New Blood Angels codex (as allies) against the Eldar, first impressions

[Lost Vyper]

Hi,

Lost Vyper here, giving you the first impressions of the new BA -codex, from the opponents view...

Ok, got to play two games today with this list (Iyanden) against GK/Blood Angels/Inquisition 2500p...

CAD 1

HQ
Asurmen (got the three WLT´s today! All crap! He was rollin with the DA´s :) )
Farseer (Shard)
joined by the bikes

TROOP
6 x Jetbikes (2 x Cannon)
9 x DA´s + Exarch (PM+SS)
Wave Serpent (tlBL,Holo)

FAST
Crimson Hunter (Exarch)

HEAVY
Wraithlord (2 x Flamer, 2 x BL, GC)

CAD 2

HQ
Baharroth
Spiritseer
joined by the WG

TROOP
5 x WG (D-Scythes)
Wave Serpent (tlBL,Holo)
5 x Rangers

FAST
9 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Hawks Talon)

HEAVY
3 x WW (2 x BL)

Wraithknight (Suncannon, Scatter Laser)

and...they were pretty fast matches...i won both, opponent threw in the towel in the first match in round three or four (and second in turn 4-5), after Mephiston was dusted by Asurmen...we had modified Maelstrom Primary, Kill points Secondary and Tertiary (FB,LL,STWL,LB)...he had 2 x Dredknights, Interceptors, the 10 x Terminators with Liby and Captain plus Coteaz, Mephiston, Sternguard in a pod, Valkyrie plus some blokes inside and a Stormaraven and Scouts...the nerfing of Mephiston is HUGE! Even with his Quickening, Asurmen had no problem with him, due to his AP3 weapon and Asurmen has the 2+ save...Sternguard are still nasty (wounds on 2+ shots against MC´s anyone? ), but they couldnt hack it...after the DK´s are gone, i just avoid the Termies (who had Gate of Infinity), but they are slow...plus, GK doesn´t have the weapons (ranged) to deal with WS´s...they couldn´t´kill either one of mine in either games. Nerfing of the Vangard veterans (no assault, when you come in) hurt like h*** the BA´s! It seems, that the BA -codex is even worst than the GK...that´s a shame, cos my friend has thousands of points in these armies...i don´t know WHO creates these WACK codecies....how hard can it be? I think, that even i could make a better codex, than the person who is charge for these two sorry-accuses-for-a-codex...BUT...we are making a series of "Testing the new Blood Angels codex -batreps". 1500p and i´ll face him in four different matches, with Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar and Eldar (PURE lists, no allies) and we´ll might have our verdict...

- Lost Vyper

[ShadowcatX]

Um... Was this a rules question or did you think this was a rant subforum? Easy mistake to make, I'm sure.

Here's an idea, next time, instead of allying 2 armies that have the same strengthes and weaknesses, ally 2 armies who cover one another's weknesses. Don't blame the codex because you allied 2 armies with weak anti-tank options and then couldn't blow up a tank. And don't blame the codex because you sent a LoW with AP 3 up against someone who is much, much slower but has a 2+ save.

[Charon]

Maybe read again and find out that he was in fact the eldar player?

[rpricew]

WALL O TEXT... how about some spacing. That was terrible to read.

[Charistoph]

Maybe read again and find out that he was in fact the eldar player?

No, Shadowcat's response was right on. This part of the forum is about rules question, not for ranting about codices. That's best left to Tactics or General.

[World Of Pain]

Um... Was this a rules question or did you think this was a rant subforum? Easy mistake to make, I'm sure.

Here's an idea, next time, instead of allying 2 armies that have the same strengthes and weaknesses, ally 2 armies who cover one another's weknesses. Don't blame the codex because you allied 2 armies with weak anti-tank options and then couldn't blow up a tank. And don't blame the codex because you sent a LoW with AP 3 up against someone who is much, much slower but has a 2+ save.

So what is a good army (and what units from it) to counter Wave Serpents now? I used to take ´em down really easy with Vanguard Vets (melta bombs / Power fist, d6 scatter, re-roll reserve roll, assault after deep stirke) but right now I cant find anything.

