GW EOY 2014 Investor Statements

[Charon]

I don't know... I feel facts are wasted on him and Mystery anyways. You can link, you can quote and they just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and go: LALALALALALALALA
And when they go to sleep they reset and it starts all over again... just put them on ignore... more reasonable than trying to fight their ignorance.

[Eldar_Atog]

I would say just mark him as ignore and move on. He's admitted to just wanting to wind ppl up...



And mostly I'm here to laugh at whatever is making people cry.

Life is too short to let a troll ruin your day.

Charon:
As for Mystery.. I've never felt like he is a troll. He is very consistent in his opinions and never seems to instigate nasty behavior. I don't agree with all his opinions but it's rare that I agree with someone on every point.

[Erik Setzer]

I disagree with MM on some things, but have never seen the amount of outright abuse leveled by "Path Walker" in pretty much every topic he posts to. PW is the only one I'd classify as a troll.

Found the Ignore feature. It's sad to add someone to it, but sometimes you have to do do that.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't have the patience for trolling games. Especially not when someone is insulting not only me, but the many fine people I game with.

I suppose not, but you should realize that like most of his ilk, Pathfinder is immune to anger, indignation, logic, and mostly to facts too. :D Unable to form normal neural pathways and thus arguments, he thinks he has accomplished something when he gets a rise out of people. He is like the three year old that doesn't care if he gets attention for doing bad things or good things, just as long as it is attention. What he doesn't abide well is mockery and having his nose rubbed in it. That is why he always goes silent for a bit after stepping in one of his own more pungent droppings. He doesn't like being laughed at. :D

- - - Updated - - -


I don't know... I feel facts are wasted on him and Mystery anyways. You can link, you can quote and they just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and go: LALALALALALALALA
And when they go to sleep they reset and it starts all over again... just put them on ignore... more reasonable than trying to fight their ignorance.

In fairness to Mr. Mystery, he is a gentleman. He and I rarely agree on much, but he does conduct himself in a manner that civilized people recognize. I agree that he is something of a fanboy, but that isn't a crime nor even a negative. Most of us were fanboys at one point or another. He just has more tenacity than the rest of us. At most you could call him the "good cop" to Pathfinder's "bad cop" in the equation because the both are vaguely in the same corner. Beyond that, they are worlds apart. For one thing, Mr. Mystery will concede a point now and then and even admit when he is wrong. That alone garners my respect.

[Charon]

I don't know. If he is proven wrong on arguments and starts to contradict himself he loses his civilized facade pretty quickly and gets quite toxic.
Just have to go back a few pages...

[Caitsidhe]

I don't know. If he is proven wrong on arguments and starts to contradict himself he loses his civilized facade pretty quickly and gets quite toxic.
Just have to go back a few pages...

Well it is all in context. He can get heated, sure. But even heated, he remains within the boundaries. As a person who has probably gotten a lot of his heat over time, I can't say I've ever felt he was a bad egg. Sadly, the internet has moved the goalpost of just what I consider over the line and toxic these days.

[Lexington]

Guys, let's...not, with the "troll, troll, troll" thing? Yes, Pathfinder's abrasive, but he did just apologize for getting something genuinely wrong, and he's at least putting some effort in towards an argument.

Anyway, let's examine this:


[T]his is a hobby about collecting miniatures at its very core, the miniatures have always come first, there is no way you can try and pretend this isn't the case, GW has always been about making models, the models game first and the game systems followed, deal with it.
All right, so, I agree with this in what might be the loosest possible sense. Miniatures are the more important part of GW's business. I don't just mean that they make up the lion's share of GW's sales (which they do, obviously), but that they're the driving force of GW's business model, and that's how it should be. It's the area of their greatest competence. Like they say, they do the best minis in the business, and the miniatures (along with the strong IP, even if they often seem intent on running it into the damned ground) are the reason GW's the undisputed king of the industry. Without the minis, there wouldn't be a Games Workshop.

Similarly, my brain is, rather inarguably, where "I" am within my body. It defines me, for better or worse. It makes all the parts go, contains my whole personality and thought processes, etc. Compared to, say, the heart - which can be replaced, augmented, or otherwise kicked into working order - it's absolutely the gold standard in irreplaceable, identity-forming human meat.

