Blood Angles going the way of Black Templars

[Renegade]

It seems from the rumours that BA could just as easily be rolled into the core SM codex ala Black Templar.

Sanguinary Guard nothing really unique about them, they are an Hour Guard unit with a few rules.
Sanguinary Priests slight rules change as with BT Chaplins,
Baal Predatorsone unique unit avalible with Chapter trait just like Emperors Champion, ,
Death Company & Death Company Dreadnought unique with Chapter trait just as Crusader Squads and Sword Brethern are.
Furioso Dreadnoughts & Libarian-Dreadnoughts don't see any reason why these should not get the Land Raider Crusader treatment, the former is really just equipment really while the latter could be almost any Chapter.

[Cutter]

It seems from the rumours that BA could just as easily be rolled into the core SM codex ala Black Templar.

Sanguinary Guard nothing really unique about them, they are an Hour Guard unit with a few rules.
Sanguinary Priests slight rules change as with BT Chaplins,
Baal Predatorsone unique unit avalible with Chapter trait just like Emperors Champion, ,
Death Company & Death Company Dreadnought unique with Chapter trait just as Crusader Squads and Sword Brethern are.
Furioso Dreadnoughts & Libarian-Dreadnoughts don't see any reason why these should not get the Land Raider Crusader treatment, the former is really just equipment really while the latter could be almost any Chapter.

Except the B'angles are about to get a new Codex and a couple of kits, or were you referring to the forthcoming 8th Edition of 40k? *

* (due a fortnight after Codex Necrons drops)

[40kGamer]

They've really lowered the threshold of what constitutes a codex.

[Renegade]

Except the B'angles are about to get a new Codex and a couple of kits, or were you referring to the forthcoming 8th Edition of 40k? *

* (due a fortnight after Codex Necrons drops)

Shall we see what happens when SM 8ed drops? It should be a long way off, somewhere after CSM, CD and AM. There is Necrons and Eldar yet to drop, so this would put SM a good 5 codices in and ripe for rolling in BA.

[40kGamer]

Shall we see what happens when SM 8ed drops? It should be a long way off, somewhere after CSM, CD and AM. There is Necrons and Eldar yet to drop, so this would put SM a good 5 codices in and ripe for rolling in BA.

Never try to outguess GW or expect a pattern. There is very little method to their madness.

[David Crossley]

I strongly doubt that either of the Angels of Death codexes will be getting rolled into the Vanilla Marine dex any time soon. Black Templars will always have to contend with the fact that they're a second founding chapter and that their actual founding chapter never had it's own separate codex at all. Not to mention that their knightly aesthetic has since been poached by the Dark Angels.

[Charistoph]

I strongly doubt that either of the Angels of Death codexes will be getting rolled into the Vanilla Marine dex any time soon. Black Templars will always have to contend with the fact that they're a second founding chapter and that their actual founding chapter never had it's own separate codex at all. Not to mention that their knightly aesthetic has since been poached by the Dark Angels.

I didn't know knights wore dresses to battle.

[silashand]

They've really lowered the threshold of what constitutes a codex.

This about sums up almost all recent books IMO.

[ElectricPaladin]

This idea that Blood Angels have lost everything that makes them unique is vastly overstated. At this point, the Blood Angels still have...

• A unique HQ who grants an benefit that is almost unheard of in the entire game (go ahead and tell me how many models buff their squads' WS there are in this game... I'll wait...)
• Another unique HQ option
• A unique and envied weapons option for tactical squads.
• The ability to take as an Elite something everyone else can only take as an HQ.
• Two unique infantry units.
• A unique tank.
• Several tanks granted the Fast USR.
• Other tanks may have the option to buy the Fast USR as an inexpensive upgrade [NOTE: Less reliable rumor].
• Characterful takes on the concept of ironclad and venerable dreadnoughts.
• Several unique special characters
• A unique Detachment that gives another important and rarely seen benefit.

The idea that Blood Angels are "going the way of the Black Templars" is completely counterfactual. You can say you don't like these changes, or that something you personally enjoyed has been removed, but there is still plenty about this army that is unseen anywhere else in any Space Marine codex.

[40kGamer]

This idea that Blood Angels have lost everything that makes them unique is vastly overstated.

Pretty much like Space Wolves... They are still unique enough, but the newest codex takes away some of what made them truly special (stripping Assault marines out of troops is pretty insulting if you really think about it). But the current trend is to deflavor the main dex to add interest to the formations and supplements... which are sold separately of course. :p

[Cleon]

Sanguinary Guard nothing really unique about them, they are an Hour Guard unit with a few rules.

Err, what?

