Spore Mines move 7"-12" something new to discuss

[HsojVvad]

Ok, was on Dakka Dakka and this came up. I guess I need to read the rules better. No where in the Tyranid codex does it say the Living Bomb Rule replaces the Spore Mines normal movement. I didn't believe this at first, but going by RAW, Spore Mines mvoe before any Tyranid unit, just like as they are deployed first before anyone else when the game starts.

So going by the Living Bomb rule: before the Tyranid Movement Phase each Spore Mine moves D6" scatter, and then it moves the normal 6" what ever the player chooses.

We can't go by RAI since so much has changed in the codex. If we go by RAI, then Lictors and Carnifex should act indepenantly and not be in broods. We don't know what has changed for Spore Mines either, and since it's a fast attack unit, it would make sence that it can almost move 12" like other FA units.

The Spore Mine is a pretty expensive unit for an S, T, I, and Ld on just One. It's over half the cost of a SM but can really do diddly squat compared to a SM.

So this would make the Spore Mine a better use unit now. Unless GW Erratas this, Not FAT it but Errata it then it should be played this way.

So far nobody has proven this statement wrong with page numbers in the BRB or Tyrand codex. Again, RAI don't count because we don't know what Robbin Cruddance intentions are. As alot of people said, if you go by RAI, then Lictors shouldn't have to hold each others hands or tails when working together.

So what do you guys think? Something else to discuss or debate about. :D

[Absolutionis]

Curiously, even the previous 4thEd codex was worded as to not explicitly disallowing normal 6" movement.

[Mike X]

Eh, I'd allow an additional 6" of movement after the scatter roll.

[Sir Biscuit]

This depends ENTIRELY on how you interpretate "moves" in the following sentence:

"At the beginning of the Tyranid movement phase, each spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by rolling the scatter dice [...]."

I think it's a bit silly to assume that the movement from the "living bomb" rule still allows the unit to move. While it's not explicitly stated, it's generally assumed that a unit can only take one move action per turn!

Also, an RAI interpretation should be included in this argument. And who the hell claims that it's RAI that carnifex's and lictor's aren't in broods? That makes no sense to me, there's no basis for it at all. The codex changing has no effect on RAI interpretation. Unfortunately, in this case, there isn't a clear one, but that doesn't mean that it's always invalid.

[Drew da Destroya]

There's no RAI basis for Lictors or Carnifexes being used independently. It's very obvious from the way the entries are written that both units were intended to be used in a squad (for those of you playing at home, that's both RAW and RAI). That's using faulty logic to support your own weak argument.

There's no rule in the rulebook allowing a unit to move twice in the movement phase. Find me a page number in the BRB that says a unit can move twice in the movement phase, and I'll graciously allow it. For the record, I'm all for spore mines charging in the assault phase.

[HsojVvad]

There's no rule in the rulebook allowing a unit to move twice in the movement phase. Find me a page number in the BRB that says a unit can move twice in the movement phase, and I'll graciously allow it. For the record, I'm all for spore mines charging in the assault phase.

Page 76, Scout moves. To me when i read the rule about scout rules, a model is clearly moving twice in a movement phase.

Scout is a special rule that changes rules to the movement phase.

Living Bomb rule is a special rule that changes rules to the movement phase. Untill it's Errated, since there is nothing in the Tyranid codex that says the Special Bomb rule replaces the Spore Mines normal movement rules, it should be played like this.

The scout adds to the models movent. As is written now the Living Bomb rule does the same thing.

Yes I know what is intended, but so much really has changed in the Tyranid codex from 4th to 5th edtion, we really can't say what is RAI anymore. You can say well everyone thinks it should replace it, but then again lots of peoople think Lictors and Carnifex should be deployed together as is.

[Ferro]

That's a bad example Hsoj. Scout moves happen pre-game, not in the movement phase at all.
Spore mines are Fast Attack, but being FA doesn't grant a 12" movement.
I don't read that it's allowing a double move at all. The drifting is the move.
I do think it's interesting that when your movement phase begins, the mines must drift first. I think this is intended to help prevent the mines from drifting into another friendly unit (and being removed) that you had just moved in the same phase.

[Nabterayl]

You know, it might be useful to observe the following quotes from the rulebook:


Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry.

Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase.

Bikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.

Compare with:


At the beginning of the tyranid Movement phase, each spore mine moves D6" in a direction determined by rolling the scatter dice.

None of these actually say they replace the normal infantry move.

[lobster-overlord]

Not to add fuel to the fire, as I am not a Tyranid player, I don't have the book to answer this myself, but then can't you RUN the Spore Mines if they are infantry as well, adding to their distance moved during shooting, allowing them an even greater distance moved.