If my heart goes, I'm still probably going to die.

Same with rules and GW. Are minis more important than rules for the survival of Games Workshop? Absolutely. GW could even, in theory, survive without a rules set to go along with their miniatures, but it's not a survival I think they want to deal with. The majority of players aren't going to keep with GW if the rules go away, because the rules create the community. It's what makes GW a social hobby and gets people into stores. They still make a fine product without their rules sets, but without the rules, it's a product with a much narrower customer base - one that can't support GW as it stands, financially.

This is one of the issues that I think GW's made a big error on over the past few years. They mistook the more important part of their business as the only worthwhile part of their business, and let a less important but still essentially component of their business rot. Note that I say this as someone who has mostly loved their rules/business direction over the last few years - allies, bigger games, mini-Codexes like the Inquisition and LotD, etc. - but it's hard to pretend that it hasn't made a big mess for people who are more rules-focused than I am. Those people aren't an insignificant portion of GW's customer base, and they're increasingly abandoning GW for competitors who better serve their interests. I think there's a way to reconcile these two approaches, but it'd take an investment in solid rules development as a business focus that's, sadly, not going to be undertaken by GW as they currently stand. A few more bad financial reports, however, may change that.

[Erik Setzer]

Guys, let's...not, with the "troll, troll, troll" thing? Yes, Pathfinder's abrasive, but he did just apologize for getting something genuinely wrong, and he's at least putting some effort in towards an argument.

It's a series of posts with him, and this one lost my respect completely in insulting the intelligence of people and making crass assumptions about how they play the game.

And I doubt he'll accept he was wrong, even though I showed him that in Games Workshop's own words, he's wrong. They call themselves a games company, they say the games help drive people into the hobby, and the more games people play and the more enjoyable the game, the more figures they sell.

So, while miniatures do make up the bulk of their profit, the games drive the sales of the miniatures, not the other way around. And they admit this in their investor report. Right there, they say the same key thing that I've been saying: A good game makes for better sales.

To claim that they aren't about games is just stupid. GW knows they are, they know their history was in making games, they know the games are what led and still lead people to buy the miniatures, they say these things in their investor website to the people wanting to put money into the company. So to be insulted for saying what GW themselves say is rather disappointing, to say the least.

[Eldar_Atog]

I kinda agree that we need to move on..

So when does the investor report get released?

[Mr Mystery]

I don't know... I feel facts are wasted on him and Mystery anyways. You can link, you can quote and they just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and go: LALALALALALALALA
And when they go to sleep they reset and it starts all over again... just put them on ignore... more reasonable than trying to fight their ignorance.

Troll? No.

Occasional bunghole? Fair cop.

[40kGamer]

Troll? No.

Occasional bunghole? Fair cop.

Soooo, this may be you? :p

http://spc.fotolog.com/photo/60/6/111/beavis_cornholio/1200934828_f.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

I have no bunghole.

My people. They have been without TP.

No man, should be without TP.

I CLAIM THIS THREAD FOR MY BUNGHOLE!

[40kGamer]

The Official report is just a little while off, might as well kick back and chill. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMmX9G8JP38

[Mr Mystery]

Time to jump back on track. Beavis is back in his box. For now.

Anyways - the great issue with Warhammer, is that at small points it's simply not as much fun.

Yes, you still have the cut and thrust of combat, and even at small points Magic can knock a whole in your enemies line. But, the smaller the scale, the less impressive the victory.

What do I mean? Well, one of the greatest strengths of Warhammer is that a single charge can always turn the tide of the battle. Even when you're completely thumping your opponent, you have to watch your flanks. Never mind that a flank charge gets a bonus to combat res, and stops your opponent counting his ranks, it also prevents such things as Parry Saves, and Fighting in Ranks. So if the unit is only say, 5 deep, you're only going to have 5 people hitting back. As a long time Ogre play, flippin' 'eck, that 'urts! Take the wrong risk at the wrong time, and you can find your otherwise orderly battle line rolled up.

