 of them, it became very, very tiresome!

[Path Walker]

Agreed, 3rd drove me away as it became a bit soulless, seems to be where all these people with their weird ideas about trying to win came in, every edition has added a bit more of the fun back to the game, given it some soul.

2nd was great if you were playing small 20-30 model games, it is still a brilliant system for Necromunda and i still think modifying the to hit roll is a much better mechanic than cover saves.

[Erik Setzer]

For my money, 3rd Ed went a bit too far, throwing out baby with the bathwater if you like. Whilst the game was well streamlined down (including clarifying if you had to beat, or merely equal vehicle armour to do damage) the books and armies that followed just seemed hollowed out. Ever since, they've been dropping more and more of 2nd Ed stuff in, without bringing back all the counters and tables and markers, which for me are best off left ou. Whilst it was fun watching a plasma grenade marker expand all over your opponent, when you'd just chucked 20 of them, it became very, very tiresome!


Eh... I'd still like to see a secondary version of 40K with that kind of detail in it, for when people want to play skirmish-level games. Maybe not all the stuff from before, but a lot of cool stuff. It really did make for narrative battles, which people say they want. As an expansion or even a different game with its own rules that happens to use 40K models, I'd love to see something like that available again.

[Defenestratus]

Agreed, 3rd drove me away as it became a bit soulless, seems to be where all these people with their weird ideas about trying to win came in, every edition has added a bit more of the fun back to the game, given it some soul.

2nd was great if you were playing small 20-30 model games, it is still a brilliant system for Necromunda and i still think modifying the to hit roll is a much better mechanic than cover saves.

My friends and I are actually working on a ruleset called "Vet 40k" that brings back some things like "to-hit" modifiers for cover instead of just another mostly worthless save.

[Charon]

My friends and I are actually working on a ruleset called "Vet 40k" that brings back some things like "to-hit" modifiers for cover instead of just another mostly worthless save.

I would really love this... no "to hit" modifiers was really a step in the wrong direction... same with the CC system where WS is basically an underwhelming stat. Either you hit on 3, 4 or 5 not much variance in a fight between WS1 and WS10... unlike BS where every increase counts.

[Erik Setzer]

I would really love this... no "to hit" modifiers was really a step in the wrong direction... same with the CC system where WS is basically an underwhelming stat. Either you hit on 3, 4 or 5 not much variance in a fight between WS1 and WS10... unlike BS where every increase counts.

WS has pretty much been like that forever. Though WFB has some modifiers in places (i.e. items that give +1 to hit, or the Mark of Nurgle being -1 to hit).

[Charon]

Nope. In 2nd edition a high WS was a bigger advantage than a high A number.
Basically (without taking into account parry, criticals, botches and multiple opponents) you rolled a number of D6 according to your A, picked the highest and added your WS (opponent did the same) the difference was the number of hits scored on the model with the lower number.
If I recall correctly crits where any 6 after the first adding +1 to your score, botch was the other way round any 1 after the first -1 to the score and parry forced you to reroll one result.

They swithed to the fantasy system in 3rd dition.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Death Jester and Shadowseer are up.

Nice looking models, but I could see it being a challenge for people wanting multiples of them so I hope they keep the old finecast ones around so people can have a bit of variety - both the old ones are labelled with "(Classic)" which would seem promising that both would be kept though!

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99070111002_HarlequinShadowseer01.jpg
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Harlequin-Shadowseer

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99070111001_HarlequinDeathJester01.jpg
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Harlequin-Death-Jester

Looks like the Death jester has TWO face masks, whiel the Shadowseer has the option of a shuriken pistol or neuro disruptor. Cool to see some options even if it's only a little!

[Charon]

A whooping 50% price increase and hard to alter monoposes... wtf

[Kirsten]

I do love the Death Jester, I would love to see a Maugan Ra conversion from one

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juh3A9y-thI

[deinol]

A whooping 50% price increase and hard to alter monoposes... wtf

Only a surprise if you haven't looked at any previous character model release in the last year.

