Soulless vs. Stubborn ?

[Force21]

Hey I have a quick question for all of you.


Which rule takes precedence over the other...Soulless or Stubborn?


I would think Soulless....

but I am not sure so I was just wondering what you think.


Have fun. :D

[rle68]

why would either one matter? since souless isnt in the rulebook its a codex ability versus a universal rule ( i do believe)... we need more info here

[Nabterayl]

"Codex > Rulebook" doesn't really solve this. Codex rules only override main rulebook rules if they explicitly say so, or run directly contrary to a main rulebook rule.

Soulless reads "Any unit (friend or foe) with a model within 12" of the Culexus Assassin counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than this."

Weaken Resolve, by contrast, says "For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)."

And Stubborn says "When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

So the question is, what is a "negative Leadership modifier?" Or to put it another way, does a rule have to say "-x Leadership modifier" to count (see, e.g., pages 44 and 58)?

I would argue that's too narrow - I'd say that a negative Leadership modifier is any effect that reduces your Leadership from what's printed in the book. After all, if my Leadership is normally 9, and within 12" of a Culexus it's 7, it has been changed by a negative amount. "Change" is one of the normal meanings of "modify." I think it's silly to try to read some kind of technical distinction into the 40K rules between "change" and "modify" unless the rules tell us to do so. Goodness knows GW is bad enough at not using the same term consistently without us inventing terms of art for them.

So I'd say that a Stubborn unit is affected by Soulless for all Leadership tests that are not Morale tests. For instance, a Stubborn Ld9 unit within range of Soulless would be Ld7 for Pinning tests, Ld7 for psychic tests, Ld7 for special rules that explicitly call for a Leadership test, but Ld9 for Morale tests such as trying not to Fall Back or getting Tank Shocked.

[DarkLink]

"Codex > Rulebook" doesn't really solve this. Codex rules only override main rulebook rules if they explicitly say so, or run directly contrary to a main rulebook rule.

Soulless reads "Any unit (friend or foe) with a model within 12" of the Culexus Assassin counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than this."

Weaken Resolve, by contrast, says "For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)."

And Stubborn says "When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

So the question is, what is a "negative Leadership modifier?" Or to put it another way, does a rule have to say "-x Leadership modifier" to count (see, e.g., page 58)?

I would argue that's too narrow - I'd say that a negative Leadership modifier is any effect that reduces your Leadership from what's printed in the book. After all, if my Leadership is normally 9, and within 12" of a Culexus it's 7, it has been changed by a negative amount. "Change" is one of the normal meanings of "modify." I think it's silly to try to read some kind of technical distinction into the 40K rules between "change" and "modify" unless the rules tell us to do so. Goodness knows GW is bad enough at not using the same term consistently without us inventing terms of art for them.

So I'd say that a Stubborn unit is affected by Soulless for all Leadership tests that are not Morale tests. For instance, a Stubborn Ld9 unit within range of Soulless would be Ld7 for Pinning tests, Ld7 for psychic tests, Ld7 for special rules that explicitly call for a Leadership test, but Ld9 for Morale tests such as trying not to Fall Back or getting Tank Shocked.

I agree with this, I think.

Ok, so I haven't really thought about this, but it sounds right.

[plasticaddict]

Soulless makes you leadership 7 unless it would normally be lower, this is not modifier to your leadership stat rather it is changing it to a new value. A pinning test caused by Barrage weapons causes a -1 modifier to your leadership, Stubborn ignores this modifier just as it does the modifier for losing combat. If you are in range of a model with the soulless rule you are Ld 7.

[Nabterayl]

A pinning test caused by Barrage weapons causes a -1 modifier to your leadership, Stubborn ignores this modifier just as it does the modifier for losing combat.
I agree about all of this, as far as it goes. I'm curious:


Soulless makes you leadership 7 unless it would normally be lower, this is not modifier to your leadership stat rather it is changing it to a new value.
What, in your mind, is the distinction between a "modifier" to your leadership and a "change" to your leadership? I can think of several possible distinctions:
Leadership "modifiers" use the word "modifier" in the description of the effect, whereas "changes" don't use the magic word.
Leadership "modifiers" are expressed as +x or -x, whereas "changes" are just expressed as x.
Leadership "modifiers" are temporary, whereas "changes" last the rest of the game.
Any of those are reasonable ways that we could differentiate between "modifiers" and "changes" if we felt like it. Here's my question, though: where does the rulebook suggest that we should differentiate between "modifiers" and "changes?"