At smaller points, once you get the upperhand it's near impossible to lose it, simply because removing a single enemy unit from the field generally spells doom for your opponent. The army resilience doesn't really kick in until those larger points - and because of that, many units lose their appeal.

Now, in terms of the drop in sales - it's not going to take much to recover that ground, if they can produce a rules set which is compelling, and cheaper to get started in, especially if much of the force is transferrable to how we currently know Warhammer.

40k itself seems to remain in rude health, and the rumours in particular point to long wanted stuff finally starting to see the light of day.

Warhammer has lagged behind. Which is a shame, because certainly to my mind it's a far more enjoyable game. Can't speak for anyone else like, but this post is just an opinion piece.

So as I said earlier, if GW can offer a compelling Warhammer game experience for £150 or less, without the need, but with the option of playing larger scale games, they'll pretty much be onto a winner.

Right now, GW aren't doing all that badly, because many gamers are happy to spend £300, £400 or upwards on the force of their dreams. Downside is that it's come at the cost of those happier paying £100 or £150 for a force. Rumours suggest the latter is about to be catered for - and I don't see any reason why GW would suddenly decide me spending the megabucks I'm already happy to hand over should stop.


As an aside - I'd be interested to hear your spending habits on hobby stuff in general. I've referred to a small scale not necessarily meaning small spend, and how GW would be unlikely to want to restrict that.

Example for me? X-Wing. Kicked off in June last year. So far, I have the starter set, two TIE Fighters, two Interceptors, Imperial Aces, two TIE Phantoms, two TIE Defenders, two TIE Bombers, one TIE Advanced, one X-Wing, two A-Wings, one B-Wing, Rebel Aces, one HWK-290, two Y-Wings, two Z-95's, two E-Wings, one YT-2400, one CR-90 (got a bargain on that one off Amazon!) and one Decimator.

Going on my typcial price of £10 per small ship, that's easily £350 worth of stuff - and I loves it! That the game isn't really designed for big old games (300+, without Epic ships) hasn't stopped me going bananas. Indeed, this month I'll be picking up Slave-1, Falcon and Shuttle Tyderium, with the Rebel Transport the month after. But, for the time being it's feeling like I've hit my limit for Rebels and Imperials. Near on two of everything is about as much I need to give good access to the cards I want.

If there's a practical way to field more, well I'll be buying more.

[Denzark]

their name is GAMES Workshop for a reason.

Yes - because they started off producing wooden board games. Nothing to do with wargames.

When they got into miniatures 4 years after inception, they were producing them to be used in any rule set - at this time they did not have any of their own rules, everything was produced under license.

Yes, they were producing miniatures for 4 years before WFB 1st Ed came out.

So the name Games Workshop is entirely a misnomer in this case, and this is one reason why 3 shop fronts in the UK changed their name to 'Warhammer' on a trial basis.

If the company changes its entire name to Warhammer the argument would actually hold more water than it does now - but just saying 'they are called GW rules must be a priority' isn't actually the case.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes - because they started off producing wooden board games. Nothing to do with wargames.

The wooden board games thing correct, the other part is not. They were dealing with all sorts of games and tactical war games including Chainmail were part of it. They almost got into bed with Gygax but thought better of it. Let's just say I've been around a few years. They were producing all sorts of games and they helped Citadel get their start, to produce models for use with their games.


When they got into miniatures 4 years after inception, they were producing them to be used in any rule set - at this time they did not have any of their own rules, everything was produced under license.

Yes and no. They were producing small games but largely they were manufacturing other people's games to make bank. Citadel whom they were in bed with and much later would consume entirely, was not them. They were a GAME company both before the models and well after the models started being produced.


Yes, they were producing miniatures for 4 years before WFB 1st Ed came out. So the name Games Workshop is entirely a misnomer in this case, and this is one reason why 3 shop fronts in the UK changed their name to 'Warhammer' on a trial basis.