Iv allready tried Astra Militarum with tons of Lascanons, Storm Ravens with tons of missiles and Sternguards with combi melta´s in drop pod but they just jink with 3+ or downgrade those few pens to glance. 4 games now and I think I was able to bring one down from lucky combined fire and one with super crazy teleport deep strike with terminators who were able to shoot it against rear armour. Rest of them fly, shoot and deliver units like wraith guard with d-scythes to right spots and destroy what evere is left after war walkers and wraithknight.

Psy powers really don´t help that much because its really only 2-3 out 6 that you are able to get that perfect timeing so you cant really make your lists acording to that (even if it really helps a lot if you do get it).

Really, really like to get some new ideas from you or anyone else! Thanks!

[Lost Vyper]

Yep, me be Eldar, World of Pain be Blood Angel (read the title of the thread), and if this is in a wrong area, sooorrrrrryyyyy :(... you can move it. I thought here there would have been answers/ideas to ultra-nerfed new rules...

[Gleipnir]

So what is a good army (and what units from it) to counter Wave Serpents now? I used to take ´em down really easy with Vanguard Vets (melta bombs / Power fist, d6 scatter, re-roll reserve roll, assault after deep stirke) but right now I cant find anything.

Iv allready tried Astra Militarum with tons of Lascanons, Storm Ravens with tons of missiles and Sternguards with combi melta´s in drop pod but they just jink with 3+ or downgrade those few pens to glance. 4 games now and I think I was able to bring one down from lucky combined fire and one with super crazy teleport deep strike with terminators who were able to shoot it against rear armour. Rest of them fly, shoot and deliver units like wraith guard with d-scythes to right spots and destroy what evere is left after war walkers and wraithknight.

Psy powers really don´t help that much because its really only 2-3 out 6 that you are able to get that perfect timeing so you cant really make your lists acording to that (even if it really helps a lot if you do get it).

Really, really like to get some new ideas from you or anyone else! Thanks!

Couple options I'd recommend is either using the new Angels Fury Spearhead(Meltas and Heavy Flamers) combined with Jump Infantry(Baal Strike Force for +1 Int) to charge after deep strike, at 2500 points its affordable which would allow you to play as you did previously.

The other would be to take advantage of the Archangels Sanguine formation to load up 3 10 man Veteran squads with special weapons for 400 points less than it would have costed normally.

At 2500 points you could do both and still have points left over for a Primary detachment for your warlord and some cheap troops.

[Docrailgun]

Good thing you played against some players who weren't playing to the strengths of their Codexes. Where were the melta ASM pod squads? Where were the gravity gun bikers? Where were the Death Company units? Heavy flamer tacs to counter charges?

Hi,

Lost Vyper here, giving you the first impressions of the new BA -codex, from the opponents view...

Ok, got to play two games today with this list (Iyanden) against GK/Blood Angels/Inquisition 2500p...

CAD 1

HQ
Asurmen (got the three WLT´s today! All crap! He was rollin with the DA´s :) )
Farseer (Shard)
joined by the bikes

TROOP
6 x Jetbikes (2 x Cannon)
9 x DA´s + Exarch (PM+SS)
Wave Serpent (tlBL,Holo)

FAST
Crimson Hunter (Exarch)

HEAVY
Wraithlord (2 x Flamer, 2 x BL, GC)

CAD 2

HQ
Baharroth
Spiritseer
joined by the WG

TROOP
5 x WG (D-Scythes)
Wave Serpent (tlBL,Holo)
5 x Rangers

FAST
9 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Hawks Talon)

HEAVY
3 x WW (2 x BL)

