GW EOY 2014 Investor Statements

[40kGamer]

So GW is telegraphing a profit drop for the upcoming report. (Not a true loss just a drop)


Trading statement
DECEMBER 8, 2014 · OTHER, RNS, TRADING STATEMENTS
Games Workshop Group PLC announces that trading in the six months to 30 November 2014 at constant currency has been broadly in line with the Board’s expectations and 2013/14 first half performance.

The Company has been exposed to the continuing strength of sterling, particularly against the US dollar and euro in the period reported. The adverse impact in the six months to 30 November 2014 will result in operating profit at actual rates being approximately £1 million lower than 2013/14 first half performance.

The Company’s half yearly report for the six months to 30 November 2014 will be released on 14 January 2015.


With this info in hand we can also expect another fairly significant drop in revenue. So for those inclined to place wagers.... do you think we'll see a comparative revenue drop over/under 10%? Just 4 weeks until the half year reports drop.

In other news, they also just announced that a new finance director has been appointed for 2015. Looks like they are still restructuring their executive lineup for the new year.

Appointment of finance director
DECEMBER 17, 2014 · OTHER, RNS
The Board of Games Workshop is pleased to announce the appointment of Rachel Tongue as Group Finance Director with effect from 1 January 2015.

Rachel, 43, is a chartered accountant and chartered tax adviser and joined Games Workshop in 1996. She is currently Company Secretary and Legal and Compliance Manager.

Rachel and her husband hold 8,000 Games Workshop ordinary shares. There are no further details required to be disclosed relating to Rachel Frances Tongue under 9.6.13R of the Listing Rules of the UK Listing Authority.

[Denzark]

I'll just hold this space for someone who wants to say:

1. GW is failing.

2. Hasbro are about to take over.

3. If GW took 25% off the price of Landraiders I'd buy 17.6 a month.

[40kGamer]

I'll just hold this space for someone who wants to say:

1. GW is failing.

2. Hasbro are about to take over.

3. If GW took 25% off the price of Landraiders I'd buy 17.6 a month.

ROFL! The currency shift has been pretty dramatic over the last few months so it's going to make for an interesting report. I'm really excited to see if we can get a baseline on Fantasy Flight in a couple of months when their new parent company reports come out for 2014.

[Caitsidhe]

Hrm. I think it is a red herring to try and blame a decline entirely on currency exchange. They have just released a bunch of new product (all that End Times Stuff in addition to all the 40K releases) and we are in the heaviest shopping period of the year. That ALONE should have at least held them steady. For most companies this time of year is a bump. Garbage in and garbage out. Lying to their investors is not going to fool anyone.

[Erik Setzer]

I'll just hold this space for someone who wants to say:
1. GW is failing.
2. Hasbro are about to take over.
3. If GW took 25% off the price of Landraiders I'd buy 17.6 a month.

I won't say GW is dying, or that Hasbro will take over... but they are currently failing at what a company's supposed to do: Make money. Their sales keep dropping despite the release of more and more expensive products that seems to be in high demand. That's a really, really bad sign. I wish I could see serious numbers breaking down what's being sold, but if I had to guess, I'd bet that most of their sales are going to entrenched customers who are too bought-in to leave the hobby cold turkey, and there's dwindling numbers of new entrants, which is not a good sign.

You're mocking people on the price point, but it's true that a lot of stuff isn't selling just based on price. I know people who would love to run Witch Elves in their Elf armies (whether pure Dark Elf or mixed), but are turned off by the insane price point. No one will buy Blood Knights because they're $100 for five models (and the rules certainly don't justify that). A flat cut wouldn't help, they need to actually take a solid look at their ranges and adjust prices across the board. In most cases, that's a cut, yes. Find the sweet spot where you hit a price that people will start picking up more items.

They've done the work for us in dismantling most of the arguments in favor of their pricing scheme. Claims of the cost of material or the work involved don't work when comparable boxes are half the price. Similarly, defense of the price of hardback sets vanishes when you see a softcover set with no slip cover released for minor savings ($66 as opposed to $74, for example). And given that other companies - let's be kind and skip something like D&D where the volume can be much higher, and rather just look at other miniatures game companies - can sell books that are bigger, equal or better quality, and yet noticeably cheaper... Yeah, that's a problem. It also is stupid from a marketing point, because the rules are the reason people buy the models, not vice-versa, so you want the rules to be pretty cheap and accessible in order to get more people to buy them, which will lead them to then buy more models. The books should be a gateway, with minimal profit (but still some profit), being used to push people to the higher-profit miniatures lines.

There's other areas that they're not doing so well. Product quality went into the toilet in recent years with Finecast. I was already annoyed at my poor Liche Priest's staff warping, but a guy recently pulled out his Bretonnians to play some games to get back into WFB, and several of them had warped lances and other pieces that are seriously out of shape. It's not like this stuff is being left in brutal heat or anything. No one leaves their models in their car for long periods. But just the regular Florida heat is enough to ruin Finecast models. You shouldn't have to keep straightening models, especially after they're painted and doing so could damage the paint job.

But hey, they're doing fine, right? Profits continue to drop, revenue continues to drop even as they push out another edition of their flagship game and several high-dollar products and expenses are down... Yeah, those are signs of things going just fine, and anyone who disagrees is clearly an idiot.

[Eldar_Atog]

They've done the work for us in dismantling most of the arguments in favor of their pricing scheme. Claims of the cost of material or the work involved don't work when comparable boxes are half the price. Similarly, defense of the price of hardback sets vanishes when you see a softcover set with no slip cover released for minor savings ($66 as opposed to $74, for example). And given that other companies - let's be kind and skip something like D&D where the volume can be much higher, and rather just look at other miniatures game companies - can sell books that are bigger, equal or better quality, and yet noticeably cheaper.

When you compare GW's books vs other gaming companies, are you talking about book quality or rule quality? If it is book quality, which company are you comparing them against? Gw's current set of rule books and codices are the best that I know of. The Privateer Press are cheaper but they only have softback books and they are not quite as nice.

Now, if you are comparing rule quality.. I am right there with you. PP's rules are better written and more affordable than GW. I also like the fact that PP provides a card with the model's rules in the box. The army book is not a mandatory purchase.. just the main rulebook and the models. It's a small gesture but it's so rare to find a company lately that doesn't try to leech every single dollar from you.

[Caitsidhe]

It all comes down to use. When CDs first came out (and DVDs later) sales of them did not take off until they dropped the price of the players through the floor. Then the format exploded. If you want to sell models, you need cheap, effective rules. That's the golden ticket. They need to make a tight rules set (not spam books) and effectively make it a loss leader. They need to get back into Tournament support and sponsorship, and thereby put themselves in the driver's seat to say that only their own product gets used.

Right now they are just accelerating their own problem. Ever increasing prices of models drives people to conversions and other suppliers. Ever increasing costs for rules (and spamming books) just drives people into piracy. This is, of course, the people who don't switch games instead. It is almost as if Games Workshop tries to do the absolute worst possible thing it can to its own sales.

[Eldar_Atog]

It all comes down to use. When CDs first came out (and DVDs later) sales of them did not take off until they dropped the price of the players through the floor. Then the format exploded. If you want to sell models, you need cheap, effective rules. That's the golden ticket.

This analogy only works for new players though. If the price point for the rules is too high, that dissuades the person from the initial investment. I usually try to encourage other hobbies/companies to people that can't afford the initial investment. Everything (not just gaming) is so expensive now. I hate to see people saddle themselves with debt for a hobby.

For the older players, the rules might be the only purchase they make in a year. For them, it's a different situation. It becomes an internal debate about how important the hobby is to them vs how much they have invested. For the person that has invested 2K+ in this hobby, a expensive rule book is just the cost of doing business. GW has been counting on this fact for a long time.

[Psychosplodge]

3. If GW took 25% off the price of Landraiders I'd buy 17.6 a month.

If GW took 25% of the price of the Land Raider I'd buy 25% more Landraiders annually.

[Mr Mystery]

This analogy only works for new players though. If the price point for the rules is too high, that dissuades the person from the initial investment. I usually try to encourage other hobbies/companies to people that can't afford the initial investment. Everything (not just gaming) is so expensive now. I hate to see people saddle themselves with debt for a hobby.

For the older players, the rules might be the only purchase they make in a year. For them, it's a different situation. It becomes an internal debate about how important the hobby is to them vs how much they have invested. For the person that has invested 2K+ in this hobby, a expensive rule book is just the cost of doing business. GW has been counting on this fact for a long time.

DVDs in particular benefitted from being a significant step up in quality from VHS, and 'back door' proliferation via the PS2 and X-Box - people bought the consoles, wound up with a DVD player by happenstance, and so started buying the DVDs. Soon as that happened, noticably higher quality was, you know, noticed.

Blu-Ray hasn't done quite as well because the leap in quality isn't so noticable unless you have a home cinema type situation, and even then it's not all that. Though yes, I do have a 3D telly and Blu-Ray for it, because I'm a tart.

[Path Walker]

I won't say GW is dying, or that Hasbro will take over... but they are currently failing at what a company's supposed to do: Make money. Their sales keep dropping despite the release of more and more expensive products that seems to be in high demand. That's a really, really bad sign. I wish I could see serious numbers breaking down what's being sold, but if I had to guess, I'd bet that most of their sales are going to entrenched customers who are too bought-in to leave the hobby cold turkey, and there's dwindling numbers of new entrants, which is not a good sign.

You're mocking people on the price point, but it's true that a lot of stuff isn't selling just based on price. I know people who would love to run Witch Elves in their Elf armies (whether pure Dark Elf or mixed), but are turned off by the insane price point. No one will buy Blood Knights because they're $100 for five models (and the rules certainly don't justify that). A flat cut wouldn't help, they need to actually take a solid look at their ranges and adjust prices across the board. In most cases, that's a cut, yes. Find the sweet spot where you hit a price that people will start picking up more items.

They've done the work for us in dismantling most of the arguments in favor of their pricing scheme. Claims of the cost of material or the work involved don't work when comparable boxes are half the price. Similarly, defense of the price of hardback sets vanishes when you see a softcover set with no slip cover released for minor savings ($66 as opposed to $74, for example). And given that other companies - let's be kind and skip something like D&D where the volume can be much higher, and rather just look at other miniatures game companies - can sell books that are bigger, equal or better quality, and yet noticeably cheaper... Yeah, that's a problem. It also is stupid from a marketing point, because the rules are the reason people buy the models, not vice-versa, so you want the rules to be pretty cheap and accessible in order to get more people to buy them, which will lead them to then buy more models. The books should be a gateway, with minimal profit (but still some profit), being used to push people to the higher-profit miniatures lines.

There's other areas that they're not doing so well. Product quality went into the toilet in recent years with Finecast. I was already annoyed at my poor Liche Priest's staff warping, but a guy recently pulled out his Bretonnians to play some games to get back into WFB, and several of them had warped lances and other pieces that are seriously out of shape. It's not like this stuff is being left in brutal heat or anything. No one leaves their models in their car for long periods. But just the regular Florida heat is enough to ruin Finecast models. You shouldn't have to keep straightening models, especially after they're painted and doing so could damage the paint job.

But hey, they're doing fine, right? Profits continue to drop, revenue continues to drop even as they push out another edition of their flagship game and several high-dollar products and expenses are down... Yeah, those are signs of things going just fine, and anyone who disagrees is clearly an idiot.

Are you aware of the concept of brevity?

[Psychosplodge]

Are you aware of the concept of brevity?

Based on previous posts I'd suggest not.

[Caitsidhe]

Are you aware of the concept of brevity?

If you want brevity, go to twitter. :D This is a forum. You can also ignore any poster you like. You could debate him on the points he makes rather than trying to attack him all passive aggressive. Is that brief enough for you? :D

[Psychosplodge]

We have the same identical thread more or less though every results don't we Caitsidhe? Profits are down but still profitable. no one agrees what that actually means. then someone says something offensive and the name calling starts till the thread gets locked?

[Mr Mystery]

I think he's also somewhat over looking the base costs of infrastructure - something no other Wargames manufacturer has to the same degree.

GW Stores guarantee anyone starting the wargames hobby in them are instead starting the GW take on that hobby. All nicely branded and available in store, and if it's not, easily shipped to same store for free.

All the others have to take their chances with FLGS. Not necessarily a bad thing, but far riskier. All it takes is for the owner/manager to not particularly enjoy a given game, and it won't sell as well, because the promotion of said game won't be there.

Yes, Inifinity, Malifaux and Warmahordes are all cheaper to start. Of course they are. They're a game of smaller scale. Let's take X-Wing as a good example. Never a need to buy a rulebook, just ships. And those ships are anywhere from £10 (sourced online) to £75 for the CR-90. And I get all I need with each ship. ACE! Except....except, well, I'm just about spent out. The only ships I don't currently own? Rebel Transport and Imperial Shuttle - just haven't got around to those yet, and the Millenium Falcon and Slave-1, because I can't get hold of them at a sensible price until the reprints are in-store. And I spent a lot on that this year. Well, I say year, I should say 4 or 5 months. But once I have one of every big ship and two of every little ship? What then? I won't need much more stuff. Oh and FFG are cunning. Ships are cheap, and you only need a few for a playable collection. Except, and here's the rub - you feel compelled to keep up with the releases because each new ship introduces new cards, cards which could benefit your favoured strategy or tactics....Can't buy them separately after all - but gotta have them.

Warmahords - Gets expensive quick as well. Why? Small scale games only require a few models. But with small amounts comes ennui. Same list, same tactics, same strategy. I'll just add X to shake it up. And you know what would compliment X? Y. Best get Y. Oh and go on then, Z as well. Why not? Boof. Before you know it, you're spending just as much on models as you do with GW.

Nothing wrong with any of that. Nice models are nice, and if they tickle your fancy, why not go for them?

What do these games have in common? Other than miniatures and dice and rulebooks and that? Simple. Not one of them, not one, is run for the benefit of the players. They're all out equally to make as much money as they can. So why GW get singled out I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps it the Microsoft affect, where Big = Bad, because reasons. Never mind that GW aren't actually capable of putting a competently run FLGS out of business by moving in next door. Why? GW Stores can't sell at a discount. FLGS are free to charge whatever they like. So it's not as if they can be undercut. Sad truth here - many FLGS aren't all that well run. Many pop up, most fall, simply because the person or persons running it think it'll be fun to make their hobby their income. They think it'll be a great wheeze and doddle. But it's not. It's flipping hard to run a successful business, especially in the early years.

[Caitsidhe]

We have the same identical thread more or less though every results don't we Caitsidhe? Profits are down but still profitable. no one agrees what that actually means. then someone says something offensive and the name calling starts till the thread gets locked?

They are the same debate; I agree there. However, they aren't identical and different issues do get raised. The silly name calling and so on rests entirely on a specific few (including the one who wanted brevity). The very fact that the debate flares up over and over again is indicative in and of itself. It is a good discussion to have. The issues brought up in this thread are interesting. We have kind of glossed over the fact that despite decreasing revenues, Games Workshop continues to promote from within rather than bring in new talent. This is instructive because it bears on two things:

1. A business culture within a bubble
2. An unwillingness to let outsiders see the books, i.e. the real books

The new head of financials was the company secretary. She already knows everything they do, how they do it, and why they do it. No revelations to an "outsider" need be made. They aren't going to get told anything they don't want to hear. More concerning than yet another dip in sales revenue is the fact that the continuing shake up seems to be making the company more insular.

[Psychosplodge]

I'll agree that's a bad thing. Nothing goes well in a company where the people making the decisions are surrounded by yes men, and if that's what is happening it isn't a good sign for the longterm. I personally hope you're wrong on that score, cause I like most of the setting. But it doesn't look ideal.

[Mr Mystery]

Outsiders - you mean like independantly verified books, which is a requirement of UK law yes?

Oh of course, how silly of me. Let's not bring irritating facts to pop bizarre little theories.

You want to know more about how GW is run - buy some shares. They're publically traded.

And is it more insular? Or is it a case of right person for the right job? Have you seen the new people's CVs and covering letters? Or those of the others who went for the roles? Because if you have, please do enlighten us.

[Caitsidhe]

What do these games have in common? Other than miniatures and dice and rulebooks and that? Simple. Not one of them, not one, is run for the benefit of the players. They're all out equally to make as much money as they can. So why GW get singled out I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps it the Microsoft affect, where Big = Bad, because reasons. Never mind that GW aren't actually capable of putting a competently run FLGS out of business by moving in next door. Why? GW Stores can't sell at a discount. FLGS are free to charge whatever they like. So it's not as if they can be undercut. Sad truth here - many FLGS aren't all that well run. Many pop up, most fall, simply because the person or persons running it think it'll be fun to make their hobby their income. They think it'll be a great wheeze and doddle. But it's not. It's flipping hard to run a successful business, especially in the early years.

Heh. While I agree there are a lot of fly by night gaming stores, there are also plenty that not only stand the test of time, they branch out and have multiple successful locations. Dragon's Lair down in San Antonio and Austin, Texas are a good example. This is a very successful company, solvent. I can point out, however, that they do not offer any discounts undercutting Games Workshop.

They are more successful than a Games Workshop store for several key reasons:

1. Diversity of product. American shoppers, at least, like being able to get all their gamer/geek needs in one store. Most gaming stores carry a vast array of products.

2. Dragon's Lair provides MASSIVE gaming areas and support for all the games it carries. Unlike Games Workshop which attempts to get by in as little space as possible, Dragon's Lair goes out of its way to provide lots of tables, rooms, and support terrain, and even game materials for people to proxy and try out. They understand that selling games and figure is tied to there being a community of players. Help that community thrive and you have a customer base. :D

3. They don't hard sell anything. If you ask them questions they will answer. Beyond that, they let you do the browsing. They rely on variety and convenience for their customers to be their sales pitch. It appears to work. :D

In short, most of the successful, large gaming stores seem to employ an approach that is 100% the OPPOSITE of Games Workshop. I am not trying to be cheeky in suggesting that perhaps Games Workshop should study their brick and mortar competition, or at least study the successful ones? :D

[Mr Mystery]

Which isn't far from my point.

Many accuse GW of muscling out the little man - when they have little reason or capacity to actually do so.

Well run FLGS, like any well run business, and barring any disasters (flooding and insurance welching on you, that kind of thing) won't be damaged over much by competition. Particularly FLGS, because they can offer stuff a GW store can't.

GW stores however, for the wider company, can be used a sort of loss leader. In the right places, they help people see about the hobby. I don't know much about the US, mostly because I don't live there, so can't comment much further with any accuracy.

If GW moves to town, and your FLGS goes under, don't go blaming GW for it. If you don't have customer loyalty in any business, you don't have much business.

[Caitsidhe]

Outsiders - you mean like independantly verified books, which is a requirement of UK law yes? Oh of course, how silly of me. Let's not bring irritating facts to pop bizarre little theories.

You and I both know that presentation is everything. There are the books and there are the books. :D Simple accounting tricks (and all very legal) are utilized to spin things. A good example is an odd announcement like we got last year to try and soften the blow of reduced profits. That was an example of poorly done spin. This year we have an example of well-done spin. :D Attempting to link yet another drop in profits to currency exchange.


You want to know more about how GW is run - buy some shares. They're publically traded.

First, you assume I don't have some shares. Second, you are being cagey again because both you and I know that owning some shares doesn't automatically make you privy to everything. :D


And is it more insular? Or is it a case of right person for the right job? Have you seen the new people's CVs and covering letters? Or those of the others who went for the roles? Because if you have, please do enlighten us.

It isn't a case of the right person for the job. This is a company whose profits are falling. Most businesses in a situation like this bring in new blood. They do this for a very good reason, i.e. business culture tends to get stuck in feedback loops. It becomes bubble culture. It is the business version of inbreeding. It has the same long term effects. This isn't a question of qualifications. It is a question of perception, both internal and external. Games Workshop is going against the grain of well-known practices used to deal with these kinds of problems.

[Mr Mystery]

So are you saying GW are cooking the books? If so - why, and based on what evidence?

Keep buying shares, buy out company. You get the shareholders report I assume? The same one that is also independently verified yes, to prevent shenanigans? Profit warnings - again a legal requirement here in the UK when you won't be hitting forecasts (forecasts which are also, I believe, indepdently reviewed to make sure you're not over egging the pudding).

Are the people moving to new positions therefore unqualified? Or is there perhaps just a chance GW might know more about how they're run than you do, and thus you might be talking a load of mince dressed up as business acumen? Again.

[Caitsidhe]

Which isn't far from my point.

Yes and no. I see some validity in some of your points, but your argument is still weak.


Many accuse GW of muscling out the little man - when they have little reason or capacity to actually do so.

This is an example of a glittering generality. Define who these "many" are please? Are you talking about nameless, faceless voices quacking on the internet (like our own)? While I agree that Games Workshop has little ability to muscle out gaming stores in the United States, that isn't what they have been accused of doing at all. What most people have accused them of doing is attempting to use and abuse local gaming stores to funnels sales past the independents to themselves:

1. Reduce the things available to independent to a smaller selection, whereby a great deal will ultimately only be accessible through Games Workshop. This turns independents, more or less against their will, as samplers for Games Workshop without the ability to make long term profits on said product.

2. To carry any any Games Workshop product the independents are required to buy a minimum amount (and often of certain things) or not carry it at all. In other words, "if you won't be our sampler you won't get anything." :D

Ultimately, for a local gaming store to carry Games Workshop products, it must make long term profits by doing so. Games Workshop has a tricky problem. They would prefer, ultimately, to sell all their own products directly and cut the independents out. They can't afford to do that yet. They see it as a process of weaning people off the independents and bringing them into those "loss leaders" over time. The process has not gone well so far. In America, at least, it is simply irritating the independent stores who aren't actually all run by morons. Most of them know exactly what is going on. It also irritates American customers who LIKE their local gaming stores and support them out of loyalty. American gamers are not brand loyal. They are business loyal. Again, if Games Workshop doesn't care about the American market... i.e. considers them an acceptable loss... their current course of actions make perfect sense.

[40kGamer]

When you compare GW's books vs other gaming companies, are you talking about book quality or rule quality? If it is book quality, which company are you comparing them against?

Off the top of my head I find the book quality for Infinity, Eden and Dark Age to be comparable in print quality. GW used to win the artwork by a landslide but the new codex format is pimping models through crappy photos rather than concept art so I'm no longer impressed... and for rules quality you can truly take your pick.

[Caitsidhe]

So are you saying GW are cooking the books? If so - why, and based on what evidence?

I said they are spinning the information and I suggested they are doing it through entirely legal means. Legal and ethical aren't the same thing, and for that matter it isn't wise either. They will only be able to fire so many people, cut so many corners, and spin things for so long. It is like kiting a check. Eventually that back building wave of trouble becomes a tsunami. As to my "evidence" I have never claimed to have looked at the books. I have never claimed to do anything but give my opinion based on the evidence we see, i.e. reading between the lines. There is nothing particularly difficult here to detect either. You know that as well as I do. Countless businesses have been down this road. We have seen it time and time again. The telltale signs are well known. I suppose it is "possible" that Games Workshop is somehow not going through the same things we have seen other companies displaying these symptoms before. I just consider that unlikely. I play the odds. When you see certain indicators, it is wise to bet with them rather than against them.


Keep buying shares, buy out company. You get the shareholders report I assume? The same one that is also independently verified yes, to prevent shenanigans? Profit warnings - again a legal requirement here in the UK when you won't be hitting forecasts (forecasts which are also, I believe, indepdently reviewed to make sure you're not over egging the pudding).

The shareholder's report is no more useful than a damn brochure from a travel agent. It isn't about what they tell you, it is about how they present it. Working within the letter of the law and remaining outside the spirit of it is common practice.


Are the people moving to new positions therefore unqualified? Or is there perhaps just a chance GW might know more about how they're run than you do, and thus you might be talking a load of mince dressed up as business acumen? Again.

Given than the recently stepped back (I won't say stepped down) CEO says he doesn't even look at resumes and consider attitude far more important than anything on paper... I consider it a pretty LOW chance that Games Workshop knows what they are doing here. Well, they know what they are doing in that they don't want outside voices or opinions. That is the entire point I was making. They have decided to "double down" on the insular.

[40kGamer]

It all comes down to use. When CDs first came out (and DVDs later) sales of them did not take off until they dropped the price of the players through the floor. Then the format exploded. If you want to sell models, you need cheap, effective rules. That's the golden ticket. They need to make a tight rules set (not spam books) and effectively make it a loss leader. They need to get back into Tournament support and sponsorship, and thereby put themselves in the driver's seat to say that only their own product gets used.

While I agree with this sentiment, GW has decided they want to be the Tamiya of Fantasy/SciFi models. Why? Other than Kirby having delusions of grandeur I have no frakking idea!

[40kGamer]

This analogy only works for new players though. If the price point for the rules is too high, that dissuades the person from the initial investment. I usually try to encourage other hobbies/companies to people that can't afford the initial investment. Everything (not just gaming) is so expensive now. I hate to see people saddle themselves with debt for a hobby.

For the older players, the rules might be the only purchase they make in a year. For them, it's a different situation. It becomes an internal debate about how important the hobby is to them vs how much they have invested. For the person that has invested 2K+ in this hobby, a expensive rule book is just the cost of doing business. GW has been counting on this fact for a long time.

It's hard to pick the winning lottery numbers for what pushes models. IMO GW is passing on new players because they don't have 'any' cheap entry game into their universe. People can hop into X-wing and Infinity for pennies... then after you get hooked on the game play you can easily (and I mean easily) spend some real dollars... but you can spend dollars as you go along rather than up front. I tell new people that if they aren't willing to drop ~$1,000 US and around 1000 hours for assembly and painting then GW is NOT for them. Not to mention that after you have invested the time and money you are still going to be playing with rules that are only adequate. As an added bonus you are also now a customer of a company whose management could not care less about you.

[40kGamer]

Outsiders - you mean like independantly verified books, which is a requirement of UK law yes?

Oh of course, how silly of me. Let's not bring irritating facts to pop bizarre little theories.

You want to know more about how GW is run - buy some shares. They're publically traded.

And is it more insular? Or is it a case of right person for the right job? Have you seen the new people's CVs and covering letters? Or those of the others who went for the roles? Because if you have, please do enlighten us.

I have been an independent auditor of company books in the US and now work independently for companies as their liaison with these external auditors. Unless the UK is different, and if you look at IFRS and other common accounting practices it likely isn't, then having these external rubber stampers is not as big a deal as you may think. Some of us are paid a tremendous amount of money to make sure the outside world only knows the minimum required by law. :p

A lot of companies promote from inside as it eliminates the learning curve. The downside of this is it yields little to no innovation. It's great if your business is on the upswing and life is full of nothing but cute and fuzzy bunnies but not so much if you need to take a hard look at what you are doing.

[Psychosplodge]

My understanding is an account that signs off on fraudulent/in correct books can serve time if and when the inland revenue catchers up with the company. (I know the accountants refused to sign off our books this year until they were adjusted)

[40kGamer]

Which isn't far from my point.

Many accuse GW of muscling out the little man - when they have little reason or capacity to actually do so.