It isn't a misnomer no matter how much they would like to claim so now, largely under the misguided leadership of a Board that seems intent upon cooking the goose that laid the golden egg. As I, and many others have commented upon, it is their lack of energy into the game side of the equation that is costing them players, longevity, and a great deal of community spirit. The further they move from the game, or the worse the quality gets in said game, the worse their predicament will become. This is because those models, however nice, have no value outside the game.


If the company changes its entire name to Warhammer the argument would actually hold more water than it does now - but just saying 'they are called GW rules must be a priority' isn't actually the case.

The argument doesn't hold any water now, as another poster demonstrated by posting things directly from the Games Workshop prospective and publications.

[Mr Mystery]

Privateer Press are neither Piratical nor particularly printy or winemakey?

Name predates all else with GW.

[Denzark]

From the investor relations website, accessed today:

How it all began

Games Workshop was founded more than 30 years ago by three game fanatics who began selling handmade, classic wooden games from their homes in London. They went on to develop a chain of general games shops. In 1981 Games Workshop helped to found Citadel Miniatures Limited, a manufacturer of metal miniatures based at Newark-on-Trent, in Nottinghamshire. A few years later the company moved closer to Nottingham and began to develop and expand, producing wargame systems under the Games Workshop name.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/our-history/

In the interim period they were producing mostly other peoples games under license. Some of the older games - battle cars etc - were completely irrelevant to citadel miniatures as they were all card stock.

I make the point because one of the many complaints surrounding the ruleset and how it should be tighter seems to be 'FU GW your name even says what it should do on the tin so make your rules betterer'.

I am saying the name represents a choice made when the initial main effort of the company was producing stuff like chess and ludo. The fact they branched out was what got the main investor at the start, John Peake, to leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peake_(game_designer)

[Wolfshade]

Friendly reminder to keep it civil. :)

[40kGamer]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/57804604.jpg

[Charon]

I would also argue that the Game itself and the Black Library drive sales a lot. Without a Game or without the Background books there is no reason to stick to sci-fi minis that are not any merchandise.
Kromlech for example does beautiful Ork minis. They do not produce a game. In a world where no wargames exist, Kromlech could not exist as the niche of people buying small minis just for display is even smaller than the wargaming niche.
I also think that rules drive sales A LOT. I would not be surprised if Serpents and Knights are in high demand while Raptors are sitting on the shelves.

[Eldar_Atog]

Why do we continue to focus on the model vs game company thing? It's business speak and has no real meaning. It should carry about as much weight as the word of a politician.

[Denzark]

Because some people point to the fact that the company name means the company should automatically be required to do better at the game side, ie rules.

Whilst I sympathise with the latter point the former does not make it so.

[daboarder]

Because some people point to the fact that the company name means the company should automatically be required to do better at the game side, ie rules.

Whilst I sympathise with the latter point the former does not make it so.

the self identification as "game designers" however sorta does.

[40kGamer]

Why do we continue to focus on the model vs game company thing? It's business speak and has no real meaning. It should carry about as much weight as the word of a politician.

It may be business speak but business speak has a way of permeating the corporate culture. So them thinking of themselves as a model company means they don't put a lot of effort into the rules. It's really a chicken/egg debate as to whether the game drives the model sales or model sales drive the game. A lot, if not most of us old timers got into the game first and followed it to the models so we find models driving the game a dubious claim at best. Although Tamiya obviously works as a model only company, I'm just not sure how that 'style' fits GW.

[Caitsidhe]

How about equal energy into both? :D After all, they are charging for those rules as if they are the second coming. I mean seriously, if they aren't a game company and the rules are just thrown in there for us to have something to do with all these models, why not just give them to us for free with a download? :D How's that taste? Given that they have produced more books of than models of late, and the selling point of those books of regurgitated pictures is really just 2-3 pages of additional RULES, I think there might be some substance to this game theory after all. :D

[Erik Setzer]

Kromlech for example does beautiful Ork minis. They do not produce a game. In a world where no wargames exist, Kromlech could not exist as the niche of people buying small minis just for display is even smaller than the wargaming niche.

To be honest... Kromlech exists to fill an artistic niche with GW's Ork race, particularly. I love their style and would love to run a lot of their stuff as a Blood Axes army, but by that point, too much of my army wouldn't be GW models, so I couldn't play in a GW store. Kromlech's Ork range exists because of 40K. Heck, their bitz are designed specifically to be attached to 40K Orks.