Wraithknight (Suncannon, Scatter Laser)

and...they were pretty fast matches...i won both, opponent threw in the towel in the first match in round three or four (and second in turn 4-5), after Mephiston was dusted by Asurmen...we had modified Maelstrom Primary, Kill points Secondary and Tertiary (FB,LL,STWL,LB)...he had 2 x Dredknights, Interceptors, the 10 x Terminators with Liby and Captain plus Coteaz, Mephiston, Sternguard in a pod, Valkyrie plus some blokes inside and a Stormaraven and Scouts...the nerfing of Mephiston is HUGE! Even with his Quickening, Asurmen had no problem with him, due to his AP3 weapon and Asurmen has the 2+ save...Sternguard are still nasty (wounds on 2+ shots against MC´s anyone? ), but they couldnt hack it...after the DK´s are gone, i just avoid the Termies (who had Gate of Infinity), but they are slow...plus, GK doesn´t have the weapons (ranged) to deal with WS´s...they couldn´t´kill either one of mine in either games. Nerfing of the Vangard veterans (no assault, when you come in) hurt like h*** the BA´s! It seems, that the BA -codex is even worst than the GK...that´s a shame, cos my friend has thousands of points in these armies...i don´t know WHO creates these WACK codecies....how hard can it be? I think, that even i could make a better codex, than the person who is charge for these two sorry-accuses-for-a-codex...BUT...we are making a series of "Testing the new Blood Angels codex -batreps". 1500p and i´ll face him in four different matches, with Orks, CSM, Dark Eldar and Eldar (PURE lists, no allies) and we´ll might have our verdict...

- Lost Vyper

[Charistoph]

Heck, the Stalker and Hydra should be awesome against Wave Serpents. Both are twin-linked, don't care if Pens are downed to Glanced because it is based on Glancing things to death, anyway, and has the volume to do it, and Skyfire still helps against Skimmers. It requires Allies for Blood Angels, but hey, there are worse things to Ally.

Unfortunately, Grav is less effective against Vehicles than Monstrous Creatures and Marine Characters, and the Centurion's Grav Cannons are far better at getting that lucky Glance than the Guns, even on Bikes.

[World Of Pain]

Good thing you played against some players who weren't playing to the strengths of their Codexes. Where were the melta ASM pod squads? Where were the gravity gun bikers? Where were the Death Company units? Heavy flamer tacs to counter charges?

I was the BA player vs. him in those games. I´v tried 10 man sternguard drop pod unit (with 10 combi-meltas) vs. Wave Serpents but math just isn´t there. On a good dice day you hit about 7 times, from those you glance or pen about 6 times. From those 6 Wave Serpent will save with jink 3+ average 4 and downgrade any pens to glance with 2+. So in a good day you get two glances with that try and after that you are standing there no more than 6" away from what ever is going to come out of it or is around you. Normaly you get shot down to 3-4 men on the next Eldar turn.

Grav guns are even more unrelaiable in this. With bikes you dont get enough shots. With sternguard you get 20 shots if you land near enough. Hit about 14 times in a good day and out of those you get about 2-3 "six to glance and immobilize" hits. If you are lucky he will fail one and get immobilized for the rest of the game. But its not that hard for WS to jink those.

Death Company gets shot from the table with those same bright lance Warwalkers that take care of my terminators (they at least get 4++ with sanctuary). Feel no pain doesn´t help you vs. S8 weapon. If you deep strike them too close Wraithknight will waste them with suncannon hits on the midle of the DS formation and then assault whats left. They just get crushed. GK terminators are more scary for him because of 4++ and S5 - S9 Force weapons.

- - - Updated - - -


Heck, the Stalker and Hydra should be awesome against Wave Serpents. Both are twin-linked, don't care if Pens are downed to Glanced because it is based on Glancing things to death, anyway, and has the volume to do it, and Skyfire still helps against Skimmers. It requires Allies for Blood Angels, but hey, there are worse things to Ally.

Unfortunately, Grav is less effective against Vehicles than Monstrous Creatures and Marine Characters, and the Centurion's Grav Cannons are far better at getting that lucky Glance than the Guns, even on Bikes.

Hmmm... thanks for the advice. I dont ´t have codex Space Marines, but I think I´ll might get it to look into those. They should be nice add to my AA weapons also. Only thing Im worried is that if its 11 armour it will get wasted (or shaken) really fast with serpent shield S7, no cover save shots, but at least it would force him to shoot that shield if those tanks would be placed in a good cover. How many shots does it fire and with what strenght? Whats the range?