Well run FLGS, like any well run business, and barring any disasters (flooding and insurance welching on you, that kind of thing) won't be damaged over much by competition. Particularly FLGS, because they can offer stuff a GW store can't.

GW stores however, for the wider company, can be used a sort of loss leader. In the right places, they help people see about the hobby. I don't know much about the US, mostly because I don't live there, so can't comment much further with any accuracy.

If GW moves to town, and your FLGS goes under, don't go blaming GW for it. If you don't have customer loyalty in any business, you don't have much business.

Having looked at the contracts GW requires of the US FLGS, their market behavior and the way they limit stock to them I have to disagree.

First off let me say that in my market there was absolutely no reason for GW to open a store. There are two FLGS that have been up and running for 20+ years (and they move a lot of stock) as well as a few other smaller, newer hobby centers. According to the GW rep, they told the manager of one of these stores that they moved the most GW product in this state. So a skeptical person has to ask, why would GW bother opening a closet store here when this market is already very well served? Also is it a coincidence that GW suddenly started limiting a lot of stock to the FLGS after their own shop opened?

There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that GW does not willingly support FLGS and the game store managers all know this. That is why they offer GW product but they absolutely do not push it. Why would you pimp goods for a company that will happily slice your throat if the opportunity arises?

- - - Updated - - -


My understanding is an account that signs off on fraudulent/in correct books can serve time if and when the inland revenue catchers up with the company. (I know the accountants refused to sign off our books this year until they were adjusted)

They absolutely would go to jail if they sign off on something that breaks the law, but the law is not as restrictive as the average citizen may think. That's why accounting is 50% science and 50% art. There are enough completely legal ways to 'work' the numbers. if there wasn't companies could hire any old accounting graduate to run their books, but the big dollars goes to those who can make the books sing and dance while staying completely within the boundaries of the law. It's actually a lot of fun... it sure beats tax accounting which just makes you want to shoot yourself! :p

[Erik Setzer]

This analogy only works for new players though. If the price point for the rules is too high, that dissuades the person from the initial investment. I usually try to encourage other hobbies/companies to people that can't afford the initial investment. Everything (not just gaming) is so expensive now. I hate to see people saddle themselves with debt for a hobby.

For the older players, the rules might be the only purchase they make in a year. For them, it's a different situation. It becomes an internal debate about how important the hobby is to them vs how much they have invested. For the person that has invested 2K+ in this hobby, a expensive rule book is just the cost of doing business. GW has been counting on this fact for a long time.

Well, give what the sales are like, I think the new places are the issue. Look at the releases in the last year and a half, just the highlights:

- New edition of flagship game (40K)
- New edition of army rules for flagship army (Space Marines)
- Imperial Knights
- Replacement codices
- End Times and all those new models

Their limited runs are selling out, which means people are buying them, and those things aren't cheap, and ditto for most of what I listed there. And yet, their revenues are down, which means sales volume is down in a big way. That suggests that the main people buying GW stuff are the "veteran" players who haven't yet left the hobby behind because, well, a lot of us have spent at least a thousand dollars on models we don't want to have to just give up the use of (or make up a new system to use, without getting sued by GW).

That's not sustainable, though. Eventually, more people will just give up and move on. If the price point is too high for new players to enter at a rate that can more than make up for those leaving (or at the very least make up for them), then the sales will continue to drop, and profit's going to start turning to losses.

The barrier to entry needs to be significantly lowered, especially if they're going to make it expensive once people get in the door.

[40kGamer]

And don't get me started on the accounting tricks that open up when you are a multi-national company. Oh my God! I get so excited I could do a cartwheel just thinking about the legal shenanigans this type of business structure offers up! Damn, this place needs a dancing emotie! ;)

[Erik Setzer]

Are you aware of the concept of brevity?

Very much so. I realize, however, that you aren't aware of the concept of making a point clearly, because you are incapable of rational or reasonable discussion, relying instead on being offensive.

If you have something useful to add (extremely unlikely, yes, we know), do so. Otherwise, how's this for brevity: Sit down and STFU.

[Erik Setzer]

Which isn't far from my point.

Many accuse GW of muscling out the little man - when they have little reason or capacity to actually do so.

Well run FLGS, like any well run business, and barring any disasters (flooding and insurance welching on you, that kind of thing) won't be damaged over much by competition. Particularly FLGS, because they can offer stuff a GW store can't.

GW stores however, for the wider company, can be used a sort of loss leader. In the right places, they help people see about the hobby. I don't know much about the US, mostly because I don't live there, so can't comment much further with any accuracy.

If GW moves to town, and your FLGS goes under, don't go blaming GW for it. If you don't have customer loyalty in any business, you don't have much business.

Well, GW tries to "muscle out the little man" with GW products... and that's just plain stupid (actually, skips right past stupid to "freaking insane"). They've limited what any non-GW source can get to a ridiculous degree, forcing you to order items directly from them. They might think that's clever, but I know some store owners who've gotten annoyed by it and just put other stuff in better positions in the store because there's no point in promoting a game system that they can't make money off of.

The whole deal with their stores becomes weirder when you see all the licensed products for Warhammer and 40K, and they even promote them in White Dwarf, but you can't buy them or play those games in a GW store. You have to have a FLGS nearby (fun side note, we have a store literally named "FLGS" in town). If you go to those stores, you can't buy much GW stuff. They're competing with their own licensed products, and that makes no sense. Either embrace those products, or stop licensing so many of them. That's why I don't buy those games, I tend to play in a GW store (because they plopped one down right beside my neighborhood), so I can't play them unless I'm playing away from the store with friends. And if I'm not playing at a store, I don't have much reason to spend money there.

Those are the kind of decisions that make me wonder what is wrong with the people running GW. They could easily make a deal to get a larger cut for any licensed products sold in their store (assuming they need more of one), and then they have a wider selection of products in their store. It's a win-win. You can't act like you're an exclusive brand and then license your name and labels to be put on several lines of products.

[Path Walker]

Very much so. I realize, however, that you aren't aware of the concept of making a point clearly, because you are incapable of rational or reasonable discussion, relying instead on being offensive.

If you have something useful to add (extremely unlikely, yes, we know), do so. Otherwise, how's this for brevity: Sit down and STFU.

You really are struggling with the core concept here.

[Erik Setzer]

You really are struggling with the core concept here.

Not at all. You, however, are struggling with figuring out how not to be an offensive prick, and how to hold a decent conversation. You have nothing useful to add, you haven't the reading comprehension to read more than 140 characters, kindly bugger off to Twitter and stop whining that I use too many big words for you.

[Caitsidhe]

It would be better if both of you kept your tempers and stayed on topic. Mr. Mystery and I don't agree on much of anything but we can debate in a civilized manner. If we can do it, so can both of you. :D

[Eldar_Atog]

Off the top of my head I find the book quality for Infinity, Eden and Dark Age to be comparable in print quality. GW used to win the artwork by a landslide but the new codex format is pimping models through crappy photos rather than concept art so I'm no longer impressed... and for rules quality you can truly take your pick.

Thanks! I was curious which books he was talking about.

Yeah, I much preferred when the GW books had concept art instead of pictures of the actual models (not talking about the modeling/painting section). It kills the fantasy for me. Of course, I can blame this on me just getting older and a bit on the bitter side.

[Caitsidhe]

Photographs are cheaper for them. They can take more and more pictures of the same models and recycle them over and over again in books. I agree that it is less interesting and reduces the books to nothing more than really expensive catalogs. Eh.

[40kGamer]

It reminds me of how White Dwarf morphed from a fan magazine into an expensive monthly sales catalog over the years. The photos are great in the paint scheme section but the concept art was far more inspirational in the unit entries. And I do realize that lately I am being a bit of a grognard where GW is concerned. The inevitable result of loving the IP while hating the corporate behavior.

[Eldar_Atog]

And I do realize that lately I am being a bit of a grognard where GW is concerned. The inevitable result of loving the IP while hating the corporate behavior.

I don't think that is something out of the ordinary. If you performed a poll, you'd find that most people like the game and the IP but don't have a lot of love for the company. With a very few notable exceptions (Space X, Tesla, etc), loving a corporate entity is a very strange concept to me. There are very few that seem to want to make a positive difference in people's lives.

[Erik Setzer]

I don't think that is something out of the ordinary. If you performed a poll, you'd find that most people like the game and the IP but don't have a lot of love for the company. With a very few notable exceptions (Space X, Tesla, etc), loving a corporate entity is a very strange concept to me. There are very few that seem to want to make a positive difference in people's lives.

Well, to be honest... companies don't necessarily exist to make a positive difference in folk's lives. They exist to make money.

That said, you do so by fostering good relationships with people. You might not be able to improve their lives, but you can at least try not to make their lives worse in the process of selling them stuff.

[40kGamer]

I don't think that is something out of the ordinary. If you performed a poll, you'd find that most people like the game and the IP but don't have a lot of love for the company. With a very few notable exceptions (Space X, Tesla, etc), loving a corporate entity is a very strange concept to me. There are very few that seem to want to make a positive difference in people's lives.

Have to agree that 'love' is a difficult concept with companies cause they do what they do, which is pimp product to make a profit. However most of them manage to do it while staying neutral to positive in the community. IMO it takes effort to generate animosity. Consider FFG. They suck at keeping their product in stock and they often completely miss their announced release dates. Both of these things are highly annoying for customers but somehow the overall 'tone' of customers with FFG is neutral to positive. GW does a really good job with customer service but everywhere I have been in the states the overall tone (toward the company not the IP) is negative.

[Eldar_Atog]

Well, to be honest... companies don't necessarily exist to make a positive difference in folk's lives. They exist to make money.


True. There are a few companies that seem to have been created with the mindset of "We can make a nice profit doing this and do something positive". I can get behind that concept. The people that treat companies like their sport team really confuse me.

[Charon]

Well, to be honest... companies don't necessarily exist to make a positive difference in folk's lives. They exist to make money.



While this is true to an extent, a company that does not contribute to a positive experience in their customers life will not be able to make money in the long run.

Actually it does take quite an efford to get a permanent negative image in the hobby industry (hello EA!).

[Caitsidhe]

I think the game culture, i.e. where and with whom we play is the key difference. Games Workshop's actions might support their British players fine (I don't know) but they are downright disruptive and destructive of the gaming community over here. They are literally making it harder and more difficult to play the game in the convenient manner to which we are accustomed. The question is who will give....

1. Will the American market totally revamp how and with whom they play or
2. Will they simply switch to games which match their gaming culture?

It is a rhetorical question because we all know the answer. Americans, for better or for worst, feel that merchants should cater to them, not the other way around. Their view is that if a particular merchant doesn't fulfill their needs, another one will. Whether you agree with this mindset or not is irrelevant. It is the dominant paradigm here. Fighting against it is a losing proposition because you won't wean Americans off their local gaming store. You won't overcome decades and decades of choice and have them go for brand loyalty. More to the point, Americans don't generally form clubs, put together clubhouses, and gather to game in large groups. We don't socialize that way anymore. We go to our local gaming store because it provides us with a bit of personal space. We have a small group of friends and a large group of friendly acquaintances. Most of those people we want to game with on neutral ground.

Our local gaming stores aren't that thrilled with how Games Workshop is treating them. They aren't stupid. They know which way is up. People who own gaming stores have friends among gamers. Thus, the gaming community here gets to know how Games Workshop is treating the independents (our independents). We take it poorly. Another poster says it takes effort to build up this much animosity. I agree. What Games Workshop doesn't understand is that in America there is no difference between the gaming community by in large and the people who sell to them. You can't cut one without the other bleeding.

[40kGamer]

I think the game culture, i.e. where and with whom we play is the key difference. Games Workshop's actions might support their British players fine (I don't know) but they are downright disruptive and destructive of the gaming community over here. They are literally making it harder and more difficult to play the game in the convenient manner to which we are accustomed. The question is who will give....

1. Will the American market totally revamp how and with whom they play or
2. Will they simply switch to games which match their gaming culture?

It is a rhetorical question because we all know the answer. Americans, for better or for worst, feel that merchants should cater to them, not the other way around. Their view is that if a particular merchant doesn't fulfill their needs, another one will. Whether you agree with this mindset or not is irrelevant. It is the dominant paradigm here.

I don't consider myself fickle but I do fully believe loyalty runs both ways. If I'm going to drop a few thousand on a game system every year you better believe I want that product to cater to my needs.

Heck, our American culture is based on getting exactly what we want for our $ and the main reason new companies succeed is that they provide something the old companies could or would not.


Fighting against it is a losing proposition because you won't wean Americans off their local gaming store. You won't overcome decades and decades of choice and have them go for brand loyalty. More to the point, Americans don't generally form clubs, put together clubhouses, and gather to game in large groups. We don't socialize that way anymore. We go to our local gaming store because it provides us with a bit of personal space. We have a small group of friends and a large group of friendly acquaintances. Most of those people we want to game with on neutral ground.

This is a valid point. Every gamer I run in circles with are loyal to their FLGS over any of the manufacturers. Also the American schedule is very different. Typically work weeks are more hours and their are fewer days off so games need to fit that lifestyle. Actual planned club play? Not going to happen. The decrease in casual games is the main thing hurting GW in my area. If we can't throw out an agreed upon PV, pop together and have a good time then we'll find something else to do.


Our local gaming stores aren't that thrilled with how Games Workshop is treating them. They aren't stupid. They know which way is up. People who own gaming stores have friends among gamers. Thus, the gaming community here gets to know how Games Workshop is treating the independents (our independents). We take it poorly. Another poster says it takes effort to build up this much animosity. I agree. What Games Workshop doesn't understand is that in America there is no difference between the gaming community by in large and the people who sell to them. You can't cut one without the other bleeding.

This is very much true. I work directly with many game store owners/managers across several states and none of them have a positive view of GW business policies. And the way the game community here in states works from my experience is

> the FLGS provides a lot of table space
> which leads to a lot of community members spending time with the store management
> which leads to the community adopting store views on games

[DarkLink]

While this is true to an extent, a company that does not contribute to a positive experience in their customers life will not be able to make money in the long run.

Actually it does take quite an efford to get a permanent negative image in the hobby industry (hello EA!).

Plus, that money they make is people's livelyhoods. Their employees and stockholders have roofs over their head because the company is profitable.

[Eldar_Atog]

More to the point, Americans don't generally form clubs, put together clubhouses, and gather to game in large groups. We don't socialize that way anymore. We go to our local gaming store because it provides us with a bit of personal space. We have a small group of friends and a large group of friendly acquaintances. Most of those people we want to game with on neutral ground.


And even if we could form a club, where are we going to go while building up membership? A store owner is going to see it as a threat to his store. If the group grows big enough to rent their own space, the owner might find that their store stays empty. In the US, a empty gaming store is not a healthy gaming store.

The one man GW stores are not helping business either. The GW store does not have space to play and keeps trying to undercut the independent that has the play space. In my experience, the independent will eventually stop supporting GW and restrict/forbid the game from his store. I've had this happen to me about 6 times in the last 20 years.

The rise of board gaming in the US might also account for some of the GW's losses. They are cheaper, more portable, and not antagonistic towards store owners.

[Mr Mystery]

How are they undercutting though?

If the community want gaming space - the FLGS' can provide that. They can also provide a discount of some kind. Both of these are things beyond the control of the individual GW store. I may not be the sharpest business fish in the woodshed, but surely that's a dream come true for the FLGS owner?

As for GW's losses - we still don't know what's happening in the wider hobby, simply because the data isn't available. Apart from FFG, thanks to the recent merger/takeover/buyout thing, no other games company posts their results, because GW is the only one publically traded. GW's fortunes could well be reflecting those of the wider hobby. We just don't know. Oh sure we can speculate til the cows come home, evolve into the dominant species of earth and start eating McHuman Burgers, and worrying about Mad Human Disease (which lets face it seems to affect most of our species)

What we do know, is that GW at least appear to be the biggest fish. They provide something of a catch all service. Whilst many prefer larger scaled games, the GW rules can used for skirmish sized engagements, even without rules such as Kill Team. It may not be the most thrilling of gaming experiences (bias here for me, as I really like grand scale battles), but you can happily play 40k with the compulsories - 1HQ, 2 Troops. Yet if a more specialised gaming system comes out, with a specific aesthetic (such as Warmahordes), then those interested in that scale and that aesthetic are likely to give it a bash. I've done the same thing with X-Wing. Love Star Wars, liked the models, and having played a couple of games I like the system (though anyone Fortressing against me is going to get a lecture on spirit of the game, and not being a powergaming goon). Some might make the switch entirely, perhaps just due to personal taste, maybe through limited hobby funding. Doesn't mean GW are doing anything wrong on the larger scale of things - there's just some games out there which suit some gamers better. In short - it's incredibly easy for GW to lose customers, not because they've done something wrong or don't know what they're doing, but because a new game has come out that has captured public imagination. After all, it's easy to keep a small group of people happy. But the larger that group grows, the more dissent is going to come naturally as some field maligned or sidelined. That's just the nature of the world.

Now, look at the direction GW have taken in recent months. End Times, and 40k Campaign books. Me, I'm liking these. They're set around narrative play, rather than hardcoretournywingame. And that suits me down to the ground. I like my games to tell a story. This to me is GW setting out their stall again. They're primarily interested in providing a setting and ruleset for the telling of stories. That's their aim, and that's their preogrative, and for my money they're delivering the goods there (literally, for my money. Gone End Times crazy, and doing so in Hardback. Same with Shield of Baal)

[Caitsidhe]

@Mr. Mystery: I'm not sure why you always default back to this notion that how other games are doing matters. We aren't talking about them. They are unimportant to this discussion. Hell, Games Workshop always insists (as do many people here) that their competition doesn't matter. Ultimately, whether or not other game companies are doing poorly has no bearing (nor is it a valid excuse) for a poor performance by Games Workshop. However, I will briefly entertain the other companies since you seem to come back to them so often. If things were "tough all over" as you like to imply, saying that we just can't see it because they aren't public...

1. The number of competitors (new companies) decrease when things are tough for everyone... the opposite of what is happening right now.

2. If things were "tough all over" we would see some of the weak, smaller companies failing. That is what happens when you start up a new company in a bad market.

I think it is safe to say that all all these new, smaller companies seem to be surviving for now. That is an indicator of a healthy market and that they are stable and/or growing. Small companies must grow to survive. Only large companies can handle multiple quarters of stagnation or shrinkage. Now that we have that out of the way, let's go back to Games Workshop.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This can also expressed as, the most obvious answer is normally the correct one, or where there is smoke there is fire. We can try to come up with all sorts of elaborate reasons or excuses for their continuing drops in sales, customer animosity, treatment of independents, bubble business culture, and savage cut backs and firings within their own company, but what would be the point? All of these things are well-known indicators of a company with serious problems.

[Mr Mystery]

You say it's a poor performance, but have nothing to mark it against.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that all other manufacturers are finding things tougher than expected. If they're taking similar hits - it's not GW specifically doing poorly. If they're taking bigger hits - then GW would, by comparrison, be doing rather well.

Instead, all we get is this peculiar insistence that despite no evidence, everyone else is on the up and up and raking it in, and it's only GW who aren't.

Is it the most obvious answer? Not really, no. And yes, a straight line etc - but helps to know the lay of the land. Straight lines are well and good until a brief detour takes you to a bridge over a wide river.

The problems are there, yes. But are they actually serious and unique to GW? We don't know. Lots of small companies are popping up - but the established players like PP - who knows how they're doing. We don't is the short answer, but in order to hammer facts to support a specific position, it's widely claimed it's all Roses and no manure in their garden.

Customer animosity - from who? Seems everyone who constantly whines about GW's business practices claim not to buy anything from them ever. How does that make you a customer? Gamer, sure. There's very little making anyone use GW products to play GW games. But customer? If your opening gambit is 'I've not bought anything from you for some time' - how exactly are you a customer?

Bubble business culture - evidenced by? Treatment of independents - some say they like working with GW, some say they don't. Heaven forbid it might be a matter of personal preference. Savage cutbacks? Erm - they continue to open stores run on what they consider the most efficient business model. They're the ones with all the figures, not us. Firings? If a job role is dead weight, and not adding value to the business, it gets cut. Again, hardly an entrepeneur myself, but I understand the basics. You employ precisely as many people as you need to get the job done as efficiently as possible and with the maximum possible profit. I don't think there's a company out there in it's right mind that thinks 'wow, more profits. Best hire more people to take care of that'.

People insist GW are badly run, but never seem to have any actual experience running a business on the same scale as GW at all, let alone one with such a peculiar position of biggest fish in a very small, very niche pond.

Again - GW are not making a loss. Takings are down, but profits remain. They have no debt. They own their own infrastructure. About the only things outside their immediate control is cost of raw materials.

GW 'losing' customers to new games is ultimately inevitable. Crap anaolgy time - me and my Beer. Now, I'm a Real Ale man myself. No, not craft ale, as I don't have a ridiculous haircut, wear glasses or lumberjack shirts. It's just Real Ale to me. When I'm up the pub, my standard tipple is Harvey's Best. Pleasant brew, and fairly local (made in Lewes, about 20 milesish away). Price is also agreeable to me (well, relatively speaking). But, being a Real Ale fan, I'm easily swayed into buying a pint of something new that my local landlady has on. Sometimes, these are really, really nice. Like Oscar Wilde. Other times, they're too hoppy for me, as I prefer a malty pint. If I find a different pint more to my liking, then I'll get merrily drunk on that instead. If it becomes a regular visitor to that pub, I'll drink that over Harvey's Best (again, Oscar Wilde springs to mind. Really love that beer!). BUT - if all else fails, Harvey's remains my default, go to pint. Perhaps the other beer Yve has on aren't to my taste. Or I'm in a random pub elsewhere. If they've got Harvey's, I know where I am with it, and I'll drink that (of course, only the one if I'm driving!). Here, Harvey's Best is GW. By no means the best beer on the market, but to me a guarantee of a more than acceptable level of satisfaction. Well balanced, it's pretty much all things to all people. Hoppy enough for IPA fans, Malty enough for Stout fans.

GW offer a similar 'there'll be something about it you like' deal. Me, I'm put off Warmahordes because of the aesthetic. I'm quite anti Steampunk. I've tried the game, didn't get on with it (mostly because it's rolling 2D6 at a time. Prevents me mass rolling, which I greatly enjoy). I appreciate the rules set and what it offers, don't get me wrong, but it's just not for me. X-Wing? Covered that earlier. Groovy little game, but no less cutthroat when it comes to extracting as much money from me as possible as I keep up with the releases. But GW remain the industry benchmark. And because they're the benchmark, it's damned hard for them to adapt to each and every new game that's released. Yet in my experience (as a gamer, and three times GW employee over a 10 year period as a store mook), people often return to GW games, just as I return to Harvey's Best, time after time. It's known. It's familiar, but above all, it's actually pretty damned good. Not necessarily the best for any given person (despite it's monicker), but good.

People go on and on about the rules, yet the vapidity of rules forums kind of shows it's 40% people not actually reading the rule, 45% people not liking what is actually written, and insisting it's therefore badly written, when it's perfectly clear what happens, and 15% peculiar wording/copy past **** ups.

[AirHorse]

Companies can't grow forever. I don't get why there is so much drama when they shrink...

[Mr Mystery]

Reasons dude, reasons.

[Caitsidhe]

You say it's a poor performance, but have nothing to mark it against..

This is incorrect. It goes to the heart of the tunnel vision you are employing. I mark it against Games Workshop's past performance. That is how you measure a business. Like all competitors, they are ultimately competing against themselves, i.e. the best they themselves have ever done. Where is Games Workshop compared to where she was five years ago? They have entirely changed direction since then and have only gone DOWN. Nothing else matters.

[Mr Mystery]

Yes, they are down on the previous year.

But without knowing where the other companies in their filed are, no actual conclusion can be drawn as to the underlying reasons.

Strong GBP does affect them, as a significant part of their business is export. Yet instantly, it's a lie, because they're cooking the books, because that explanation fits the more paranoid arena of their critics. They can't possibly be telling the truth, because everyone knows they're worse than Genghis Khan (take that, Godwin's Law!) and like to kick Grannies and grill Kittens!

[Caitsidhe]

Yes, they are down on the previous year.

But without knowing where the other companies in their filed are, no actual conclusion can be drawn as to the underlying reasons.

Strong GBP does affect them, as a significant part of their business is export. Yet instantly, it's a lie, because they're cooking the books, because that explanation fits the more paranoid arena of their critics. They can't possibly be telling the truth, because everyone knows they're worse than Genghis Khan (take that, Godwin's Law!) and like to kick Grannies and grill Kittens!

Again, what the other companies are doing doesn't matter here. Games Workshop is down. They are about to be down two financial reports in a row coming off an overlapping period when they dropped new Editions and major new product while also cutting their own company expenses to the bone. Let me put that in context, firing a huge part of their workforce to cut costs didn't even manage to keep their revenues stable. That is the single BIGGEST indicator of a free fall. Normally, corporations cut to the bone to make their profits JUMP for quarterly reports. Cutting to the bone and still having a bad report means you are in deep, deep trouble. Two bad reports in a row, after you have already cut to the bone is a disaster, particularly if it is following what is normally the biggest sales season of the damn year. No matter HOW you try to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse, nobody is buying it. There is a problem. The first step to overcoming a problem is admitting you have one.

[Charon]

In short - it's incredibly easy for GW to lose customers, not because they've done something wrong or don't know what they're doing, but because a new game has come out that has captured public imagination.

Doing nothing to KEEP customers is in fact "doing it wrong".
GW boasted that they do not need to spend money on advertising because recruitment happens in their game stores and through veteran gamers introducing new gamers to the hobby.
Stores were cut, a lot of veteran players got alienated and do no longer "advertise" for them. Quite the opposite tbh.
GW focussed entirely on "sell and forget" customers eho will pay their entry fee into the hobby and then get distraced and quit again. Thats their target audience because they spent a lot of money in a single short period of time.
People who are already in the hobby are deemed unimportant as GW assumes that they are not buying a lot of stuff.

And here could be an issue.
These long time gamers recruit new gamers to expand their gaming group. Treat them like they are unimportant and they will feel unwanted and stop recruiting.
These long time gamers will probably buy every single product over time. They are so invested in the hobby that an exit becomes undesireable for them. But if you treat them like ****, they will stop buying everything and spend their money elsewhere while just getting "mandatory" upgrades from time to time.
Even a good ruleset can do wonders for sales. I really would love to expand on my Hellions for example. The models are gorgeous. But with these rules they just feel like a waste of money and space as I would not use them with the current ruleset.
New Archon/Haemi/Succubus? Why the hell should I buy them? I already own some. If the same working hours went into Vect, Malys and an updated Drazhar model... thats probably 70 € right here without asking myself any question about "do I really need them"

[Mr Mystery]

Again, failing to take into account other factors. UK Retail industry didn't do terribly well last Christmas as a whole. Weather over here is going potty, so clothing suffered. That meant fewer people in the high street, so all retailers feel the impact of fewer shoppers, as only those on a mission to buy from you (planned purchases) will be out and about. Impulse sales (you know, whilst I'm here I think I'll pick up X) go down - and when impulse sales go down, particularly for a hobby, your sales go down quite dramatically.