I will say plastic is much easier to tweak. I already customized my solitaire.

[Erik Setzer]

Only a surprise if you haven't looked at any previous character model release in the last year.

I will say plastic is much easier to tweak. I already customized my solitaire.

Well, other character releases were typically something you'd only need one of, not three of. Having already gone through the PITA of modifying a box of Harlies, I'm just going to use my old models for some characters and new models for others, so I have a mix without wanting to stab myself with my X-Acto knife.

[Dlatrex]

Very pretty! I must echo the comments that they seem a little difficult to customize though.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Are we saying that the last model was easy to convert?

[Erik Setzer]

Since my print codex won't be available for weeks, I grabbed the digital copy this morning (and I have to admit, if I did the shoddy layout job someone did on the Kindle version, I'd probably be fired, because it's pathetic in places). I'm not a fan of how limited the army is as an army - mainly in that you either have to play Unbound, or use a very specific detachment or formations - but the formations are nice to add to other armies, especially Eldar and Dark Eldar armies. It's probably not a coincidence that the cover of the codex has "Codex Eldar" at the top, it feels like it's meant to supplement the Eldar armies, but can be used with other armies as well.

Since Orks aren't CTA, that'll make it easier for me to mix them in with the Orks even. Much easier with Imperials, and seamless with Eldar/Dark Eldar.

Actually... you can use an Autarch as a High Avatar, Guardians as Mimes (especially Storm Guardians), and Wraithlords as Harlequin Wraithlords, mix in some Harlequin formations, and you have a lot more options and an army that blends together brilliantly. And if you have old Harlequin Jetbikes, you can sub in the rules for Eldar Jetbikes and call them "Mime Jetbikes" or something. Not perfect, but it could be fun to model and play with.

[Eldar_Atog]

Since my print codex won't be available for weeks..

Maybe the wait won't be quite that long. Just got an email stating that my one GW package (limited edition codex) should be delivered this week. Looks like it is already at the local processing hub.

[Thaldin]

Yeah my stuff has been trickling in as well. Still no Codex yet, but I've gotten my jetbikes, my troupe, my solitaire

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My Mimes are going to be Wraithguard, the soulless shells who do not speak.

[Mr Mystery]

Picked up Codex and Cards this morning.

Lovely stuff!

[Erik Setzer]

Maybe the wait won't be quite that long. Just got an email stating that my one GW package (limited edition codex) should be delivered this week. Looks like it is already at the local processing hub.

Limited edition is different. Those were likely produced in England, not in China.

What's really annoying me is that I preordered the cards and dice, got neither this week. I expected that issue with the cards, but the dice? Didn't expect them to be made in China too...

[Defenestratus]

Since my print codex won't be available for weeks, I grabbed the digital copy this morning (and I have to admit, if I did the shoddy layout job someone did on the Kindle version, I'd probably be fired, because it's pathetic in places).

ePub doesn't have a strict layout due to the fact that its meant to be use on different screens sizes with different aspect ratios. On my galaxy Tab Pro 12.2 it looks fine in some places and terrible in others. If you adjust the scaling in the Play Books app it looks better.

But do what I do instead... get one of the free ePub authoring tools out there, load up the Harlequin dex and modify the layout yourself. I always take all of the units and their rules and make it so it fits on a single page. Did it with the Eldar Codex and took that monstrosity down to like... 30 or so pages.

[Path Walker]

Yeah, laying out the ebook versions is an impossible job because of the various sizes, resolutions and what-not, the iPad editions are all really lovely and done very well.

[Erik Setzer]

ePub doesn't have a strict layout due to the fact that its meant to be use on different screens sizes with different aspect ratios. On my galaxy Tab Pro 12.2 it looks fine in some places and terrible in others. If you adjust the scaling in the Play Books app it looks better.

