MC Cover Saves

[darkninja962]

If I have a Hive Tyrant with a unit of 3 Tyrant Guard, and the tyrant guard are in cover ( behind some unit, or in area terrain ), but the Hive Tyrant is not, will the Hive tyrant receive a cover save since 75% of the unit is in some sort of cover? Even though monstrous creatures will not normally receive some kind of benefit in these circumstances? Or will only the tyrant guard receive one, and if that's the case do I only count them for models that count as in cover? ie 2 of 3 Tyrant guard in cover grants a save vs 2 in 4 models (3 Tyrant Guard and 1 Hive Tyrant ) grants a 5+ cover save.

[Nabterayl]

If you have a hive tyrant out of cover and three accompanying tyrant guard in cover, then yes, the entire unit gets a cover save.

As long as at least 50% of the unit is "in cover", the entire unit gets a cover save. Check whether models are "in cover" on a model by model basis.

People often confuse being in cover with having a cover save. They're two separate concepts (though obviously related).

[Mobious]

" . . . for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. Also standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monstrous creatures - the 50% rules takes precedence. COver for them works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)."

Well we had this argument over on Y.T.T.H and basically decided that the issue needs an FAQ. The unit rule and the one above contradict each other. Just imagine if a vehicle was able to join a squad, would it claim a cover save if the unit was in obscured but it was out in the open. I do not think so because the 50% rule should take precedence, but then again the unit rules provide an equally strong argument.

Usually when the rule is this debated, I go with the more restrictive. I do not like taking advantage and then finding out later I was cheating the whole time.

Oh and the quote is there so we can have a real argument based on rule's quotes, not JUST opinions.

[Nabterayl]

I really disagree that this is at all ambiguous. Mobious has provided the rule for determining whether a monstrous creature is "in cover," as the rule says. Now, turn to page 22, for the rules on how we treat units where only some models are in cover and others are not:

"If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves."

Page 51 tells us how to determine whether a monstrous creature is in cover or not. Page 22 tells us what that means, if the monstrous creature is part of a unit where some models are in cover and others are not.

[vandal]

Being in a unit does not change the 50% rule so the unit now has two tests to follow as far as I can see.

Is the unit in 50 cover and is the MC 50% hidden? If the answer to the first is yes and the second no its not in cover as both sets of rules have not been met.

But if it was agreed or clear cut one would not discuss it I guess.

[Nabterayl]

Being in a unit does not change the 50% rule so the unit now has two tests to follow as far as I can see.
Re-read the rule more closely. The 50% rule is for determining whether a monstrous creature is in cover. That is all.

Models in cover, of any kind, do not receive a cover save simply because they are in cover. Let me pose a simple example:


A squad of space marines has been reduced to three models. One model is standing behind a wall facing the enemy. His two squadmates are standing in the open. The unit is hit, and wounded, by three plasma gun shots . The space marine player says that two space marines die and that the marine standing behind the wall gets to take a cover save.

The example above is wrong, as page 22 says. Even though the third space marine is in cover, he does not get a cover save, because less than 50% of his unit is in cover.

Now flip it around:


The same squad of three space marines is now standing so that two models are standing behind a wall facing the enemy, and one is in the open. The unit is hit, and wounded, by three plasma gun shots. The space marine's opponent says that the one marine in the open does not get a cover save.

This example is also wrong, as page 22 says. Even though the third space marine is not in cover, he gets a cover save, because 50% or more of his unit is in cover.

The only difference that a hive tyrant makes is that the rules for determining whether a hive tyrant is in cover are different. A couple examples, using a hive tyrant and two attached tyrant guard:


Example 1 - hive tyrant not in cover, but gets a cover save.
The hive tyrant is standing behind in the open. His two tyrant guard are standing behind a wall, facing the enemy. As infantry, the two tyrant guard are in cover. The hive tyrant is obviously not in cover. The unit is hit, and wounded, by three plasma gun shots. Because two of the three models in the unit are in cover, the entire unit (including the hive tyrant) gets a cover save.


Example 2 - hive tyrant in cover, but does not get a cover save.
The hive tyrant is standing behind a wall which covers 50% of his body from the enemy's point of view. His two tyrant guards are standing in the open. Because the hive tyrant is 50% obscured from the firer's point of view, he is in cover. The two tyrant guards in the open are obviously not in cover. The unit is hit, and wounded, by three plasma gun shots. Because only one of the three models in the unit is in cover, no model in the unit gets a cover save.

There are two 50% rules here:50% of the monstrous creature (which determines whether or not the monstrous creature is in cover), and 50% of the unit (which determines whether any models in the unit get a cover save, whether they are in cover or not).

So the procedure is this:
Is the monstrous creature 50% obscured? If so, he counts as being in cover.
Are the non-monstrous creatures in the unit 1% obscured? If so, they count as being in cover.
Are at least 50% of the models in the unit in cover? If so, the entire unit gets a cover save.