Any factoring of that in? No. Of course not. Because it's all GW. Only them. In isolation. Nothing else could possibly be contributing except the Interwebular opinion that it's them shooting themselves in the foot, because some bloke on the internet said so.

[Caitsidhe]

Any factoring of that in? No. Of course not. Because it's all GW. Only them. In isolation. Nothing else could possibly be contributing except the Interwebular opinion that it's them shooting themselves in the foot, because some bloke on the internet said so.

Yeah, that is about the size of it. The buck stops there. :D All those things you keep trying to blame their failings on are irrelevant because those are the sorts of things that a GOOD management team gets out ahead of and mitigates. Even if I were to accept those as the cause of Game's Workshop's problems (I don't), I would have to fault them on not figuring out how to offset them. This is a business we are talking about and excuses aren't acceptable. You either perform or you get the sack. All those people Games Workshop fired to cover up the mistakes at the top are a sick, sad joke. They fired the WRONG people.

[Path Walker]

Yeah, that is about the size of it. The buck stops there. :D All those things you keep trying to blame their failings on are irrelevant because those are the sorts of things that a GOOD management team gets out ahead of and mitigates. Even if I were to accept those as the cause of Game's Workshop's problems (I don't), I would have to fault them on not figuring out how to offset them. This is a business we are talking about and excuses aren't acceptable. You either perform or you get the sack. All those people Games Workshop fired to cover up the mistakes at the top are a sick, sad joke. They fired the WRONG people.

Stupid GW execs, failing to invent a weather controlling machine.

[Charon]

Again, failing to take into account other factors. UK Retail industry didn't do terribly well last Christmas as a whole. Weather over here is going potty, so clothing suffered. That meant fewer people in the high street, so all retailers feel the impact of fewer shoppers, as only those on a mission to buy from you (planned purchases) will be out and about. Impulse sales (you know, whilst I'm here I think I'll pick up X) go down - and when impulse sales go down, particularly for a hobby, your sales go down quite dramatically.

Wow I did not realise that less sales in the allmighty UK have such an dramatic impact on a company that operates worldwide.

Weather has been bad here the last few weeks... didnt go shopping much... kraft foods might be in trouble now.

On a more serious note: You also don't factor in positive events like the LotR hype (which is a good example of how a lazy ruleset can easily destroy a very good IP that literally ****s money on itself).

[Caitsidhe]

Stupid GW execs, failing to invent a weather controlling machine.

<laughs> Do you really want to go down this road? :D Do you really want me to explain in detail why poor weather in Britain has little effect on how many models we buy in the United States? This is an issue of sales, both local and global. It is a matter of how many toy soldiers get manufactured and sold. I recall, right here on this site, how many people (Games Workshop also) were touting themselves as a recession proof business. I guess neither the people here (nor Games Workshop) are claiming that anymore? :D

Look, I'll be happy to debate you on the weather. I'll be happy to debate you on currency exchange. I'll be happy to debate you on any of the MANY silly, reaching attempts to deflect blame in every direction but the people running the company. :D The problem is you guys doing so undermine your own credibility by refusing to admit Games Workshop's culpability in anything. You won't even consider them as a factor in their own problems. Clearly the world... from quacking voices like mine on the internet... to the the very environment is out to get them? :D Really? There isn't even a ghost of a chance the company itself might have a hand in its own problems? They have nothing to do with it?

[Path Walker]

Retail sales in its biggest market were down across the entire retail industry. But no, you're right, that has no bearing.

[Caitsidhe]

Retail sales in its biggest market were down across the entire retail industry. But no, you're right, that has no bearing.

Not really no, not with a company that just three to five years ago has sales growth through several years of recession. What was different then I wonder? Why were they still selling lots of toy soldiers then and making more profit. They even had a bigger work force and higher company expenses. Hrm. It is a difficult problem isn't it? It makes you wonder. Why with all the cuts in expenses and the release of so much new product (supposedly great) end with them being hurt by retail sales being down when they successfully endured YEARS of this before with sales only going up? There seems to be a missing piece to this puzzle. :D

Could it be that their drop in sales is tied to something ELSE? I mean that does fit the evidence and past performance information. :D

[Path Walker]

A recession is not the same as weather affecting high street sales.

Is that perhaps why you're stuggling with this?

[Caitsidhe]

A recession is not the same as weather affecting high street sales.

Is that perhaps why you're stuggling with this?

I'm not struggling with anything. I'm having a great time. You are priceless. I will never tell you to shut up because every time you post I get a little giddy. But let's get down brass tacks shall we? When this report comes up, we can probably (unless they conceal it) see where the biggest loss in sales took place. That means we can see if it was in U.K. due to that pesky weather, or if it was over here in the United States and other places. For the record, a recession is caused by numerous things, consumer confidence is a big one as well as economic conditions brought on by the weather. In fact, I think I'll just go take a look at the weather in the U.K. and compare it historically to other years in question. What do you thinks the odds are for or against that I will find several years of booming business five years ago during weather conditions in the U.K. that were equally bad? Care to make a friendly wager with me boyo? I'm more than willing to bet (and I haven't looked yet) that I can show definitively years of growing sales back when things were good for Games Workshop even though the weather was as bad or worse than recently. Wanna take that bet?

*Tick Tock. No cheating. I'm willing to make the bet before I go look.

[Erik Setzer]

While this is true to an extent, a company that does not contribute to a positive experience in their customers life will not be able to make money in the long run.

Actually it does take quite an efford to get a permanent negative image in the hobby industry (hello EA!).

Well, it really depends on the company. I work for a B2B company that sells to contractors, FMS, institutions, places like that, and I doubt us doing our best to have good value on the toilets or tools or cleaning chemicals we sell is making a positive difference in their lives. But I'm taking "positive difference" to mean more than "they saved a few bucks."

[Erik Setzer]

On a more serious note: You also don't factor in positive events like the LotR hype (which is a good example of how a lazy ruleset can easily destroy a very good IP that literally ****s money on itself).

I don't think it's the rules so much as it is that they just don't care to really push the game. They don't really do much to help move the models in their stores, and they keep making them Finecast (horrible material, especially in places like Florida where your models WILL warp over time, nothing you can do to stop it), and pricing them insanely. $45 for a single character? Why?!? I've enjoyed it when I've played it, I let the negativity taint my opinion and didn't try it until some other people decided to check it out, and we enjoyed it, but the reality is that GW will always push WFB and 40K more, and it's getting ridiculously hard to even get models for the LOTR/Hobbit games. I think the higher-ups feel that the movies will sell the models, and they don't want to push them too hard because they'll drop the line once the hype is over, and if those games get too popular, it could cause loss of long-term sales in WFB. That's silly, sure, but sometimes paranoia drives marketing decisions more than it should. And with the latest releases, they've priced Hobbit models well over 40K models, with all of them except the $500 dragon being made of a material people aren't fond of, so they just set up the latest set of releases for failure right from the start.

[Charon]

The movies did in fact sell the models. And the pushed the system really really hard at the beginning. That had a negative effect on WH40K and Fantasy gamers (I can clearly remember the "oh come on another WD with like 50% crappy LotR and no X).
And while I saw a good deal of LotR games back then, they slowly died undtil they completely disappeared.
This came down to 2 reasons:
1) If you play "evil" you lose. The good heroes and and units where miles better than the evil ones... like in the movies.
2) A lot of "evil" players quit because of 1) and the "good" players where bored to play more "good vs good" games.

They only stopped pushing LotR after the playerbase dropped significantly.

Cant comment on hobbit cause I never ever saw a single game of Hobbit since the start of the movie. But I guess that in itself is already telling me something.
Wild guess: they overprice models atm to get their investment back from the few dedicated collectors that do not care about the game itself but about a shelf of movie-miniatures and they will drop the line soon.

[daboarder]

I just find it hilarious that the same old crowed was predicting how all those talking about falling sales would be made fools due to this years financials including 7th and endtimes......what happened there people?

[Caitsidhe]

It is pretty likely that they will drop the product line to nothing as soon any hype dies with this last Hobbit film. Paying for the rights to produce games and figures for this franchise was one of the obscene mistakes made by Games Workshop in the last decade. I find it unlikely that they even made back enough to cover the cost of the rights.

[Caitsidhe]

I just find it hilarious that the same old crowed was predicting how all those talking about falling sales would be made fools due to this years financials including 7th and endtimes......what happened there people?

They got quiet and hoped we would forget about it. :D I'm petty but not that petty. I've been letting it slide, even though I was one of the ones relentlessly attacked about my very SPECIFIC predictions, including if I may... the upcoming report. It is all good. The truth is most of the people here are smart. They intuitively understood and knew the same things we did. They just didn't want to believe it. Hope springs eternal. There are a few here whom have to argue against it because it is part of their job. Things are tough all over. I'll be interested in seeing the specifics of the next report although I pretty much know the generality already. Then I can make my prediction for the next one.

[40kGamer]

If you have any inclination toward business theory, GW's position is really quite simple...

http://www.mrdashboard.com/images/BCG_Product_Life_Cycle.gif

GW has been milking the cash cow for years now. They have been increasing prices and recycling the same product over and over... and over. Eventually the market gets tired (saturated) and Cash Cows turn into Dogs. This happens to every competitive company at some point and there are various strategies management can use to restart the cycle. GW has changed some key management people so time will tell if this leads to any innovations or if it was a bait and switch to create a new public facade to allow Kirby to guide the company from the shadows. Regardless of which way things go the future will be very interesting. :p

[Erik Setzer]

It is pretty likely that they will drop the product line to nothing as soon any hype dies with this last Hobbit film. Paying for the rights to produce games and figures for this franchise was one of the obscene mistakes made by Games Workshop in the last decade. I find it unlikely that they even made back enough to cover the cost of the rights.

I think it could have worked out fine, if it wasn't for the fact they were basically competing with their own games... and then they also stripped out all of their own games down to two and only want to focus on those two.

Although yeah, the comments about "good" having so many bonuses over "evil" do have a point. I think they got the overall bonus down better, but one problem is that you need a lot more models to play orcs or goblins, and the models aren't any cheaper than the good armies. I can do a standard 500 point game with 22 models. If I went goblins, it would be closer to 100; orcs would likely be around 50-60, even Uruk-hai would be looking at 30-40, and I don't remember if they ever did plastic Uruk-hai.

Cinematic rules are also possibly a mistake. I actually charged Tauriel into multiple orcs once just to get all the bonus attacks for her, which put an otherwise stalemated combat clearly in my favor. Thandruil could be even worse. Yeah, I get that he's a badass who slices everything in his way, but in the game on foot he has four Attacks, plus a number equal to however many guys he's engaged with past the first, so if he faces 13 orcs he has 16 attacks. Guess who's winning that fight? You practically have to pull out Sauron, the Ringwraiths (who have tricky, weird rules of their own), or even Smaug (who, in order to be even remotely fair, isn't as powerful as he is in the movie).

[eldargal]

If you have any inclination toward business theory, GW's position is really quite simple...

http://www.mrdashboard.com/images/BCG_Product_Life_Cycle.gif

GW has been milking the cash cow for years now. They have been increasing prices and recycling the same product over and over... and over. Eventually the market gets tired (saturated) and Cash Cows turn into Dogs. This happens to every competitive company at some point and there are various strategies management can use to restart the cycle. GW has changed some key management people so time will tell if this leads to any innovations or if it was a bait and switch to create a new public facade to allow Kirby to guide the company from the shadows. Regardless of which way things go the future will be very interesting. :p

Nonsense. GW have been offering more products and expanding their ranges considerably for the past few years, that is not consistent with just milking a cashcow. If they were doing that we wouldn' have seen such a massive increase in large plastic kits and unit types across both game systems and armies, as well as them try new things like Dreadfleet even if that didn't work out so well for them.

[Mr Mystery]

It is pretty likely that they will drop the product line to nothing as soon any hype dies with this last Hobbit film. Paying for the rights to produce games and figures for this franchise was one of the obscene mistakes made by Games Workshop in the last decade. I find it unlikely that they even made back enough to cover the cost of the rights.

To LOTR in general, or just The Hobbit?

Becuase if it's the LOTR license in general, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Denzark]

I think the game culture, i.e. where and with whom we play is the key difference. Games Workshop's actions might support their British players fine (I don't know) but they are downright disruptive and destructive of the gaming community over here. They are literally making it harder and more difficult to play the game in the convenient manner to which we are accustomed. The question is who will give....


It is a rhetorical question because we all know the answer. Americans, for better or for worst, feel that merchants should cater to them, not the other way around. Their view is that if a particular merchant doesn't fulfill their needs, another one will. Whether you agree with this mindset or not is irrelevant. It is the dominant paradigm here. Fighting against it is a losing proposition because you won't wean Americans off their local gaming store.

I find this quite telling and key to informing the argument. The dominant paradigm in the US is one thing - but the catch 22 is that the dominant paradigm in the US is that the customer is always right. You can burger king and have it your way with a supersize of have a nice day at the end. And the staff running McJobs are brought up to believe that bending to the customer is the way of the American dream and how to make your first meellion dollar.

It is because of this very paradigm - that I think conversely there is something about GW that Americans can't comprehend. It is a totally alien concept. That the bottom line is profit - and that there are other ways to make profits than obsequiousness to customers.

There are a couple of things here I'd like to pick up on:

1. The concept of the books being cooked. If books are being cooked to the limits of legality (I don't think they are) and it is all spin - do you not think investors would be/are aware of this spin and aim off for it, taking it into account?

2. The SE/LE sell outs. This tells GW that there is a hard core who will buy almost at any price. Because shiny is shiny.

3. GW probably aren't totally aware of shall we say, a level of discontent in the community of gamers. But do you recall the bit in Fight Club when Brad Pitt explains how car companies assess the cost of a recall to fix a problem, against the cost of paying compensation out to people who were in a crash? Well the ill feeling in the community is the crash. Community engagement - the equivalent of a total recall of GW methodology - currently costs more than the ill-feeling costs them. On what metric do I base this? The fact that they still don't lavishly engage with the community in the way some areas feel they merit being engaged with. The cost of continuously pruning autistic comments from a FB page against the bad effect of Little Timmy's mum seeing all the geek vitriol poured out by angry neckbeards? Not worth it.

4. When GW run tournaments at their own HQ they see absolutely dedicated gamers who think the whole raft of new rules, SH, fortifications etc etc - absolutely love it. Same in UK GW stores. there are sufficient loyal feelings amongst for them what is a large proportion.

5. Finaly, and most key, is that whilst not as profitable, GW still make a profit. The needle is in the black not the red - which is enough for them.

[Wildeybeast]

Nonsense. GW have been offering more products and expanding their ranges considerably for the past few years, that is not consistent with just milking a cashcow. If they were doing that we wouldn' have seen such a massive increase in large plastic kits and unit types across both game systems and armies, as well as them try new things like Dreadfleet even if that didn't work out so well for them.

I never understood why Dreadfleet didn't do well. It was beautifully made and a really good game, not to mention the fact the internets is always moaning about GW not supporting specialist games. It should have sold like hotcakes, which was probably what GW was thinking as well. What more do people want?

[Mr Mystery]

They want whatever GW didn't release, it would seem.

Seriously, I've been knocking about the intertubes for yonks now, having started off as Mad Doc Grotsnik on Warseer. People demanded e-Codecies. They get them. They complain about them. People wanted Specialist Games type stuff. They got it. They refused to buy it, because apparently some guy said it was rubbish. People wanted more plastic - they got it. Suddenly, metal was better 'because character and filigree'.

Faster release schedule - now of course it's too fast.

And so on and so forth. There are elements of the community akin to an abusive spouse. No matter what the subject of their ire does, no matter if it's following their increasingly bizarre requests to the letter, it won't be good enough, and clearly intended as a personal insult.

[Wolfshade]

I find this quite telling and key to informing the argument. The dominant paradigm in the US is one thing - but the catch 22 is that the dominant paradigm in the US is that the customer is always right. You can burger king and have it your way with a supersize of have a nice day at the end. And the staff running McJobs are brought up to believe that bending to the customer is the way of the American dream and how to make your first meellion dollar.

It is because of this very paradigm - that I think conversely there is something about GW that Americans can't comprehend. It is a totally alien concept. That the bottom line is profit - and that there are other ways to make profits than obsequiousness to customers.

There are a couple of things here I'd like to pick up on:

1. The concept of the books being cooked. If books are being cooked to the limits of legality (I don't think they are) and it is all spin - do you not think investors would be/are aware of this spin and aim off for it, taking it into account?

2. The SE/LE sell outs. This tells GW that there is a hard core who will buy almost at any price. Because shiny is shiny.

3. GW probably aren't totally aware of shall we say, a level of discontent in the community of gamers. But do you recall the bit in Fight Club when Brad Pitt explains how car companies assess the cost of a recall to fix a problem, against the cost of paying compensation out to people who were in a crash? Well the ill feeling in the community is the crash. Community engagement - the equivalent of a total recall of GW methodology - currently costs more than the ill-feeling costs them. On what metric do I base this? The fact that they still don't lavishly engage with the community in the way some areas feel they merit being engaged with. The cost of continuously pruning autistic comments from a FB page against the bad effect of Little Timmy's mum seeing all the geek vitriol poured out by angry neckbeards? Not worth it.

4. When GW run tournaments at their own HQ they see absolutely dedicated gamers who think the whole raft of new rules, SH, fortifications etc etc - absolutely love it. Same in UK GW stores. there are sufficient loyal feelings amongst for them what is a large proportion.

5. Finaly, and most key, is that whilst not as profitable, GW still make a profit. The needle is in the black not the red - which is enough for them.

Yes!

[eldargal]

I never understood why Dreadfleet didn't do well. It was beautifully made and a really good game, not to mention the fact the internets is always moaning about GW not supporting specialist games. It should have sold like hotcakes, which was probably what GW was thinking as well. What more do people want?

I think it would have done better if they could have released it in toy stores. The usual anti-GW crowd loved to mock it but it had quite high user ratings on independent aggregate sites and the like. It just had too narrow a release.

[Caitsidhe]

I think it would have done better if they could have released it in toy stores. The usual anti-GW crowd loved to mock it but it had quite high user ratings on independent aggregate sites and the like. It just had too narrow a release.

I liked the game and I'm what you term "anti-GW," in so far at least as I think their management is awful. I think it should have been released in toy stores too and properly promoted.

[Caitsidhe]

1. The concept of the books being cooked. If books are being cooked to the limits of legality (I don't think they are) and it is all spin - do you not think investors would be/are aware of this spin and aim off for it, taking it into account?

Yes, I think the investors outside the bubble are well-aware and have been applying pressure. I also think some of the investors inside the bubble have had their fill too. All the crazy cuts to the bone have been because of investors wanting to know why profits are falling. The only answer management can give is that there are problems with all this waste and we are fixing it. That sounds better than "we the management made a lot of bad calls." Games Workshop has been undergoing salt the ground cuts because of investors.


2. The SE/LE sell outs. This tells GW that there is a hard core who will buy almost at any price. Because shiny is shiny.

This might be true. I'm not so sure. I suspect that what is really happening is GW can't meet demand or produces less on purpose (or both). This allows them a bit of free marketing PR, i.e. look we can't keep up. If you don't buy this NOW you won't get one! While I agree there will always be a precious few who will buy everything and at any price, there are not enough of said people to keep a company afloat.


3. GW probably aren't totally aware of shall we say, a level of discontent in the community of gamers. But do you recall the bit in Fight Club when Brad Pitt explains how car companies assess the cost of a recall to fix a problem, against the cost of paying compensation out to people who were in a crash? Well the ill feeling in the community is the crash. Community engagement - the equivalent of a total recall of GW methodology - currently costs more than the ill-feeling costs them. On what metric do I base this? The fact that they still don't lavishly engage with the community in the way some areas feel they merit being engaged with. The cost of continuously pruning autistic comments from a FB page against the bad effect of Little Timmy's mum seeing all the geek vitriol poured out by angry neckbeards? Not worth it.

We will have to agree to disagree here. The ill will is costing them a lot more than the price of a site moderator. Games Workshop resides in a bubble business culture, i.e. ignorant of some things and willfully ignorant of others. I think their behavior is costing them heavily. When you consider that they have cut their company to the bloody bone and still have dropping profits... well...


4. When GW run tournaments at their own HQ they see absolutely dedicated gamers who think the whole raft of new rules, SH, fortifications etc etc - absolutely love it. Same in UK GW stores. there are sufficient loyal feelings amongst for them what is a large proportion.

This is because GW run tournaments (what few there are at their OWN HQ as you point out) are largely PR events and are intended to come off that way. There are many events in North Korea and everyone loves the glorious leader at them too. :D


5. Finaly, and most key, is that whilst not as profitable, GW still make a profit. The needle is in the black not the red - which is enough for them.

We will agree to disagree here too. GW is a SMALL corporation. In business terms, one this size is either growing or dying. They are not "too big to fail" so to speak. Their value is not in dividends, but rather stock options. All is hinging on the crazed cuts of the last two years. If profits continue to fall... well... it is going to get stock ugly. Ultimately investors are going to look at where profits finally come to an even keel, i.e. how much lower are they going to be than back when the business was booming. If it becomes clear to them that GW has peaked... raising additional capital is going to become very difficult.

[40kGamer]

Nonsense. GW have been offering more products and expanding their ranges considerably for the past few years, that is not consistent with just milking a cashcow. If they were doing that we wouldn' have seen such a massive increase in large plastic kits and unit types across both game systems and armies, as well as them try new things like Dreadfleet even if that didn't work out so well for them.

Fair point. :) However, in essence they have recycled the same exact armies in the same two product lines (40k, WFB) ad infinitum or ad nauseam depending on one's personal point of view. The only reason we are seeing a preponderance of new big kits is that the market for the 10th resculpt of a marine is just not the same market they had for the 2nd, 3rd or even the 9th resculpt. (Although the fact that they are offering these new kits vs recycling models makes me very happy!) It is telling that the landslide of new kits hasn't really shifted their market position and actually from their news release it may not have even maintained their position.

Dreadfleet is a beautiful game. Bought it when it was released and then picked a couple of extra copies up on the cheap after the value crashed. The main complaint I hear over and over is that it is not ManOWar. Of course it isn't! It was never intended to be a reissue, but since it is viewed by many as another recycled idea it was destined to be compared/contrasted with MOW. Sad as it is a very nice self contained game in it's own right if you can mentally disconnect it from MOW.

- - - Updated - - -


While this is true to an extent, a company that does not contribute to a positive experience in their customers life will not be able to make money in the long run.

Actually it does take quite an efford to get a permanent negative image in the hobby industry (hello EA!).


Well, it really depends on the company. I work for a B2B company that sells to contractors, FMS, institutions, places like that, and I doubt us doing our best to have good value on the toilets or tools or cleaning chemicals we sell is making a positive difference in their lives. But I'm taking "positive difference" to mean more than "they saved a few bucks."

Quite true! It should be qualified that a luxury company that panders to our constant need to be entertained has to create a positive experience for us or it will not make money in the long run. Optional luxury goods are truly optional. Toilets and cleaning chemicals... not so much! :p

[Wildeybeast]

I think it would have done better if they could have released it in toy stores. The usual anti-GW crowd loved to mock it but it had quite high user ratings on independent aggregate sites and the like. It just had too narrow a release.


I liked the game and I'm what you term "anti-GW," in so far at least as I think their management is awful. I think it should have been released in toy stores too and properly promoted.

This is pretty much my point. It was a great game. It was pretty different from their other game offerings, so probably could have benefited from general toy store sales or promotion on boardgamegeek and such like. However, GW doesn't do that sort of stuff and certainly didn't for Space Hulk, which barely had time to go onto shelves. They had good reason to assume this would be similarly popular, so it wasn't exactly a terrible business decision. Furthermore, the 'failure' of Dreadfleet is clearly why they have not done any further one-off box games. So we could call their management "awful" or we could say they learned quickly from an unpredictable business situation, which most companies would class as at least decent management. What I think really happened with Dreadfleet was the rumour mill got excited about a reprint of Man o'war and then got stroppy when Dreadfleet wasn't it, rather than embracing a fun new game. The very same people who would no doubt have lambasted GW for selling out had they promoted/sold it through toy stores.

P.S. Dreadfleet is no longer available for sale, so either GW have stashed a whole bunch in a big warehouse with the Ark of the Covenant, or they did eventually sell them. Which would not really make it a failure at all.

[Mr Mystery]

Just gone back to re-read the initial post - and I think we may have lead off on an unsafe assumption.

They've said that sales are pretty much where they expected to be (though what that is, who knows), but that due to currency fluctuations and that, profits are looking to be about £1m down.

This is then immediately linked to a substantial fall in sales. But is that accurate?

In their statement, they list issues with the Eurozone and USD caused by the strong pound - something which would affect all exporters.

Now I don't follow the financial markets (I only work in the financial sector, rather than in Finance with the capital (lol) F) so I've little idea about how much the various valuations of currency have fluctuated.

But looking at their bottom line from 2014 - 12 month operating profit was £15.4m. And the current 6 months only runs to November 2014, so won't include Chrimbo, which is of course a big money time for any company.




From 2013 to 2014, Profits fell from £20.2m to £15.4, following an 8.2% drop in reported sales. So to lose a further £1m in profit, particularly when it's not include the Christmas takings? Is it a significant fall in sales that's behind it?

[40kGamer]

I find this quite telling and key to informing the argument. The dominant paradigm in the US is one thing - but the catch 22 is that the dominant paradigm in the US is that the customer is always right. You can burger king and have it your way with a supersize of have a nice day at the end. And the staff running McJobs are brought up to believe that bending to the customer is the way of the American dream and how to make your first meellion dollar.

It is because of this very paradigm - that I think conversely there is something about GW that Americans can't comprehend. It is a totally alien concept. That the bottom line is profit - and that there are other ways to make profits than obsequiousness to customers.

Absolutely. And it's fine for them to run their company however they want. But it's a global fact that the same formula will not work in every culture. If they're ok with a reduced presence then more power to them, and more room for others to step in and take their place. After all, being replaced when you are obsolete is definitely American.


1. The concept of the books being cooked. If books are being cooked to the limits of legality (I don't think they are) and it is all spin - do you not think investors would be/are aware of this spin and aim off for it, taking it into account?

Personally I don't think for one minute that their books are 'cooked' in the sense that they are fraudulent. But I do this for a living and if they are not taking advantage of the 'legal and generally acceptable' options to bend things their way then they are bigger idiots then any of us give them credit for. After all, companies are willing to pay stupid amounts of money for this kind of service. Investors are what they are, the largest ones are insiders and know the truth, the others are just along for the ride.


2. The SE/LE sell outs. This tells GW that there is a hard core who will buy almost at any price. Because shiny is shiny.

This is where GW truly shines and we have the perfect contemporary example in Smaug. Damn fine kit and one that I'm happy to work up and set on the shelf to look at until I die. The price point for this type of product is virtually irrelevant. There are enough collectors that can pick this up without even missing a beat. The only two things I picked up from GW's LOTR line are the Fellowship and Smaug. For me these are the two most iconic kits that represent Tolkien's vision. If I'm honest I would have probably dropped $1k on Smaug. And if this is the way GW wants to go then good for them.