But do what I do instead... get one of the free ePub authoring tools out there, load up the Harlequin dex and modify the layout yourself. I always take all of the units and their rules and make it so it fits on a single page. Did it with the Eldar Codex and took that monstrosity down to like... 30 or so pages.


The Kindle actually uses the .mobi files, not the .epub files (luckily GW makes both available when you buy the ebooks). And since the .mobi files are really only used on Kindles, you'd think that would make it easy to test. All you need is one Kindle for the team, maybe one of each size, that's less than a thousand dollars invested.

And even with different screen sizes, there are ways to make it work. I work on web pages and emails all day that have to be responsive to screen size, so they'll even change the layout based on what size the screen of the device is (in terms of pixels). I'd think there'd be similar ways to do that with an ebook. Especially with as extremely basic as the formatting is. Just seems really annoying to pay $35 for something that didn't have proper testing done and seems like they just slapped in barely formatted text, images for the profiles (which makes them appear smaller and harder to read), and the artwork is pretty small and always stuck at the end of a section, which makes sense, but it just feels so lacking next to the print books.

There's *one* option to fix the titles that break up words (which happens four times just in the fluff section for units), and that's to reduce the font size for everything. Drop it three times, and the headers no longer run too long, but the other text starts getting a bit small.

Guess I'll have to deal with one issue or the other until I get my print book.

[Path Walker]

Kindle isn't simple either because you have to account for changing text sizes, the way they do it now is the most effective for all devices, the time spent testing and making it work for one device would break it for another, there just isn't a whole lot you can do with any ebook files when you're talking about formatting, its designed for text, not what GW, reluctantly and only to meet vocal customer demand from those poor non-iPad people, have tried to use it for.

[Defenestratus]

And since the .mobi files are really only used on Kindles, you'd think that would make it easy to test. All you need is one Kindle for the team, maybe one of each size, that's less than a thousand dollars invested.

Not really... The kindle app is used on more tablet devices than eReaders at this point...

They could be responsive, but then you'd have to deal with zooming issues on smaller screen sizes...

(And sorry, I forgot Kindle was mobi. I started using Google Play Books and epubs due to the fact that the content of my uploaded books can be voice search indexed.)


and only to meet vocal customer demand from those poor non-iPad people, have tried to use it for.

If I wanted to use an inferior computing device like an iPad, could afford them in droves.

My solution with the voice search index is much much better than anything the iPad can do.

[Path Walker]

If I wanted to use an inferior computing device like an iPad, could afford them in droves.

My solution with the voice search index is much much better than anything the iPad can do.

People get awfully touchy when you insult their weird cheapo knock off tablets

[Defenestratus]

People get awfully touchy when you insult their weird cheapo knock off tablets

I'm not touchy. I'm just stating fact.

[Erik Setzer]

Not really... The kindle app is used on more tablet devices than eReaders at this point...

They could be responsive, but then you'd have to deal with zooming issues on smaller screen sizes...

(And sorry, I forgot Kindle was mobi. I started using Google Play Books and epubs due to the fact that the content of my uploaded books can be voice search indexed.)

Kindle Fire tablets - the only ones that can read the books - are pretty much "standard" tablet size. But yeah, text at least should be set to be responsive somehow. Or just not use those huge font sizes for the headers. I think I'm mostly touchy on this because I know they *could* do better, but they choose to go with what looks like the easiest route they can, and still charge almost as much as the paperback books.

I don't trust voice anything on computers. They tend to not "hear" me right. But that's just me.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not touchy. I'm just stating fact.

Eh. He trolls everything else, not a surprise he seems to be trolling people who don't buy cheaply made but expensive to purchase toys. The only reason I have an iPhone is because at the time I bought it, it was the only touch-screen phone with the stuff I needed, and my fingers were too big to work those tiny physical keyboards on Blackberry devices. Apple products claim to be superior, but aside from dealing with a Mac crashing repeatedly on me when I tried to do the same amount of work on it I can do on a much cheaper PC, even my phone crashes. They're designed for people with more money than sense, who like to claim the amount of money they can throw away on stuff makes them superior to other people, just because they can waste more money than the rest of us (even if the reality is that we have the money but choose not to waste it).

