Why I think 7th is the worst yet; and what it forgot (a negative view of 7th ed 40k)

[World Of Pain]

First of all - I have been, I am and I will be a huge fan of the WH40K. I love and enjoy all the aspects of this hobby, including playing the game by the rules and I have done so since the 1st edition (yeah, Im that old!).

When I write from this topic I do give a lot of credit to the history of the WH40K rules and there actualy is the biggest problem of the 7th edition. Most of the (I would still say that at least 98%) rules go back to the older editions so the 7th edition really can´t take too much credit out of them. I do give them nice A+ from changing rules like challenge and psychic phase to much different direction and making them (in most of the case) much better and enjoyable.

Problem is NOT in the things they did better but in all those things they decided to leave out from the rules and in some of the rules that they clearly have not test played at all or enough to immediately understand that they are just simply bad, bad, bad. We all know these rules. Here are some of them: 1) LEVELS. What kind of terrain did they use during the test play of this edition? 2) BUILDINGS. Why do I want to go in to the building when in most of the time Im more safe in ruins? 3) TEMPLATE WEAPONS Really? Have you ever tried to use these weapons by RAW? If not please place a unit of anything on a table, then place a model with flamer 1" away from the enemy and try using your weapon by following rules as written. Tell me how you did.

And this list goes on and on... we all know this. So why is this happening? 7th edition came out really fast after the 6th and it had all the necessery data and test play to fix all these problems but instead they decided not to do it. Sure, they added missions and fancy card game that needs so much house rules and modifications to make it work that its nothing like the missions they wrote on the BRB. I had played only 2-3 of the maelstrom missions when I allready noted that it was just a fancy add on to sell some card decks to us and really did not add anything good to this game without us fixing it a lot.

Money is not a problem for me. I have enough of it to have a hobby like WH40K. Spending my money on bad product is a problem for me. I can buy a really nice car if I want to but still I will be disapointed and mad if it does not fufill my expectations for the money I put into it. 7th editon is not fuffilling those expectations. I just updated my Grey Knight army rules. I had to buy Codex Grey Knights, Codex Inquisition and Assassins suplement to get 95% of the same rules and units as I allready had in my old GK codex. This update was 133% more expensive that my old Grey Knight codex. I didn´t get any new units, I lost many of my converted models that I had build with tons of working hours. I got a feeling that they sold me "my old car with new paint" and made me spend lot of money to get it.

Codex BA is coming out soon. I think that first time in my long history of WH40 I will not buy it. I will just keep on playing with my old BA codex (I have over 10,000 point army of them) and by doing so put out a word that GW really need to put more effort to their product in the future. Hope that my fellow gamers in my club support me in this crusade and if I can make one player to join it with this message then I feel like it was worth it.

[Charistoph]

Biggest mistake they made, aside from the level rules (that I'll include the template weapons on), is how the Shooting Phase was changed.

Each weapon name is fired and resolved separately. However, when you get situations where multiple targets may be had (Power of the Machine Spirit, Super-Heavies) or the firing of one weapon affects another (Ordnance, I'm looking at you), nothing was put in to recognize or take advantage of it.

Too much gosh-darn copying-and-pasting without proper editorial review is the biggest problem with 7th. As much as people complain about super-heavies and Unbound (those can be addressed on a per-person basis), this is the real problem. As much got cleared up from 6th, even more was messed up by the changes they made.

[Eldar_Atog]

7th is not my favorite edition but I can't say it's the worst I've played. I started playing in 3rd and I think of it as the worst edition. The codices and armies just had so very little flavor to them. The rules were adequate but you had to pick up the 2nd edition book if you wanted to understand the motivations of the army.

[40kGamer]

7th is not my favorite edition but I can't say it's the worst I've played. I started playing in 3rd and I think of it as the worst edition. The codices and armies just had so very little flavor to them. The rules were adequate but you had to pick up the 2nd edition book if you wanted to understand the motivations of the army.

I started with 1st,2nd then left during 3rd, skipped 4th and returned with 5th-7th. I'm also planning to step out with 8th unless it's a huge improvement over 7th. The rules have somehow manged to become over complicated and bland at the same time.

[DarkLink]

It's a marked improvement on 6th. It still has plenty of balance issues, and the editing is par for the course for GW.

[GrauGeist]

I started in 2nd, and really played a lot of 3E / 4E.

I hate the fiddliness of 6E / 7E - it slows the game down so much, in such unrealistic (implausible) ways. I have not bought any of the 7E stuff, and probably won't.

If 8E brings things back to how nicely streamlined 3E and 4E were, I'd be on board with that.

[World Of Pain]

It's a marked improvement on 6th. It still has plenty of balance issues, and the editing is par for the course for GW.

Balance issues are hard to argue in WH40K so I don´t want to go there too much. My opinion is that rules in 7th are written poorly, most of the possibilties to improve the game from the 6th edition´s lessons learned were wasted and it´s rules have not seen enough (if any at all) test play to even notice simple problems that appear when you play your first game with it. Writers also removed few aspects and sections of the rules that are now causing much debate and confusion during games - more than I have ever encountered during my years of playing. It should not be like that. 7th edition had the best set up to really notice most of the problems in rules and in game play and fix them - it did not. That is why I call this topic.

I do admit that 3rd edition was lacking fluff stuff but still it had good solid rule writing. And we must not compare the complexity or "realism" aspects of these editions because WH40K - like all games - has envolved during many years. It would be like saying that "Final Fantasy 3 had really simple rules compared to FF 7" - yeah sure, but at that time it was a really nice game and most of the stuff in the new one is just things build up from the prequels.

[GrauGeist]

I do admit that 3rd edition was lacking fluff stuff but still it had good solid rule writing.

Exactly. 3rd was very playable, because it was deliberately designed toward simpler, smoother play. If 8E turned back the clock on rules complexity but kept the artwork, fluff and production values, that would be close to perfection. Simple rules and stats that everyone could keep track of, with all of the background information that immerses the player in the game world, and a clear understanding of exactly which little items are truly characterful and emblematic of a particular army or faction.

[Arkhan Land]

I think 3e was a little too streamlined. 1st/2nd was overly complex, and i think 3rd was a much much less nuanced reaction to that, i think 5th/6th/7th have slowly been turning up the complexity people will tolerate in this game but that were reaching the tipping point

[Eldar_Atog]

I do admit that 3rd edition was lacking fluff stuff but still it had good solid rule writing..

Yeah, I'm not knocking the rule writing for 3rd. It's the lack of flavor that always bothered me about 3rd. Being more of a fluff player, that was very hard to deal with.

[daboarder]

to be fair, 3.5 onward (so the second round of books) had HEAPS of flavour. In fact I'd say 3.5-early 4th codexes were the best GW has written.

[John Bower]

And this list goes on and on... we all know this. So why is this happening? 7th edition came out really fast after the 6th and it had all the necessery data and test play to fix all these problems but instead they decided not to do it. Sure, they added missions and fancy card game that needs so much house rules and modifications to make it work that its nothing like the missions they wrote on the BRB. I had played only 2-3 of the maelstrom missions when I allready noted that it was just a fancy add on to sell some card decks to us and really did not add anything good to this game without us fixing it a lot.



Got to say first off you don't need the cards; the objectives are in the book which yes I grant you is a bit of a pain to keep track of. But what house rules do you need to make it work? I've played a lot of MoW and 1 CoD mission since the Leviathan books dropped. And honestly love that. Yes I know 7th has it's issues; I certainly don't like what they did with buildings (Glances should not have any effect at least), and ruins were a mish mash that they didn't give us half the rules for.


But I still don't see the issue with Maelstrom; what needs house ruling? If you mean what do you do with a card you can't get; well that's just common sense surely? You dump it; no house rule and unless an opponent is a complete F***tard he's not going to argue the toss. In fact I'm pretty sure it's in the BRB somewhere what to do in that situation though could be wrong.

[Blood Shadow]

Personally I like 7th Ed, I think the rules are ok enough, as long as you don't try too hard to break them.

I've also been in the game a long time, I think the story (thanks to BL) has developed in depth and colour fantastically since 4th Ed. Yes we have ongoing balance issues but it's clear that they're trying to sort these out with vanilla codexes and limited rule books... Yes there's an amount of profit drive in what they do, but I support them in that they make cool models and rules, it's still my favourite SciFi universe and game.

If you don't want to pay, then fine... Buy a PS4

[Mike X]

My gripes with 7th edition:

-Hull points.
-Challenges.
-Invulnerable saves against D-weapons.
-Rending occurs on a to-wound of 6 (instead of to-hit).
-Unbound armies aren't disadvantaged enough.
-Psychic phase (I still don't understand it).

[World Of Pain]

Try this: First set up your average terrain, objectives and deploy your armies with your friend who has about the same skill level to play this game as you do. Then deal about average number of MoW cards that you estimate you would draw during 6 game turns (lets keep that in average too). I´ll bet that 3/4 times you can tell who is going to win this game from looking those cards. Here is the problem - card game is random thing that has way too little variables to make MoW games balanced. Dice does this too - I know - but you throw hundreds and hundreds of rolls during a single game so makeing 20 bad rolls has not so much impact on the game. Dice god is tricky but fair. So if you agree with me then you notice that about 75% of the games are allready lost or won because of the cards and not so much of your tactics and gameplay. We have some GREAT house rules to actually make this work. I can have my friend "Lost Vyper" to post more about them or you can go to check his YouTube chanel to see them your self. Here are some of them:

1: Drop that d3 rule to just 2.
2: MoW points from the objectives are counted at the end of the opponents turn. This makes it impossible to just "fly and grap" objectives. You actually have to hold them for a turn to get points.
3: MoW points are only PRIMARY or SECONDARY in games. So if you win MoW score you get fixed amount of victory points in the end. If you win or lose it 20 - 1 its still only 3 or 2 points in the end. There are allways other objectives too - like the Relic, Kill Points, Main Objectives and so on.
4: Use fixed card deck that you both agree.
5: And keep those other victory points in the game too: First Blood, Slay the War Lord, Line Breaker and add that Last Laugh (its really fun and balances that First Blood nicely!)

With these house rules you actually balance MoW games really well.

[daboarder]

even when balanced the game is still a glorified "chase the shiny"

I like using maelstrom to generate random hidden secondary missions (as opposed to first blood, warlord and linebreaker) but its a terrible primary game

[Denzark]

Have you ever spent about an hour setting up an ork army in Rogue Trader (note: not 'Rouge Trader'). Then 30 minutes in your first turn rolling on the madboyz tables for a mood? Then in marine turn 1 losing 75% of your army to a virus missile?

And 7th is the worst edition?

[daboarder]

Have you ever spent about an hour setting up an ork army in Rogue Trader (note: not 'Rouge Trader'). Then 30 minutes in your first turn rolling on the madboyz tables for a mood? Then in marine turn 1 losing 75% of your army to a virus missile?

And 7th is the worst edition?

To be fair when most people are comparing editions they accept that RT and 2nd are very different beasts to 3,4,5,6,7

[Charon]

I dont think that 7th is the worst, but it has glaring issues resulting from copy&paste lazyness.

[World Of Pain]

I dont think that 7th is the worst, but it has glaring issues resulting from copy&paste lazyness.

Remember my origina post here. On this I don´t want to give credit for this editon from all those things that were allready invented in the last ones. Reason why I call this one the worst is simply because it had the best resourse, material, test play, feed back and everything else that could and SHOULD have made it much, much better than it is right now. Also it was published much sooner from the last edition than other editions and we know that this was done to fix mistakes and problems that appeared in the 6th. For some reason they only fixed marginal amount of those problems and also because of their decison to leave many sections of the rules out they actually created more problems and confusion than they fixed. This has (in my opinion) never happened before in the last editions - at least not in this scale. This is why I call GW out and I want them really understand they need to TEST PLAY THEIR RULES before they publish them out.

We often talk within our club that how easy it should be for GW to set up a large scale test play weekends. People would be ready to do this for small gifts or even free to just be part of the next edition development. I know I would. And computer games are and have been doing this for a long time now.

[Lost Vyper]

Yep, World of Pain and i represent the Reseda Prime -FLGC and the last missions we have played, have been the best in months! As for the 7th edition, i personally like the Maelstrom, but as an Eldar player, i have a HUGE advantage...speed. I also like the Psychic phase better now, cos it´s not auto success --> creates more possibilities during the match. BUT, i concur, that the copy/paste + FORGETTING stuff is a huge disappointment in this edition...

So, back to the matches we have played.

PRIMARY : We have had objectives (3-5) who holds the most gets 3 VP
SECONDARY : Kill points, or fixed Maelstrom deck, ten cards 2VP for the winner
TERTIARY : First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Line Breaker, Last Laugh a point each

for the next match, i was thinking about KP´s as Primary and Maelstrom as Secondary...

[Reldane]

I must say I quite like having Maelstrom missions, it forces me to think in different ways to how I did and to think more about movement instead of playing a gunline. It also, in my opinion, encourages the players to look at objectives before turn 5 which I feel has always been a flaw with objectives.

I like the psychic phase; it toned down at least some of the over the top nature of 6th edd psychicness, even if it added some more problems I feel that on the whole it made the game more enjoyable. That being said I have played a lot of Warhammer Fantasy and the new psychic phase isn't dissimilar to the magic phase.

I think the current books are better balanced than I have seen in my 10 years playing, of course there are better armies, but there are certainly not many outright bad armies. In the end though it comes down to personal preference, my advice would be to find some friends who are like minded and play with them (with what ever house rules you feel will make things more enjoyable). If you are playing in a tournament then you need to accept whatever the rules are and move on; complaining in about competitive rules set (regardless of quality) merely comes across as whinging and making excuses. Doing so is no better than the actions of various sporting personalities who in post sports match interviews would blame referee for their loss.

[Wolfshade]

To be fair when most people are comparing editions they accept that RT and 2nd are very different beasts to 3,4,5,6,7

That's because 2nd with Dark Millenium was the bestest ever.

Virus Bomb, Chain Lightning + Ultimate Force ftw! (or ftepicloss)

[World Of Pain]

Reldane. You gave some nice personal opinion but I think you missed the point. You say to follow the rules in tournaments but I have allready pointed out that many of the rules don't work at all or are copletely missing from this edition. Also it takes a lot of time to come up all the missing rules with you oponents because now almost everyone has some different house rules to overcome problems caused by the missing rules in BRB.

[Reldane]

Reldane. You gave some nice personal opinion but I think you missed the point.

thank you and you are quite possibly correct, it was rather late when I was typing. I think my point with regards to tournaments is that by going you are accepting their rules, whatever they might be and your aim is to build and play as best as you can to those rules. complaining about those rules more oft than not comes across as moans and whines for example: I play [assault themed army] I hate 7th edd because shooting is so strong, how am I meant to get into combat. it may be true, but it sounds to other people like you are trying to make excuses and you want your army to be an auto win for you.

house rules needn't be complicated so long as they are made to not favour one army over another.

[confoo22]

The funny thing is that I kind of feel like World of Pain and Lost Vyper are pointing out part of what actually makes this edition good. They saw the Maelstrom mission wasn't working for them, made slight modifications but left the basic system intact, and are now enjoying the missions immensely by their own admission. 7th ed is all about giving you the tools, GW's suggested framework, and then letting you make the game what you want it to be. I understand that players want this stuff given to them in an official package so that they don't have to have a discussion concerning it, but honestly I find the creative process of tinkering with the rules and creating new missions to be part of the fun of the hobby. Of course, that's just my opinion.

I'm also unclear as to what exactly the gripe here is: Is 7th edition the worst yet, as the title suggests, or does it simply fail to live up to the OP's expectations? I get that the rules are not absolutely tight and that they tend to sprawl, but most of the complaints I'm seeing are opinion based. That's fine in and of itself, but if this is just another "Let's talk about the rules we all hate" thread then it's not really a "Why this edition is the worst" thread.

[Charistoph]

I'm also unclear as to what exactly the gripe here is: Is 7th edition the worst yet, as the title suggests, or does it simply fail to live up to the OP's expectations? I get that the rules are not absolutely tight and that they tend to sprawl, but most of the complaints I'm seeing are opinion based. That's fine in and of itself, but if this is just another "Let's talk about the rules we all hate" thread then it's not really a "Why this edition is the worst" thread.

It's true, many people are putting it that way.

My complaint was very simple and had nothing to do with specific rules (though I gave one as an example), but this edition is definitely the loosest group of rules so far. And not like the good "footloose" style, I'm talking about the loose that sends your sail off in to the sea when a mildly strong wind hits it.

A lot of the rules that were affected by some of the major changes seemed to have been completely ignored as to the consequences and their interactions with each other. Especially when some things could have been copied and pasted over with no difficulties, but they still choose not to do so (for example, the order for setting up a game).

However, in terms of over all completeness for flexibility, it is one of the best editions ever.

[40kGamer]

While I like the goal of not restricting players with a burdensome rules framework I have to agree that some of the actual rules interactions are terrible... and most are painfully obvious. It feels like GW has pulled funding from the rules design team to where this is the staff they can afford...

http://www.jessicabrody.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/monkey-typewriter.jpg

[World Of Pain]

confoo22 and 40KGamer; really nice points there (love that picture). But I don´t think that GW planed to release this edition so poorly written. They just didnt test play it enough or did so with wrong people. Our club allready has about two A4 pages full of house rules - just to fix those major problems that 7th edition causes. Its hard for me to understand how people who dont have the luxury of playing with the same people everytime can overcome these problems without spending first at least 30 minutes to house rule things.

Once again my three main points for this headline are:

1) 7th edition is missing way too many BASIC rules that players should not have to invent them self.
2) 7th edition has many rules that do not work at all if played as RAW and people should not have to fix these basic rules by them self.
3) 7th editon had the BEST resource and information to become a really good edition but it failed to do so and still was the most expensive one.

[silashand]

some of the actual rules interactions are terrible... and most are painfully obvious.

This. Stupid ideas like vehicles not being able to overwatch are also problems I have with the rules. While I get maybe battle cannons should not, the whole reason every nation that can puts machine guns on them (and has since the beginnings of armoured warfare) is to repel attackers. And that's only one example. It's stupidity like this that makes me believe the proverbial monkeys on typewriters is what GW provides us. Eventually they may produce Shakespeare, but until then it's just garbage.


even when balanced the game is still a glorified "chase the shiny"

I like using maelstrom to generate random hidden secondary missions (as opposed to first blood, warlord and linebreaker) but its a terrible primary game

Agree completely.

[confoo22]

Once again my three main points for this headline are:

1) 7th edition is missing way too many BASIC rules that players should not have to invent them self.
2) 7th edition has many rules that do not work at all if played as RAW and people should not have to fix these basic rules by them self.
3) 7th editon had the BEST resource and information to become a really good edition but it failed to do so and still was the most expensive one.

Right on man, there are definitely issues with the rule set. And though I personally draw enjoyment from mission writing and rules tweaking I can completely understand why people find that frustrating and 100% agree that you shouldn't HAVE to do so after spending so much for the rules. I don't think that that makes this the worst edition yet though.

I've been playing since the tail end of fourth and I never had a great grasp on 4th's rules, but of the three that I did play regularly I'd have to say that 5th was the one I liked the least, mainly because I found the rules of that edition to really encourage particular play styles across all the codexes (parking lots, anyone?) while the most recent one at least lets you play more to your particular style and, in a non competitive format, have a chance at a fun and challenging game (please note I did not say balanced). That's not to say that some of the current codexes don't encourage particular lists over other, but at least that's more exclusive to the codex instead of the edition as a whole.

[40kGamer]

But I don´t think that GW planed to release this edition so poorly written. They just didnt test play it enough or did so with wrong people.

So you're thinking this is the playtest department? :p

http://www.book530.com/paintingpic/080919a/monkeys-playing-a-board-game.jpg



Our club allready has about two A4 pages full of house rules - just to fix those major problems that 7th edition causes. Its hard for me to understand how people who dont have the luxury of playing with the same people everytime can overcome these problems without spending first at least 30 minutes to house rule things.

I've noted before that there is a lot more upfront time required to play a good game in 7th. Pick up games and event games have become nearly impossible to pull off without problems. And 7th has so many fiddly rules that may be cool in concept but they really bog down the game.

- - - Updated - - -


This. Stupid ideas like vehicles not being able to overwatch are also problems I have with the rules. While I get maybe battle cannons should not, the whole reason every nation that can puts machine guns on them (and has since the beginnings of armoured warfare) is to repel attackers. And that's only one example. It's stupidity like this that makes me believe the proverbial monkeys on typewriters is what GW provides us. Eventually they may produce Shakespeare, but until then it's just garbage.

The no overwatch for tanks is super silly. A reworking of the old defensive weapon rule would be most welcome.

[Gleipnir]

Increasingly the game feels like if you want to get the most out of it you either need to house rule minor details and go the narrative route or play it as a 3 player game with one player acting as the referee of sorts managing setup and objectives and random tables to move matches along faster.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

The no overwatch for tanks is super silly. A reworking of the old defensive weapon rule would be most welcome.
Overwatch itself is a really silly rule that needs to be sent back to the devs for a total overhaul. At the very least it should have to spend an edition sitting in the time out corner, thinking about what it did.

In order for me to come back to 7th, especially as a very bitter Tyranid player, I was going to have to accept that the game was never going to be fair. The best it could offer was its fluff, and the game let you play that fluff out. Basically I had to accept GW on their own terms. ...And they still suck. In fact, I think now I'm even more cynical and bitter against them because they fail so utterly at delivering a consistent narrative within the game. Instead, the actual gameplay is a bunch of stilted rules that work differently depending on what army you're using, rather than having all armies operate off a consistent, intuitive rules system, using special rules only when the basic rules cannot adequately represent what GW wants to convey. No wonder the games all take four hours. Nobody can keep track of all the rules.

1) Tau Stealth Suits, Tyranid Lictors, and benefactors of the Invisibilty psychic power are all capable of essentially being impossible to see. Yet they all work differently. Tau's gives them Stealth and Shrouded. Lictors give them precision Deep Strike and Stealth. Invisibility forces snap shots and making things super-hard to hit in melee, but confers neither Stealth nor Shrouded. Actually, speaking of Lictors, the Deathleaper forces snap shots and has Stealth, but like the Tau and the basic Lictor, it has no bonuses in melee...

2) And They Shall Know No Fear. In what should probably be the most blatant case of Exactly What It Says On The Tin in the entire rulebook, this rule ought to just be "ignore Fear". But no, instead it has this odd time-warping rally bonus that basically obfuscates whole game mechanics from applying to the Space Marines. It's not that it's overpowered (usually). It's just kinda' arbitrary. It's like they're Fearless... except not really. It's like they're so special that Fearless wasn't good enough for them.

3) Monstrous Creatures vs Walkers. Sometimes it's pretty simple enough to discern. Giant winged Baphomet-looking thing with a battle axe? Easy, Monstrous Creature. DING! Clunky trash can with pneumatic limbs? Well it's armored, so Walker. DING! Tau Riptide? Well, it's a big guy in a giant mecha... basically a fancy version of the Killa-Kan... I'm betting it's a walker- BZZZZZZZZT! Rats. Okay, Dreadknight. Well he's in a giant power lifter. Sentinels, Penitent Engines, and War Walkers all set the precedent that these kinds of things fall into the Walker category. Gonna' go with Walker here, too- BZZZZZZZZT! Oh come on! Okay, last round: Knight Titan. Oh no, not falling for that one again. Monstrous Creature- BZZZZZZZZZT!

Ooooooh, sorry but you didn't win the million dollars. Well, that's it for this week, folks. Tune in next week for another exciting episode of... WALKER... OR... MONSTROUS... CREATURE!

4) Psychic Powers, specifically for Tyranids. The current psychic / perils table are based off drawing power from the warp, as most psykers do. But Tyranids don't. They draw from the Hive Mind. They don't draw on the powers of Chaos at all, probably for this very reason. So their powers don't work like normal. (*rolls dice*) ...Huh. Funny, they seem to Perils just fine. Well, at least we block out the warp, making it harder for other armies to draw on the powers of Chaos when *they* cast... What do you mean we can't block them? ...How are their casters more likely to suffer daemonic retaliation with us standing around? What sense does *that* make? I thought the Perils of the Warp were supposed to represent the backlash of the raw warp. But I thought the Hive Mind was blotting out all that Chaos nonsense... ...Ow, I need an asprin. I think I just suffered a Perils of the Warp attack just trying to rationalize this...

5) Chaos Marines, specifically what happens to Marines when they turn traitor. I was just reading the fluff behind the Crimson Slaughter last weekend. Basically a bunch of Marines with presumably ample amounts of standardized technology razed a planet and were haunted by their deeds until they went crazy. And this was within a hundred years of the Black Crusade. So... in that time period, those recently-insanity-stricken marines went and threw out all their technology overnight (apparently piling all this tech into their drop pods and then firing them off into deep space...), started growing horns, mutated their Dreadnoughts into hideous fleshy thingies, managed to accumulate a ton of Cultists, and some even became Daemon Princes. Their praises to the Emperor aren't even cold on their lips yet. So in other words, not only are Chaos Marines all a bunch of technophobes (how the Iron Warriors live with themselves I'll never know...), but this recently-traitorous chapter basically replicated the corruption, daemonic pacts and warp mastery of the Black Legion, who have been at this rebellion for the past ten thousand years. Boy, I bet the ol' Luna Wolves feel like a bunch of idiots now. This succumbing-to-chaos-and-becoming-a-graver-threat-to-the-Imperium-than-all-the-xenos-combined thing is easier than I thought.

Suffice it to say, I could keep this up all day.

[Charistoph]

So you're thinking this is the playtest department? :p

http://www.book530.com/paintingpic/080919a/monkeys-playing-a-board-game.jpg

Too many monkeys, not enough dogs.



5) Chaos Marines, specifically what happens to Marines when they turn traitor. I was just reading the fluff behind the Crimson Slaughter last weekend. Basically a bunch of Marines with presumably ample amounts of standardized technology razed a planet and were haunted by their deeds until they went crazy. And this was within a hundred years of the Black Crusade. So... in that time period, those recently-insanity-stricken marines went and threw out all their technology overnight (apparently piling all this tech into their drop pods and then firing them off into deep space...), started growing horns, mutated their Dreadnoughts into hideous fleshy thingies, managed to accumulate a ton of Cultists, and some even became Daemon Princes. Their praises to the Emperor aren't even cold on their lips yet. So in other words, not only are Chaos Marines all a bunch of technophobes (how the Iron Warriors live with themselves I'll never know...), but this recently-traitorous chapter basically replicated the corruption, daemonic pacts and warp mastery of the Black Legion, who have been at this rebellion for the past ten thousand years. Boy, I bet the ol' Luna Wolves feel like a bunch of idiots now. This succumbing-to-chaos-and-becoming-a-graver-threat-to-the-Imperium-than-all-the-xenos-combined thing is easier than I thought.

And none of this is exactly 7th Edition's fault, and goes WAY back to 3rd Edition or earlier. I used to have the 2nd Ed Chaos book, but not the Space Marines book, but even then, there were a lot of these same differences.

Still, I would love to see Loyalist Marines divided in to Codex and Legionnaires, and Chaos Marines divided in to Devoted and Renegade, then let the supplements fall.

Codex Marines would bring the Angels in with the Ultras and Templars moved over to Legionnaires with the Space Wolves. Basically, if you're mostly codex-adherent, you're in the first. If you use the codex more for toilet paper and comic relief while still operating more or less how your Legion did in the Grand Crusade, welcome to the Legionnaires.

Devoted Marines are those who are deep in to the cults of Chaos, including Black Legion, Word Bearers, etc. The Renegades are either under the "Chaos is okay for some, but I'm not worshiping" or "The Imperium sucks, we're outta here" groups like the Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and possibly the Night Lords.

But that has nothing to do with 7th Edition itself.

[John Bower]

5) Chaos Marines, specifically what happens to Marines when they turn traitor. I was just reading the fluff behind the Crimson Slaughter last weekend. Basically a bunch of Marines with presumably ample amounts of standardized technology razed a planet and were haunted by their deeds until they went crazy. And this was within a hundred years of the Black Crusade. So... in that time period, those recently-insanity-stricken marines went and threw out all their technology overnight (apparently piling all this tech into their drop pods and then firing them off into deep space...), started growing horns, mutated their Dreadnoughts into hideous fleshy thingies, managed to accumulate a ton of Cultists, and some even became Daemon Princes. Their praises to the Emperor aren't even cold on their lips yet. So in other words, not only are Chaos Marines all a bunch of technophobes (how the Iron Warriors live with themselves I'll never know...), but this recently-traitorous chapter basically replicated the corruption, daemonic pacts and warp mastery of the Black Legion, who have been at this rebellion for the past ten thousand years. Boy, I bet the ol' Luna Wolves feel like a bunch of idiots now. This succumbing-to-chaos-and-becoming-a-graver-threat-to-the-Imperium-than-all-the-xenos-combined thing is easier than I thought.