3. GW probably aren't totally aware of shall we say, a level of discontent in the community of gamers. But do you recall the bit in Fight Club when Brad Pitt explains how car companies assess the cost of a recall to fix a problem, against the cost of paying compensation out to people who were in a crash? Well the ill feeling in the community is the crash. Community engagement - the equivalent of a total recall of GW methodology - currently costs more than the ill-feeling costs them. On what metric do I base this? The fact that they still don't lavishly engage with the community in the way some areas feel they merit being engaged with. The cost of continuously pruning autistic comments from a FB page against the bad effect of Little Timmy's mum seeing all the geek vitriol poured out by angry neckbeards? Not worth it.

4. When GW run tournaments at their own HQ they see absolutely dedicated gamers who think the whole raft of new rules, SH, fortifications etc etc - absolutely love it. Same in UK GW stores. there are sufficient loyal feelings amongst for them what is a large proportion.

Well if we're truly honest, the rules are not 'heavy' nor do they even interact well together. They crank out a basic beer & pretzels game with a lot of bling. Their stuff sells because the models and the 'universe' has real appeal. So they don't really need to be a 'game company' anymore... heck, they even publicly admit that they don't intend to be a game company anyhow.


5. Finaly, and most key, is that whilst not as profitable, GW still make a profit. The needle is in the black not the red - which is enough for them.

The bottom line is definitely the bottom line. They may be perfectly happy with a reduced position in the market. Maybe it's just not worth the hassle to try to own the gaming world anymore, or maybe they realize that there are so many good alternatives that they can't maintain their dominant position in this moment. They ignored the weeds growing in their garden and now it's out of control. But as you have stated, profit and dividends keep the investors happy and they are GW's real 'customers'. :p

[Erik Setzer]

People demanded e-Codecies. They get them. They complain about them. People wanted Specialist Games type stuff. They got it. They refused to buy it, because apparently some guy said it was rubbish. People wanted more plastic - they got it. Suddenly, metal was better 'because character and filigree'.

Faster release schedule - now of course it's too fast.

Well, playing a bit of the devil's advocate here (as well as some of my own feelings on this stuff)...

e-Codices: They still cost $35 (when I told my brother that, he asked why anyone would buy those and not a hardback), which is ridiculous when you look at the cost to produce those (nothing), and the quality is... bleh. They are bland, boring, and lifeless. You're paying $35 for a product that's had all the soul sucked out of it. And it also helps prove (as well as the new softback versions of stuff coming out) that GW isn't pricing their books based on production cost. But yeah, I've got some of the e-codices, and they are just awful, and paying that much for something like that is a slap in the face.

Dreadfleet - It was a board game. That doesn't compare to Specialist Games. Seriously, were you around for those games? Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Space Marine (screw Epic 40K, it murdered Space Marine), Warmaster, Man'o'War (technically before Specialist Games, but so was Space Marine), Gorkamorka... Those weren't board games, they were full miniatures games with a core game and plenty of stuff to add on. The original fleet game had a core box and, IIRC, three supplements (I still have most of the stuff at home), with multiple fleets to collect. Dreadfleet was closer to Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Tyranid Attack, etc.

Release schedule - I think it's not so much the speed, as it is two other things thrown onto the speed: First, they keep releasing expensive kits/books in rapid release, which gives no room for the wallet to recover. Second, there's no indication of what might be around the corner, just rapid-fire "Surprise! Here's a new kit you probably want for your army, and sure it's expensive, but you can afford it, right? Oh, you spent money last week because you didn't have a clue this was coming so you could set a budget? Aw, that sucks, man. Just buy it anyway!" People can't keep up with that. GW needs to ditch the BS acting like they're in danger of corporate espionage, and needs to pace the releases better. Especially when every codex is $50, and the campaign books have gone from $50 to $75, with multiples needed (especially if you want all the rules for Planetstrike, for example). If the stuff was cheaper, it wouldn't be so rough. But they're unnecessarily splitting campaigns into multiple books, then split those multiple books into multiples, all to get more and more money, with no way for people to know, "Hmm, is this other thing I might want more just around the corner?" It's a culmination of issues with their system. And yeah, it's a broken freaking system if you won't even tell your own store managers what they're going to have in stock and they're left having to crawl the Internet for rumors about upcoming releases from the company they work for. Toss in the way they're limiting the production runs so you have to buy everything ASAP or miss it... It's just so many bad things. Take away some of those issues and a weekly release schedule would be fine.

- - - Updated - - -


I think it would have done better if they could have released it in toy stores. The usual anti-GW crowd loved to mock it but it had quite high user ratings on independent aggregate sites and the like. It just had too narrow a release.

Definitely! Back in the day, you could find their board games in toy stores, hobby stores, or even department stores (i.e. Battlemaster). They also made quite a few of them. (Granted, yeah, you could actually bulk up your armies with some of those games for a bit of a discount.)

But they also seem to have dropped the idea of board games almost entirely, handing them over to FFG. That'd be fine with me, if their own policies didn't mean you can't buy those products in a GW store or play them in the store.

[Mr Mystery]

Specialist Games - yep, there for all of them.

How about Tyranid Attack or Advanced Space Crusade? Yes ok, same game, different names. Definitely board games.

Ditto Space Hulk, and to a fairly lesser extent because it was expandable, Blood Bowl.

All those were 'all in the box is all you're ever need, if not necessarily all you'll ever want'.

Also - the £1m down on the prediction. Before anyone starts tolling the bell - can we find out what the prediction was?

[40kGamer]

Just gone back to re-read the initial post - and I think we may have lead off on an unsafe assumption.

They've said that sales are pretty much where they expected to be (though what that is, who knows), but that due to currency fluctuations and that, profits are looking to be about £1m down.

This is then immediately linked to a substantial fall in sales. But is that accurate?

In their statement, they list issues with the Eurozone and USD caused by the strong pound - something which would affect all exporters.

Now I don't follow the financial markets (I only work in the financial sector, rather than in Finance with the capital (lol) F) so I've little idea about how much the various valuations of currency have fluctuated.

But looking at their bottom line from 2014 - 12 month operating profit was £15.4m. And the current 6 months only runs to November 2014, so won't include Chrimbo, which is of course a big money time for any company.




From 2013 to 2014, Profits fell from £20.2m to £15.4, following an 8.2% drop in reported sales. So to lose a further £1m in profit, particularly when it's not include the Christmas takings? Is it a significant fall in sales that's behind it?


My biggest customer sales a lot in the UK and the exchange rate changed from 1GBP ~ $1.67USD to 1GBP ~ $1.57USD from June to November. Anything outside of this fluctuation can be attributed to a sales $ change for the period. I'm more curious to see FFG/Asmodees statements but there's a longer wait for them!

[Wildeybeast]

Well, playing a bit of the devil's advocate here (as well as some of my own feelings on this stuff)...

e-Codices: They still cost $35 (when I told my brother that, he asked why anyone would buy those and not a hardback), which is ridiculous when you look at the cost to produce those (nothing), and the quality is... bleh. They are bland, boring, and lifeless. You're paying $35 for a product that's had all the soul sucked out of it. And it also helps prove (as well as the new softback versions of stuff coming out) that GW isn't pricing their books based on production cost. But yeah, I've got some of the e-codices, and they are just awful, and paying that much for something like that is a slap in the face.

Dreadfleet - It was a board game. That doesn't compare to Specialist Games. Seriously, were you around for those games? Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Space Marine (screw Epic 40K, it murdered Space Marine), Warmaster, Man'o'War (technically before Specialist Games, but so was Space Marine), Gorkamorka... Those weren't board games, they were full miniatures games with a core game and plenty of stuff to add on. The original fleet game had a core box and, IIRC, three supplements (I still have most of the stuff at home), with multiple fleets to collect. Dreadfleet was closer to Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Tyranid Attack, etc.

Release schedule - I think it's not so much the speed, as it is two other things thrown onto the speed: First, they keep releasing expensive kits/books in rapid release, which gives no room for the wallet to recover. Second, there's no indication of what might be around the corner, just rapid-fire "Surprise! Here's a new kit you probably want for your army, and sure it's expensive, but you can afford it, right? Oh, you spent money last week because you didn't have a clue this was coming so you could set a budget? Aw, that sucks, man. Just buy it anyway!" People can't keep up with that. GW needs to ditch the BS acting like they're in danger of corporate espionage, and needs to pace the releases better. Especially when every codex is $50, and the campaign books have gone from $50 to $75, with multiples needed (especially if you want all the rules for Planetstrike, for example). If the stuff was cheaper, it wouldn't be so rough. But they're unnecessarily splitting campaigns into multiple books, then split those multiple books into multiples, all to get more and more money, with no way for people to know, "Hmm, is this other thing I might want more just around the corner?" It's a culmination of issues with their system. And yeah, it's a broken freaking system if you won't even tell your own store managers what they're going to have in stock and they're left having to crawl the Internet for rumors about upcoming releases from the company they work for. Toss in the way they're limiting the production runs so you have to buy everything ASAP or miss it... It's just so many bad things. Take away some of those issues and a weekly release schedule would be fine.

- - - Updated - - -



Definitely! Back in the day, you could find their board games in toy stores, hobby stores, or even department stores (i.e. Battlemaster). They also made quite a few of them. (Granted, yeah, you could actually bulk up your armies with some of those games for a bit of a discount.)

But they also seem to have dropped the idea of board games almost entirely, handing them over to FFG. That'd be fine with me, if their own policies didn't mean you can't buy those products in a GW store or play them in the store.

Dreadfleet was a specialist game in so much as it was not part of the main lines (Warhammer, 40K, LotR) nor a campaign or expansion for them. This was the pretty broad definition GW used. You could argue it was also a board game since its mechanics and setting were radically different to the main games and indeed the likes of Necromunda and Mordhiem (which were basically just skirmish campaigns for the main games) and had a more board game feel. Whatever you call it, I don't get what your point is.

Heroquest and Warhammer Quest were both in a similar vein and quite popular. The edition of Space Hulk that came before Dreadfleet sold like hotcakes. The only noticeable difference I can see between the two is that with Dreadfleet, the community didn't get what they were wishlisting for and then panned it a result, often without even playing it.

[40kGamer]

Dreadfleet - It was a board game. That doesn't compare to Specialist Games. Seriously, were you around for those games? Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Space Marine (screw Epic 40K, it murdered Space Marine), Warmaster, Man'o'War (technically before Specialist Games, but so was Space Marine), Gorkamorka... Those weren't board games, they were full miniatures games with a core game and plenty of stuff to add on. The original fleet game had a core box and, IIRC, three supplements (I still have most of the stuff at home), with multiple fleets to collect. Dreadfleet was closer to Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Tyranid Attack, etc.

Agree that Dreadfleet doesn't compare to the Specialist games. It's like comparing 'Mordheim' to 'Warhammer Quest', the first is a fully realized tabletop game where the second is a self contained board game. ManOWar was expanded by Plague Fleet and Sea of Blood... plus every race had full fleets and not just a single ship. Dreadfleet is a fine 'little' self contained game but it is no replacement for ManOWar. People drawing the comparison hurt initial sales.


Release schedule - I think it's not so much the speed, as it is two other things thrown onto the speed: First, they keep releasing expensive kits/books in rapid release, which gives no room for the wallet to recover. Second, there's no indication of what might be around the corner, just rapid-fire "Surprise! Here's a new kit you probably want for your army, and sure it's expensive, but you can afford it, right? Oh, you spent money last week because you didn't have a clue this was coming so you could set a budget? Aw, that sucks, man. Just buy it anyway!" People can't keep up with that. GW needs to ditch the BS acting like they're in danger of corporate espionage, and needs to pace the releases better. Especially when every codex is $50, and the campaign books have gone from $50 to $75, with multiples needed (especially if you want all the rules for Planetstrike, for example). If the stuff was cheaper, it wouldn't be so rough. But they're unnecessarily splitting campaigns into multiple books, then split those multiple books into multiples, all to get more and more money, with no way for people to know, "Hmm, is this other thing I might want more just around the corner?" It's a culmination of issues with their system. And yeah, it's a broken freaking system if you won't even tell your own store managers what they're going to have in stock and they're left having to crawl the Internet for rumors about upcoming releases from the company they work for. Toss in the way they're limiting the production runs so you have to buy everything ASAP or miss it... It's just so many bad things. Take away some of those issues and a weekly release schedule would be fine.

I hear constant complaints about their crazy Ebook prices. Especially now that they obviously put so little effort into their army books... mostly cut paste and photo art. I'm ok with their hardbacks and overlook the inflated prices for them. if there is a full shift back to paperbacks I'll be checking out on updating my rule sets.

I'm also a little baffled by their super secret surprise release strategy. I guess they think they can get impulse $ every week or so... At the other end of the spectrum, FFG has been telegraphing Star Wars Armada since late summer... and I have planned to pick it up at release. My biggest complaint with them is they have trouble meeting release dates and they can't keep product stocked... I guess it's a good problem for them to have though! :p

[Mr Mystery]

I'm also a little baffled by their super secret surprise release strategy. I guess they think they can get impulse $ every week or so... At the other end of the spectrum, FFG has been telegraphing Star Wars Armada since late summer... and I have planned to pick it up at release. My biggest complaint with them is they have trouble meeting release dates and they can't keep product stocked... I guess it's a good problem for them to have though! :p

Part impulse, part not giving parasite companies like CH a chance to produce shoddy knock off sculpts of upcoming stuff by showing it off months in advance like they used to.

Armada? With you there. I'm up for that, and have it on pre-order from Amazon UK.

[40kGamer]

Part impulse, part not giving parasite companies like CH a chance to produce shoddy knock off sculpts of upcoming stuff by showing it off months in advance like they used to.

Quite likely! I don't know that anyone else has to deal with the level of piracy and IP appropriation that GW does! I wish these mooks would do something new and creative vs ride someone else's coat tails but that's too much to ask.


Armada? With you there. I'm up for that, and have it on pre-order from Amazon UK.

I expect it to be everything Star Trek Attack Wing is not.... man I need an evil grin emotie. :D

[Erik Setzer]

Part impulse, part not giving parasite companies like CH a chance to produce shoddy knock off sculpts of upcoming stuff by showing it off months in advance like they used to.

The strange thing, to me, is the worst case of any of that was, IIRC, the Lizardmen, and I don't think that actually did much to affect their sales. We've also now had it established that it's okay to make stuff that GW isn't making a model for, but not something they're making a model for, so CH and company can't do anything like that.

You can also go just two months in advance or something. Or even just say multiple weeks in advance, "Hey folks, we're doing Blood Angels in December! Get ready, Sons of Sanguinius!" Something to give people a heads-up.

And the "IP parasite" excuse, which was already frankly just pathetic, doesn't even remotely excuse them refusing to tell their own managers, who are left with no ability to plan marketing the latest products, because they don't know what's coming out. Sorry, but to put that VERY, VERY kindly, that is a completely stupid, moronic, insane way to run a business. When you're screwing over your own employees and their ability to move the product you insist on them moving X amount of, you're doing things wrong.

[Mr Mystery]

Are the managers a) not told, or b) not telling anyone that they've been told? It's a sackable offense under the contract.....

And it's far from moronic. It's about getting people in store, weekend in, weekend out. The more footfall, the more sales, even if there will be a typical slip in 'conversions' there (can't think of a better word). This works. I know it works. I worked for GW in 2010 to the point of getting on the management training course. You give people a reason to be in your store, and they buy more. Simple theory? Nobody goes into a GW without a plan to buy something. All the events they put on lead to sales.

Bigging something up for two months, three months, one months, one week - doesn't make any difference. And yes, anecdote alert - remember the previous Nid codex, where there were no previews possible because of an alleged **** up at the printers? Guess what was a massive weekend for my local store (I should know, I was there. I helped that success).

And is there 'move X amount of stock' - simply put, no. None of that. There's a financial target, and a core game target (to measure recruitment of new gamers). But that's it. No 'this is new. You must sell twelfty'. And again, personal experience - over a week, you sell more existing kits than you will spangly new stuff.

But what would I know. I only have personal experience of their training, approach and it's impact. And this is the internet after all, where we are, by default, quite wrong. Depending on who you ask.

GW know their target audience better than you do. It's not a hobby for everyone. It's quite a middle class hobby. Nothing to do with the price either. Kids coming into it tend to be fairly well read - and that'd be your traditional middle class. Sadly, if not pathetically for society, kids from less affluent families don't read very much, if at all - so they don't get exposed to fantasy and scifi tropes from a young age. For me, way back when I were a tiddler, it was Fighting Fantasy that really got me reading. Through those and the school promoted book club, it's a habit I've taken in my adulthood. Were it not for those books, who knows - I might be 'normal' rather than a massive, colossal Nerd (note the capital letter).

And then for the release window - lets look at the pathetic vitriol vomited up by the internets. Some will write off any unit based on the whiff of a rumour, and maintain that stance even when the rumour is proved false or not fully accurate. The models? Dear god - some see a single shot, from a single angle, and decide it's cack, especially when the photo is poorly scanned, or out of focus. It's as if they can't tell a wonky sculpt from poor photography. The longer it's previewed, the greater the circle jerk of people whining on and on and on - despite that it's usually merely a handful of hardcore ****wits turning up in thread after thread gibbering the same nonsense over and over and over - then point to how many threads contain whining (of their own posting) and claim they must be a majority. (BOLS isn't terribly bad for this sort of thing. I'm more thinking Dakka and Warseer).

[Eldar_Atog]

Are the managers a) not told, or b) not telling anyone that they've been told? It's a sackable offense under the contract.....

I would say option A. People are naturally talkative about details like that. In the field I work in, everyone is under non disclosure agreements for their projects. It doesn't stop people from talking about the details. Heck, my company has had 2 major layoffs in the last 15 years. For both of those, we all knew about them within at least 2 weeks. On the day the axe came down, there were camera crews at the major exits of the complex at 7am sharp... to record the former employees being escorted out of the building by security.

People talk about what they know. It's human nature.

[40kGamer]

I would say option A. People are naturally talkative about details like that. In the field I work in, everyone is under non disclosure agreements for their projects. It doesn't stop people from talking about the details. Heck, my company has had 2 major layoffs in the last 15 years. For both of those, we all knew about them within at least 2 weeks. On the day the axe came down, there were camera crews at the major exits of the complex at 7am sharp... to record the former employees being escorted out of the building by security.

People talk about what they know. It's human nature.

I would have to go with A too... no way that many people could possibly keep their pie-holes shut. :p

[Mr Mystery]

There's info and there's info.

They've been quite successful in controlling the rumour mill of late. We get sketchy rumors months out, most of which turn out to be untrue/fantasy. Then nearer the time, it coalesces more, and then without fail, White Dwarf 'leaks' - which I still think is them doing it!

Large part of that comes from it being known and publicised that people have and will continue to lose their jobs if they blab before it's time.

[40kGamer]

There's info and there's info.

They've been quite successful in controlling the rumour mill of late. We get sketchy rumors months out, most of which turn out to be untrue/fantasy. Then nearer the time, it coalesces more, and then without fail, White Dwarf 'leaks' - which I still think is them doing it!

Large part of that comes from it being known and publicised that people have and will continue to lose their jobs if they blab before it's time.

They are doing a remarkable job at controlling the flow and timing of information... and I strongly suspect the leaks are corporate driven as well, which is actually pretty clever.

[Mr Mystery]

Arched eyebrow caused for me this week, where one of the 'leaks' was from the electronic version of WD - and I can't think how anyone could get that before release....

[40kGamer]

I really have to applaud their use of the rumormill. It is far smarter to control it rather than try to fight it.

I wonder sometimes if they also initiate weird rumours like a possible 'Harlequin codex' to gauge interest for future projects. Of course they may also be completely oblivious, who knows! :p

[Erik Setzer]

MM, you might have at some point in the past been involved... but they've changed. They've gotten even more paranoid and stingy. I've heard from current managers about how they're getting annoyed that they can't really plan things out and stuff is dropped on them with no warning. That is NOT a good way to run business. It doesn't get me interested in coming in. Know what gets me, and all the people I know who frequent the local store, to come in? GAMES. Playing games with people and meeting new gamers. It took way too much effort for the local store to convince GW to allow an extra table be set up so the store had more than two, but that's helped keep people coming into the stores much more than a secretive release schedule does, especially when people can just go on the website and see what's coming out a week ahead of time without even having to step in the store... so that whole idea evaporates.

I also know that there's no "sell X of Y kit," but it's "sell $X in this time period." Of course, many companies have quotas, that's nothing new. But it's a lot easier when you can push a new release, something that isn't so easy if you're having to rely on the Internet rumor mongers to give you an idea of what's coming. (Occasionally, there's hints when the computer is updated, too, and they can find things in there, but it's still silly to have to try to dig through the computer to see what new product codes are showing up.)

It's a bad culture. And no, GW doesn't know what the customers want. That's why they're starting to drop in sales (and, consequently, profit). They keep claiming that people buy the models, and just buy the games to have something to do with the models they're buying. That lame claim is now slapped right on the 40K rules. And yet, that's not even remotely true. The majority - by a tremendous margin - of GW customers buy models to support their interest in the games. If they had any clue of what the customers want or are even doing, there never would have been that screw-up with Ork looted vehicles requiring them to rush a dataslate into White Dwarf so fast they didn't even bother proofreading it. A lot of Ork players love the fact that we can loot stuff with Orks and make it our own. Having rules for that is a big thing for Ork players, even if the rules aren't that amazing. But GW just skipped on that, because the current management apparently *is* stupid enough to believe that we all just buy their kits off the shelf and assemble and paint them as we're told, to just sit and look pretty on a shelf, occasionally taking them down to play a game as a side function. They play catch-up too often... and not always in a brilliant way, like how all these softcover releases coming out are barely cheaper than the hardbacks, which makes them serve as a big middle finger to people who aren't quick on the draw or don't just fork over high amounts for basic books (and then there's the silly prices on digital books which have less effort put into them than a college project, and the mini-rulebook for 40K that's $58).

Oh, and their standing policy to throw unsold White Dwarf copies into the dumpster the moment the next week's issue is on the shelf? That's take a steaming dump on anyone who can't get in every week, and also something that most (if not all) GW managers know is a bad idea. Heck, everyone with common sense knows it's a stupid idea, as you're missing out on sales. But apparently they think it forces people to come in every week (hey, if you're off doing military training that week, it's your fault for being in the armed forces, right?), and those $4 pamphlets cost them so little to produce that they can just throw them away rather than try to sell them and get a return on them. (So yeah, do folks want to tell me again how they *need* to price WD at $4 because it costs so much to produce them? Because I swear I feel like getting a photo of the WDs lying in the dumpster to shut down that claim. If something costs so much to produce that you have to charge a silly price for it, it's too expensive to just throw away after one week on the shelf.)

- - - Updated - - -


Arched eyebrow caused for me this week, where one of the 'leaks' was from the electronic version of WD - and I can't think how anyone could get that before release....

That one made me question what's going on, because that has to be either an internal "leak," or someone accidentally let WD get up online early. So either it's a manipulative trick, or incompetence on someone's part. Neither is really a good look for GW.

But hey, at least no one was complaining they couldn't clearly see the images because of phone camera quality this time, right?

[40kGamer]

Oh, and their standing policy to throw unsold White Dwarf copies into the dumpster the moment the next week's issue is on the shelf? That's take a steaming dump on anyone who can't get in every week, and also something that most (if not all) GW managers know is a bad idea. Heck, everyone with common sense knows it's a stupid idea, as you're missing out on sales.

This one pisses me off plenty. I found out after I read online that WD had some Space Hulk stuff in it and I went to the GW store to find out that I was a day late and that copy was in the trash. My FLGS was sold out but I was lucky enough to find a copy at a Hobby store.

[40kGamer]

GW Management releases official statement to customers and shareholders for the New Year!

http://neuroblog.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/calvin-hobbes-new-years-resolutions-572x433.jpg

[Erik Setzer]

This one pisses me off plenty. I found out after I read online that WD had some Space Hulk stuff in it and I went to the GW store to find out that I was a day late and that copy was in the trash. My FLGS was sold out but I was lucky enough to find a copy at a Hobby store.

The COD cards are another situation where it can actually bite them in the ***. I was trying to get people to snag up the WDs with those cards, but some people said that because they missed the first one by not being in the store on the last shopping week before Christmas, they had no reason to pick up the back half of the card set, especially as this week's issue is just half a card set, a couple COD scenarios, and then a "review of the year" which is just so much useless filler. Oh, and another playing card game (this time with a Stormraven and an Ork flyer, but I guess you could use any two flyers, if you're inclined to play a game using playing cards instead of just actual 40K). So, yeah, if you missed the week before, that means you don't really have a reason to pick up this week. But if they had the unsold copies on the shelf, they could get $8 out of people who otherwise would have skipped out because of missing the first one.

[40kGamer]

If they want WD to be a rag-mag advert that gets tossed every week fine. Putting in content that people can actually use and tossing it every week is just plain stupid.

[Caitsidhe]

flores para los muertos... flores para los muertos....

More and more it becomes obvious both in stores and by the activity of fan sites, that there is a decided lack of people piling into the 40K clown car these days. Hell, you can hear a pin drop on this site most days. I recall when I couldn't keep up with the posts.

[Mr Mystery]

Whereas Warmachine and X-Wing, two popular games have their boards absolutely heaving.

Oh wait, no..... They're quiet as well.

Think this was covered earlier in this thread - Facebook has a lot of groups for 40k, Horus Heresy and Warhammer, alongside Warmahordes, Infinity and X-Wing and that.

[Erik Setzer]

Whereas Warmachine and X-Wing, two popular games have their boards absolutely heaving.

Oh wait, no..... They're quiet as well.

Think this was covered earlier in this thread - Facebook has a lot of groups for 40k, Horus Heresy and Warhammer, alongside Warmahordes, Infinity and X-Wing and that.


Usenet groups used to have lots of activity, as did "guestbooks" on GW fan sites that ended up being used as forums. Then dedicated forums started to pop up and people migrated to those instead, leaving the originals dead. Now everyone's on Facebook so people are migrating there, even though it's a lot harder to separate discussions by topic and keep track of them (a lot of days I just don't even bother). It's the way the Internet goes, the traffic moves somewhere new.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

I find Facebook discussions preferable, as the traditional Keyboard Warrior doesn't have quite the anonymity they do on a forum.

[40kGamer]

Whereas Warmachine and X-Wing, two popular games have their boards absolutely heaving.

Oh wait, no..... They're quiet as well.

Think this was covered earlier in this thread - Facebook has a lot of groups for 40k, Horus Heresy and Warhammer, alongside Warmahordes, Infinity and X-Wing and that.

One of the great things about traditional 40k has been a cohesive community. On the surface it appears that the transition to 6th/7th and the decline in the tournament circuit has put a lot of stress on this cohesion. This will not kill the game (or company) by any means but it does change up the community. With a fractured community and negligible tournament activity I would just as soon paint and play historical games. The models are just as nice, a fraction of the cost and the rule systems are far more balanced / entertaining.

