Khaine - Spoilerific Discussion

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

So as with Glottkin, starting the thread good and early. And as with Nagash and Glottkin - if you don't want spoilers, stop reading now!
































Still here? Ace.

If you've got solid rumors about the content, put them here!

Apparently, White Dwarf confirms that it's Tyrion who draws Widowmaker, causing the Phoenix Guard to side with Malekith who is proclaimed Phoenix King, but all Khainites to back Tyrion. Yep, it all just got mixed up!

Seems that there is a strong suggestion that something very, very fishy happened when Malekith walked into the Flame of Asuryan the first time around....

[RGilbert26]

As in someone fiddled with the Oven as he was walking through it :P

[Wildeybeast]

I've grabbed the iBooks preview. As it was only snippet, it was hard to make full sense of, but it's clear that Imrik and the Dragon riders ally with Malektih's invasion and turn on their fellow high elves. Telcis said something to hi, to make him do so, something that was apparently backed by up by Caledor Dragontamer himself!

[Yriel_The_Angelic]

Honestly wouldn't surprise me if it was Morathi who mucked up the Flames of Asuryan in a gamble in which she could completely corrupt her son and eventually make him her puppet. I mean, she was/ is a legitimate Chaos worshiper. She was the one who played the part of innocent mother while orchestrating the death of his Wife. She might also side with Tyrion, whom looks exactly like Aenarion, forgot which book but she tried to seduce Tyrion based under this notion. With the drawing of Widowmaker he is now the closest thing to Aenarion. But this is my educated guess.

[Wildeybeast]

Does anyone actually need to have deliberately sabotaged his walk through the flames? The Time of Legends book has the high priest trying to stop Malektih walking through because the proper rituals haven't been done to prepare it, which were extra necessary when he had chopped a bunch of dudes up in the temple. Could it simply be as simple as that? If he hadn't been so impatient, he would have passed through safely?

[Mr Mystery]

Could well be. Would also make a mockery of the Phoenix line if it is just based on film-flam and chicanery!

[Wildeybeast]

I Know what really happened to Malekith all those years ago. I also know (some of) what Teclis has been up to. Spoilertastic so be warned.



The flames weren't sabotaged or ineptly prepared. It was a test. Asuryan intended to imbue Malekith with his full power, but wanted him to prove his worth. If Malekith had managed to hold out a bit longer, he would have passed and been granted the full power. Although Asuryan was disappointed, he did not give up on Malekith. He has supported him all this time, even sending dreams to plague all the false Phoenix kings, and the whole war has been about Malekith proving his strength of will.

As for Teclis, his plan is to unlock the great vortex and imbue eight mortals with the full power of each of the winds of magic so they can rival the Chaos gods. How and who I don't know, but I'm guessing Nagash is obviously death. Malekith was supposed to be fire, but the ritual is sabotaged somehow (I'm guessing Morathi) and Malekith ends up as shadow. Let the guessing games begin who the others are.

[Mr Mystery]

This is getting sooooooooo cool!!!

[Houghten]

Well, we don't need to guess that Alarielle is Incarnate of Life...

I don't think Nagash is the Incarnate of Death, though. At least, not yet. The winds of Dhar and Shyish aren't the same, and when would Teclis have performed his ritual? Likewise I think Karl Franz getting hit by a comet was just that - not a transformation into the Incarnate of Fire or Metal.

Just imagine what their rules will be like when they do get empowered!

[buggle]

True Dhar and Shyish aren't the same but when he rose all the amethyst wizards either died or turned ethereal. So he obviously made some effect on death magic.

If mazdamundi is the incarnate of heavens, then woe betide us all....... Asteroid belt of Cassandora

[Mr Mystery]

Well, we don't need to guess that Alarielle is Incarnate of Life...

I don't think Nagash is the Incarnate of Death, though. At least, not yet. The winds of Dhar and Shyish aren't the same, and when would Teclis have performed his ritual? Likewise I think Karl Franz getting hit by a comet was just that - not a transformation into the Incarnate of Fire or Metal.

Just imagine what their rules will be like when they do get empowered!

I kind of suspect it was Nagash wrenching an entire Wind of Magic out of the Vortex that gave Teclis the idea....

[Wildeybeast]

In Answer to a post on the rumours thread, Malus Darkblade is part of Malekith's invasion of Ulthuan. There is a passage described where Tzarkan gets the better of him and runs amok and only the intervention of a mysterious sorceress (clearly Morathi in disguise) helps Malus get back in control. He then has to grovelling the the witch king for his mysterious absence.

[Archon Charybdis]

Did I miss something, what does Nagash have to do with Dark Magic? I thought the book specifically said he drew in Shyish. Also, I didn't think High and Dark drew on their own unique winds, rather Dhar was sort of a primordial pre-magic substance and Qhaysh was a super-refined combination of all 8 winds.

[White Tiger88]

In Answer to a post on the rumours thread, Malus Darkblade is part of Malekith's invasion of Ulthuan. There is a passage described where Tzarkan gets the better of him and runs amok and only the intervention of a mysterious sorceress (clearly Morathi in disguise) helps Malus get back in control. He then has to grovelling the the witch king for his mysterious absence.

Interesting, I hope he is there when Alith Anar kills Morathi... (Please let it be Alith Anar...)

[eldargal]

I've blown through the ebook, so I'll attempt to allay some of the fears we all had about the fluff going forward. I feel Thorpe actually avoided tossing away the spirit of the fluff that had come before, like we all had feared he would. First, I like what he did with Malekith. There is no real redemption attempt. Malekith is exposed as a selfish coward. Had he endured a few more moments in the flames, he would have been reborn as his father had been. Teclis straight up calls him out, saying that had he not been too weak to endure the flames, the elves would have been spared 6000 years of civil war. He gets somewhat better, but he's still a prick. Oh, and Tyrion beats his ***, not once, but twice.

Second, the Asur don't suddenly love Malekith and hate Tyrion. The civil war is more nuanced than Malekith vs Tyrion. In fact, for most of the civil war, Malekith remains in hiding while Imrik does the majority of campaigning. Many of those that side with Imrik are not even aware Malekith is still alive. In addition, it doesn't seem like much of the Asur side with him anyway. Caledor and the Phoenix Guard do, and some parts of the other provinces, but for the most part his army is made up of the professional soldiers of the Druchii and the Asrai led by the Everqueen. The Asur seem to mostly take up Tyrion's side or, in increasing numbers as Tyrion gets crazier, flee to Anar's banner, who stays out of the war. And I think it all works. Once Malekith reveals himself, he starts losing more and more allies because, well, everybody hates Malekith. The final gambit is the unmaking of the Vortex. Tyrion beats Malekith in personal combat for the second time, but Anar intervenes, killing Tyrion. True to character, Anar also shoots Malekith, who only survives thanks to becoming the Incarnation of Shadow.

Finally, here's the big one that I'm sure everyone will hate. As speculated, the unmaking of the Vortex does indeed destroy Ulthuan. The survivors are transported by the Everqueen to Athel Loren. That's pretty much where the book ends. Anar and Malekith, both changed by the final battle, make a tentative peace. However, it is pretty clear that Malekith's ability to unite the survivors is very much in question. On a side note, you never actually see Teclis or Morathi bite it. We'll have to wait and see what End Times: Khaine has to say on the matter. Overall, I like the balance of how they united the elven factions. Everybody loses something big, but also has a big part of the remains. The Dark Elves lose Naggaroth, but Malekith becomes Phoenix King and the Incarnation of Shadow. The Asur lose Ulthuan, but the Everqueen survives to become the Incarnation of Life. The Asrai lose Orion, and it is implied that Ariel merges with the Everqueen, but Athel Loren becomes the home to the remaining elves.

Oh and I have no idea what happened to Morathi or Teclis. Their fates are not mentioned post-Vortex.

Imrik is extremely important to the story. There is no way Malekith is capable of even competing with Tyrion without the Dragons. As the Crown Prince of Caledor, Imrik plays a major part in that. We'll see what happens, but Malekith is the last Phoenix King period. The shrine of Asuryan collapses after Malekith is reborn in the flames, the last power of Asuryan expended. Imrik simply cannot become king even if Malekith dies. That said, I'd buy that Malekith could easily go down. The impression I got is that the Everqueen is far more important to the future of the elves. Malekith, plain and simple, feels expendable. If someone is going to survive to lead the Elves in the long term, I think it will be her.

As for Teclis's plan failing, you pretty much nailed it I think. Here's the last lines of the book:
"Lileath had lied to them. They had sanctuary, for a while, but all things fall to Chaos. Eventually."
Source (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67601&start=120)

- - - Updated - - -

Actually I'm kind of pissed off that Malekith is empowered and is worth 1000pts but Alarielle gets empowered and is only worth 500 points. Like it's just a coincidence that of the four empowered beings now three are men and literally worth twice ins points and abilities as the woman? Get your **** together GW.

[Houghten]

Looking at their rules instead of just their costs, Alarielle and Malekith are at about the same power level, I'd say, except for ability in close combat - but Malekith is a Monster, who must weather cannonballs to the face and win combats on his own, whereas Alarielle can be joined to a 460 point unit for the same overall price (say, a brick of 40 Eternal Guard).

Plus, of course, she can be included in games as small as 1080 points instead of 2000...

---

I cannot, of course, argue with you on the "only one woman" part, and I would suspect it will stay that way unless some entirely new characters spring from the woodwork (or new models for characters who have been out of print since the 90s). It's disappointing, and an entirely predictable reflection of the general lack of female characters in WHFB and WH40k.

[eldargal]

It's not so much that she is bad, but that of the four empowered beings so far the men are all capable of being beasts in combat, while the woman needs a unit to support her, and they are all costed nearly twice as much. I worry that even if we get even one more female empowered character she will wind up being another caster or support character..

I was hoping End Times could be used to shake it up a bit killing off a bunch of male characters creates room for more. After three books it could still go either way but I'm not hopeful.

[Mr Mystery]

I wouldn't expect Alarielle to be a combat beast though, given her background.

Otherwise I understand where you're coming from, and pretty much agree.

[eldargal]

Sure, but neither would Nagash necessarily, he's a caster but now he's a beast. I mean there is no reason why an empowered Alarielle couldn't be powerful in cc, it needn't amount to her literally punching stuff. She's the embodiment of Life it's going to be hard to kill her, and she already posessed the power (in the lore) to suck the evil out of chaos warlords and stuff and destroy them so something along those lines.

I mean it wouldn't be an issue if we also got a few other empowered women SCs who were combat beasts as well but as it stands if we are really, really lucky there might be one more.

[Mr Mystery]

She's got a souped up 'Super-Sayan Chaos Banishment Five Finger Death Punch', which is pretty neat.

Always wounds on a 2+, and if your from Forces of Destruction, D6 wounds. And 3 attacks with the Super-Sayan Chaos Banishment Five Finger Death Punch when Incarnate of Life.

Bit of spell weaving, and she becomes a horrific beast!

[eldargal]

Yeah she's good.:) Just also want a badass female armoured cc beast for once.><

[Mr Mystery]

Valkia?

I know since Daemonhood it's a very rough definition, given Daemons are essentially genderless, but still :p

One assumes you also own this beauty?

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99810213010_ManeaterFemaleNEW01.jpg

[eldargal]

Valkia is pretty good, but yes she's a daemon now and she is just one, the ogre isn't an SC.:p

[Erik Setzer]

Sure, but neither would Nagash necessarily, he's a caster but now he's a beast. I mean there is no reason why an empowered Alarielle couldn't be powerful in cc, it needn't amount to her literally punching stuff. She's the embodiment of Life it's going to be hard to kill her, and she already posessed the power (in the lore) to suck the evil out of chaos warlords and stuff and destroy them so something along those lines.

I mean it wouldn't be an issue if we also got a few other empowered women SCs who were combat beasts as well but as it stands if we are really, really lucky there might be one more.

Ah... Nagash always had a nifty sword and armor. It took a guy with a sword so pumped full of warpstone that it pretty much was a nuclear weapon for someone to actually beat Nagash in combat and "kill" him. And now he's made himself huge.

But the real point is that the guys who exist were already riding monsters, and with Nagash they wanted a new large expensive kit, whereas with Alarielle such a kit wouldn't really make sense for her. She's someone who should be in the middle of the army, lending her aid to it, rather than jumping all over the table in combat (and being a target). And it works to her benefit in the game, too. Malekith has all those rules for Elves around him, but he can't really join a unit and if he stays with the army he's slowing himself down from his full potential speed.

I have to admit, the new rules for her have pushed me to get Alarielle. I just hope I can do her justice in painting.

[Tomgar]

I, uh... Am not happy with how The End Times has treated the Asrai. At all. Honestly considering giving up Fantasy if all of this becomes established canon.

[Mr Mystery]

It is canon, on account it's from the Design Studio.

Doesn't get anymore canon.

Though I would urge waiting and reading. Currently we don't know how valid the non-image rumours are. Or how the Stick Pixies factor in.

There is nothing to say each species is getting just a single End Times entry. Glottkin and the end of Nagash suggest there is much more to come.

[Tomgar]

They could always "Storm of Magic" it and retcon the lot. And I just hate the idea that the Asrai have gotten so involved in another peoples' war, that Orion gets himself killed fighting some brat prince with a magic sword, that the Asrai seem to be cool with bending knee to Malekith where previously they viewed him with only contempt or pity and that the entire Elven race now seems to be based in Athel Loren. It's removed the aspects of the Wood Elves that I liked and seems to be turning them into little more than a sideshow for the other Elves. They're an excuse for other Elves to take Waywatchers in their army, essentially.

And considering it was the fluff of the Wood Elves that got me into Fantasy, having all my favourite bits of fluff either get trampled on by Malekith or impaled on the end of Tyrion's sword is just... Uch. Don't see any point in playing an army whose fluff I think is now awful.


Not meaning to be a buzzkill or anything, it's awesome if you're excited about this, but it could well be the thing that makes me bow out and stick to 40k :(

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

And considering it was the fluff of the Wood Elves that got me into Fantasy, having all my favourite bits of fluff either get trampled on by Malekith or impaled on the end of Tyrion's sword is just... Uch. Don't see any point in playing an army whose fluff I think is now awful.It's unlikely that 100% of each of the three factions have combined into a whole. If the books' next update is a combined Elves army book, I'd expect it to acknowledge/discuss the High Elves who don't associate with the "lesser elves", Dark Elf raiders thinking Malekith sold out, and forest-dwelling Wood Elves lead by Orion (dude comes back to life every year).

[Tomgar]

and forest-dwelling Wood Elves lead by Orion (dude comes back to life every year).

If Ariel's dead/gone/merged with Everqueen though, then Orion can't come back. And the Wood Elves have no Queen either. Also, if Ariel's gone, how will the forest even survive? Its fate is bound up inextricably with her own and now suddenly she's dead and the other Elves are randomly living in Athel Loren? Gah, I really hate this. Is this what Tomb Kings and Chaos players have already been through? If so, this End Times stuff suuuucks :p

[Mr Mystery]

So much if. Very little known.

As for the Asrai having contempt for Malekith - some of them would be loyal from pre-Stick Pixies days, when there was but one flavor of Pixy in Warhammer :p

[eldargal]

If Ariel's dead/gone/merged with Everqueen though, then Orion can't come back. And the Wood Elves have no Queen either. Also, if Ariel's gone, how will the forest even survive? Its fate is bound up inextricably with her own and now suddenly she's dead and the other Elves are randomly living in Athel Loren? Gah, I really hate this. Is this what Tomb Kings and Chaos players have already been through? If so, this End Times stuff suuuucks :p

Alarielle is the embodiment of Life and is in Athel Loren now so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have her sustain it IF Ariel is gone.

also just because armies have been combined in End Times books doesn't mean they won't get individual army lists in future army books.

[miteyheroes]

also just because armies have been combined in End Times books doesn't mean they won't get individual army lists in future army books.

Yes, it very much remains to be seen if the rumours of army books being folded together was just a garbled rumour about the End Times lists.

And if future Warhammer books are going to be based pre- during- or post- End Times.

I would not be entirely suprised to see End Times disappear and us revert to pre-End Times, like what happened with Albion or Storm of Chaos...

[eldargal]

I suspect End Times are here to stay, much more effort seems to have gone into them than Storm of Chaos and Albion.

[White Tiger88]

I suspect End Times are here to stay, much more effort seems to have gone into them than Storm of Chaos and Albion.

Well then time to start hunting down dark elf models to add to my Shadow King army...........

[Tomgar]

It's not the separate army lists I'm most bothered about! I just can't stand the bloody fluff. It's ruined the reason I started collecting Wood Elves in the first place and I'm probably going to sell up because I just don't give a crap about my own army any more. Blech. I'm gonna stop posting, this is something other people are excited about and I'm just being a buzzkill.

[Darren Richardson]

awww bo ho they ruined your fluff, so what?

You do know it's a game and like many other games such as Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder and such, you get to use what you want and throw the rest away, same thing applies to wargames, don't like the changes they made, use an older ruleset, or set your battles in the past ages of that world.

And remember it's not a Historical Period wargame like Flames of War or Bolt Action.... in the end it's YOUR game and YOUR army, play the game YOUR way.

:D

[Tomgar]

Yeah, when the fluff is the entire reason you got into it, it's still not great. And I can set my battles in the past all I want, doesn't stop the awfulness from becoming canon. To put it in perspective, this is basically "Star Wars prequels" level of enjoyment-ruining for me. So you may say "boohoo," but they have just ruined all the stuff I enjoyed about my army in the first place. I'm hardly throwing a tantrum and saying nobody else is allowed to enjoy it, just giving my opinion on something I'm financially and emotionally invested in.

[silashand]

For what it's worth, picked up my End Times: Khaine book today. Very well done IMO. Anyway, to answer someone else's earlier question about Morathi, it is not Alith Anar who kills her. She goes mad at the sight of Malekith apparently dead and starts attacking the vortex which is almost to the point of allowing Slaanesh to enter the mortal realm. She tries to back away as she realizes what is happening, but Caledor grabs hold of her and sacrifices both himself and her to the Dark Prince and they are both sucked into the vortex and probably into the Realm of Chaos. There is likely some possibility she may have survived since she is a true immortal and was unharmed by the raw winds of magic, but it does not say. There was some hint that she might be thinking of bargaining with Slaanesh so who knows. She could very well be dead, but it would not surprise me if she showed up at some point down the line as an Avatar of Excess or something. Teclis on the other hand there is no word on him other than his grief at failing to bind all eight of the Winds of Magic to mortals of his choosing. It does not talk of him dying so I suspect he may show up later.

Of note is that the Wind of Light chose it's own vessel somewhere in the lands of men. Teclis apparently knows who it is, and was surprised at the choice, but was not disappointed as he was in losing Fire, Beasts and Death.

[Mr Mystery]

Just picked up my order.

Surprisingly, local store had no stock sent through. None at all!

Anyways. Opening page - Ariel may not be dead.....nor doomed.

[miteyheroes]

Of note is that the Wind of Light chose it's own vessel somewhere in the lands of men. Teclis apparently knows who it is, and was surprised at the choice, but was not disappointed as he was in losing Fire, Beasts and Death.

Do we know which people are which yet?

[eldargal]

If it doesn't say Morathi is dead then she probably isn't, ditto Teclis.

[buggle]

I wonder if light went to Huss instead of Valtan

[eldargal]

Hopefully neither, Empire already has one empowered guy.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

So. Where to even begin? There's a lot of twists and turns here. Spoilers throughout. Please read this carefully. I'll answer questions, but not if I've already answered them here.

Lileath is clearly something like the Elven trickster god. She plays something like the role of the Laughing God for the Eldar here. Firstly, she's the Lady of the Lake. Secondly, she poisoned Ariel - so the latter would be reborn through Alarielle. Thirdly, her game is not to win - she doesn't believe that the Gods of Chaos can be defeated, although she allows her servants (mostly Teclis) to think so. Instead, it's to set up the new world, for the Elven cycle to begin again. To this end, Eldyra (not a vampire!) is shaped and created into her new dimension's equivalent of Ereth-Khial, Goddess of Death. Into that world, right at the end, she sends Araloth, who will play the part of Asuryan (he even has a hawk, for crying out loud!). Lileath believes that the Gods of Chaos can only be made so weak in the Warhammer World that it'll take them millennia to discover the new dimension. But the cycle always repeats.

Whether she's right - I mean, this is only Elven cosmology, and it doesn't take into account the Human gods or the Dwarfen, or indeed the Old Ones - is anyone's guess. She's a classic trickster.

At this point, I think this is the setting change we're going to have. The events of the End Times won't be the final victory for Chaos the Dark Gods assume; nor will it be a triumph for the forces of Light. Instead, what would be a sudden cataclysm is drawn into a long, grinding war between all the factions; the Warhammer World becomes an eternity of war, in which the chance of success for the forces of Order is present but slight, but the forces of Chaos and darkness are held at bay from achieving their crushing final victory. That makes sense to me as a background in which there's all the reason in the world for the Warhammer races to be at war constantly - they're closer together and everything is on the line - where previously it was sort of... border wars and skirmishes. It'll make the setting look a bit more like the "two minutes to midnight" of the 40k universe. That's my guess, anyway.

To the person who's worried about the Wood Elves: don't be. Give the book a read, it was, to my mind, handled well. The Wood Elves don't fight for Malekith; they fight for Alarielle, incarnate of Isha as Ariel had been. They fight for the Elven race, and do a good job of it. Durthu is awesome. Orion goes out with a bang. Daith the blind swordsman is actually Vaul. Araloth's journey into the Realm of Chaos is the best part of the book.

Oh, yes, better mention the gods. Several characters are, or are aspects or reflections of, the Elven gods. Everything is but an echo of the fall of the Elven gods. Imrik plays the role of the god whose betrayal performs a noble service; Morathi is Hekarti reborn (or so she says), whispering in the ear of Khaine (Tyrion) to begin his war. She's opposed by Hellebron (Atharti). And Malekith is Asuryan's chosen. Always has been. All the Phoenix Kings were false kings, protected from the fires by the magic of their mages. None of them actually went through the ritual properly. The throne was stolen: Asuryan had chosen out Malekith to continue Aenarion's line; the Phoenix Court went against his wishes in deciding that Elven rulership was suddenly a sort of democracy. As a result, they all suffered for it: Asuryan made the Phoenix Kings mad, or vain, or foolish in turn. Poor old Finubar was a good man, but he knew his throne was stolen and the guilt ate away at him. It's why he was reluctant to go into battle. It's why, when Malekith - at Teclis' assistance - finally killed him in his tower of seclusion, Finubar was happy to die.

By the end, the Elven leadership is restored to what it was - a powerful (and my god is she powerful and wonderful and awesome) Everqueen, and the anointed of Asuryan at her side. And that's very much the relationship.

So, what happens with the Vortex?

Teclis' plan is to unchain the remaining winds of magic and thrust the power into avatars of his choosing; people he can rely upon to do good with the power. Nagash already took one, which is the only thing that even makes unbinding the Vortex possible. Teclis planned to invest Malekith with the wind of Fire, in order to chain him to a bright (heh) and vigorous future, but because of the disruption to his ritual - by the battle, and eventually by a maddened Morathi - Fire breaks free, seeking an unknown host. Metals follows quickly. Heavens is interesting: it seeks a host somewhere in the Empire. Teclis isn't worried by this because he feels some kind of familiar but alien intelligence guiding its hand. What's left to him is to bind Life to Alarielle (who is now even more awesome than she already was, like really) and Shadow to Malekith, which means he'll always be trapped in a bitter path. At least he leaves cool smoke trails everywhere now.

And finally, he binds the Wind of Light to his staff. It's a throwaway, blink and you'll miss it. Whether he's saving it for himself or for another is anyone's guess.

Morathi threw herself into the vortex (she can survive it because her body is immortal; her Pegasus isn't, bye bye winghorse), maddened with grief at the death of Aenarion Reborn and (apparently) her son from Alith Anar's arrows. She starts blasting away with ever more powerful magic from within the Vortex at all the trapped elven mages; only Caledor Dragontamer is protected enough to survive and help Teclis finish the ritual. Her... well, it's not a plan, but her final vengeance was to summon Slaanesh's attention with cool magic so that he'd eat up the remaining Elves, destroy Ulthuan, and maybe - although she's not afraid of Slaanesh's grasp at this point - earn herself an apotheosis. But the ritual finishes too soon, Slaanesh gets bored, but not without whisking Caledor and Morathi off. RIP? We'll see.

On which note, Teclis, carrying Tyrion's body, waits on Ulthuan for the waves to claim him. He doesn't go with Imrik, Alarielle and the remaining elves to Athel Loren. But where does he go? He shouldn't be able to carry Tyrion: he broke the Moon Staff banishing the Daemons at the start, and has been suffering terribly from his natural infirmities ever since. Suddenly he has strength enough to lift Tyrion's corpse (he ain't heavy, he's my brother). He's possibly empowered by something: the wind of Light, is my guess. As a result, I very much doubt he's just dead because of waves. I think he's working a longer, more complicated plan, not least because he didn't allow anyone to tend to Tyrion. But there's another throwaway line earlier: there's no salvation for Tyrion this side of death. What's he up to? We'll have to wait to find out, I think.

So, those are the main things, I think. If you have questions, ask.

These are all the deaths I can remember. Once again: if you don't have a model, unlikely you'll survive!

Valkia the Bloody (?): probably not dead. "Fell" at the hand of Malekith's armies, but strong rumours suggest she's still around. Can she even die?
N'Kari: daemons can't die, but N'Kari gets the closest possible treatment from Teclis.
Malus Darkblade: possessed by Tz'arkan, then killed by Tyrion.
Tullaris Dreadbringer: dies taunting Tyrion; makes his mind snap and ushers in the return of Khaine.
Kouran Darkhand: deaded in battle, I forget how.
Korhil: sacrificed to Khaine with his own axe; later becomes one of Malekith/Asuryan's spirit army.
Tyrion: shot by Alith Anar.
Teclis (?): vanished beneath the waves as Ulthuan sinks. Probably not dead. See above.
Morathi (?): swept into Slaanesh's embrace. Probably dead. Possibly not.
Orion: killed by Tyrion. Was going to die with the winter and never return anyway, so went out with a bang.
Lokhir Fellheart (?): shot in the back, dragged away by his men. Might have made it off the island.
Daith: I don't know my Wood Elves well, but he dies heroically. Was Vaul All Along.

If there's others, I'll remember them eventually!

And the Winds of Magic, as we currently know:

Death: Nagash
Life: Alarielle
Shadow: Malekith
Light: Teclis' Staff
Heavens: Guided by some intelligence to someone in the Empire!

Worth noting that the timeline has once again moved on. The fall of Ulthuan and the unmaking of the Vortex is one full year on from the end of Nagash and Glottkin. So who could be in the Empire one year on to incarnate the Lore of Heavens is anyone's guess; it needn't necessarily be a human Imperial. I had thought Tetto'Ekko before we knew "in the Empire". Maybe it still is! Interesting that Heavens is being guided by something, also. Is Heavens important?

[eldargal]

Neat. What happens to Hellebron? She does have a model after all.:p

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Hellebron's fine! If they're not on the list, they're fine. Hellebron's specifically in the Eternity King list. Shadowblade is too, although he has a terrible, horrible, no good very bad day for a bit. He gets his own back.

Hellebron faced the Khornate invasion of her homeland and all that happened was she had the time of her life slitting throats. She eventually got bored and went to Ulthuan, where she faces off against Morathi. They sort of both lose that one.

As to the women angle, because I know this is important: again, a mixed bag, but better than Glottkin. A lot of named female warriors and heroes on both sides. Most of them die, but most of everyone dies. Some of them come back as heroic spirits (the chief Handmaiden shoots Lokhir, I remember now). Alarielle is awesome; very much responsible for fixing everyone's mess. She tells Tyrion precisely where he can go, also.

Morathi is her usual self. She rattles around causing destruction and mischief, outwitting a whole bunch of people, but also eventually herself. So it goes. I kind of hope she gets a rebirth in some form, but I don't know how much chance there is of that.

Drane Brackblood, who was meant to head up the invasion of Ulthuan before everything went to hell, gets to be a good, successful admiral for a while before eventually being done in by politics. She's not an idiot like Malus or a traitor like Lokhir, though.

The Eldyra plot thread was picked up and run with. The resolution for that was very good, I thought. She's now the Queen of her own pocket dimension, the hope of the Elves. (Something like Cegorach for the Eldar, but not).

Lileath is the one god powerful enough to Fix This ****, although what angle she's really working is a mystery to the very end. She's the only one of the Elven gods who's still around.

[eldargal]

Yay!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Updated the post above.

Oh! Caradryan speaks! All of one word. He knew his fate, and then his fate didn't transpire. Fate's like that.

[eldargal]

Thanks, feeling much happier. I don't mind having women heroes dying when they do it heroically and there are plenty of them, so that's really positive. Also glad they did Stuff with Eldyra because I was half convinced they would forget about her entirely. Now if they can jsut give some more of them models...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think one of the purposes behind the End Times Character Cull is to give sculptors and writers both the opportunity to create new characters, rather than being trapped in the recurring cycle of "well, let's do a new version of X". This has already sort of started with the likes of Araloth and the Dwarf king from their release. I hope that what follows is a bit more diverse! There's plenty of room for it!

Oh oh oh: you have to see the Ghost Phoenix Kings models they've made. Those are amazing. The illustration of them all is also wonderful.