Name another Marine unit in the game with a 2+ save and a jump pack? Also all their other equipment is unique, Glaive Encarmine, Angelus Boltgun, Deathmask (even the Infernus pistol option is BA (and Sisters) only).

Other than that your complaint seems to be because the Black Templars had a couple of changes anything can be rolled in?

[David Crossley]

I didn't know knights wore dresses to battle.

http://blog.templarhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/3templars.jpg
Near enough as far as all the latest DA models are concerned.

[Gleipnir]

Forgot to mention they along with Space Wolves are the only Space Marine Chapters with access to Unique Psychic powers

[ElectricPaladin]

Forgot to mention they along with Space Wolves are the only Space Marine Chapters with access to Unique Psychic powers

You're right - I did!

[eviscerator]

This idea that Blood Angels have lost everything that makes them unique is vastly overstated. At this point, the Blood Angels still have...

• A unique HQ who grants an benefit that is almost unheard of in the entire game (go ahead and tell me how many models buff their squads' WS there are in this game... I'll wait...)

Ezekiel's Book of Salvation?
It gives +1WS to EVERY (DA) unit within 6" of him.

[ElectricPaladin]

Err... Ezekiel?

One other guy does that? Cool. Still pretty rare and nifty.

[GrauGeist]

It seems from the rumours that BA could just as easily be rolled into the core SM codex ala Black Templar.

That would only be a good thing. Space Marines are supposed to be largely monolithic, with minor differences that are largely invisible to outsiders. Sub-Codices are the correct approach.

[Cutter]

Shall we see what happens when SM 8ed drops? It should be a long way off, somewhere after CSM, CD and AM. There is Necrons and Eldar yet to drop, so this would put SM a good 5 codices in and ripe for rolling in BA.

I'd rather see what happens when SM 7ed drops.

[Wolfshade]

That would only be a good thing. Space Marines are supposed to be largely monolithic, with minor differences that are largely invisible to outsiders. Sub-Codices are the correct approach.

Depends how they deploy them. I have the 3rd ed codex and I would rather have a full codex than that again, or the WD supplements.

[Fenrisian1]

In response to everyone's beef with them losing assault marines as Troops, here's something to consider.

1) With the new detachment system, it really doesn't matter, ok so you pay the tax of an HQ and a few barebones scouts, and unlock all the additional slots you need for all the Assault infantry you want. If they follow the trend of SM and DA, scouts will be 60 ish for 5, and an HQ for 50-60pts. So for 360 points you have a few units that can give you all the benefits of having Assault marines as troops.

2) I'm sure that either in the core codex or Exterminatus, they will get a detachment that lets them take a truly ludicrous number of fast attack choices. Look at Orks, SW, and Dark Eldar. They all have gotten detachments that grant them slots they really need. (granted when the Orks get one where they can have an insane number of HQs, we might all be in trouble).

Onto the Death Company being elites. The pictures from Deathstorm clearly show that the Death Company and DC Dread are troop choices. So unless there's a huge discrepancy between the two, I am inclined to believe that is bogus.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-deathstorm-new-dataslates-minis.html

Look at the pics of the dataslates. DC are troops. And if you go by the rules there, DC now score and might not be restricted to one unit. So in essence, even if they are Elite, you can take 3 Elite choices of Jump infantry (DC figure to be about 25 ppm with jump packs so a huge points cut), and 3 of Fast Assault marines.

[William Clarke]

One other guy does that? Cool. Still pretty rare and nifty.

Think Tyranid Primes allow units they join to use his WS.

[Erik Setzer]

It seems from the rumours that BA could just as easily be rolled into the core SM codex ala Black Templar.

Sanguinary Guard nothing really unique about them, they are an Hour Guard unit with a few rules.
Sanguinary Priests slight rules change as with BT Chaplins,
Baal Predatorsone unique unit avalible with Chapter trait just like Emperors Champion, ,
Death Company & Death Company Dreadnought unique with Chapter trait just as Crusader Squads and Sword Brethern are.
Furioso Dreadnoughts & Libarian-Dreadnoughts don't see any reason why these should not get the Land Raider Crusader treatment, the former is really just equipment really while the latter could be almost any Chapter.

You just listed multiple unique units, and to excuse it further, you're suggesting the BAs lose some unique units so there's fewer and it fits your narrative better. I imagine you also think Dark Angels should just be put into Codex: SM, right?

[sfshilo]

This about sums up almost all recent books IMO.

I think people are butthurt that they are not getting overpowering codices.

Eldar, Tau, and to some extent marines are all out of whack.

Add to that the rediculous holding onto of the standard force org chart by alot of groups and voila, "crappy" codexes??????

Play seventh to its fullest extent, the codexes are not the issue.