[Caitsidhe]

One of the great things about traditional 40k has been a cohesive community. On the surface it appears that the transition to 6th/7th and the decline in the tournament circuit has put a lot of stress on this cohesion. This will not kill the game (or company) by any means but it does change up the community. With a fractured community and negligible tournament activity I would just as soon paint and play historical games. The models are just as nice, a fraction of the cost and the rule systems are far more balanced / entertaining.

We have a winner! Pretty much the ONLY thing 40K had going for it (as far as myself and many other people were concerned) was community. The ability to walk into a LGS and get a game just by asking was huge. That alone was worth the rather hefty price of admission. That no longer exists.

[Denzark]

We have a winner! Pretty much the ONLY thing 40K had going for it (as far as myself and many other people were concerned) was community. The ability to walk into a LGS and get a game just by asking was huge. That alone was worth the rather hefty price of admission. That no longer exists in some parts of America.

There, fixed that for you.

[Eldar_Atog]

We have a winner! Pretty much the ONLY thing 40K had going for it (as far as myself and many other people were concerned) was community. The ability to walk into a LGS and get a game just by asking was huge. That alone was worth the rather hefty price of admission. That no longer exists.

I would disagree a bit on this. The storyline behind the game is a good one. If the universe wasn't interesting, I don't think you'd see this amount of interest. I'm not saying that the community isn't important but I just can't say that it is the only positive.

Truthfully, the biggest millstone around 40k's neck is GW corporate.

[Erik Setzer]

I would disagree a bit on this. The storyline behind the game is a good one. If the universe wasn't interesting, I don't think you'd see this amount of interest. I'm not saying that the community isn't important but I just can't say that it is the only positive.

Truthfully, the biggest millstone around 40k's neck is GW corporate.

Yeah, I like the universe and that was one of the things that drew me in. Though I will say that without a friendly group of people to play against, I wouldn't be spending much if anything on it. For a while it was just too much hassle to get to a game store (until GW opened a store right by my neighborhood), so I didn't spend anything on gaming products and mostly lost interest.

[Caitsidhe]

Only a few more days and we get the next report. :D

[40kGamer]

Only a few more days and we get the next report. :D

It's like getting a belated Christmas present! Too bad the Asmodee/FFG report is still over a month away! :p

[Caitsidhe]

It's like getting a belated Christmas present! Too bad the Asmodee/FFG report is still over a month away! :p

True but I'm sure this one will give us something to talk about for a month at least.

[40kGamer]

True but I'm sure this one will give us something to talk about for a month at least.

True... It'll probably take a full week to debate the revenue drop caused by currency fluctuations vs declining sales.

[Caitsidhe]

True... It'll probably take a full week to debate the revenue drop caused by currency fluctuations vs declining sales.

Yep, although it should only take about fifteen minutes to do the math and debunk that as an excuse. :D

[BeardMonk]

Whereas Warmachine and X-Wing, two popular games have their boards absolutely heaving.

Oh wait, no..... They're quiet as well.



Cant speak for xwing but the official WM/H forum run by PP is busy all the time. But PP supports their community and the forum is one way they do that.

[Denzark]

I think MM meant on here, not the official site. You can't compare like for like using official sites because GW don't have a forum.

[Wolfshade]

Cant speak for xwing but the official WM/H forum run by PP is busy all the time. But PP supports their community and the forum is one way they do that.

I know what you mean their prescene on the high street so I can pop in and play is essential. Oh wait, no that doesn't happen.

[Caitsidhe]

I know what you mean their prescene on the high street so I can pop in and play is essential. Oh wait, no that doesn't happen.

It happens here. :D I've gotten more Warmachine/Hordes games in the last month than I have 40K in the previous year. They were all with people I didn't know (until I played them) and connected simply by saying, "hey want a game?" I openly defer to the point that I know nothing about England or Mercia, but in the United States their presence is only growing.

[BeardMonk]

I know what you mean their prescene on the high street so I can pop in and play is essential. Oh wait, no that doesn't happen.

Is there a "Privateer Press Shop" on the high street. No. Can I go into nearly EVERY major (and minor) War Games Shop on on-line retailer in the UK and interweb and buy their products? Yes. Can I get a game in my local area, yes. Is their official support for the game provided by PP? Yes. Its an aside to the thread but from my experience in the UK, its here, its solid and its well known.

xwing much less so I think.

[Psychosplodge]

@ caitsidhe Cultural differences.
The UK land is expensive so shops generally small and are rammed full of stock, so most independents in my experience don't have gaming space, with the occasional exception of a table for CCG.
GW always has at least two and usually three 4x4 playing spaces, plus a paint station.



Is there a "Privateer Press Shop" on the high street.



@beardy, I think that was Wolfies point.

[Caitsidhe]

Cultural differences.
The UK land is expensive so shops generally small and are rammed full of stock, so most independents in my experience don't have gaming space, with the occasional exception of a table for CCG.
GW always has at least two and usually three 4x4 playing spaces, plus a paint station.

Yep. That is a huge cultural difference because the independents here (the successful ones) trade on LARGE stores up to which half the space is often dedicated to gamers using it. They have found that keeping gamers (i.e. customers) in the store all day long to play games equates to more impulse sales. The customers are victims of propinquity. It becomes a positive feedback loop for specific games. The more games of 40K or Warmachine/Hordes (or whatever) going on for other people to see and ask questions about, the more players are likely to get interested and try it out. The players become free advertisements. This is why the drop off in Games Workshop players and the shift other games is becoming such a problem... at least in the American market. It isn't getting played as much in the LGS. You can't just walk in and grab a game. For GW it is a negative feedback loop. What happens is people come in and see:

1. People playing some other game (Warmachine/Hordes is a frequent one).
2. People ask questions and find out the buy in to Warmachine Hordes is dirt cheap to start play.
3. If they compare that to the cost on the Games Workshop wall, they are sticker shocked.

So which one would you try out, the one with Players talking to you and within a price range you can impulse buy, or the one with no games available unless you happen to know someone already playing to plan one (and costs a fortune to get going)?

[Mr Mystery]

It happens here. :D I've gotten more Warmachine/Hordes games in the last month than I have 40K in the previous year. They were all with people I didn't know (until I played them) and connected simply by saying, "hey want a game?" I openly defer to the point that I know nothing about England or Mercia, but in the United States their presence is only growing.

Not provided by the company though, so the same applies to GW in 'Murica.

And this is the fundamental difference between UK and US concepts of customer service (I apologise in advance for what is sure to be an oversimplification - no insult intended).

UK - Company sells me stuff, and gives me stuff to do with it, without additional charge. Yep. GW do this and in spades. Local stores do a lot for us.

US - We buy stuff from the company, so they should cater to our every whim.

Not drawing conclusions about one being bad, one being good. No point doing that on account it's subjective.

But I don't consider PP to offer any customer service worth speaking of in the UK. Oh they do Tournaments? Great, so I can pay them more, to play the game I've just paid them money to obtain the models and rules for. Yeah. Great. T'riffic. There's no engagement with their community, and it shows. Warmahordes is tiddly in the UK. Got a local games club with 30-40 members. Nobody plays Warmahordes, there is some Infinity and a growing X-Wing group (yay!). But everyone has at least one GW army, and it's GW games that get played the most.

Now, we might see a local shift here soon, as the town is getting a FLGS in the very near future. This will make impulse buys whilst kicking about town possible. I dunno about you, but I find impulse buys on a new game a rarity in my spending habit. Perhaps it's my age, but I remain first and foremost a visual shopper. I don't have the inclination to trawl the interwebs until something catches my eye, but I do it all the time on the high street.

FFG are currently suffering from the limited availability of their fantastic X-Wing game. As covered elsewhere, in the 4 or 5 months since I got involved in the game, I've wound up with pretty much two of everything, missing only the Rebel Transport, Shuttle, Slave 1 and the Falcon. All this will be rectified in time. But their comparative rarity is most irritating. Yes, I can lend my ships to people, and I freely do so (no point having all the toys if you're keeping them to yourself), but the fact new would-be opponents struggle to buy the fleet they want is a big issue. But happily one their recent merger might just clear up!

But with the exception of GW, here in the UK there are absolutely no wargames companies actively seeking my custom. Not one. Sure they might arrange or enable tournaments, but that's not reaching out to me as a prospective gamer. Nor do they offer much for those who don't enjoy the tournament environment (because minority they may be, TFG will ruin anything they turn up to just by being TFG).

So it's GW that get the majority of my cash. I can stroll into my local store (5 minutes from my flat) for a natter and a chinwag. Manager will of course try to sell me stuff, that being his job - but he does so by engaging with me as a would-be customer, in precisely the same way he does with people who didn't used to be his underling, and those who have never set foot in a GW store at all.

So here in the UK, GW have customer service absolutely nailed down tight.

[Caitsidhe]

Not provided by the company though, so the same applies to GW in 'Murica.

And this is the fundamental difference between UK and US concepts of customer service (I apologise in advance for what is sure to be an oversimplification - no insult intended).

No offense taken. I'm going to boil things down in very simple terms too, but it isn't an oversimplification. If you go read the Game Workshop prospective, you will find that they, themselves, indicated 70% of their sales occur outside the United Kingdom. Of those sales, about half come (or came) from the United States. :) This means a significant portion of their revenue comes from customers who expect them to cater to us. Whether you find this morally repugnant or not, it is a cold hard fact. The downward trend in sales could be attributed to a great many things, but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that it seems to coincide roughly to Games Workshop ending support for organized play, releases of rules which make standardized, organized play difficult, and by making it more difficult (and expensive) for Americans to buy the product the way they want to buy it. There is also, of course, the bad blood building between customer and company.

I suppose Games Workshop might have some master plan which includes divesting itself of that troublesome American market. Perhaps they decided in some Kirbyesque Boardroom that long term in Bizarro World cutting off 1/4 to 1/3 or your sales is somehow GOOD for the company. :D I won't even pretend to understand how they think anymore. I've found the best way to guess what they will do is think about what is the most business smart thing, logical based on standard practices... and then think about what would be the opposite of that.

[Wolfshade]

Is there a "Privateer Press Shop" on the high street. No. Can I go into nearly EVERY major (and minor) War Games Shop on on-line retailer in the UK and interweb and buy their products? Yes. Can I get a game in my local area, yes. Is their official support for the game provided by PP? Yes. Its an aside to the thread but from my experience in the UK, its here, its solid and its well known.

xwing much less so I think.

So they don't really support the community. They don't provide a place to play or learn or attract new players. What they do is sell to existing members of the wargamming community. McVitie's support the biscuit eating community by selling biscuits.

The big difference is that they have their own forum.

Wow. But the question is why? Because there wasn't one generated by the community.

I mean really, is that a big thing. I would much rather be able to talk to people directly, you know like in the shops or at WHW.

- - - Updated - - -


long quote

No where are the GW sales figures ever quoted. Their revenue figures are....

[Mr Mystery]

Big part of that issue - which customers do you bend over most for? (excuse the vernacular)

Some will want X, some will want Y. Some of those wanting X will walk away if Y is delivered instead, and vice versa.

The new games coming out tend to focus on a particular type of play. GW games take a much broader approach. Some consider this a weakness, others a strength (I'm in the latter). Downside is that if a game which happens to cater to a specific niche comes out, those gamers who favour said niche will migrate. This is a natual process, and unavoidable. Downside of the niche though is that it won't attract as many gamers who aren't in favour of said niche. For instance, Warmahordes doesn't interest me not because of it's scale, but the steampunk aesthetic, and that with most rolls resolved via 2D6, it can be a bit tedious for my tastes.

In short - how can they successfully adopt the American preference in America, without inevitably annoying a bunch of games, and ending up exactly where we are right now? Is it possible? And with the frenzied hatemob who simply despise anything GW ever do ever, because reasons, any move they make will be subjected to the online whinechamber.

[Caitsidhe]

So they don't really support the community. They don't provide a place to play or learn or attract new players. What they do is sell to existing members of the wargamming community. McVitie's support the biscuit eating community by selling biscuits.

That depends on how you look at it. The price barrier to get into the game is lower so that encourages community. Their product is available (all of it) through LGS and a variety of outlets to maximize distribution. Most LGS, in turn, provide ample gaming space. The lower price point for customers also means the LGS pays a lower price point to get the product. Since the community is calculated primarily in whether or not there IS a community and whether it is expanding or contracting, their methods seem to be supportive enough.


The big difference is that they have their own forum.

That is a pretty big difference. More to the point, they don't stock their own Forum with shills, nor do they immediately censor or remove discussions which aren't Psycho-Pep Squad in favor of Privateer. They, for the most part, treat their customers as adults and for the most part the customers treat them fairly in return.


Wow. But the question is why? Because there wasn't one generated by the community.

You are kind of missing the point here. Lots of other sites weren't generated because there already was ONE place to go. It is a unifying force, i.e. indicative a single, LARGE community rather than lots of little ones. Their standardized rules and method of delivering them combined with their focus on supporting organized play is all part of how they sustain and grow their community. Privateer Press fronts the money to run their own Forum because they see that cost as justified in growing the community through the common watering hole. *Just to be clear, I don't work for Privateer Press. I am merely commenting on the process.


I mean really, is that a big thing. I would much rather be able to talk to people directly, you know like in the shops or at WHW.

Yes, it is a big thing. The very fact that you have to ask that question means it will be impossible for me to explain why it is big thing to you.

[Mr Mystery]

Trouble is, GW Forums fall foul of the online goonsquad, who just go on and on and on. It gets offensive quickly, and becomes more hassle than it's worth.

We saw the same thing with the otherwise lauded Facebook stuff they did. Minority decided to act like spoiled children, so GW decided it wasn't worth the hassle to constantly moderate. They got attacked for moderating, and then attack for not moderating. Only sensible thing to do was pull it, and get the trolls back under their bridges.

[Wolfshade]

"Their product is available (all of it) through LGS and a variety of outlets to maximize distribution"

That is not supporting the community, that is selling something. Being able to buy Hobnobs anywhere does not mean that McVitie's are supporting the community. They are just selling stuff to an existing market.


That is a pretty big difference. More to the point, they don't stock their own Forum with shills, nor do they immediately censor or remove discussions which are Psycho-Pep Squad in favor of Privateer. They, for the most part, treat their customers as adults and for the most part the customers treat them fairly in return.

This suggest that you have decided that if GW even had a forum it would be stocked with their own shills etc.
So on the one hand you think a choice of things (where to buy) is a good thing, but then claim lack of choice (1 forum) is a good thing. I am not sure I am understanding the dichotomy here. The difference is age, PP which isn't available in my flgs, creates a forum to create an artificial community from which an organic one can grow. GW didn't bother to create one as there were GW usergroups since the dawn of the internet and they didn't need to create one. Look at this forum, originally it grew mainly covering GW products, it has a huge membership, Dakka Dakk, Warseer, B&C all organically grew. Yet this is a bad thing...

I can buy monoply anywhere in the world. I can play it at a variety of places are Hasbro supporting the gaming community?

GW don't need a single point to go online. Their philosophy, is that the hobby store is where the hobbiest should go, to meet interact and play with people in real life. 42% of GW's revenue is from such hobby stores. It is through the stores and human interaction where they directly support the community, not only that they grow the community taking time out to provide a space at their own cost (not just some retailers cost) to teach people to play and paint and build. Yet somehow this isn't supporting them enough as they don't have their own online space...

[Caitsidhe]

Big part of that issue - which customers do you bend over most for? (excuse the vernacular)

This is a fair question. My answer is as many of them as you can manage. Games Workshop has been around a long time and I would be lying if I said they weren't on the ball at one time. The issue is they evolved in an environment where they were not only Top Dog, they were pretty much the ONLY dog. Times change. They have to adapt with those changes. The key problem is that Games Workshop sells to multiple different markets but treat them all exactly the same way. That provides them with a simplicity in operating system but will inevitably cost them in some sales. It is the belief that, "as goes England, so goes the world!" That mindset is dangerous from a business standpoint. My suggestion is that their model in the United States needs to be different. I happen to think their model in Australia should be different too. You get the idea. They need solid market info on the ground in these very different places in which they move their product and they need to cater the local reality.


Some will want X, some will want Y. Some of those wanting X will walk away if Y is delivered instead, and vice versa.

Then give the ones that want X... X. Give the ones that want Y... Y. Base it on the majority of said people ina GIVEN market. Right now Games Workshop is basing it all on some town in England. :D


The new games coming out tend to focus on a particular type of play. GW games take a much broader approach. Some consider this a weakness, others a strength (I'm in the latter). Downside is that if a game which happens to cater to a specific niche comes out, those gamers who favour said niche will migrate. This is a natual process, and unavoidable. Downside of the niche though is that it won't attract as many gamers who aren't in favour of said niche. For instance, Warmahordes doesn't interest me not because of it's scale, but the steampunk aesthetic, and that with most rolls resolved via 2D6, it can be a bit tedious for my tastes.

I don't disagree with you entirely here, but Games Workshop is a business and can't afford to focus on broader ideals. They have to go where the business is going and their current plan seems to place everything in the hand of consumers who have a much shorter attention span and a wider variety of bright packages in front of them. Games Workshop, instead of all these scam books, should have produced two basic rule books (both of which they could have charged obscene amounts of money for), i.e. the Epic and the Competitive. They needed one set of rules which don't care about balance or organized play, and one set that does. If you are correct Mr. Mystery both sets would sell well and they could cater to both markets. However, if one book sells more and more and inches the other out... well they could then center on that. My personal opinion is that the balanced set of rules which give a community an easy standard would dominate. That is how these things go historically. However, there was no reason NOT to do it. Privateer Press's niche isn't the type of game or the setting. Their niche is game balance and organized play. That is why they have remained stable. Do I care much for the Iron Kingdoms? No. The setting has never been my cup of tea. I play the game because there are people to play with and the rules are good. Given a choice I would be playing in the Warhammer Fantasy or 40K setting. I won't , however because the damn rules don't work and games are becoming scarce. We follow the buffalo. :D


In short - how can they successfully adopt the American preference in America, without inevitably annoying a bunch of games, and ending up exactly where we are right now? Is it possible? And with the frenzied hatemob who simply despise anything GW ever do ever, because reasons, any move they make will be subjected to the online whinechamber.

You have to accept that Americans do it that way (and cater to it) and the British do it this way (and cater to them in their market) and so on to all the others... *If it is done correctly nobody will care; there will even be some national pride. There isn't a huge crossover of American and British player playing the game against each other. Most consumers can't pop back and forth across the pond for a quick match. :D Even if we did, we would be amused by having the exotic Royal w/Cheese instead of a Quarter Pounder while we are there. All I'm saying is that you can't realistically be an international company trying to market to everyone as if they are all the same country.

[Caitsidhe]

Trouble is, GW Forums fall foul of the online goonsquad, who just go on and on and on. It gets offensive quickly, and becomes more hassle than it's worth.

We saw the same thing with the otherwise lauded Facebook stuff they did. Minority decided to act like spoiled children, so GW decided it wasn't worth the hassle to constantly moderate. They got attacked for moderating, and then attack for not moderating. Only sensible thing to do was pull it, and get the trolls back under their bridges.

I have little doubt that Privateer Press also considers it work to moderate. Their site is large and extremely active. The same spoiled children are there (I'm certain). I don't believe for a second that Warmachine/Hordes players are somehow more refined and above having that minority of jerks. Even so, Privateer Press continues the site, pays for it and does the work of moderation. This tells us two things:

1. It is cost effective for them to do so because they see a result in their community and sales because of it.
2. They are on solid financial ground because if they were not, the Forums would be the first thing to go.

Look, I'm not out here to say Privateer Press GOOD... Games Workshop BAD. We are using the two companies to compare and contrast each other because they are in the same business. One has to look around at the internet and the nature of the modern world. We are talking about companies that make their money on games which require a community spirit and standards. This requires community interaction. Like it or not, Games Workshop is shooting themselves in the foot by trying to run things with one way communication. You are 100% correct that those jerks are out there Mr. Mystery. However, Games Workshop is 100% wrong in deciding it isn't worth it to moderate. Taking a rolled up newspaper to all their fan's noses over the behavior of a few is not how you win friends and influence people. That is how a Marine Corps. Drill instructor punishes a squad of Marines. It isn't going to work here. :D

[Psychosplodge]

That's France :rolleyes:

Uk menu... (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=do+the+harlem+shake)

[Caitsidhe]

That's France :rolleyes:

Uk menu... (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=do+the+harlem+shake)

<laughs> Don't you guys use the Metric System too? Ah well, I've never been to a McDonalds in England. I rarely go to one here in America. :D

[Psychosplodge]

We use bits of it. And bits of imperial. But our imperial is different to your imperial :D (iirc your pints and gallons are smaller)

[Caitsidhe]

We use bits of it. And bits of imperial. But our imperial is different to your imperial :D (iirc your pints and gallons are smaller)

Personally I wish my own country would get with the times and go Metric too.

[Psychosplodge]

No we generally object to metric as it suits us, and only grudgingly use the bits we do.

[Erik Setzer]

Eh, so many comments, I won't use quotes, I'll just hit on a few points.

In America, we don't have the idea that "We buy from you, so you need to do what we tell you." It's more, "Why should we buy from you? Give us a reason to pick you over some other company." There's more competition. In the UK, GW's saturated the market, so culturally people will lean toward them and they don't have to do so much to get someone to buy their stuff, but in America people aren't as tied up in a British national product, so, well, GW has to actually give people value for their money. And they're horrible at doing that.

GW also seems to be bad at adapting to differences in how people play games in different areas. In the US, we like to play games in stores, meet up on evenings or the weekends and throw down. But they still insist on having next to no gaming space. It took some serious effort to get a third table for playing games at the local GW store, yet there are days when the place is so packed that a fourth table that's normally reserved for displaying starter sets is converted to a gaming table and there's sometimes even more than two players on a table (like a 3-vs-3 match a couple weeks ago). With all those people playing games, they see stuff on the shelves, they're already thinking post-game about "How do I make my army play or look better?" and they're likely to grab something.

But it goes even further than that. See, the Internet gives us a wide array of places to buy from. It doesn't, however, give us that place to play games. People will spend money at a store to keep that location for meeting people and playing games alive. If your store doesn't have a reason for people to keep coming back (i.e. tables), they'll look somewhere else to spend their money, because they won't have as much "loyalty" to the shop. I try to make sure I buy stuff at the local GW because that's where I play games most of the time. I'm torn on getting Forge World stuff because there's no way it'd count as sales for the manager of the store, so that's taking part of my gaming budget away from keeping that store going. Given that choice, I'll lean toward making a purchase at the store. The same thing happens anywhere I actually play, and I'm not the exception there.

Someone above claimed PP has a WM/H forum because there isn't one elsewhere on the Internet. That's not accurate. GW tried to make their own forums at one point despite them being elsewhere, but they didn't like the idea of people actually being able to say how they felt about the company. (Granted, at one point they also used really bad software.) PP having that forum likely cuts down on the number of forums elsewhere the same way that Blizzard having a forum for WoW does: People will gravitate more toward the official forums for a game/company, especially if they feel they might be heard by that company. PP got ahead of the curve there.

GW's "customer outreach" is laughable. Maybe in England people think it's good because they have all those stores. But no, it's not. They shut down all their social media, much like the forums, so they wouldn't have to deal with the customers actually communicating concerns to them. They've become ultra-secretive to the point that even their retail managers have a hard time knowing what's coming up, which impacts the ability of customers to plan purchases, or managers planning events or sales strategies. They don't actively collect questions for FAQ any more (and rarely update them). They shut down the Outrider system that was actively geared at outreach (and preemptively killed the Pathfinder program that was meant to replace it). They keep making decisions to close off more and more avenues of communication with the customers, insulating themselves from any feedback they might not want to hear. That's the exact opposite of customer outreach.

And to excuse that insular attitude with "but there's trolls out there!" is a lame excuse. Blizzard gets hit hard by people who don't play their games and just show up to bash the games, or complain about the community, or whatever... and yet they keep on going strong. You can work around those people, or even work to calm them down. But that's if you actually care about the customers. Nah, caring about the customers might cost some money, and heaven forbid anyone see a negative opinion about GW. Better to shut it all down!

[40kGamer]

When I'm musing on GW and the love hate relationship a lot of us have with them I always come back to this quote:

“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”
― Maya Angelou

...and from an American perspective GW makes me feel uninvolved, unengaged and unimportant as a customer... and the way they interact with our FLGS makes me downright angry! I get very excited about products and offerings but continually feel totally out of sync with their corporate policies. And as we know, perception > reality all day, every day.

Does this even matter? Well I'm one of 'the' miniature fanboys and have been a poster child GW fanboy for decadess. I can field every army for every tabletop game they have ever produced and historically picked up everything they released. But now I don't bother... they get 20% or less of my hobby dollars vs the 90% they used too.

[40kGamer]

I know what you mean their prescene on the high street so I can pop in and play is essential. Oh wait, no that doesn't happen.

Different part of the world mate. My local GW store had absolutely no reason to open as this area is well served by large FLGS's that have been in business for decades. The FLGS's have 15 to 20 gaming tables, terrain and a dedicated play area that is separate from the retail area. The GW store is a freaking closet with 3 small cramped tables right in the middle of the retail area.

Privateer Press or FFG (X-wing) have absolutely no reason to open a store as the community is hundreds of people that all float through the big established FLGS's. If they want arrange pick up games for whatever they want to play. Their are certain nights of the week dedicated to each game where you are likely to find someone to play with on the fly or you can use social media to arrange a one off.

And a side note, Americans tend to get very attached to our FLGS's and the people who run them. Every time GW pulls a stunt like only offering the Thanquol End Times book direct it really pisses us lifelong gamers off.

- - - Updated - - -


And to excuse that insular attitude with "but there's trolls out there!" is a lame excuse. Blizzard gets hit hard by people who don't play their games and just show up to bash the games, or complain about the community, or whatever... and yet they keep on going strong. You can work around those people, or even work to calm them down. But that's if you actually care about the customers. Nah, caring about the customers might cost some money, and heaven forbid anyone see a negative opinion about GW. Better to shut it all down!

If you are confident in your customer base and company the trolls are harmless... dedicated customers either ignore or rebuff them for you. One of GW's perception problems is they are seen as having crossed the line from confident to arrogant.

http://blog.kaplanlsat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Screen-shot-2014-09-15-at-11.14.12-PM.png

[Mr Mystery]

Thing is, the Trolls for GW are particularly toxic.

Just look at Dakkadakka. Trolling and venom all over the shop. GW are their battered spouse - nothing is ever good enough, and it's all taken so personally.

Any topic soon devolves into mindless whining and complaining. Topic doesn't matter, the whining kicks in.

GW aim at being largely family friendly. Having Johnny 10,000 posts waddle in with his virtual BO and mouth breathing, then vomiting vitriol at anyone who, shock horror, happens to enjoy the game isn't worth the scant reward of having your own forum. If GW don't moderate, people complain. If GW moderate, people complain. If GW do anything in between, people complain. And it's the same people, time after time. Because it seems having a pop at a company is the most important thing in their lives. Which is pretty tragic when you think about it.