[plasticaddict]

Nabterayl:
As some effects quantify a modifier by exprssing it as "-"( in the case of a barrage weapon) or by telling you to subtract a value from your leadership (as is the case in combat resolution) I would place those effects in the category of modifing leadership. In the case of the souless rule it does not tell you to negatively modify your leadership value rather it tells you to exchange it for a different set value. While these effects are modifications of your leadership stat some are expressely a negative modifier the other is an exchange of one value to another. In the case of a battle Psyker squad their rule is also not a negative modifier to your Leadership while it is a reduction (a type of negative effect) it is not a negative modifier rather it is a change in the statistic. GW has a bad habit of using similar terms to explain different effects however as there are some effects that clearly impose a negative modifier to your stat and others that while imposing a negative penalty are changes to the stat not a modifier. I believe that only those rules instructing you to subtract from your leadership are negated by the Stubborn rule.

[Force21]

What, in your mind, is the distinction between a "modifier" to your leadership and a "change" to your leadership? I can think of several possible distinctions:
Leadership "modifiers" use the word "modifier" in the description of the effect, whereas "changes" don't use the magic word.
Leadership "modifiers" are expressed as +x or -x, whereas "changes" are just expressed as x.
Leadership "modifiers" are temporary, whereas "changes" last the rest of the game.
Any of those are reasonable ways that we could differentiate between "modifiers" and "changes" if we felt like it. Here's my question, though: where does the rulebook suggest that we should differentiate between "modifiers" and "changes?"



In the Soulless entry it does not say change...

It says Counts as Ld 7.


It was a really confusing question to myself & my bro... that is why I posted this here...

maybe next time I am at a GW I can ask...

[plasticaddict]

In the Soulless entry it does not say change...

It says Counts as Ld 7.


It was a really confusing question to myself & my bro... that is why I posted this here...

maybe next time I am at a GW I can ask...

I wish you luck with that, my gaming groups collectived experience of getting information from GW staff has not been very good. The best way to do it is to call GW directly and ask your question, about 5 times and go with the answer you get most often.

[BuFFo]

I really get sick with this ridiculous internet word play crap.

LD of 10 that got changed to 7 has been negatively modified. Period.

When you take a Morale Test (Not a LD Test or Pinning Test) a Stubborn Unit's LD will stay it's printed LD. Otherwise, Soulless will drop the printed LD to 7.

[plasticaddict]

I really get sick with this ridiculous internet word play crap.

LD of 10 that got changed to 7 has been negatively modified. Period.

When you take a Morale Test (Not a LD Test or Pinning Test) a Stubborn Unit's LD will stay it's printed LD. Otherwise, Soulless will drop the printed LD to 7.

Last I checked Pinning tests and most Leadership tests were moral test, Soulless even affects Psychic tests as it changes your stat. As Souless is very specific about what models units it affects (only those above LD 7) it is not the same as a negative modifier, it's not a play on words it's a different effect.

A Commissar is stubborn in the face of the Enemy and is able to ignore incoming fire and the men under his command dying, however being in the presence of a psychic null is unnerving to anyone no matter how courageous. You just want to get away from them.

[Nabterayl]

Last I checked Pinning tests and most Leadership tests were moral test
Check again, then. Pinning is not a Morale test. Morale comes up when Tank Shocked, when losing a close combat, and when suffering 25% or more casualties in the Movement or Shooting phases. That's ... about it.

I'm with BuFFo (or BuFFo's with me). Yes, you could draw a distinction between "changes" and "modifies." But in ordinary English you don't. I see nothing in the rulebook that makes "modifiers" its own special game concept.

[Denzark]

Here we have another RAW/RAI/semantics of the English language. I would go with Stubborn coming into play with the word 'modify/ies/er and a -/+ followed by a figure, and not working for soulless as it doesn't have said 'M' word and a figure. Yes modify is another word for change, we also have alter, adapt, transform, transmogrify (thanks team America), evolve, mould, warp, and any other contextual meaning. However I think the cleanest RAW interpretation is as I describe above.

Going for RAI/fluff to back it up - if such a bad pimp daddy as Gregor Eisenhorn can't man up to squire the love of his life because she is a blank, how is a poxy commissar going to stop a Officio operative whose sole training and creation is to f*ck with your chi, from effecting him and a load of basic humans?

[BuFFo]

This BS about what 'modify' means in 40k is such a joke, I can't take people seriously on it.....