On a side note, Kromlech also showed how you can make models and parts for use in 40K and keep GW's legal eagles off of you.

- - - Updated - - -


Because some people point to the fact that the company name means the company should automatically be required to do better at the game side, ie rules.

Whilst I sympathise with the latter point the former does not make it so.

Well, their own investor site mentions the fact that better games lead to better sales of miniatures. So even GW recognizes the need to be better at the game side. It's nice that they'll admit, to their investors at least, that the games drive the miniatures, people don't actually buy the games to have something to do with figures they bought in a vacuum.

[Mr Mystery]

There's games out there with good rules, which aren't fun to play, so there's a lot more to a game being good than the rulebook, particularly when it comes to semi-collectible affairs like Wargames. You can have the tightest rules set possible, but if your models are bloody awful, you're not going to sell as much.

The models remain one of the things that really puts me off Warmahordes. I really don't like Steampunk, and the Hordes models are pretty meh in my book. I can appreciate the rules set though - but it's just not enough to engage me in the game.

[Caitsidhe]

Well... the report is out. Not that any of us were surprised, but their sales are down significantly. I won't go into taking the report apart section by section yet, but I will comment on this little gem:

"For this reason, the principal risks and uncertainties for the balance of the year lie in the ability of the sales channel managers to deliver sales growth and for the product and supply chain to maintain gross margin."

This is code for us blaming it all on the middle managers. Their loss of sales has NOTHING to do with the product according to them. The weight is entirely on those managers (whom they later say they are having a hard time finding and training properly) to deal with. :D

[Mr Mystery]

There's a thread about that below.

And I wouldn't call a 1.7% drop in constant currency terms significant by any stretch of the imagination.

[Caitsidhe]

There's a thread about that below.

And I wouldn't call a 1.7% drop in constant currency terms significant by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm still doing the math. Let's just say I don't trust their spin on that. :D However, a drop of nearly 2% after massive cutbacks, layoffs, and introducing a major new product line is very telling in and of itself. What it says is that End Times is an utter flop if it can't even hold sales steady or generate the slightest bump.

[Mr Mystery]

1.7% drop in takings - not profit. Profit cut is higher naturally, because that's the way it works.

As for End Times? Clearly not a flop. Stuff flies off the shelves, and I'm yet to hear anything except positive reactions to it (well, barring some controversial character deaths).

As for their 'spin' - come on dude - you know that PLCs here in the UK have their books independently verified. It's a legal requirement. Please drop the utterly unsubstantiated 'they didn't do as badly as some claimed, so they must be lying' shtick......in the words of the (sadly not literally) immortal Graham Chapman....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4085/5208221237_2a84cba911.jpg

[Eldar_Atog]

The models remain one of the things that really puts me off Warmahordes. I really don't like Steampunk, and the Hordes models are pretty meh in my book. I can appreciate the rules set though - but it's just not enough to engage me in the game.

That is a matter of taste. I'm rather fond of the pirate cryx myself. I freely admit that GW's models are a step above Privateer... but Privateer has a rule set that is more fun to me.

That's my conondrum. I enjoy painting my 40K stuff and showing it off but fielding the army can be frustrating. My cryx are more fun to play but they are frustrating to assemble/paint.

[Mr Mystery]

That is a matter of taste. I'm rather fond of the pirate cryx myself. I freely admit that GW's models are a step above Privateer... but Privateer has a rule set that is more fun to me.

That's my conondrum. I enjoy painting my 40K stuff and showing it off but fielding the army can be frustrating. My cryx are more fun to play but they are frustrating to assemble/paint.

Funds allowing, I think any gamer would happily play multiple games.

I'm in a fortunate position in terms of hobby funds. With no significant other or dependents, once all my bills are paid in the month, I can wazz my money up the wall as I wish.

But for most, I guess it's a toss up over what you enjoy the most. For some, it's the game. For me, it's building the kits (I find it relaxing) others painting, others still various mixes of the different hobby elements.