[Chris*ta]

Regarding the "Assault marines are no longer Troops" thing, the Blood Angels are meant to be a Codex chapter, right? So they shouldn't have more Assault marines than any other chapter. They should have access to more jump pack marines than other chapters, but that can be Death Company and Honour Guard.

I know some people are upset that they're no longer able to field the armies that they've previously played, and (arguably) some of the BA successors should have more Assault marines than Codex, but there are ways to get around both of these things ...

[Charistoph]

I imagine you also think Dark Angels should just be put into Codex: SM, right?

If they did it with the non-codex-adherent Templars, and if they organized Blood Angels to do so, it wouldn't be that hard for the codex-adherent Unforgiven. It would even be possible (though, more challenging) to move Space Wolves in, too.

And if it's fine for Chaos Marines, why not the Loyalists?

Note, the question is meant to be taken light-heartedly, yet the underlying concepts are serious.

If it is better to reduce the Marine Glut, then the rest of the Loyalists should be brought in. If more Marine armies are better for the game, then why are there not more Chaos Marine books?

Personally, I'd be happy if both Loyalist and Chaos Marine codices were reduced down to two sets of books each.

On the Loyalist side we have the Adherents, who operate under the precepts of the Codex Astartes with minor alterations at most, and the Legionaires who still operate as they did when Roboute played the role of Emperor and ignore all but the tactical premises of the Codex.

On the Choas side there are the Devoted, these are the Legions who have Cultish devotion of some kind to the Big Four, Word Bearers, Black Legion, Death Guard, etc., while the other book would be operating more as Renegades, and carry the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, maybe even the Red Corsairs.

But that's just me.

[BigGrim]

I seriously doubt they'll roll all marine chapters into one book. For one, it makes no sense what-so-ever. For two, they'd only sell one book instead of five.

This is particularly true in that all these other codexes do NOT operate like Codex Chapters. So sorry, it makes zero sense.

[Drew da Destroya]

• A unique HQ who grants an benefit that is almost unheard of in the entire game (go ahead and tell me how many models buff their squads' WS there are in this game... I'll wait...)

Orks have at least two different ways to do this. The Waaaagh! Banna (Nobz only, but affects any attached ICs), and Da Lukky Stikk, which is a Waaagh Banna for an IC (and thus, can be used for any mob... even grots, if you're insane), plus buffing the IC who is holding said Stikk.

Bumping up a squad's WS, while not common, is hardly unheard of.

[Charistoph]

I seriously doubt they'll roll all marine chapters into one book. For one, it makes no sense what-so-ever. For two, they'd only sell one book instead of five.

This is particularly true in that all these other codexes do NOT operate like Codex Chapters. So sorry, it makes zero sense.

Yet, it has happened with the Black Templars. And only Wolves were less Codex adherent with a book.

[GrauGeist]

I seriously doubt they'll roll all marine chapters into one book. For one, it makes no sense what-so-ever. For two, they'd only sell one book instead of five.

This is particularly true in that all these other codexes do NOT operate like Codex Chapters. So sorry, it makes zero sense.

Actually, they'd sell 2 books on average:

Codex: Space Marines (Ultramarines)

plus $50 sub-Codices with 2 pages of rules that still requires C:SM:
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Raven Guard
Codex: Space Wolfs
etc.

Most players would have to spend $125 just to keep up with the army they already own.

It's an obvious cash grab that makes a lot of sense.

[BigGrim]

Yet, it has happened with the Black Templars. And only Wolves were less Codex adherent with a book.

Nonsense. All the other chapter are first founding chapters with a lot to make em different. Templars? Second founding chapter which weren't really that different. Wolves in particular are completely different and pay no attention to the Codex.

[Charistoph]

Nonsense. All the other chapter are first founding chapters with a lot to make em different. Templars? Second founding chapter which weren't really that different. Wolves in particular are completely different and pay no attention to the Codex.

First Founding wasn't a point you raised. And where is the rule for that, that only First Founders could have a codex? Especially when the Templars already had one?

And for their codex, as I said, they were almost as codex unadherent as the Space Wolves, and pay just as much attention to it. Quite unlike the Codex-adherent Dark and Blood Angels.

And this is GW's words, not mine.

[40kGamer]

First Founding wasn't a point you raised. And where is the rule for that, that only First Founders could have a codex? Especially when the Templars already had one?

And for their codex, as I said, they were almost as codex unadherent as the Space Wolves, and pay just as much attention to it. Quite unlike the Codex-adherent Dark and Blood Angels.

And this is GW's words, not mine.

Have to agree. The unique rulebooks are meant for any chapter that doesn't follow the codex. Space Wolves are the most divergent but Templars were pretty far out there. They've really had to stretch to make Dark Angels and Blood Angels different enough to justify the separate books. I suspect that Templars got rolled in for a couple of reasons...

1) They gave the Knight fluff to Dark Angels which made Templar Knights redundant.
2) They didn't generate enough sales for them to keep supporting them as a separate chapter.

[Charistoph]

2) They didn't generate enough sales for them to keep supporting them as a separate chapter.

The really sad part is that there was little way to identify their sales as separate from regular Marines, any more than Dark Angels pre-6th, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Now, you have the unique Vehicles only THEY can use per codex plus the codices themselves to any where accurately track that.

[40kGamer]

The really sad part is that there was little way to identify their sales as separate from regular Marines, any more than Dark Angels pre-6th, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Now, you have the unique Vehicles only THEY can use per codex plus the codices themselves to any where accurately track that.

It would be ace to set in an actual GW product planning meeting, I suspect if we really knew how they made decisions we may all laugh or cry! :p

I think there would be enough sales to support Templars. If they had given them a unique spread of tanks/infantry kits like they have done with Blood/Dark Angels at this point... or if they had left the Land Raider variants as Templar only...

Even without supporting additional kits why not just print a new codex for them? It's not like a lot of time or thought is going into them anymore. Someone could probably knock it out and have it off to the printers in a couple days. The Grey Knights actually got nothing with the last codex update!

[Charistoph]

It would be ace to set in an actual GW product planning meeting, I suspect if we really knew how they made decisions we may all laugh or cry! :p

I think there would be enough sales to support Templars. If they had given them a unique spread of tanks/infantry kits like they have done with Blood/Dark Angels at this point... or if they had left the Land Raider variants as Templar only...

Even without supporting additional kits why not just print a new codex for them? It's not like a lot of time or thought is going into them anymore. Someone could probably knock it out and have it off to the printers in a couple days. The Grey Knights actually got nothing with the last codex update!

No one at GW is willing to make new model kits for them right now. Either in sculpt, drawing, or rules. That's the problem.

Personally, I would think a Chaplain Dreadnought and squad of mini-Chaplains-in-training would be a fun unit to have. The old Angry Marine fandex Rhino that could fire Marine units over a distance would also be fun (if not accurate). An Open-Topped Rhino would be a treasure, no matter the Marine army. There are ways to separate them out further, but do they have the guts?

Not that has anything to do with the Blood Angels over all.

The funny part is when rumors where flying around about Templars being folded in, I maintained that both Angels could be easily inserted in to the codex easier than the Templars (which in a way is still a little true). Odd now how it seems to be coming full circle...

[jeffersonian000]

Have people considered the fact that by rolling the Black Templers into the main SM codex, the BT now gain access to units like Thunderfire Cannons? Remember all the complaining back in the day from the non-SM codex Marine players about not getting the new cool toys? By rolling the BT in with the regular SM, they keep their uniqueness while gaining the newness. GW obviously wanted the DA, SW, and BA to retain separate unit selections uniquely their own, while the BT became a test to see if unique units and a chapter traits work.

SJ

[John Bower]

Think Tyranid Primes allow units they join to use his WS.

Not sure if it's WS or BS on that one. I know you are basically right though. :)

[DarkLink]

• Another unique HQ option

So do Black Templar.



• A unique and envied weapons option for tactical squads.

GW can literally delete a single footnote in the SM codex to change this.



• The ability to take as an Elite something everyone else can only take as an HQ.

Like GW cares what FOC slot they stick units in nowadays. When they make a new SM codex they'll probably duplicate this anyways.



• Two unique infantry units.

Black Templar have one and they're in the SM codex. And Death Company are basically just assault marines with FNP and Rage or whatever.



• A unique tank.

It's a Predator with different gun options.



• Several tanks granted the Fast USR.

Iron Hands tanks get IWND. No reason they couldn't duplicate that with Fast for BA Chapter Tactics.



• Characterful takes on the concept of ironclad and venerable dreadnoughts.

They're basically just ironclad/venerable dreads with slightly different weapon options. Considering how bad most Dreadnoughts are, GW already needs to rework dreadnought profiles as it is.



• Several unique special characters

A few special characters to go along with the three dozen other ones already in the SM codex.



• A unique Detachment that gives another important and rarely seen benefit.

If GW had the time or inclination, everyone would have a unique detachment, and every detachment gives some sort of important and rarely seen benefit.



If GW updated in a more timely fashion, then sure. Everyone can get their own codex. But even cranking out books at an absurd rate means it might still be six months or a year before you get a new codex and balance issues get addressed, even if you're lucky. So instead of having a million SM codices, which always get left by the wayside every time the vanilla SM codex gets updated, one SM codex to rule them all, with flexible and expansive rules. They can then release dataslates and formations at will to give each SM faction their minute in the limelight.