[Path Walker]

Anything with the kindle app installed can read .mobi, so thats most smart phones and tablets, PCs and kindle eBooks.

[Defenestratus]

Kindle Fire tablets - the only ones that can read the books - are pretty much "standard" tablet size.

Eh? Not sure what you're saying. Any android tablet can install the kindle app and immediately "become" a kindle... this is from my Tab pro 12.2 which has a 16:9 aspect ratio... the new nexus 9 is 4:3 (sigh) but most of the android tablets (the ones using the black libary epub/mobi downloads) are 16:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mcanIONSgKs/VOtaDYe_xiI/AAAAAAAA01U/AvvRI2lW_yI/w1384-h865-no/Screenshot_2015-02-23-10-44-16.png

[Erik Setzer]

Oh, sorry for the confusion, I meant the only ones from the Kindle line. Kindle has their standard readers, which are designed to read like paper and very limited in styling and all, and the Fire range, which can show images, surf the web, run Android apps, play movies, all kinds of stuff. So in the Kindle line, the Fire is the only range that can read the books, and they're 6", 7", and 8.9", which seems to cover the basic range of tablet sizes. I imagine the Kindle app on other tablets ends up looking the same as reading on a Kindle Fire. So if it works on the test Fire device(s), it should look right on other tablets using the Kindle app.

[Path Walker]

Oh, sorry for the confusion, I meant the only ones from the Kindle line. Kindle has their standard readers, which are designed to read like paper and very limited in styling and all, and the Fire range, which can show images, surf the web, run Android apps, play movies, all kinds of stuff. So in the Kindle line, the Fire is the only range that can read the books, and they're 6", 7", and 8.9", which seems to cover the basic range of tablet sizes. I imagine the Kindle app on other tablets ends up looking the same as reading on a Kindle Fire. So if it works on the test Fire device(s), it should look right on other tablets using the Kindle app.

This isn't true at all, you can load .mobi on to ANY kindle device. You've been told why your idea can't work, deal with it and move on

[JMichael]

I read them on my Windows PC with the Kindle app. I found the Kindle app on my computer and Android phone looks better than some of the .mobi readers out there.

[Wolfrahm]

Are there any other units in the codex besides what we have seen in the WD? You don't have to say what but just a simple yes or know will help break the ice. Thanks

[deinol]

Are there any other units in the codex besides what we have seen in the WD? You don't have to say what but just a simple yes or know will help break the ice. Thanks

All of the units have been spoiled already.

Troupe
Deathjester
Shadowseer
Solitaire
Sky weavers
Star weavers
Void weavers

There are a lot of smaller formations if you just want to use a few things as allies.

One is three characters who can't join units (one of each type) but get stealth, shrouded, and infiltrate.
One is troupe plus death jester plus Shadowseer, must stay together, has crusade and gives crusade to Eldar and Dark Eldar within six inches.

One lets you hit and run back into star weavers.

Another one with sky weavers and void weavers. I think it let's you re-roll junk saves.

Biggest formation is basically the full detachment, and let's you re-roll 1s on invuln saves, plus after turn two you can run and charge if you have fleet (so everything on foot).

Still figuring out how I can best use the book until I build up enough sky weavers for the big formation.

[Wolfrahm]

Thanks for that!

[Jared van Kell]

Limited edition is different. Those were likely produced in England, not in China.

What's really annoying me is that I preordered the cards and dice, got neither this week. I expected that issue with the cards, but the dice? Didn't expect them to be made in China too...

It is the same as anything made these days. Your toys are made by the lowest bidder.

JvK :cool: