Flamers + ruins levels + Jump Infantry...

[Lost Vyper]

Hello,

Because of the levels being completely ignored by the 7th edition, questions arise...

1. If regular Infantry model shoots a flamer in the bottom floor of the ruins, does it hit that floor AND one above?
2. If regular Infantry model shoots a flamer in the first floor of the ruins, does it hit that floor AND one above AND below?
3. If a Jump Infantry jumps/deep strikes, can he reach fe. to the top floor of the ruin if he wants to?

For example...today the GK Interceptor squad Deep Struck near my Venom, about 7-9" up on top of some "oil drums". My opponent claimed, that a Jump unit can flame them up there, while still being on the ground. Is this accurate? That cost me a Kabalite Warrior team and one HP from the Venom...

I don´t understand, why GW makes things even HARDER, by releasing new rules...

If you find some answers, please gimme a page number, or a link, thanks!

- Lost Vyper

[Charistoph]

1. If regular Infantry model shoots a flamer in the bottom floor of the ruins, does it hit that floor AND one above?
2. If regular Infantry model shoots a flamer in the first floor of the ruins, does it hit that floor AND one above AND below?

Templates hit ALL the models beneath them, no matter what fires them, including Blasts. There are no rules for differentiating between floors at this time.


3. If a Jump Infantry jumps/deep strikes, can he reach fe. to the top floor of the ruin if he wants to?

"Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor." - BRB, Special Rules, Deep Strike, Arriving by Deep Strike, 2nd paragraph after bullets.

[Wolfshade]

Edition slip.

Are floors see-through?

i.e. The model is under the footprint of the template but as you can't physically see it is it still hit?

[Lost Vyper]

This we have used, we have holes in the ruins floors...

[jeffersonian000]

Did the GK Interceptors Deep Strike, or did they Shunt? If they Shunted, then yes, they can arrive on any level, because Shunt is a 30" move that ignores interviening terrain. As to the Template, GW dropped the ball and ignored decades of precedence in their own rules to gives us the current no-levels/markers hit everyone rules we see in 7th. Common sense tells us the rules support line of sight for hit determination, as seen in the Shooting section, yet the Blast and Template rules seem to ignore this via omission.

SJ

[Lost Vyper]

You missed the point here. My friend said, that because they are a Jump Unit, they can flame any level even when arriving from Deep Strike.

[mathhammer]

You missed the point here. My friend said, that because they are a Jump Unit, they can flame any level even when arriving from Deep Strike.

yes, but they flame all floors at once.

[Blood Shadow]

yes, but they flame all floors at once.

Only partially true...

You must place the narrow tip of the template against the shooting models base!

Shooting vertically with templates limits the horizontal range, but all models on all floors that are covered by the template are hit.

Jump packs cannot be used in the shooting phase. So the model's base is where it finished at the end of the movement phase. As mentioned previously this is the bottom/ lowest floor with deep striking units.

So if a template is 9" it can only feasibly hit 1 model three levels up if each level is c.3" in height.... Even hitting a single floor up will reduce the horizontal range a fair bit

[Lost Vyper]

So, to sum it up. They CAN flame which floor they want, but the flamer template has to be in base contact, as in regular flaming situation?

[Blood Shadow]

So, to sum it up. They CAN flame which floor they want, but the flamer template has to be in base contact, as in regular flaming situation?

Yes... Provided they have LoS...Provided you try to hit as many models in the target squad as possible

[Katharon]

Yeah, this is one of the 7th Ed. rules -- or lack thereof -- that I am major disappoint in with GW. The fact that as long as models are beneath a template, regardless of levels, means that pretty much any template weapon just got that much deadlier.

[John Bower]

Only partially true...

You must place the narrow tip of the template against the shooting models base!

Shooting vertically with templates limits the horizontal range, but all models on all floors that are covered by the template are hit.

Jump packs cannot be used in the shooting phase. So the model's base is where it finished at the end of the movement phase. As mentioned previously this is the bottom/ lowest floor with deep striking units.

So if a template is 9" it can only feasibly hit 1 model three levels up if each level is c.3" in height.... Even hitting a single floor up will reduce the horizontal range a fair bit

Actually if you look at the diagram in the BRB there's no way on this planet that template is actually in base contact with the firing model; there's a wall in the way. So they too would have to lift it up. I see it as just another measuring tool; and if you think about it really it is. What do you do to measure range if you have say a 24" tall ruin in the way; remember the same rule technically applies which is that you must measure from the base (or hull) of the firing model. You can't do that if you have a 24" tall ruin in the way, so common sense dictates you lift the tape measure up with the assistance of your opponent to measure the correct distance.

I'm not advocating that you can go around flaming models 6 stories up as that again would be a common sense situation; it's pretty obvious the flamer isn't likely to reach unless it has multiple pressure settings (unlikely as you'd use them to get the extra range to begin with although in fairness flamers range is lame compared to real life anyway). I think it's just mostly a case of sometimes they have let you 'think for yourself' which is a good thing. If you really want them to cover every situation that you can find a hole with; well I dunno about you guys but I'm not paying what they would charge for 40k pages of rules thanks.

[Blood Shadow]

Actually if you look at the diagram in the BRB there's no way on this planet that template is actually in base contact with the firing model; there's a wall in the way. So they too would have to lift it up. I see it as just another measuring tool; and if you think about it really it is. What do you do to measure range if you have say a 24" tall ruin in the way; remember the same rule technically applies which is that you must measure from the base (or hull) of the firing model. You can't do that if you have a 24" tall ruin in the way, so common sense dictates you lift the tape measure up with the assistance of your opponent to measure the correct distance.

I'm not advocating that you can go around flaming models 6 stories up as that again would be a common sense situation; it's pretty obvious the flamer isn't likely to reach unless it has multiple pressure settings (unlikely as you'd use them to get the extra range to begin with although in fairness flamers range is lame compared to real life anyway). I think it's just mostly a case of sometimes they have let you 'think for yourself' which is a good thing. If you really want them to cover every situation that you can find a hole with; well I dunno about you guys but I'm not paying what they would charge for 40k pages of rules thanks.

To be fair the question was referring to the "special" ability of jump troops to fire at high levels... not that he couldn't follow the letter of the rules because of some novel incongruity as a wall being in the way.

If you're looking to fire up a level then touch the flamer to the base, if you're standing next to a wall but firing horizontally then hover the template old school using agreed common sense.... it's not that loose a rule really, and doesn't ask too much from an opponent to agree a solution in odd situations.

But lets not forget when firing at levels, even with a template weapon you still need LoS, now I don't know of many terrain features more with than a couple of floors which can be seen through....

[Belial69]

My group decided that it was all crazy so we went back to flamers hit one floor. Either the level you are on, or one floor up or down. And barrage out of line of sight can only hit the models on the floor that the hole lands on, unless fired directly with line of sight. In which case a lower floor can be hit unless it scatters to a lower one. Same with regular blasts.

[John Bower]

To be fair the question was referring to the "special" ability of jump troops to fire at high levels... not that he couldn't follow the letter of the rules because of some novel incongruity as a wall being in the way.

If you're looking to fire up a level then touch the flamer to the base, if you're standing next to a wall but firing horizontally then hover the template old school using agreed common sense.... it's not that loose a rule really, and doesn't ask too much from an opponent to agree a solution in odd situations.

But lets not forget when firing at levels, even with a template weapon you still need LoS, now I don't know of many terrain features more with than a couple of floors which can be seen through....

yeah sorry, there's so many posts about this I posted on the wrong one.... oops; my bad.

[Da Gargoyle]

While reading this thread I recalled that some of the rules for strong points and buildings are now covered by expansion rules such as Strong Point Assault or Cities of Death that use cityfighting rules. I checked with the local GW store guy and he confirmed this.

So in cities of death, templates only impact one level, as do blast templates. Further, a flamer can only impact the level its on, 1 level above or 1 level below. However, if the unit you target has troops on 3 levels, and you have more than 1 flamer, cue burna boys, you could flame multiple levels because each flamer is shooting at a different level and all the target troops belong to the same unit. Any other enemy units caught are a bonus, you can't flame an area if it will catch your troops.

Your target unit must have someone in line of sight, to flame them, so the target unit can ask that question.

But once again I watched a devious character get around that one. A squad of marines were hidden behind a Rhino. So the attacker flamed the Rhino and the overshoot hit the marines who were not entitled to a cover save. Rather fiendish I thought.

As far as touching the base of the firing model. You can hold the template up so the tip is over the model's base but the template is still horizontal the ground. This obviously means you get more surface area than if you touched the base but think of it as an equalising factor for the fact that actual flame would bounce down off the roof in a building or arc across a surface given the fuel source is liquid.

It is probably wise to cover this before the game starts though. So no one is caught on the hop when the issue arises.