John M>

[Nabterayl]

I think it's pretty much agreed that you can run spore mines, and agreed but to a lesser extent that spore mines can assault.

Given the way GW writes the movement rules for bikes and jump infantry, though, I'm inclined to say that they do not get a normal infantry move. True, nothing says that they don't get a normal infantry move in addition to their special I-have-an-explicit-rule-for-this move, but the same is true of bikes and jump infantry.

[Drew da Destroya]

Like Ferro said, Scout moves are pre-game, and thus not part of the "Movement Phase". It's still a faulty argument. While Jump Infantry and Bikes modify their movement distances, neither of them gets to move twice. Either that, or I'm going to start moving my Nob Bikers 18" (12 bike movement and 6" infantry movement), firing, and charging.

I hadn't actually thought about running spore mines, honestly, but yeah, RAW would support that.

[Sam]

Not to add fuel to the fire, as I am not a Tyranid player, I don't have the book to answer this myself, but then can't you RUN the Spore Mines if they are infantry as well, adding to their distance moved during shooting, allowing them an even greater distance moved.

John M>


I think it's pretty much agreed that you can run spore mines, and agreed but to a lesser extent that spore mines can assault.

Given the way GW writes the movement rules for bikes and jump infantry, though, I'm inclined to say that they do not get a normal infantry move. True, nothing says that they don't get a normal infantry move in addition to their special I-have-an-explicit-rule-for-this move, but the same is true of bikes and jump infantry.

Page 48 of Codex: Tyranids: "Spore Mines are not subject to Instinctive Behavior, never go to ground (voluntarily or otherwise), run or fall back."

So no, it is not established that Spore Mines can run, it is explicitly stated that they cannot.

[Nabterayl]

Page 48 of Codex: Tyranids: "Spore Mines are not subject to Instinctive Behavior, never go to ground (voluntarily or otherwise), run or fall back."

So no, it is not established that Spore Mines can run, it is explicitly stated that they cannot.
Whoops, missed that. Thanks for the correction!

[Drew da Destroya]

Well done, Sam! I totally missed that.

[HsojVvad]

Well isn't it said minis can't move in your opponents turn? Then how come a special rule, The Lash of Submission can make my units move on his turn? Because it's a special rule. The Living Bomb rule is a special rule as well.

Bikes don't get an addtional movement, because the BRB says all units fallow the same rules as Infantry, but for bikes and Jump Infantry, it says they can move up to 12" therefore they can't move more than 12" unless they have other special rules, like turbo boost. :p

The Living Bomb rule has no such distiction like this. So either the Spore Mine gets to move 7"-12" or it just moves 6" where ever the player chooses because it's an infantry unit, and infantry units move 6".

[Nabterayl]

I don't know if I find that persuasive. Your logic is that because bikes say they move "up to" 12", they can't move more than that, even if there's a rule that arguably says that they can move up to 18" (because bikes follow the same rules as infantry except as noted, and nothing in the rule actually takes away their infantry move).

But then you'd say that even though infantry says it moves "up to" 6", spore mines can move more than that because there's a rule that arguably says they can, because nothing in the rule actually takes away their infantry move?

[lobster-overlord]

Thanks Sam for pointing that out about the run rule.

[HsojVvad]

Oh I can't remember if I stated that I don't believe this is the way the rule works. I am with you guys, but I am in one of the moods to play the devils advocate and just love pointing out how sloppy GW rules are.

I am here for a friendly debate and no ill hearted feelings.

But even though I would never play the rules like this, I think it's might be fun to try it out in a game for turds and giggles. Then again, you just never know, maybe this is the new way things are suppose to be. So much has changed, why do lots of people have a hard time even thinking this might be the new actual way of doing things.

[Drew da Destroya]

Fair enough, I apologize if I came off sounding like a jerk. I just don't really see how this rule could stand up to actual analysis.

Honestly, it would really have to explicitly spell it out in the Spore mine's rules that it gets the random movement in addition to its normal movement for me to accept the idea as anything beyond intentional misreading of the rules.

[Absolutionis]

RAI has no basis here.

You can argue that Spore Mines are mindless bubbles of explodeyness that cannot move 6" in the movement phase.
You can argue that Spore Mines are living and thus the Hive Mind can guide them in the direction desired. This even happens if you roll a "hit" to scatter.

I really wonder why nobody noticed this in the previous codex as well.

[Nabterayl]

I just noticed this on page 11:


Sometimes, a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6" or be forced to move in a certain way (directly towards the closest enemy, for example). Such situations are discussed later.

This strongly suggests to me that random and/or compulsory movement (Living Bomb is both) replaces the usual move - instead of the usual 6".