[DarkLink]

And that's solved not by retreating into your shell, but by taking measures to improve your relationship with the community. There will always be whiners, but when a company is on the right track with a good community relationship those whiners get drowned out quickly.

[daboarder]

And that's solved not by retreating into your shell, but by taking measures to improve your relationship with the community. There will always be whiners, but when a company is on the right track with a good community relationship those whiners get drowned out quickly.

Eddie and the good will the community had towards him would be the perfect example of this......

[Mr Mystery]

And that's solved not by retreating into your shell, but by taking measures to improve your relationship with the community. There will always be whiners, but when a company is on the right track with a good community relationship those whiners get drowned out quickly.

Sadly not the experience. The whiners just whine louder and louder, and use more swearing (I wouldn't say bad language, because I swear like a trooper). And Facebook posts can fill up fast.

[Charon]

Sadly not the experience. The whiners just whine louder and louder, and use more swearing (I wouldn't say bad language, because I swear like a trooper). And Facebook posts can fill up fast.

I wonder how virtually every other company on this planet handles this...
Oh wait... yeah... they still consider it feedback and weed out baseless whining and vocal minorities and dig for any gem they can find.
But I know. Holy GW is completely different, a special snowflake in a world where no other hobby industry exists.

[Denzark]

It is purely a matter of risk versus reward.

the risk is Little Timmy's mum will be put off by the one comment she sees and all the supportive comments of a newly energised fanbase (in the case of a hypothetical engagement push) won't make the difference to that one splosh of 'gamer autism'.

So they think it will be more harmful than good.

Because even if they started interacting there is no evidence this will massively affect profits - when they sell out of lines quickly anyway.

[Charon]

But on the other side little Timmys mum has no issues with the language and violence present in the game itself and lets him happily decorate his room with posters of his favorite gangster rapper. :D

[Path Walker]

I wonder how virtually every other company on this planet handles this...
Oh wait... yeah... they still consider it feedback and weed out baseless whining and vocal minorities and dig for any gem they can find.
But I know. Holy GW is completely different, a special snowflake in a world where no other hobby industry exists.

good job that not every company has to do business in the exact same way

[Mr Mystery]

But on the other side little Timmys mum has no issues with the language and violence present in the game itself and lets him happily decorate his room with posters of his favorite gangster rapper. :D

There isn't bad language in GW stuff though. Even the violence is somewhat muted. Certainly not the graphic violence you get in video games and that.

The other issue? The BO Brigade spam the topics so much, those looking for discussion go elsewhere, so post moderation of whining and swearing, there's very little left. Which of course the BO Brigade claim shows nobody likes said company, and then whine all the louder in their newly found echo chamber.

[Psychosplodge]

feth you gak head

[Charon]

There isn't bad language in GW stuff though. Even the violence is somewhat muted. Certainly not the graphic violence you get in video games and that.

The other issue? The BO Brigade spam the topics so much, those looking for discussion go elsewhere, so post moderation of whining and swearing, there's very little left. Which of course the BO Brigade claim shows nobody likes said company, and then whine all the louder in their newly found echo chamber.

And you know that because... ?
There are actually a huge number of forums for gaming that are quite the opposite and that with a bigger and more active fanbase. How could they do that? Mystery of nature I guess or magic... or free unicorns?

"Muted violence" mhm. Probably. If you buy Space Marines. Maybe eldar too if they don't mix and blend your internal organs to goo.
Not to speak of the models themselves and the art in the books.

[Psychosplodge]

Free unicorns is a good selling point though.

[Erik Setzer]

All of those arguments do tend to fail when Blizzard, for example, can fun multiple pages, and deal with trolls just fine. Not to mention running their own forum. You think GW gets special treatment from trolls? (I'm not talking about the many, MANY people with valid complaints.) That's a NO. If Massively posts a story even mentioning World of Warcraft, a bunch of people jump on there to insult the game and everyone playing it. People who I'm sure have never played WoW will jump on its Facebook page to sling insults. And yet Blizzard doesn't seem to have a problem keeping that from being an issue. But no, tell me how GW caters to a completely different age group and has an extremely different game.

As for the whole thing with "whole lines selling out," I could print five copies of a book I wrote, manage to get them sold, and then I guess I'm suddenly popular and can do no wrong? It's easy to sell out books when you didn't print that many of them and make it known they're a limited quantity.

[Eldar_Atog]

The other issue? The BO Brigade spam the topics so much, those looking for discussion go elsewhere, so post moderation of whining and swearing, there's very little left. Which of course the BO Brigade claim shows nobody likes said company, and then whine all the louder in their newly found echo chamber.

Your logic doesn't really play though. If that were the case, then how do any of the 40K/Fantasy forums survive? How do non GW employees manage to moderate this forum while GW employees couldn't do the same job? I've seen some trash on this forum... but I have also seen good discussions about game related and non game related stuff. The continued existence of BOLS disproves your theory. If this place is such a cesspool of trolls and spammers, then why do you continue to post?

[Lexington]

Thing is, the Trolls for GW are particularly toxic.
They're...not. They're really, really not. Games Workshop's troll-types (and customer base as a whole) are absolute kittens compared to those of Blizzard, or of video games generally. Video game developers are regularly subjected to personal harassment and death threats (especially female developers, which is a whole frightful discussion unto itself). "Swatting" of video game company employees has become a depressingly common occurrence. GamerGate exists. This is toxicity of a level that GW and its surrounding community will, thank goodness, never, ever, ever have to go through.

GW makes a niche product with a fictional world that's captured the imagination of a dedicated base who is invested, both financially and emotionally, in the product. The sort of abuse and vitriol GW takes, for a company in that niche, is pretty damn average. Look into the worlds of comic book fans, sci-fi/fantasy readers and the like, and you'll find the same griping, conspiracy theories and bad behavior that you see in GW's backyard. The companies that make these products all manage a social media presence to some degree. GW chooses not to anymore, but it's that choice that makes them different, not some special circumstance of an extra-crazy fanbase.

That said, I really don't think social media or other web-based engagement is or should be high on GW's priority list when it comes to solving the company's increasingly significant customer problem. We're coming up on what looks to be the third straight report of falling sales on a worldwide scale. Focusing on that kind of ancillary customer engagement right now is essentially trying to plug a pinhole leak while the hull is caving in. Bigger problems to solve.

[Path Walker]

I don't see why they'd want to bother though, running a forum is just having to police your fans and nerds in general are the worst fans, Blizzard has forums and they're the pits, whining and moaning about everything, they don't so much admin it as leave it to be the cesspool it is, throwing up the odd information post then retreating to a safe distance while the players complain. Same with pretty much every other MMO forums.

It doesn't benefit the company and makes the community seem more bitter, entitled and angry than it really is, so, why bother?

[Mr Mystery]

Dakkadakka. Seriously. I used that as example for good reason. Because of multiple boards, it's easier to keep one relatively Troll free.

But the company one? Troll Central. And whilst you're doing your best to engage with people, the Trolls keep Trolling, and that's not a good advert for your product.

Given GW have their stores for engagement, keeping a FB page clear of nonsense just doesn't seem as worth it.

[Eldar_Atog]

I don't see why they'd want to bother though, running a forum is just having to police your fans and nerds in general are the worst fans, Blizzard has forums and they're the pits, whining and moaning about everything, they don't so much admin it as leave it to be the cesspool it is, throwing up the odd information post then retreating to a safe distance while the players complain. Same with pretty much every other MMO forums.

It doesn't benefit the company and makes the community seem more bitter, entitled and angry than it really is, so, why bother?

Yet, Blizzard keeps paying money for the supposed cesspool. If there was no value in it, why should Blizzard (another publicly traded company) keep supporting the forums? There must be some value add.. otherwise the company would stop supporting it.

[Erik Setzer]

Dakkadakka. Seriously. I used that as example for good reason. Because of multiple boards, it's easier to keep one relatively Troll free.

But the company one? Troll Central. And whilst you're doing your best to engage with people, the Trolls keep Trolling, and that's not a good advert for your product.

Given GW have their stores for engagement, keeping a FB page clear of nonsense just doesn't seem as worth it.

There are lots of locations without a GW store anywhere around. Jacksonville didn't have one for a long time, just a bunch of independent game stores, and the owners weren't inclined to do GW's job of pushing products that GW does it best to circumvent them to sell. So if GW wants to reach people here, they have to do it directly, which is done via the Internet.

GW "trolls" are nothing. And there's pro-GW trolls too. What GW is most worried about is the number of valid complains people have, which would likely show up on their FB page, and they seem to seriously being the idea that if they don't see or hear the complaints, then no one else will, and their sales won't be hurt. That's not even remotely true, of course.

[Lexington]

Yet, Blizzard keeps paying money for the supposed cesspool. If there was no value in it, why should Blizzard (another publicly traded company) keep supporting the forums? There must be some value add.. otherwise the company would stop supporting it.
To play devil's advocate here, I don't think it's good to operate on the idea that "a publicly-traded company is doing it, so it must be smart." The fact is, all it means is that someone thinks it's smart, and is in a position of authority to make that decision. Publicly-traded companies aren't omniscient, and can often do stupid things. GW has been one of those companies for a while now, and they're currently paying the price for it.

Blizzard probably keeps it's forums around for roughly the same reason I imagine Privateer does - it's better to keep them than not to keep them. They're institutions, and they at least keep the discussion of their product centered in a place they can control, rather than dozens of smaller communities that they cannot effectively police without getting the legal system involved. These official forums probably aren't great places (tho Privateer's was maybe the best I've ever participated in back during the game's initial release a decade ago. Less so now), but they're better than the alternative.

GW, comparatively, doesn't really have that option. Their community's too big, too fragmented, and well beyond their control. This was true back when they tried to run their own forum, and it's even more true today. Who would even bother with it? They're never going to be as good as, say, amazing faction communities like the B&C or The WAAAGH!, or even more general discussion forums like this one. It's not something they need to get involved in anymore. The impetus is gone.

Facebook, tho? Twitter? That's a different sort of engagement, and one they had a solid enough handle on before they decided to suddenly close shop because of their own self-inflicted "Spots the Space Marine" embarrassment (let's remember that it wasn't the "trolls" that made GW shut down their own social media outlets, it was the wider public scrutiny). Forums are outdated technology that's been largely abandoned outside of fan communities. You can get by just fine without a forum. A company without a Facebook page in 2014, however? That's just weird.

[Eldar_Atog]

To play devil's advocate here, I don't think it's good to operate on the idea that "a publicly-traded company is doing it, so it must be smart." The fact is, all it means is that someone thinks it's smart, and is in a position of authority to make that decision. Publicly-traded companies aren't omniscient, and can often do stupid things. GW has been one of those companies for a while now, and they're currently paying the price for it.


For the most part, I agree with you. The reason I bring up another publicly traded company is that people balk when I try to compare GW to Privateer. "You can't compare GW to Privateer.. GW is this giant publicly traded company while Privateer is just a small privately owned company". If I compare GW to the other mini game companies, I have people whining about how I'm comparing apples to oranges and dismissing my argument without answering the substance of my comment.

[Path Walker]

For the most part, I agree with you. The reason I bring up another publicly traded company is that people balk when I try to compare GW to Privateer. "You can't compare GW to Privateer.. GW is this giant publicly traded company while Privateer is just a small privately owned company". If I compare GW to the other mini game companies, I have people whining about how I'm comparing apples to oranges and dismissing my argument without answering the substance of my comment.

I think at this point, its easier for Blizz to stick with the cesspool, for a company pulling in as much revenue as they do just from WoW subs, its a small price to pay and it keeps all the *****ing and moaning in one place, 10 years ago, having a forum was the done thing for a company making a game and now its just not worth turning off, GW are smaller and the expense was probably not justifiable when they get no real benefit from interacting with the customer base.

Aside from nicely painted armies, which GW already provide the community with pictures of, when was the last time a 40K forum was actually beneficial? Its mostly moaning idiots complaining about things because they don't have the money to buy all the things they want.

[Caitsidhe]

GW are smaller and the expense was probably not justifiable when they get no real benefit from interacting with the customer base.

Because small companies get no benefit from interacting with their customer base? :D

[Path Walker]

Because small companies get no benefit from interacting with their customer base? :D

In what way were the old forums beneficial to GW? They were compalining whining piles of garbage.

Why bother paying for that when others, like BoLS, will do that for you at no cost to yourself.

[Mr Mystery]

Because small companies get no benefit from interacting with their customer base? :D


Which they do through more traditional channels.

None of these other companies have an independant high street presence (odd statement I know given they sell through Indy stores). GW do. That's face to face interaction - the best kind. Sure people might have a whinge at the staff, but at least it won't be 'online offensive', on account those Keyboard Warriors are Keyboard Warriors for a reason.

Erik - to address your point about valid complaints. Yes. There are. I'm not going to sit in judgement on what is and isn't valid, because it would simply be a list of stuff I don't agree with etc. However, the Trolls are toxic to those as well, because they drown out constructive criticism, and indeed any attempt at a constructive dialogue. It's like trying to have a serious business meeting about concerns and practices and that, whilst in a room with a cageful of whooping Gibbons that have been given too much sugar, and a Red Bull drip feed.

[Caitsidhe]

In what way were the old forums beneficial to GW? They were compalining whining piles of garbage.

Why bother paying for that when others, like BoLS, will do that for you at no cost to yourself.

<chuckles> Have you looked around at BoLS lately? I hate to say it but there might be a dozen of us that post about Game Workshop on here regularly and they aren't getting anything useful from us. :D But the attitude you give voice to is probably very close to what they think... more is the pity. :D

[Path Walker]

<chuckles> Have you looked around at BoLS lately? I hate to say it but there might be a dozen of us that post about Game Workshop on here regularly and they aren't getting anything useful from us.

So, like I orginally said, nothing of use, so you're confirming my point here.

[Caitsidhe]

None of these other companies have an independant high street presence (odd statement I know given they sell through Indy stores). GW do. That's face to face interaction - the best kind. Sure people might have a whinge at the staff, but at least it won't be 'online offensive', on account those Keyboard Warriors are Keyboard Warriors for a reason.

If I were to accept your proposition as true (I don't) I would point out it is entirely worthless for learning anything about the American market because we hardly use Games Workshop stores. It would appear the information and feedback they are getting that way might correlate with the loss of sales in America. :D


Erik - to address your point about valid complaints. Yes. There are. I'm not going to sit in judgement on what is and isn't valid, because it would simply be a list of stuff I don't agree with etc. However, the Trolls are toxic to those as well, because they drown out constructive criticism, and indeed any attempt at a constructive dialogue. It's like trying to have a serious business meeting about concerns and practices and that, whilst in a room with a cageful of whooping Gibbons that have been given too much sugar, and a Red Bull drip feed.

Except that it isn't. :D Games Workshop (and to a large degree yourself) automatically dismiss ANY critique of the company regardless of how constructive it might be. Anyone who isn't a psychotic fanboy, not slavering over company, is called a Troll. :D Of course this has led to the slow but sure goblinization of people over time, as hardcore old fans slowly start to voice their objections and then get named Trolls for their trouble. Insulting and branding people in an us versus them manner is typical of companies living inside a BUBBLE.

[Caitsidhe]

So, like I orginally said, nothing of use, so you're confirming my point here.

Your mental capacity never ceases to thrill and entertain me. Every word is a gem. For me to confirm your point, BoLS would have to be an official website run by Games Workshop. :D Your point is they don't need one because they get all they need from other people doing it for free. I pointed out they are getting nothing from this website and somehow you found support in that. Go on... I'm all flush and eager...

[Path Walker]

Your mental capacity never ceases to thrill and entertain me. Every word is a gem. For me to confirm your point, BoLS would have to be an official website run by Games Workshop. :D Your point is they don't need one because they get all they need from other people doing it for free. I pointed out they are getting nothing from this website and somehow you found support in that. Go on... I'm all flush and eager...

I said they don't bother with a forum because forums don't contribute anything meaningful to the company, so why run one when other people will and they don't have to take on the expense.

You then stated that BoLS doesn't contribute anything meaningful to Games Workshop.

So, yeah, thats exactly what I said.

[Eldar_Atog]

Aside from nicely painted armies, which GW already provide the community with pictures of, when was the last time a 40K forum was actually beneficial? Its mostly moaning idiots complaining about things because they don't have the money to buy all the things they want.

And yet, here you are posting on a 40K forum. If there is no benefit to being here, why are you here?

[Path Walker]

And yet, here you are posting on a 40K forum. If there is no benefit to being here, why are you here?

It is of no benefit to the company.

And mostly I'm here to laugh at whatever is making people cry.

[40kGamer]

For the most part, I agree with you. The reason I bring up another publicly traded company is that people balk when I try to compare GW to Privateer. "You can't compare GW to Privateer.. GW is this giant publicly traded company while Privateer is just a small privately owned company". If I compare GW to the other mini game companies, I have people whining about how I'm comparing apples to oranges and dismissing my argument without answering the substance of my comment.

You can also use FFG as a public example going forward now that they are in the Asmodee fold. :)

[Eldar_Atog]

It is of no benefit to the company.

And mostly I'm here to laugh at whatever is making people cry.

Thanks for admitting that you are a troll :)

[Path Walker]

Thanks for admitting that you are a troll :)

No problem

[Caitsidhe]

I said they don't bother with a forum because forums don't contribute anything meaningful to the company, so why run one when other people will and they don't have to take on the expense.

You then stated that BoLS doesn't contribute anything meaningful to Games Workshop.

So, yeah, thats exactly what I said.

Can you elaborate on your diet, sleep habits, anything that might explain how? :D I enjoy the final product without knowing these mysteries but it still might be fun to know.

[Path Walker]

Can you elaborate on your diet, sleep habits, anything that might explain how? :D I enjoy the final product without knowing these mysteries but it still might be fun to know.

So rather than just admit that you were very silly in arguing both that GW needed a forum to interact with customers and that customers on a forum don't provide anything useful to GW, you make some sort of really lame dig?

If you're going to try and attack me, at least do it well.

[Caitsidhe]

So rather than just admit that you were very silly in arguing both that GW needed a forum to interact with customers and that customers on a forum don't provide anything useful to GW, you make some sort of really lame dig?

If you're going to try and attack me, at least do it well.

There isn't anything to argue. The point remains that Games Workshop made a foolish mistake in cutting off the interaction between themselves and their customers via the internet. Maintaining a single, official location wherein people come to talk about the game would give them more influences (not less) over the discussions. It would also make them seem far less like frightened children who cover their ears and make loud noises so they don't have to listen to things they disagree with.

And for the record, I'm not attacking you. I've not said a single negative thing. To the contrary, I've said I enjoy your every post. Every word is a gem. You are downright entertaining. Unlike the others, I encourage you to be yourself and SHINE. :D After all, what could I possibly say that does a better job of illustrating that essential Path Walkerness than you do yourself?

[Charon]

That's face to face interaction - the best kind.

Which face to face interaction?
You go into the shop, they try to sell you plastic.
You have a rules question, they don't know.
You would like to play a game, table to small and for promos only.
So what is the added value from this "face to face" interaction with a clueless drone working in retail?
Hobby tips? Forums (haha) with tutorials and Youtube does exist and in most cases it is way better and without the "only GW models do exist out there!" mantra.
Getting another Blister when yours was damaged? Online retail does exist. Damaged? Send it back. Don't want it? Send it back

[Eldar_Atog]

Which they do through more traditional channels.

None of these other companies have an independant high street presence (odd statement I know given they sell through Indy stores). GW do. That's face to face interaction - the best kind. Sure people might have a whinge at the staff, but at least it won't be 'online offensive', on account those Keyboard Warriors are Keyboard Warriors for a reason.


That varies depending on where you live. Up till about 2 years ago, I had access to the Battle Bunker in Memphis. Plenty of tables, good staff, reasonable hours. They then changed the store to a single staff member, stripped away every extra, and changed store hours to Noon till 6pm. If I want to go to the GW store, I have to rush out of work at 5 and pray that I don't hit a traffic snarl. It has turned my face to face interactions with GW into more of a chore than anything.

Now, I tend to just order online and swing by an indy store that supports several game companies. GW has, at best, a token presence there.

I would say that my scenario is becoming more the norm in the US. GW has a few one man stores scattered in the major cities and no online presence. It's not uncommon for people in the states to live 100-200 miles from a GW store. More and more, it is getting to the point where I have to come to Bols or another online forum if I want to talk about or hear news about 40K.

[40kGamer]

I would say that my scenario is becoming more the norm in the US. GW has a few one man stores scattered in the major cities and no online presence. It's not uncommon for people in the states to live 100-200 miles from a GW store. More and more, it is getting to the point where I have to come to Bols or another online forum if I want to talk about or hear news about 40K.

The store in Columbus OH is a one man show that should have never been opened! It's a joke compared to the Indy stores in the area.

[DarkLink]

None of these other companies have an independant high street presence (odd statement I know given they sell through Indy stores). GW do. That's face to face interaction - the best kind. Sure people might have a whinge at the staff, but at least it won't be 'online offensive', on account those Keyboard Warriors are Keyboard Warriors for a reason.


I've never been to a GW store, I've never seen a GW store, and I have no clue where the nearest GW store is, despite the fact that I live in a major city and have traveled to a number of other major cities to attend 40k events. GW stores don't even register on the map. Everything goes through FLGSs.

[Eldar_Atog]

I've never been to a GW store, I've never seen a GW store, and I have no clue where the nearest GW store is, despite the fact that I live in a major city and have traveled to a number of other major cities to attend 40k events. GW stores don't even register on the map. Everything goes through FLGSs.

I can see why. I looked up Sacramento on their site and about 30 indy retailers pop'd up. There are 2 GW stores within 100 miles of you but I truthfully wouldn't bother with them. They might be better stocked but I doubt they have much in the way of play area. Better to support a store that supports you.

[Erik Setzer]

Which face to face interaction?
You go into the shop, they try to sell you plastic.
You have a rules question, they don't know.
You would like to play a game, table to small and for promos only.
So what is the added value from this "face to face" interaction with a clueless drone working in retail?
Hobby tips? Forums (haha) with tutorials and Youtube does exist and in most cases it is way better and without the "only GW models do exist out there!" mantra.
Getting another Blister when yours was damaged? Online retail does exist. Damaged? Send it back. Don't want it? Send it back


Where the heck is your GW store?!? The one they opened locally has a guy running it who knows the hobby well, has been in it for over 20 years, remembers older editions, knows the rules and plays the games, has modeling tips for people constantly, helps people learn what there is to the hobby (because they need to know why they'd want to buy stuff before you can sell it to them), and is anything but clueless. He started with three tables, one of which had all the demo stuff set up on it, but got them to send him a fourth, and when he has an available table top (usually if someone left one at the store to use) and there's lots of people, he'll even convert the demo table over, so there's four 6x4 tables for people to play on. He also assembled and painted up a batch of building ruins people bought with a pool of collected money to use for the new city-style board.

Maybe we're just lucky here to have one of our own running the shop. Heck, he makes me want to spend money there to keep it running. I'd hope they'd want all their employees to be like that!

[Charon]

Where the heck is your GW store?!?

Austria. Small one.man shop with one table, approx 3x4 with a few trees on it. Placed in the middle of a small corridor with blister packages and boxes. So if someone stands at the table he is either blocking the fantasy products or the 40k products on the opposite side. If you stand on the short sides you either block the cash desk or stand in the only place they have to place their unpack new box shipments.

[DarkLink]

I can see why. I looked up Sacramento on their site and about 30 indy retailers pop'd up. There are 2 GW stores within 100 miles of you but I truthfully wouldn't bother with them. They might be better stocked but I doubt they have much in the way of play area. Better to support a store that supports you.

Exactly. And from what I've heard from a few of the other gamers, those two GW stores keep closing, moving, and reopening every year or two.

[Erik Setzer]

Austria. Small one.man shop with one table, approx 3x4 with a few trees on it. Placed in the middle of a small corridor with blister packages and boxes. So if someone stands at the table he is either blocking the fantasy products or the 40k products on the opposite side. If you stand on the short sides you either block the cash desk or stand in the only place they have to place their unpack new box shipments.

Ah... not so much a "store" as a hole in the wall where they can show off their products to people passing by and hope to attract some attention from street traffic.

I have no idea what stores and all in Austria are like, so can't comment much on that.

[Charon]

Ah... not so much a "store" as a hole in the wall where they can show off their products to people passing by and hope to attract some attention from street traffic.

I have no idea what stores and all in Austria are like, so can't comment much on that.

Yes basically.
They went down from a store with 4 tables and 3 or 4 staff members to this "hole in the wall".

[Denzark]

Ah... not so much a "store" as a hole in the wall where they can show off their products to people passing by and hope to attract some attention from street traffic.

I have no idea what stores and all in Austria are like, so can't comment much on that.


You have probably just described GW's business model...

Look, lets have some empathy here. GW have 2 types of customers. Existing and new.

Lets look at existing first. These people buy product. They buy enough product to make a profit for GW. They buy LE/SE product so fast that production runs recently have been sold out within 2 days of going online.

If they hate GW or are ‘difficult’ customers and deliberately only shop at FLGS, where is the benefit from GW engaging with them? How can you guarantee an increase in the only measurable metric that counts, profit – just from a FB page?

On the flip side, what could be wrong with a FB page?

Let me go to new customers. How do you get a new customer? I suggest 3 routes:

1. Existing customers bring them into the hobby. FB won’t change this.

2. New customer sees shop, pops in and decides that this is something for them. This does not change with a FB page, it also explains why the 1-man store is prevalent. 1 table for intro games. If they leave the hobby in 6 months with a half glued grey plastic army – because they couldn’t find anywhere to play – then so be it. But lets assume they have the gumption to find a club/FLGS – so they have somewhere to play so they stay in the hobby. GW benefits without the increased manning or shop space requirements. Win-win.

3. Mum wants a hobby for teen scrotebag to stop him from wasting time on computer games. Does research. Can find this game where it supposedly encourages, literacy, numeracy, interaction with others face-to-face, modelling and painting. (All this is on Mumsnet by the way). So she airs it and either the kid agrees so she buggers off and he can get back to being a scrote, or she springs it as a surprise. Now GW itself, both the webstore and the bricks and mortar, are a one-stop shop. A gaming system is self contained and all the supporting supplies are there. If mum tried to find her FLGS, its probably called the Orc’s Armpit or something equally witty. Whether website or not, the many different ranges make it all too difficult. Multiple game systems, scales and terrains, will confuse her. It is not as easy.

If they had a FB page, and Mum did see all the inevitable (absolutely inevitable) comments about GW, she would in all likelihood be put off. She has already decided to look at GW, public forum would only put the dampeners on that position.

It might work for Blizzard because there is a natural expectation that gamers are sweaty social retards with no graces delivering scathing attacks from their Mum’s basement or their gamer caves. It does not detract from the image when this is confirmed publicly – because people will game regardless.

However that is not the perception GW would want to encourage from the get go, where a potential new customer does a basic level of research.

There is absolutely no figures that prove GW would make increased profit by extra engagement with the community.

There is a real chance that doing so could damage the business by putting off new customers.