Totaly agree with you about Grav guns.

[ShadowcatX]

First off, don't fire melta weapons at wave serpents with their shields up unless it is from the back where the shield can't help. And if he's not firing his shields, and you still can't beat his wave serpents, nothing we can say will help you.

Second, you can't jink a grav gun hit. You can jink to avoid any glancing or penetrating hit, grav guns are neither. However, centurions are much better at this, though 2grav guns and a combi grav should be able to at least immobilize a serpent.

Third aren't legion of the damned an option with their ignores cover melta weapons?

[World Of Pain]

First off, don't fire melta weapons at wave serpents with their shields up unless it is from the back where the shield can't help. And if he's not firing his shields, and you still can't beat his wave serpents, nothing we can say will help you.

Second, you can't jink a grav gun hit. You can jink to avoid any glancing or penetrating hit, grav guns are neither. However, centurions are much better at this, though 2grav guns and a combi grav should be able to at least immobilize a serpent.

Third aren't legion of the damned an option with their ignores cover melta weapons?

Basic Rule Book p. 167 "JINK. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until..."
Basic Rule Book p. 77 "Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets. If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing hit, a penetrating hit, or is otherwise hit By an enemy shooting attack that inflicts damage upon it (such as being hit by a wapon with the Gravitation special rule. pg 164), it must take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehcile model would do against a Wound..."

Dont´t remember page or wording of those Eldar vehicle upgrade that grants it +1 to cover saves.

Good point if you people also think that there really is not anything effective against those shields. This means that I don´t need to think about it so much. Like a said it really wasn´t any problem for me before (because of the Vanguard Vets) and right now I just cant play for a win anymore.

[Gleipnir]

Basic Rule Book p. 167 "JINK. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until..."
Basic Rule Book p. 77 "Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets. If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing hit, a penetrating hit, or is otherwise hit By an enemy shooting attack that inflicts damage upon it (such as being hit by a wapon with the Gravitation special rule. pg 164), it must take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehcile model would do against a Wound..."

Dont´t remember page or wording of those Eldar vehicle upgrade that grants it +1 to cover saves.

Good point if you people also think that there really is not anything effective against those shields. This means that I don´t need to think about it so much. Like a said it really wasn´t any problem for me before (because of the Vanguard Vets) and right now I just cant play for a win anymore.

You can't play with Vanguard Vet's why? I've already told you how you can get your charge after Deep Strike back, hell you don't even have to use Vanguard Vets to do it anymore you can do it with basic Assault Marines in a squad of 5 w/ 2 special weapons now. At 2500 points you could have thrown together a list of no less than 7 squads of Deep Striking Furious Charging same turn they arrive Assault squads, all with Red Thirst, Jet Bikes and Wave Serpent mobility is moot with that. As others have said you have to learn to play with the strength of the codex you have instead of trying to force a 5th edition army build to work the same in 7th edition with different rules.

[Charistoph]

Hmmm... thanks for the advice. I dont ´t have codex Space Marines, but I think I´ll might get it to look into those. They should be nice add to my AA weapons also. Only thing Im worried is that if its 11 armour it will get wasted (or shaken) really fast with serpent shield S7, no cover save shots, but at least it would force him to shoot that shield if those tanks would be placed in a good cover. How many shots does it fire and with what strenght? Whats the range?

They are basically four Autocannons mashed together, which twin-links them and doubles their rate of fire, so they can cover the field rather well. The Hydra can be bought in Squadrons, so you can get three for the slot of the one Stalker. The Stalker can trade BS 4 for BS 2 and Twin-Linked to shoot at two targets as well, so there are trade offs.

[World Of Pain]

You can't play with Vanguard Vet's why? I've already told you how you can get your charge after Deep Strike back, hell you don't even have to use Vanguard Vets to do it anymore you can do it with basic Assault Marines in a squad of 5 w/ 2 special weapons now. At 2500 points you could have thrown together a list of no less than 7 squads of Deep Striking Furious Charging same turn they arrive Assault squads, all with Red Thirst, Jet Bikes and Wave Serpent mobility is moot with that. As others have said you have to learn to play with the strength of the codex you have instead of trying to force a 5th edition army build to work the same in 7th edition with different rules.