[sebi81]

I think that`s the point. The mine moves. But like units that failed their morale check it can´t move as ist wants to. In my opinion the wording and the sense of the rule is clear. It moves D6 inches in a random direction. Having done this, it has moved and can`t move again in the same movement phase.
And who said you can´t use RAI because many things in the codex are changed and you don´t know what the author intendet? Using RAI means if the wording is not clear, you think about what was intendet by the rule. Why is the rule there, which meaning that is covered by the wording does fit the sense of the rule best. and even if you think the wording is not clear here, because it doesn´t explicitly say, that the random move replaces the normal movement, the sense of the rule is, that the mine don´t move like any other infantery, it such floats over the battelfield.

[HsojVvad]

I just noticed this on page 11:


Sometimes, a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6" or be forced to move in a certain way (directly towards the closest enemy, for example). Such situations are discussed later.

This strongly suggests to me that random and/or compulsory movement (Living Bomb is both) replaces the usual move - instead of the usual 6".

We are making assumtions here. As you said, it strongly suggests, but that is assumptions. Now there was a rule, I forget, but almost 90% of the people assumed this was the way the rule worked because of previous edtions, but in 5th the rule dosn't work that way anymore. I wish I remeber what this rule was, it was a shocker for almost everyone because they all played it wrong. So we should not be assuming anything. This could be the intent or not. This is my point of the thread., we have to assume, when the rules should have been more clearly written.


I think that`s the point. The mine moves. But like units that failed their morale check it can´t move as ist wants to. In my opinion the wording and the sense of the rule is clear. It moves D6 inches in a random direction. Having done this, it has moved and can`t move again in the same movement phase.
And who said you can´t use RAI because many things in the codex are changed and you don´t know what the author intendet? Using RAI means if the wording is not clear, you think about what was intendet by the rule. Why is the rule there, which meaning that is covered by the wording does fit the sense of the rule best. and even if you think the wording is not clear here, because it doesn´t explicitly say, that the random move replaces the normal movement, the sense of the rule is, that the mine don´t move like any other infantery, it such floats over the battelfield.

As someone said, here or in another theread, I can't remember, that unless a rule says you can /B] do it, you can't do it. I know the rules don't say I move D6" and then move 6" as a regular infantry move. But the Living Bomb rule [B]dosn't say the D6" replaces normal movement rules.

Again we shouldn't be assuming anything.

It's like people assuming the Hive Tyrant is an Independant Character just because he joins a brood of Tyrand Guards. He isn't an IC. If he was, then he could leave the HT and join any other brood if he choose to. Imagine a HT joining a brood of 30 gaunts. But we are not debating about HT is an IC or not.

Also people assume Spore Mines can't assault. Why can't they assault? Please show me where they can't assault? Just because it was like that in 4th edtion? Well again I say Lictors and Carnifex acted alone in 4th edtion and now that has changed in 5th edtion as well.

But you see what I mean by assuming. Dosn't mean it's correct or not.

[Drew da Destroya]

As someone said, here or in another theread, I can't remember, that unless a rule says you can /B] do it, you can't do it. I know the rules don't say I move D6" and then move 6" as a regular infantry move. But the Living Bomb rule [B]dosn't say the D6" replaces normal movement rules.

Your point here invalidates the argument. Unless the special rule says you can do something, you can't. The Living Bomb rule doesn't say that you can move twice in the movement phase, so you can't.

And if the true point of the whole argument is that GW's rules-writing is unclear at best, well, we've all known that since the 80's!

[sebi81]

I´m not assuming. For me it´s clearly stated, that spore mines MOVE d6 inches in a random direction. That´s their move. It isn´t necessary that the word "replace" is used or that the rules say they can´t additionally move like infantry. The way spore mines are moving is ruled as an exception to the usual rules for movement. If an additional move was intendet it had to be ruled explicitly.
To say they can move twice is only an assumption...
But I agree that spore mines can assault. their moving is overruled, but not their assault move. And assaulting isn´t explicitly forbidden, other than running etc.

[Jwolf]

Spore Mines move according to the Living Bomb rules. That's their move.

Now let's move on. ;)

[AbusePuppy]

The Spore Mine's movement is a compulsory move; it dictates how far and in which direction the unit is forced to move. It is similar to Rage or other compulsory moves in that it doesn't replace your normal move, it tells you how you must use your normal movement.

I fall in with the camp that says Spore Mines are allowed to assault, though. They are not explicitly denied the ability to do so and they have rules that prevent them from landing within 6" of an enemy model. It seems like a reasonable intuition from these facts that they are allowed to follow the fluff and seek out nearby enemies (i.e. assault and instantly die).

[HsojVvad]

Spore Mines move according to the Living Bomb rules. That's their move.

Now let's move on. ;)

What shall we move on to? :)

[Jwolf]

How about your topic on Spore Mines and Assault?