It is an easy decision from a risk management point of view.

[Caitsidhe]

All these odd, wonderful arguments as to why it is a great or good thing that Games Workshop has diminished their own company customer interaction. I mean, golly, sure it flies in the face of most common business sense but Games Workshop are wicked smart. Kirby says so, thus it must be true. And the proof will be in the pudding in what 2-3 days? :D We will be right back on topic and discussing the newest report in which we will see how well their cutting edge business practices are stunning the world and commentators like me. We might even be treated to another letter (although I doubt it) explaining, like Baldric, how this is all part of a cunning plan.

[Erik Setzer]

The one-man stores are actually a new thing, and it wasn't a shift based on marketing strategy, it was a shift to save money. Remember, these people are trying to claim now that they sell miniatures first and foremost, and the games only exist as a secondary thing to give people something to do with the figures they'd clearly buy in enormous amounts even without a game and setting to use them in (which is obviously a stupid belief). So why engage people with demos of how to play the games, or provide space for people to play games and demonstrate how fun gaming is? That's not The Hobby. The Hobby is collecting and painting toy soldiers, not playing games. You don't need gaming tables for that. All you need is space to hang the models, and space to show how to paint the models you're collecting. That whole game thing is unimportant. Save money by getting rid of the unnecessary gaming tables and cut down to one person.

Of course, a lot of GW managers know that's not how it works. Gaming is "The Hobby." It's not collecting toy soldiers (they're not "collector pieces" unless you need an insurance company to pay fair replacement value). For some people, sure, collecting and painting is the only thing they do, but they're the minority (and they have a LOT of options outside of GW). At least some stores can still let people play games (which works as a much better recruitment tool, because you're showing there's an active community to engage with).

Frankly, I think most of the stores could be shut down and it wouldn't really affect GW's sales, if they'd just be kinder to FLGS's. But they want direct sales, without putting in the effort or money to pull in those sales. It's just so weird for me, because I can see the stores being useful, but only if they actually had some money put into them, but GW doesn't want to put in that money though they do want their name on buildings. So you have a good idea hampered by bum execution just to save a few bucks.

[Path Walker]

The one-man stores are actually a new thing, and it wasn't a shift based on marketing strategy, it was a shift to save money. Remember, these people are trying to claim now that they sell miniatures first and foremost, and the games only exist as a secondary thing to give people something to do with the figures they'd clearly buy in enormous amounts even without a game and setting to use them in (which is obviously a stupid belief). So why engage people with demos of how to play the games, or provide space for people to play games and demonstrate how fun gaming is? That's not The Hobby. The Hobby is collecting and painting toy soldiers, not playing games. You don't need gaming tables for that. All you need is space to hang the models, and space to show how to paint the models you're collecting. That whole game thing is unimportant. Save money by getting rid of the unnecessary gaming tables and cut down to one person.

Of course, a lot of GW managers know that's not how it works. Gaming is "The Hobby." It's not collecting toy soldiers (they're not "collector pieces" unless you need an insurance company to pay fair replacement value). For some people, sure, collecting and painting is the only thing they do, but they're the minority (and they have a LOT of options outside of GW). At least some stores can still let people play games (which works as a much better recruitment tool, because you're showing there's an active community to engage with).

Frankly, I think most of the stores could be shut down and it wouldn't really affect GW's sales, if they'd just be kinder to FLGS's. But they want direct sales, without putting in the effort or money to pull in those sales. It's just so weird for me, because I can see the stores being useful, but only if they actually had some money put into them, but GW doesn't want to put in that money though they do want their name on buildings. So you have a good idea hampered by bum execution just to save a few bucks.

You have absolutely nothing to back up anything that you've claimed. Writing a lot of words is not the same as having a coherrent point.

[Eldar_Atog]

1. Existing customers bring them into the hobby. FB won’t change this.


You are wrong on this point. The nature of social media is expanding influence. There are so many things that I have learned about first on social media. Welcome to Night Vale, Star talk, multiple web comics, books, movies. Every time you share a company's post or follow a page.. your friends see it on their feed. At this point, social media is a much better advertiser than TV.. especially for a niche product.

Look.. if Comcast can manage their facebook page, then why can't GW? Compared to the hate that comcast gets, GW gets off easy.

[Denzark]

GW don't do external advertising, why would they therefore be bothered about the free advertising that social media represents?

@ Caitsidhe the point I am making, is that the current bottom line (Profit) is satisfactory to them. If it wasn't, they would do something different. The diminishing profits are satisfactory whilst they are maintaining current business practises - otherwise they would be changing.

Changing customer interaction methods represents (I think they think) more of a risk to that small margin, than the benefit doing the opposite would bring.

None of the nay-sayers are going to say 'wow I have been answered in my FAQ on FB - I will by an extra LR this month'. They just won't.

When someone walks into their FLGS and says 'hey wow I got an answer on GW twitter', their mates are not going to go 'wow I feel so engaged with. Here, I want to put this warmahordes stuff back on the shelf and buy a knight.'

When GW says 'yeah OK here is $100 of prizes for your tournament and you can hang up a GW banner' people are not going to say to their FLGS manager or club secretary 'yeah take my name off the X-wing tourney list I wan't to get into the 40K competition'.

When they feel things aren't satisfactory, they will change and we will know because we see it. Until then the only logical conclusion is that they are content with how things are.

I am not saying this is smart - but whilst things are in the black it is probably as safe as any safe option in this current financial climate.

[Caitsidhe]

@ Caitsidhe the point I am making, is that the current bottom line (Profit) is satisfactory to them. If it wasn't, they would do something different. The diminishing profits are satisfactory whilst they are maintaining current business practises - otherwise they would be changing.

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I've never heard of any business, particularly not a Corp. where diminishing sales are satisfactory to them as long as they don't have to change their business practices. :D But I'll play along...

Their current bottom line was managed only by cutting their own company to the bone. This involved layoffs, restructuring, closing stores, and all that jazz. Somehow they used to make MORE money (higher profits) with greater overhead. Something clearly changed. Your argument follows that they are satisfied now, so I guess they just weren't happy making more? Are they Monks and felt that their profits were just too high to be moral? :D

The larger question is whether or not they can stabilize their profits at all, i.e. whether they have hit the floor yet or not with all the cuts. I suspect not. They only managed to stay in the black by pink slipping a massive number of people. That doesn't increase sales. Without increasing sales a company is dying.

[Path Walker]

Letting people go isn't really a money saving exercise in the finacial year it happens, what with the consultation excercise, interviews, decision making and then redundancy pay (which i know I helped one member of staff double the original offer), in the short term, its not much of a saving, if, as you're saying, a lot of people were let go this year, we won't see the impact of the reduced overheads until next year.

Also, as has been pointed out to you before, other companies in the UK in retail have all had a bad year, this has an impact on GW, but they've made a decent profit and put in place infastructure to improve on these profits next year, setting up the website (with the new release schedule, its obvious why they paid out for this, the new site is much better for getting people to the new things, last fridays blip not withstanding) they also paid out a dividend to share holders again, which they could have easily used for reinvestment instead but chose to keep their share holders happy.

Maybe you should get a more interesting hobby that trying to make GW seem like a failing company, because you're not very good at it.

[Caitsidhe]

Letting people go isn't really a money saving exercise in the finacial year it happens, what with the consultation excercise, interviews, decision making and then redundancy pay (which i know I helped one member of staff double the original offer), in the short term, its not much of a saving, if, as you're saying, a lot of people were let go this year, we won't see the impact of the reduced overheads until next year.

Also, as has been pointed out to you before, other companies in the UK in retail have all had a bad year, this has an impact on GW, but they've made a decent profit and put in place infastructure to improve on these profits next year, setting up the website (with the new release schedule, its obvious why they paid out for this, the new site is much better for getting people to the new things, last fridays blip not withstanding) they also paid out a dividend to share holders again, which they could have easily used for reinvestment instead but chose to keep their share holders happy.

Maybe you should get a more interesting hobby that trying to make GW seem like a failing company, because you're not very good at it.

Actually the new site was an excuse to pay an obscene amount of money to someone, i.e. a way to funnel money out of the company. For what they got, they overpaid about 4x the industry standard. :D Shall we pop up what they paid for their new site, pop up the standard costs, and post the names of those involved. :D

[Path Walker]

I am sure we're all well aware of the implications you're making but you have no idea of the type of contract that was for, or any of the details beyond the names involed, embezzlement is a pretty strong accusation to make.

[Caitsidhe]

I am sure we're all well aware of the implications you're making but you have no idea of the type of contract that was for, or any of the details beyond the names involed, embezzlement is a pretty strong accusation to make.

<chuckles> It wasn't embezzlement. It was just bad management and cronyism. Embezzlement isn't all out in the open. :D For whatever reason, the company just decided to overpay for a service to someone who just happens.... you get the idea.

[Eldar_Atog]

GW don't do external advertising, why would they therefore be bothered about the free advertising that social media represents?


I see where you are coming from but follow me down the rabbit hole for a sec. Their stores, their books, computer games... these are all external advertising. If they didn't want any external advertising, they'd have to pull all their product into just an online store.

I do disagree with your idea of engagement. Think of it almost like dating 2 women/men. One woman/man is really pretty but it's hard to interact with them. They don't talk to you much and seem only interested in you as a financial support. There is little engagement there. The other woman/man is not quite as pretty but you enjoy your time with them more. They call you, laugh, joke.. basically they seem to enjoy your company. You are probably much more engaged with this person

I've probably made a mess of describing it but it all comes down to this. We tend to want to interact with the things that we enjoy or make us feel valued. A mentally balanced person will probably not engage with someone that does not seem to value them.

[Denzark]

EA - you haven't made a mess of describing it, its very succinct.

To go back to your final comments:

We tend to want to interact with the things that we enjoy or make us feel valued.

Well enough people must be interacting with GW as a thing that they enjoy or makes them feel valued, for GW to make a profit they are happy with - or they would change their policy/model to make people want to interact with them more or make people feel more valued thus bringing in more profit.

A mentally balanced person will probably not engage with someone that does not seem to value them.

Well either sufficiently mentally unbalanced people are engaging with them even though GW does not seem to value them, for GW to make a profit they are happy with, or this does not run correct.


If there were figures from within the relevant business area that would tell GW '8 out of 10 companies saw revenues increase x% by doing y' (in this case y is increased engagement) then they would probably do y as long as the cost of doing y is less than the increase x.

I can only assume therefore that they have not got any substantive figures that indicate that will be the case.

[Erik Setzer]

You have absolutely nothing to back up anything that you've claimed. Writing a lot of words is not the same as having a coherrent point.

I'd be annoyed by such a stupid comment if you weren't an obvious troll. But hey, let's back a lot of it:

1. The one-man store move is recent. That's even mentioned in their reports.
2. The one-man store move is meant to save money. I don't recall if they absolutely said this in their reports, but it's pretty obvious. You spend less money on one person's salary than on multiple salaries.
3. Games Workshop has been saving in the past 3-4 years (maybe five, but no further) that they are a miniatures company, and even changed the 40K rulebook to state that the game is there for you to have something to do with the figures you're buying. Now, it's possible they don't actually believe this, but why even try pushing that message, then?
4. Go all over the Internet, into stores, everywhere you can, and poll people. You'll find that the majority by far buy the figures because they play the games. Some people buy the figures without the games and would do so with no games, but if the games suddenly disappeared, GW would be seriously in the red.
5. People are more likely to buy a product when they see it in use, and entertainment is no different. This is Marketing 101, buddy. The best demonstration is showing off people using your product, in this case that would be gaming. Further, bringing people in to game makes them more likely to do impulse purchases. This is why most game stores have gaming tables. (But then, they also don't call themselves "miniatures stores" or "book stores.")
6. If I had access to the sales data, I'd bet that the local GW store picked up sales when it got in a third gaming table. Despite having a lot of selection of locations to play in town, people play at the GW store because it actually has the space to do so, and the manager is good at engaging with the customers. With them playing their games there, people want to make purchases there to support the store... which in turn puts money directly into GW's coffers, no retailers to go through. There are guys who are iffy on buying Forge World (myself included) because that money wouldn't flow through the store, and we want that store to remain there. It's customer loyalty. It might cost some money, but I'd bet that store being there has caused many of us to spend a lot more with GW than we otherwise would have. Heck, the fact that we're playing in a store with no competing games means we aren't tempted by the other games. If they leave us to go to another store, we might get sucked into Infinity, or Malifaux, or X-Wing, or WM/H. There's still interest in those games, but people opt not to buy into them because they know there's people to play with (and gaming space) at the local GW store.

So yeah, buddy, I've got a lot to back up multiple things I said.

Being a troll certainly doesn't make you coherent, it just makes you annoying. Maybe stop trolling? You'd have so much more free time.

[Denzark]

Erik

In the UK you can put money through your local GW by buying gift vouchers and then using them to pay for FW, don't know how that would work in US but its good here.

[40kGamer]

FW availability is a prickly point for a lot of us in the states... and paying the implicit VAT tax on FW orders is particularly frustrating.

[Mr Mystery]

Regarding VAT seems FW and GW don't have much choice (https://www.gov.uk/vat-exports-dispatches-and-supplying-goods-abroad).

Unless it's a Trade account, they have to pay the VAT, regardless of where the goods show up. If you're VAT registered elsewhere in the EU, it's different, but most customers won't be. Yes, a Trade Account could order FW stock for their store - but there's little financial incentive to do that for any party as long as FW don't offer wholesale prices the way GW does.

[40kGamer]

Regarding VAT seems FW and GW don't have much choice (https://www.gov.uk/vat-exports-dispatches-and-supplying-goods-abroad).

Unless it's a Trade account, they have to pay the VAT, regardless of where the goods show up. If you're VAT registered elsewhere in the EU, it's different, but most customers won't be. Yes, a Trade Account could order FW stock for their store - but there's little financial incentive to do that for any party as long as FW don't offer wholesale prices the way GW does.

It's the fact that the US is not in the EU so FW gets a full credit for the VAT included in the sales price. This is from the article you linked.

VAT on exports to non-EU countries
VAT is a tax on goods used in the EU, so if goods are exported outside the EU, VAT isn’t charged. You can zero-rate the sale, provided you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other laws. You must also make sure the goods are exported, and you must get the evidence, within three months from the time of sale. This can be longer for goods that need processing before export and for thoroughbred racehorses.

The time of sale is the earlier of:

the day you send the goods to your customer
the day you receive full payment for them
You mustn’t zero-rate sales if your customer asks for them to be delivered to a UK address. If the customer arranges to collect them from you, an indirect export, you may be able to zero-rate the sale as long as certain zero-rating conditions are met.

- - - Updated - - -

So in essence they end up charging US (and other non EU customers) an extra 20% for the product.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah fair enough. Missed that bit.

[Eldar_Atog]

EA - you haven't made a mess of describing it, its very succinct.

Cool, I tend to ramble sometimes :)



We tend to want to interact with the things that we enjoy or make us feel valued.

Well enough people must be interacting with GW as a thing that they enjoy or makes them feel valued, for GW to make a profit they are happy with - or they would change their policy/model to make people want to interact with them more or make people feel more valued thus bringing in more profit.


You might be right in interpretting GW's actions.. but it doesn't make any sense if they want a growing, healthy company. The only time stagnation looks good is when you are in the death spiral. I've been working within corps for years and I've never seen a business person choose stagnation over growth.

[40kGamer]

Ah fair enough. Missed that bit.

No biggie... I have always hoped they did this to cover the cost of shipping since it's pretty easy to get the free shipping with them. :p

- - - Updated - - -


The only time stagnation looks good is when you are in the death spiral. I've been working within corps for years and I've never seen a business person choose stagnation over growth.

Perhaps GW has fallen prey to their own fluff! After all the Imperium has been frozen in time for 10,000 years! :D

[Mr Mystery]

Yet Warhammer getting a new method of play would seem to suggest they do have an interest in changing things up.

Some of the rumours seem to suggest it's all being scrapped, but the releases for End Times kind of fly in the face of that. Reliable rumourmonger Harry seems to think that whatever is coming is meant to sit alongside 8th Ed, rather than replace it.

If this works, we might see the same thing happen with 40k - the enabling of smaller scale play. I mean, it does do that quite well at the moment, but a rules set with extra finnickety stuff to make the game experience more involved could be cool. If anyone else has them, there's a really cool subset of rules in the third Horus Heresy book (maybe the second? Got the last three within weeks of each other and my memory is scrambled). With that, you can mix and match Legions in your force, and you have rules for running out of ammo. Somewhere between current 40k and old Necromunda is the best way to look at it.

Warhammer is arguably a safer prospect. If as many claim it's on it's last legs (not borne out in my local community, but hey, perspective and that) then they have nothing to lose with a good old tinkering.

As for it being a kneejerk reaction? Nah. Don't buy it. Games are in development for yonks. Even printing enough for a new release needs considerable logistics - writing the rules, page setting, proofing, printing, binding, shipping and so on.

Overall, I'm finding these to be interesting times.

[Lexington]

@ Caitsidhe the point I am making, is that the current bottom line (Profit) is satisfactory to them. If it wasn't, they would do something different. The diminishing profits are satisfactory whilst they are maintaining current business practises - otherwise they would be changing.
I really don't think either of those claims - that GW is satisfied with their current sales situation, or that they're not changing - have much evidence behind them. In fact, I'd say the opposite is rather obviously true - GW is extremely dissatisfied with their current sales, and that they're desperately trying to change their business in order to fix it. Look at the enormous overhaul to WHFB that's in the works, the accelerated release schedule, the increase in splash and "Limited Edition" releases, etc. This is a company that's trying hard to reverse a trend that they know will, within a few years, leave them open to being taken over or simply going out of business.

[40kGamer]

As for it being a kneejerk reaction? Nah. Don't buy it. Games are in development for yonks. Even printing enough for a new release needs considerable logistics - writing the rules, page setting, proofing, printing, binding, shipping and so on.


Unless GW has changed up their internal workings (which I doubt) they should have 1-2 years of product already developed and ready to go, so I don't really think they make knee jerk reactions either. They've never came across as an agile company. :)

And I also agree that these are very interesting times. Who knows, something awesome may come out of the other side of the turbulence.

[Erik Setzer]

I really don't think either of those claims - that GW is satisfied with their current sales situation, or that they're not changing - have much evidence behind them. In fact, I'd say the opposite is rather obviously true - GW is extremely dissatisfied with their current sales, and that they're desperately trying to change their business in order to fix it. Look at the enormous overhaul to WHFB that's in the works, the accelerated release schedule, the increase in splash and "Limited Edition" releases, etc. This is a company that's trying hard to reverse a trend that they know will, within a few years, leave them open to being taken over or simply going out of business.


I feel like some of the stuff has been an effort to reverse the course... but they've also maintained some of the decisions causing them trouble by alienating customers. So far it looks like more expensive splash releases isn't really doing the trick, and a new edition of their flagship game didn't even do much. If completely redoing Warhammer doesn't, then how many tricks do they have left before they finally realize that maybe remembering they grew as a games company and should try to earn the love of their customers rather than ire?

What happens if they reach a point where all they're left with is trying to release splash release after splash release to bleed whatever's left from their existing customers? How long is that sustainable?

No idea what they might have up their sleeves, but it needs to be more than just redoing Warhammer to be like 40K and WM/H.

[Caitsidhe]

I think it is very clear that they are trying to change course, but sadly they are not reversing course. They will have to be dragged kicking and screaming all the way into admitting that:

1) They are a game company.
2) Their rules are currently a liability.
3) Their products are not truly collectibles because they only depreciate.
4) They cost too much.
5) That reversing the current trends is going to require them to do everything they claim they won't. :D

The larger problem is that somehow they have convinced themselves that they can use a modified sales plan not unlike Wizards of the Coast does with Magic cards. The difference being that Magic cards are cheap and hence that plan largely works. It functions in the same way a slot machine at a Casino does, wherein you bleed people continually with paper cuts. Games Workshop wants to use that strategy but isn't adopting that pricing strategy. It won't work. You only get High Rollers at certain tables due to the buy in and there aren't enough High Rollers in the target demographic to support Games Workshop.

[Lexington]

I feel like some of the stuff has been an effort to reverse the course... but they've also maintained some of the decisions causing them trouble by alienating customers.
Agreed in full. My objection is to the idea that they're not trying - they clearly are, it just doesn't seem to be working very well. I really think their problems are deeper than they think, and relate to how they've re-structured their business over the last several years, and a lot of mistaken ideas at the top about what their customers actually want.

[Caitsidhe]

Agreed in full. My objection is to the idea that they're not trying - they clearly are, it just doesn't seem to be working very well. I really think their problems are deeper than they think, and relate to how they've re-structured their business over the last several years, and a lot of mistaken ideas at the top about what their customers actually want.

Bingo.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. You can't please all of the people, all of the time - and to try that would be difficult at best, and a fools errand at worst.

Price comes up again. Of course it does. Anyone who says 'no, I wouldn't keep buying if they lowered the price' is clearly either lying, or 'touched' as they used to call it. But, if we look across games, the actual prices for boxed sets are largely comparable.

What GW have seemingly/allegedly lost sight of is the entry point. Other games can be played at a lower entry cost. As I've gibbered about numerous times in other threads, and quite possibly this one - there is nothing wrong with a game that can deliver large scale combat. It's fun, and GW still hold that niche for SciFi and Fantasy gaming pretty much to themselves. Newer games don't really have mechanics (at least, at present) that allow upscaling of the battle. This is mostly part of an unavoidable organic process of the gaming community. The longer we play, the more stuff we have for the game, and it's a rare gamer indeed who wouldn't relish the chance to pile everything on the table and have at it, six-nowt till the Cows come home.

But, something went awry at some point, particularly in Warhammer, and the perceived entry level force became what was once considered a fairly large force. The perceived minimum 'worth it' points come both from GW, and the community. One feeds into another. The games were streamlined from Rogue Trader to 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed to allow us to field a larger proportion of our collections, as was our want. 40k hasn't suffered as badly as Warhammer from that though, mostly because 40k has remained, and always has been, predominantly a skirmish oriented game in terms of rules, if not scope.

Difference between Warhammer and 40k at small points? In Warhammer, you might have three or four units, not including characters, which move as single blocks, and most of the fun stuff isn't exactly cheap. 40k might have the same number of units, but because you moved the models as individuals within the rules of coherency, it feels like you're doing more (hugging terrain, staying out of sight etc).

But this new thing coming? Apparently it's akin to Super Mordheim from the various rumours - that seems to be constant (though whether it's people embellishing reliable rumours to appear to have new info). Which means small points games might well end up more 40k like in terms of the options open to you. Take away that movement tray and suddenly, even if the rest of the rules don't change, it feels like you're doing more.

Good example of adaptation? LotR SBG to Hobbit SBG. The majority of the mechanics are identical. You move, shoot and fight in exactly the same way. But, they introduced new rules for different hand weapon types. Pretty small addition, but did change up how you fight. Instead of simply 'bloke with HW&S in front, buddy with spear behind' (classic and pretty pokey. Pun!) you now have additional levels of choice. More choice, more options, different challenges. Game play feels more involved, even though the change is predominantly pretty cosmetic.

Anyways, I'm aware I'm somewhat waffling and digressing.

If GW crack getting Warhammer to work at a skirmish level, and keep the current rules - they've quite possibly done away with the higher entry barrier to Warhammer. If someone can pick up three, maybe four boxes of models and have a field worthy army out of that? They will pick up players. Warhammer as it stands is a really solid system. Some claim there's tiers of potency, but as a (very) long term Warhammer player, I can tell you it's around 40% what's in your army, and 60% what you do with it. Anyone trying to bludgeon their way to victory is at a disadvantage to someone with their eye on the flanks :)

So in short - they don't need to reduce the price so much (Warmahordes boxes are price comparable), they just need to tackle the cost, and this forthcoming Warhammer Thing might just be the ticket.

[Caitsidhe]

So in short - they don't need to reduce the price so much (Warmahordes boxes are price comparable), they just need to tackle the cost, and this forthcoming Warhammer Thing might just be the ticket.

In fairness, this is "possible," but problematic. Look, we agree that the entry cost is a huge problem. However, an add-on which supposedly will make small unit tactics work isn't (at least not in my opinion) going to solve their issues. The smaller armies are not going to act as gateway drugs to larger ones. :D There are a couple of problems to this approach:

1. It is WAY WAY TOO LATE. This is because that niche has already been filled by multiple companies and their rules are simply better. Small unit tactics are all about good rules. They aren't random. Privateer is king in this area but there are other games out there too. Diving into this market means going up against people who have been designing this level of game for a long time and have a much better record with rules.

2. It undermines the other product. Let's say you are right Mr. Mystery and this isn't a new edition but an add-on. This newer, smaller game only requires a few units and is really well designed. Let's say people have a lot of fun with it. Why should they EVERY go back to the problem-riddled larger game? Won't most of them just find their level and play the smaller unit game? It won't compete with Privateer or the other smaller unit tactics, it will compete with Games Workshop's other lines, i.e. they will just use their existing models to play down. There is no issue getting used Games Workshop crap either. This is kind of why I don't think it will be an add-on. Nobody would have to buy anything. :D

3. What makes Games Workshop special is that they are the ONLY game that plays large scale tactics. That is their niche. I won't say they do it well (they don't) but they are the only people really doing it. What they need to do is get the prices down so that the entry point on large armies is lower. They have industrialized production, a distribution network, and plenty of know-how. They should be able to do this and utterly destroy their competition by undercutting them. They should be able to opt for a much lower margin and make their profits bulk. They make toy soldiers. They need to come to grips with that and take advantage of their market advantages to snuff their competition. If they lose anymore of their market advantage they will no longer be able to do this. They will be trapped in the high margins because they can no longer afford to do anything else. Nobody competes with them for big scale battles. They need to take advantage of that while they can. Trying to make poor man copies of other companies isn't going to staunch their bleeding.

Contrary to popular belief, I would rather Games Workshop get their groove back. I'm simply pragmatic about events. The writing is on the wall, but they don't like what it says. They simply have to do what Dominos Pizza did here in the states and say, "We screwed up but we are going to fix it and get you back."

[Mr Mystery]

Target price? Who knows. I'm willing to bet everyone will have their own opinion.

But speaking purely for myself? Not including rules (as most newcomers would pick up whatever constitutes a starter set, throwing typical force costs out the window) I'd say £100-£150. That's the sort of price bracket I can spend on a relative whim (I'm not Mr Megabucks, but that's a price I could commit to without prior planning for the rest of my disposable income). It's comparable to what I spent getting into X-Wing (though rapidly escalated. Being a Star Wars nut will do that anyway).

What they also need to do is not prevent me from going mental and spending £500 on a massive force. Current Warhammer more than caters to that end of the scale, and as I mentioned above, it's a pretty solid rules set. Majority of rule issues come from either not reading the rule in full, not liking what is actually written, or from older books from a previous edition not quite meshing that well. Balance is pretty good overall, particularly when you consider the sheer number of variables inherent in a game with over a dozen possible army choices, and gods know how many permutations can make up a single army chosen from said lists.

[Denzark]

I really don't think either of those claims - that GW is satisfied with their current sales situation, or that they're not changing - have much evidence behind them. In fact, I'd say the opposite is rather obviously true - GW is extremely dissatisfied with their current sales, and that they're desperately trying to change their business in order to fix it. Look at the enormous overhaul to WHFB that's in the works, the accelerated release schedule, the increase in splash and "Limited Edition" releases, etc. This is a company that's trying hard to reverse a trend that they know will, within a few years, leave them open to being taken over or simply going out of business.

Ah sorry. To be clear I am focussing on the need to change to engage with 'the community' more thus getting free hugs and extra dinero out of people. They simply don't find it necessary or they would.

Also, the only dissatisfaction to be had with splash/LE releases, is that when they sell out within 3 days, is that an increase in print run would equally have sold out.

- - - Updated - - -


I think it is very clear that they are trying to change course, but sadly they are not reversing course. They will have to be dragged kicking and screaming all the way into admitting that:

1) They are a game company.

They may need to admit this but they won't get it from 'the community'.

2) Their rules are currently a liability.

That people still buy no matter how crap they supposedly are.

3) Their products are not truly collectibles because they only depreciate.

I suggest you go on ebay and search for Squats. Oh sorry, a current example? Void shield generator or Space Hulk 3rd Ed.

4) They cost too much.

Yet people still buy enough to keep them in profit - go figure.

5) That reversing the current trends is going to require them to do everything they claim they won't. :D

I'm not sure 100% what this means but that will not be achieved whilst my answer to 4 is still the case.

The larger problem is that somehow they have convinced themselves that they can use a modified sales plan not unlike Wizards of the Coast does with Magic cards. The difference being that Magic cards are cheap and hence that plan largely works. It functions in the same way a slot machine at a Casino does, wherein you bleed people continually with paper cuts. Games Workshop wants to use that strategy but isn't adopting that pricing strategy. It won't work. You only get High Rollers at certain tables due to the buy in and there aren't enough High Rollers in the target demographic to support Games Workshop.

Anyone who buys plastic crack at these prices is a high roller...

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed in full. My objection is to the idea that they're not trying - they clearly are, it just doesn't seem to be working very well. I really think their problems are deeper than they think, and relate to how they've re-structured their business over the last several years, and a lot of mistaken ideas at the top about what their customers actually want.

I don't think the lessening cash flow, is lessening nor has lessened, sufficiently for those at the top to consider that their assessment of what customers want, is so badly wrong. How can this be your conclusion when you produce 2000 of an item and it flies off the shelf in 24 hours? The conclusion most external observers would draw is that they know exactly what customers want.

(NB not my opinion, just what I think they think.)

[Mr Mystery]

Engagement wise, given it's a physical product, their shops do far more than their competitors. Yes, PP and FFG sponsor tournaments, but they themselves don't contribute much in terms of showing me how to be a hobbyist.

Yes it varies wildly from country to country, but GW stores here in UK offer me a lot, even as a long term gamer (I don't like the word 'veteran'. But that's another thread in itself). It's a hub for hobby activity. I can rock up on gaming night and get a game, no trouble. It's GW stores that taught me to paint (still cack at it), and showed me how to assemble the large models (pinning etc). All that was part and parcel of the price I was, and continue, to pay for the models. Some might say it's free, and to a certain degree it is, after a fashion, but for arguments sake it's added value to the price on the box. They engender a friendly community, and Warhammer World itself is a pretty bold statement of that intent. They host Tournaments, yet always, always keep tables free for random gamers to wander in and have a game.

Competitive Play isn't something they feel to be all that important to their success. It's something the community provides for itself for the most part - and indeed local FLGS provide the prize support where they want to. I'd say that's actually fairly useful to the FLGS, as although it comes at some cost in terms of stumping up the goodies, it gives them plenty free advertising, which if done through a competent tournament (and not Johnny Powergamer rigging it for his mates for instance) is pretty much priceless, and well worth the investment of a few kits.

It's not going to take much for GW to get things growing again. They took a big hit when LotR popped, but that was always known, and crucially, even at the lowest ebb post LotR, they were still significantly up on pre-LotR. This year? Constant currency, takings were down 6.2%ish (can't be arsed to check the actual figure. I'm being lazy tonight). Yes, it's not something you can call insignificant, but it's hardly a collapse of their market.

The start of this thread? A profits warning that they're looking to be about £1,000,000 on where they predicted. Not a great result on the face of it. But, also depends on what their prediction was in the first place, no? Statement says they've fallen foul of a strong pound and that. I don't know enough about economics to say if that's feasible, but given they are regulated, and have their books independently verified, I really don't see why they'd just make that up.

What we see now is a real opportunity to get people buying more. Both us existing hobbyists, and newcomers. End Times has certainly got me spending a lot more since it started. I've kept pace with the books (£195 so far) and bought a few of the kits (Glottkin, Maggoth Rider, two lots of Blightkings and Gutrot Spume - £205). That's a good deal more than I spent last year. It's not easy getting money out of someone who already has large armies! Previous 12 months I don't think I bought any models, just kept pace with the Codex and Army Books (and managed to fall behind on Codex front..) The price has nothing to do with it - I've just been doing other things (working, drinking, home making, LARPing, drinking, eating out, drinking, commuting, drinking, working). But now they've given me something really cool to wazz money at, they're getting it.

And I know I'm not the only one feeling new wind in their Warhammer Sails.

[Eldar_Atog]

Target price? Who knows. I'm willing to bet everyone will have their own opinion.

But speaking purely for myself? Not including rules (as most newcomers would pick up whatever constitutes a starter set, throwing typical force costs out the window) I'd say £100-£150.

Yeah, I'm in a similar position unless an emergency pops up. The prices for the models themselves are not a major stumbling block... if the quality is there. GW's models are always nice so price is not an obstacle (excluding forgeworld prices). My major axe to grind is that the rules quality and rules price do not match at all. It feels like I pay the price for a 18 year old bottle of scotch and find a bottle of rottgut beer (Fosters, natural lite, pick your poison). The quality of their rules leaves much to be desired.

I'm not saying that they aren't pricing themselves out of business though. I've gotten to the point where I try to steer potential players away from GW products. With how expensive everything is now, there are not a lot of people that afford to start playing GW. If a hobby is not getting new members, then it will eventually die off.

[Mr Mystery]

They're also tackling cost from another angle - reducing it via plastic kits.

Tyranids recently got a decent cost-effective boost with Zoanthropes moving to plastic, and being dual-kitted with Venomthropes. Single box, and that's two units for a small Tyranid army (two Zoanthropes for the dakka, one Venomthrope for the cover). Previously, those models were, what, £18 a chuck, for a total of £54. Now, they're £40, and in a much more user friendly material.

Army boxes also offer a decent saving, and a good block of stuff you'll probably be wanting anyways.

Other notable additions to plastic this past year or so? Ogryns and Wraithguard. Previously, hideously expensive to put in your army, because metal. Now? Much cheaper. Cadian Armoured fist - 10 spods and a Chimera, all at a discount.

This is something many miss when considering the prices.

[Mr Mystery]

More general thoughts on prices and that.

For me, GW offer the best value kits in terms of the actual 'niceness' of the models.

Consider the sculpt and kit quality of their most controversially priced boxed set of recent months - Witch Elves. Yes, £35 is a high price for 10 plastic models - no argument there. But the kit itself is really, really nice.

Comparable in terms of pricing kit from PP, one of GW's main competitors? Erm....10 models, but only 4 sculpts. Also in plastic, but £40.

From a purely collector point of view - I know which I think is the better kit, and offers better value.

Only advantage PP's kit (Kossite Woodsman (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/privateer-press/warmachine/kossite-woodsmen/prod_31555.html)) has is that the box is a self contained unit. Witch Elves, not so much.

But, pound for pound, the Witch Elves are objectively a more accomplished kit.

[Eldar_Atog]

More general thoughts on prices and that.

For me, GW offer the best value kits in terms of the actual 'niceness' of the models.

Consider the sculpt and kit quality of their most controversially priced boxed set of recent months - Witch Elves. Yes, £35 is a high price for 10 plastic models - no argument there. But the kit itself is really, really nice.

Comparable in terms of pricing kit from PP, one of GW's main competitors? Erm....10 models, but only 4 sculpts. Also in plastic, but £40.

From a purely collector point of view - I know which I think is the better kit, and offers better value.

Only advantage PP's kit (Kossite Woodsman (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/privateer-press/warmachine/kossite-woodsmen/prod_31555.html)) has is that the box is a self contained unit. Witch Elves, not so much.

But, pound for pound, the Witch Elves are objectively a more accomplished kit.

It's a little different for us in the states. Comparing them on company sites, the witch elves are $60 vs woodsman at $55. When I went to amazon, the difference was more stark. The witch elves were $55 while the woodsman were $27. I'm not sure if they always have that much of a deep discount on Amazon though.

I can't argue about the model quality. GW almost always has a nicer variety of sculpts. One thing you leave out though is that the Woodsman come with a card that details their rules. This makes the purchase of a army book an optional purchase.

[daboarder]

More general thoughts on prices and that.

For me, GW offer the best value kits in terms of the actual 'niceness' of the models.

Consider the sculpt and kit quality of their most controversially priced boxed set of recent months - Witch Elves. Yes, £35 is a high price for 10 plastic models - no argument there. But the kit itself is really, really nice.

Comparable in terms of pricing kit from PP, one of GW's main competitors? Erm....10 models, but only 4 sculpts. Also in plastic, but £40.

From a purely collector point of view - I know which I think is the better kit, and offers better value.

Only advantage PP's kit (Kossite Woodsman (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/privateer-press/warmachine/kossite-woodsmen/prod_31555.html)) has is that the box is a self contained unit. Witch Elves, not so much.

But, pound for pound, the Witch Elves are objectively a more accomplished kit.

So these are "opinions" on the look of the model, personally I dont think the Witch elves are that great a kit, they are not posable in a pratical sense and the look is a bit meh

[Psychosplodge]

Unless GW has changed up their internal workings (which I doubt) they should have 1-2 years of product already developed and ready to go, so I don't really think they make knee jerk reactions either. They've never came across as an agile company. :)

And I also agree that these are very interesting times. Who knows, something awesome may come out of the other side of the turbulence.

The last time I spoke to heavy metal team member that used to work at a GW I frequented, they said they were painting 12 months ahead of releases, but wouldn't comment beyond that.

[Charon]

Engagement wise, given it's a physical product, their shops do far more than their competitors. Yes, PP and FFG sponsor tournaments, but they themselves don't contribute much in terms of showing me how to be a hobbyist.

Because they dont need to. Internet was "invented".
I don't need PP to show me how to paint, glue, magnetize or pin. There are hundreds of thousands of people on the internet with step by step guides. No need to make it one more.
Same with GW paint videos. Its nicely done but its not needed. I just need to go to Youtube and find one video that fits my style/experience level. No problem at all. So why spend money on redundancy?

There are only a few things I actually need PP/GW/... for:

If there is a rule unclear/badly written I want to get an answer how it is intended.
If there are glaring issues (Invisibility for example) in peoples games I appreciate an answer if they intend to change/fix this.

So in short: COMMUNICATION

[Mr Mystery]

So these are "opinions" on the look of the model, personally I dont think the Witch elves are that great a kit, they are not posable in a pratical sense and the look is a bit meh

Still nicer looking models than the Kossite Woodsmen, who are terribly dynamic as sculpts go - and the lack of variety in a plastic box is pretty surprising.


If there is a rule unclear/badly written I want to get an answer how it is intended.
If there are glaring issues (Invisibility for example) in peoples games I appreciate an answer if they intend to change/fix this.

Have you tried writing to them or emailing them?

[Charon]

Still nicer looking models than the Kossite Woodsmen, who are terribly dynamic as sculpts go - and the lack of variety in a plastic box is pretty surprising.



Have you tried writing to them or emailing them?

Sure.
At times our whole gaming group did. Was great fun when whe had our printed out e-mails with 3 different answers to the same question.
E-mails are not answered by ANYBODY even close to the design team. They are answered by the same guys who take your orders.
You get about the same educated answers if you go to a McDonalds drive in and ask the person behind the counter how this is to be interpreted. Same effect. Just wild guessing.
There is a reason why people don't consider texts from mail order "official".
The only "official" documents we have are Errata and FAQ. And we can clearly see how well this "communication" works.

[Mr Mystery]

You not liking the answer and not being given an answer, two very different things.

Do you have much of a problem elsewhere in life with unreasonable expectations?

Oh, and the people that answer the emails are close to the Design Studio. Right along the corridor as it happens.

[Charon]

You not liking the answer and not being given an answer, two very different things.

No reliable answer is in fact no answer. Thats not an issue "of liking".
Im perfectly fine with answers ruling against my interpretation. I'm not fine with 3 different answers that are 3 different interpretations. Just like the Rules section of this board for example.
Pick one you personally like and argue it out during the game. Not helpful at all.


Do you have much of a problem elsewhere in life with unreasonable expectations?


Sometimes when customers suggest that we should be able to set up multiple systems and our software in under an hour or fix issues in 2 minutes on the phone or my favorite doing it during official hours without disrupting their work.
Don't really see the context as I would not rate a consistent answer "unreasonable".



Oh, and the people that answer the emails are close to the Design Studio. Right along the corridor as it happens.

So, they could.. you know... just ask for an official and consistent answer istead of taking wild guesses`Shockingly unreasonable...

[40kGamer]

The last time I spoke to heavy metal team member that used to work at a GW I frequented, they said they were painting 12 months ahead of releases, but wouldn't comment beyond that.

I've always thought it was a by product of working with creative people. There is a direct correlation between one's level of artistic creativity and their inability to keep a schedule. Since Companies need to hit schedules to make customers happy the only safe thing to do is work well into the future so they know things are ready to go. I'm sure there are other reasons but given my experience with the truly creative this explanation always struck my fancy. :p

[40kGamer]

Have you tried writing to them or emailing them?

Me and the gang I regularly go to events with have tried this. Since the death of the roolsboyz we have never gotten an answer nor has anything been addressed through FAQs... so either there are not enough people to make it an FAQ or they just don't give a rats furry *** about answering rules queries anymore.

[Erik Setzer]

To be fair (and honest), Games Workshop pushed the idea of larger battles repeatedly. In 40K, they even made super-heavy vehicles part of the core game.

40K might be playable at smaller levels, but Warhammer starts breaking down bad. I've seen some 500 point lists for both with people trying them out (albeit with a few restrictions), and while the 40K armies mostly looked like functional armies, the WFB armies were pretty lacking. There's no rules for dropping the minimum unit size (and they removed unit maximums to encourage larger units, but that's a different point), so you end up with some armies having trouble fielding even a couple of minimum size units and a character... and you're supposed to have three units anyway. But even 40K can suffer at small point levels in some situations. For giggles, I made a 500 point list with a Knight detachment (one Knight, who was the Warlord, and thus boosted) and a Legion of the Damned detachment (one squad of five LotD). There's not a lot you can squeeze into 500 points to deal with a Knight, much less Marines walking around with bolters that ignore cover and have a 3+ inv. save. It's totally legal, battle-forged, all that.

But I saw something even more telling on Saturday... With the escalation league starting at the local GW store, there were still hardly any (if any) matches for it on the day, despite plenty of people being at the store. People wanted to play at least 1500 with 40K and at least 2000 with WFB. Because that's what they're used to and what the games are geared toward and what GW pushes. Even if you give people a reason to play smaller games, that behavior is so engrained that they won't do it.

So first, they have to find some more enticing reasons to play small games, and would have to push people playing that kind of game (which goes against their current philosophy of "sell more stuff and bigger stuff!" i.e. the new Stormfiends that can't be used in 1K or lower games). Then do something to ease the cost of jumping in, with starter boxes that have a discount, rather than expecting people to play minimum $135 for a rulebook and codex/army book before they even get started collecting models. That entry cost is why I complain about the price of the books. Rules are the entry point to the games. If you price the rules too high, it makes it less likely people will even buy into the game, especially if they see hundreds of dollars ahead of that in cost. (Oh, plus templates and all that goodness. We'll assume people have dice and a tape measure.)

Other prices, I'll just say again that some of them are fine and some need to be dropped to make more sense in GW's own system.

[Path Walker]

Its an expensive hobby, all games have a similar entry point, the starter for 40K is the Dark Vengeance set, which is very reasonably priced, more than competitive with any other starter set in the hobby, cheaper than almost all of them and with a full rule book unlike some (Infinity doesn't have the full N3 rule book, required a seperate £50 purchase, not yet available for free like the previous one). The Starter box has all the rules, the templates and dice and a ton of really great models. For £65, its a really great deal.

Lets stop this nonsense about small games not scaling and people not playing them, its simply untrue. Every box you buy can make a legal unit for the game, it might not be ideal for the competitive players, but for GWs core market, its enough, small games, 500 - 1000 work great in both systems, yes there are ways to break them, but there are ways to break the game at any point value, so saying 1000 points is broken is daft. Kill Team can be broken by taking 55 grots, doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of playing the game.

If for a second, you could try and think like normal human beings, who cared more about having fun with their friends than beating someone at a game, you'd realise where you were going wrong with this game and why you can't get it through your skulls that this is a hobby about collecting miniatures at its very core, the miniatures have always come first, there is no way you can try and pretend this isn't the case, GW has always been about making models, the models game first and the game systems followed, deal with it.

Complaining about army deals without discounts? You mean the ones that every single new army to be released in the last year has had? Those? They don't exist?

Hell, the Dark Angel and Crimson Slaughter ones come with all the rules you need to play them! You buy Dark vengence and one of the add on boxes and you don't need the codex.

[Lexington]

Ah sorry. To be clear I am focussing on the need to change to engage with 'the community' more thus getting free hugs and extra dinero out of people. They simply don't find it necessary or they would.
That's...true? I mean, obviously, but it's pretty tautological. GW thinks certain things are good for business, and some are bad and, theoretically, make their decisions based on those ideas (within certain constraints). I think the last three half-year reports have shown that how they think is not particularly concordant with the business reality they face.


I don't think the lessening cash flow, is lessening nor has lessened, sufficiently for those at the top to consider that their assessment of what customers want, is so badly wrong. How can this be your conclusion when you produce 2000 of an item and it flies off the shelf in 24 hours? The conclusion most external observers would draw is that they know exactly what customers want.
Dunno about this. I think GW's internal decision-making processes are questionable at best, but I doubt they're broken enough to overlook the aggregate results of their entire business over an extended financial period because of the success of one limited product. ;)


(Infinity doesn't have the full N3 rule book, required a seperate £50 purchase, not yet available for free like the previous one).
:confused:

The N3 rulebook has been available (http://www.infinitythegame.com/archive.php) for free online for damn near a month now - a good couple of weeks before the core book was available in stores.

[40kGamer]

As far as entry level goes... if someone new isn't willing to commit $1000 USD to a hobby project then I steer them away from GW. It is an expensive hobby and it is possible (and easy) to drop real $ with any company. However, GW requires a little more financial commitment then most simply because you play at such a large scale... atm you just can't go into their universe half cocked and make it work.

[Path Walker]

That's...true? I mean, obviously, but it's pretty tautological. GW thinks certain things are good for business, and some are bad and, theoretically, make their decisions based on those ideas (within certain constraints). I think the last three half-year reports have shown that how they think is not particularly concordant with the business reality they face.


Dunno about this. I think GW's internal decision-making processes are questionable at best, but I doubt they're broken enough to overlook the aggregate results of their entire business over an extended financial period because of the success of one limited product. ;)


:confused:

The N3 rulebook has been available (http://www.infinitythegame.com/archive.php) for free online for damn near a month now - a good couple of weeks before the core book was available in stores.

Sorry, last time I went on the sight, all i could find was the same "quick start guide"

[Caitsidhe]

If for a second, you could try and think like normal human beings, who cared more about having fun with their friends than beating someone at a game, you'd realise where you were going wrong with this game and why you can't get it through your skulls that this is a hobby about collecting miniatures at its very core, the miniatures have always come first, there is no way you can try and pretend this isn't the case, GW has always been about making models, the models game first and the game systems followed, deal with it.

Always priceless. :D It will be interesting to see how big the hobby is if Games Workshop continues in your mindset... or at least how big Games Workshop's piece of the pie will remain. By the way... you are WRONG... you don't even know the history of Games Workshop. Let me cue you in on something, their name is GAMES Workshop for a reason. The models didn't come first.

[Erik Setzer]

Hmm. I'll try to respond to some of "Path Walker's" points, but every new post feels more and more like a troll, especially the inability to have a conversation without spazzing out and getting insulting. (Key point, PW: "Actual human beings" don't react like that just because they can't people to agree with them 100% that EVERYTHING IS AWESOME AND PERFECT AND NOTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE.)

Also, PW, you might want to fact-check before you keep insulting others. It hurts your arguments.

Now, then.

Dark Vengeance is not the kind of "starter set" that I think these games need. That method has worked fine for a while because there weren't as many options. But it's limited to just two armies, and I can't find many people who want to play them. The one thing it has going for it is that, as the local manager uses as a nice selling point, you can use it pretty much as a full standalone game if you don't get into the whole hobby. Okay, key point. So maybe it has its place. But this is what I'm thinking (in case you missed it): Figure out a "starter army" for each core army, bundle it up, print small rulebooks, add in the rules for the units in the kit, and package those with a discount. Not a huge one, and it might have to vary based on the army. Something like the battle force/battalion boxes, but throw in a character or two, plus the other stuff. Sure, someone will still need templates (and would if they got Stormclaw or Deathstorm), but they otherwise have everything else they need: A core army of their choice, rules to play with those models, and the rulebook for the game. Then they move on to buying a full army book, and expanding their force. With the plastic kits and especially plastic characters, this is a very workable idea, and the aforementioned dual-army boxes prove it is. Basically, I'm just taking the concept of those boxes and splitting it up into single-army boxes. Are you such a troll that you'd claim that's a bad idea and wouldn't help get people into the hobby? And even better, it gets people already in the hobby to try out other armies, which could lead to them picking up another army.

Since you don't know me, I guess you feel it's fine to be a jackass and accuse me of just wanting to win all the time and not just have fun. I invite you to come to Jacksonville and ask everyone who plays against me if that's true. Now, you won't do that, because the blow to your ego for being so totally wrong would be worse for you than whatever the air fare is. But you would get a response from all of them that I'm all about having fun. I'll throw together silly lists that don't have much of a chance just because they're hilarious. I freaking play Orks, for Gork's sake. I put High Elves aside because I felt they encouraged too much cheesiness. I've railed on a player for running not only a Nurgle-heavy army to get the over-the-top benefit of the Mark of Nurgle, but actually having the gall to include a War Shrine with the Mark of Tzeentch to get a better save for it, all while claiming he cares about the fluff, which clearly wouldn't support a Tzeentch shrine buffing Nurgle units. Heck, in my personal armies, I won't mix Tzeentch and Nurgle or Slaanesh and Khorne, even if it drops my selection choices, because the fluff is important to me. I've apologized to people (who didn't think it was necessary) for tabling them. I am anything but a "WAAC" player, and most of the people I play with aren't. But yet you feel the right to insult multiple people rather than admit a point.

The games are not made for smaller levels. The balance breaks down, and in WFB, you have to break the rules to make it work. (Not hyperbole. The manager had to come up with edits to the game's army selection rules for a 500-point event we did once.) GW wanted to sell more models, so they pushed rules sets that work for that.

They could easily change things around to support smaller games. Kill Team isn't bad for 40K, it needs a bit of tweaking, but you have to go find a separate download online and pay for it to have those rules, because they stripped the Kill Team and Combat Patrol rules from the rulebook (even though it costs more). See? They make you pay more and have to use an electronic device (which a lot of gamers still don't have) to have the Kill Team rules, even, because they wanted to encourage larger games. WFB's old Skirmish and Warbands rules are nowhere to be found. They could simply throw modified (for newer editions) versions of those rules sets into the core rulebooks, and now people have ways to play smaller games. And their very existence shows that claims that the core rules are just fine with no modification are wrong, and even GW's admitted that in the past.

Oh, but wait, I see the problem... I'm using logic, and I'm also not saying Games Workshop is infallible and perfect in every way.

[Erik Setzer]

you can't get it through your skulls that this is a hobby about collecting miniatures at its very core, the miniatures have always come first, there is no way you can try and pretend this isn't the case, GW has always been about making models, the models game first and the game systems followed, deal with it.

Hey chum, newsflash for you: You're wrong, and I can prove it. In Games Workshop's own words!

From just 2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070420140142/http://investor.games-workshop.com/about/default.htm

"Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful tabletop fantasy and futuristic battle-games company in the world."

"At the heart of the Hobby are the millions of gamers aged 12 upwards, who spend many of their waking hours collecting, creating, painting and building up the armies which they will go on to command on a carefully prepared table top battlefield."

And in their explanation of "The Hobby" this is what they said:

"Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."

So, as you can see, not that long ago, Games Workshop themselves were telling investors - not the gamers, but people wanting to invest in the company - that they were a game company. They said their model was to recruit more GAMERS, using the GAMES as a way to get people into the hobby.

All through the website is mention of games. They knew back then that there would be no hobby without the games. The models wouldn't sell without them, the universes that they sell novels and stuff for wouldn't exist.

What a shock that as they try to get away from the games as the key part of the hobby, they're also doing less sales. Oh, wait, you have an excuse for that, too, though how "UK retail sales weren't great" translates to "worldwide sales were down everywhere" is, well, rather confusing to those of us who don't have the logic of a troll.


Heck, even the new model admits to how important the games are (having to use archive.org because even though GW's main site isn't blocked, their Investor site is here):

https://web.archive.org/web/20131208154830/http://investor.games-workshop.com/our-business-model/

"The games are a key part of both our Hobby and our business model. Our games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a club, a school), not with a screen. They are truly social and build a real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business sense. The more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to buy. This in turn allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all."

Why, gosh, that's EXACTLY what I keep saying! You want the GAMES to be good because the games are what make people want to buy more miniatures.

Wait, what's this? In 2013 they even said...

https://web.archive.org/web/20131020055851/http://investor.games-workshop.com/our-history/

"Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful tabletop fantasy wargames company in the world. Our major brands are Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. In addition, we hold a licence for The Lord of the Rings tabletop battle game. At the heart of the Hobby are the millions of gamers, who spend their time collecting, creating, painting and building up the armies which they go on to command on a carefully prepared tabletop battlefield."

So yeah, even today, they admit that the games push the sales, that the hobbyists are gamers, and that the games are vitally important, and they are a GAMES COMPANY. In their own words!

So maybe you should shut your troll mouth until you know the slightest bloody thing about the very company you seem to want to vehemently defend so much.

[Caitsidhe]

@Erik: Ah man... you hit him too soon. The fun is to let him totally make a fool of himself... then you lower the fact hammer. :D I keep it vague till he cries "No its not!" Pathfinder's antics are best when you let him really simmer in his Pathfinderness.... coax him out of his Troll hole with commonsense so he goes full Pathfinder... and then the facts.

[Erik Setzer]

I don't have the patience for trolling games. Especially not when someone is insulting not only me, but the many fine people I game with.