Ah, but you're forgetting 'the Warp' and its very nature. to the Chaos Marines that were legiones Astartes it's not 10k years since the HH, it's like a few years to them, time in the Warp is a nonsense and totally meaningless. So you can spend what you think is a day in the warp and find the Imperium has moved on 10k years, or spend a hundred years in the warp and find the galaxy hasn't even really missed you.

And a big thanks to the mods btw for removing the nastiness that occurred between daboarder and I; it was uncalled for on both sides and I'd like to apologise for what I said.

[World Of Pain]

Thank you for everyone who commented, posted their opinion and read this "open letter" of mine. In only 4 days we have had over 8400 views of this topic so I truly hope in my heart that one of those people is working for the GW and maby - just maby - this gave him or her something to think about.

PLEASE! TEST PLAY YOUR RULES MORE BEFORE YOU PUBLISH THEM! FAQ AND CORRECT THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO FIX THOSE THINGS THAT YOU MISSED BEFORE PRINTING!

Love your stuff and work - so much that I wanted to write this to make things better.

[Andrew Thomas]

This. Stupid ideas like vehicles not being able to overwatch are also problems I have with the rules. While I get maybe battle cannons should not, the whole reason every nation that can puts machine guns on them (and has since the beginnings of armoured warfare) is to repel attackers. And that's only one example. It's stupidity like this that makes me believe the proverbial monkeys on typewriters is what GW provides us. Eventually they may produce Shakespeare, but until then it's just garbage.
I agree. That was my favorite doctrine in the WD Armoured Company list, back in 4th, the one that let you fire your sponsons at a charging foe. Luckily, the conversion I'm working on in the Blogs is going to fix that. (/shameless plug)
But yeah, the Maelstrom Objectives deck, especially in MM 6, is a clunky system, especially when the deck is still weighted heavily toward taking and holding positions.
And the Psychic Phase is far too swingy. Even if you optimize for a dominant Psychic Phase, you are still beholden to the dice, which is odd for an edition that seems hellbent on removing randomness from the rules set.

- - - Updated - - -



And none of this is exactly 7th Edition's fault, and goes WAY back to 3rd Edition or earlier. I used to have the 2nd Ed Chaos book, but not the Space Marines book, but even then, there were a lot of these same differences.

Still, I would love to see Loyalist Marines divided in to Codex and Legionnaires, and Chaos Marines divided in to Devoted and Renegade, then let the supplements fall.

Codex Marines would bring the Angels in with the Ultras and Templars moved over to Legionnaires with the Space Wolves. Basically, if you're mostly codex-adherent, you're in the first. If you use the codex more for toilet paper and comic relief while still operating more or less how your Legion did in the Grand Crusade, welcome to the Legionnaires.

Devoted Marines are those who are deep in to the cults of Chaos, including Black Legion, Word Bearers, etc. The Renegades are either under the "Chaos is okay for some, but I'm not worshiping" or "The Imperium sucks, we're outta here" groups like the Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and possibly the Night Lords.

But that has nothing to do with 7th Edition itself.

I would buy those Codices.

[Andrew Thomas]

My conversions are finished, and I think I've knocked most of the bugs out of the system. Comments and conversion requests welcome.

Battle Fleet Gothic-style 40k: Introduction (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8665-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Introduction)
Unit Types (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8675-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Unit-Types)
Armaments & Leadership (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8677-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Armaments-amp-Leadership)
Special Orders (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8679-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Special-Orders)
Turn Sequence (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8680-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Turn-Sequence)
The Movement Phase (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8681-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-The-Movement-Phase)
The Psychic Phase (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8682-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-The-Psychic-Phase)
The Shooting Phase (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8683-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-The-Shooting-Phase)
Damage (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8684-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Damage)
The End Phase (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8685-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-The-End-Phase)
Close Combat (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/entry.php?8686-Battle-Fleet-Gothic-style-40k-Close-Combat)

[asmodai66]

In 8th edition, its horrible to have no force org chart at all...