No, no, no! I didn´t say that I cant play with Vang Vets - I said that against Wave Serpents nobody really has anything (reliable) to counter them. So if I see two or more of them in a game I need to understand to forget about winning and just play it for fluff. In my reasent experience with 7th edition codex BA, codex GK and codex AM you get your *** kicked around with wave serpent - wright knight - warwalker army.

I don´t have that spearhead formation data yet, but Im goint to look for it and try to find some answers from there. I do thank you for that info!

About forcing 5th edition army to work... my issue is that I was playing really ok with 5th edition codex vs. Eldar 6th edition. Right now Im forced to fight with this 7th edition vs. that same 6th edition codex and I felt unable to counter those serpents. Just needed info that is there any other ideas / tactics / units to do it. Result from this post is starting to be that there really isn´t anything else exept that spearhead you told me about.

[Haighus]

It is a pity that BA cannot get Land Speeder Storms, because 5 BA scouts can cause 3 HP of damage on the charge when armed with close combat weapons and bolt pistol (3 attacks each at S5 with Furious Charge) on average. That is against AV10, which is what the Wave Serpent (and all Eldar vehicles in the Codex) have on their rear. All for 55pts. The problem is delivering the cheap sacrificial scouts to the Serpents to take them out- Land Speeder Storms are great for this, but no good access to them. Maybe Storm Ravens would work, but by this point you may as well use Assault Marines or Tacticals for the same purpose.

[Venomlust]

Relic Sicaran is an option for Blood Angels, I think. 140 points for AV13 fast vehicle with S7 ignores jink shots. Limit 1 per army unless you have a specific HQ in your army like a techmarine or something. That's the cost for the Chaos version, anyway. The loyalist version probably has power of the machine spirit.

Probably in imperial armour of the astartes, forget the number.

[DarkLink]

It doesn't have a number. Just warmachines of the adeptus astartes.

[Haighus]

It does have a number: Imperial Armour Volume 2, Second Edition: Warmachines of the Adeptus Astartes.

Ok, so a Sicaran is likely to do about 2 HP of damage to a Wave Serpent in one turn, however, if you upgrade it with the Battle of Mars Legacy of Glory, which gives it Tank Hunters, +1BS against Daemonforged vehicles and 4+ Sv against Haywire attacks (for 25) then it averages about 3 HPs a volley, with extra Haywire protection. All you need then is something to take out the Wraith-beasties, and maybe the Crimson Hunter and the Sicarans are fairly invulnerable as Fast vehicles at AV13.

[DarkLink]

Ah, that's right. Forgeworld's numbering is all jacked up anyway, though.

[Lost Vyper]

Tomorrow, new 2500p match Eldar vs. GK + friends, let´s see what happens!

[Lost Vyper]

So, the 3 x Storm Raven formation works in larger games (2500p+) just nicely...Vanguard Veterans dusted off Walkers and the air superiority was crucial (3 fliers vs. 1). It was also nice to notice, that the one Dred, who came to play, did jacks***. More bodies for BA won the game today. All tactical squads alive in the end and two fliers. Maelstrom was Primary, if it had ended on turn 5, Eldar would have won, but it went to turn 6 and all i had left was the flier with one HP...Secondary was KP´s, which the BA took with authority. Tertiary, Eldar 1, BA 3. Asurmen got the only good WLT (re-roll one´s in saving throws) and he carried himself all along to turn 6, where Dante (the chickens***, fought one challenge, then later on send sgt to do the dying :)) finally took the last wound off him...Didn´t have the optimum list today (thought i was going to face GK+allies) and dice was against me a bit (together Wraithknight 6 wounds --> not a single 4+ = dead, turn 1 + WW´s 6 HP´s, 5/6 HP´s, not a single 5+), but i gotta say, if you like the "assaulty BA", this formation is for you. Next week, we will start the 1500p testgames and batreps will be filmed, first opponent, the Orks!

- Lost Vyper