[eldargal]

That is my big hope for End Times, especially with regards to women characters. The trouble I had with Glottkin (and to some extent Khaine, given no models) was that they weren't taking advantage of it. Fingers crossed that going forward they remedy that.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

If this is really a change to the basic Warhammer setting - and I hope and believe it is - then they've given themselves a great opportunity. I hope they take it.

[Mr Mystery]

At the moment we're seeing the end journey for existing, long established characters.

Does seem to open up the rise of new Heroes. One example already is Gutrot Spume.

As for female characters - as I've said before, inclusivity is cool!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Spume, the Maggoth Lords and Glottkin are all new, yeah. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Uhh.


Oh yeah.

I'll be in my corner, wearing my speshul hat!

[Theik]

So I guess we can all agree now that the Emperor is not truly Sigmar returned...

He is actually the incarnate of air!

Remember how he got hit by a comet of cassadora? And how he now mysteriously has the ability to shoot lightning? He is the one that was chosen by the lore of Wind.


As for you, Eldargal, I have good news. Remember how you were so upset when that elven princess Eldyra was turned into a vampire? Well, guess what, she's not actually a vampire at all!
With gods falling left and right, many decide to simply throw in their lot with the mortals, one of them being Ereth Khial, the elven goddess of the dead, who binds herself to Eldyra.

Eldyra gains some help from Lileath to realize her powers and bursts out of Sylvania, steals thousands of souls before Slaanesh can claim them and uses their power to create a new world, away from the taint of the Chaos Gods, as a backup plan for when the Old World falls.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

1. Maybe it's Karl Franz, but the timing is wrong. The destruction of the Vortex happens a full year after the events of Glottkin (which ends inwinter 2525; the unmaking of the Vortex is winter 2526). Also, my interpretation is that KF isn't invested with a Wind, but rather with Sigmar's divine power. That he has a lightning bound spell is possibly instructive, but we don't know.

He's also not a wizard; all the incarnates of Winds so far are. I think you might have to be, ut we really don't know!

The fact the guiding hand is a 'familiar but alien intelligence' suggests to me a fellow creation of the Old Ones, possibly a lizardman. Are they in the Empire now? We don't know. A lot can happen in a year!

2. Eldyra, not Aliathra. Aliathra, Tyrion's daughter with Alarielle, is dead. Eldyra is the hard as nails Elf princess Mannfred thought he's turned, now the version of Ereth-Khial in Lileath's pocket world.

[Mr Mystery]

Is it just me, or does this series just get better and better?

As with Glottkin, I'm loving the more active role of the old Gods!

[eldargal]

I want a model of Eldyra.

[Theik]

1. Maybe it's Karl Franz, but the timing is wrong. The destruction of the Vortex happens a full year after the events of Glottkin (which ends inwinter 2525; the unmaking of the Vortex is winter 2526). Also, my interpretation is that KF isn't invested with a Wind, but rather with Sigmar's divine power. That he has a lightning bound spell is possibly instructive, but we don't know.

The vortex called, it said it doesn't want to follow proper timelines. It's mentioned several times that time works weird near the vortex.

Also, look at the art of Karl Franz with the essence of Ghal Modaz. That isn't just any weapon, that's a weapon made entirely out of lightning. He is even referenced to as "the lord of lightning" for the purpose of that innate bound spell he as. The guiding hand may very well -be- Sigmar, which would certainly be a familiar but alien intelligence to Teclis. I'm not saying that it wasn't Sigmar who directed the wind of magic to Karl, but something sure happened.



As for him not being a wizard.... no, but he was never a wizard in the first place. We see existing wizards become more powerful wizards, yet here we have a guy with no magical abilities whatsoever who suddenly gets the ability to shoot lightning and to call a weapon out of pure lightning into his hands. That sounds pretty wizardy to me, just not on the scale of an actual wizard, more on an instictive level of a guy who never studied magic before.


But yeah, my bad on Eldyra, I messed up my names there. :P Stupid elves all sound similar!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You could be right! I'm not willing to call it a definite just yet. Lots of Gods can shoot lightning, though; Sigmar is essentially Thor, in this light.

[Mr Mystery]

Araloth's sojourn through Nurgle's garden is a great bit.

Trying to think who The Warrior might be.....

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah, I loved the detour into a fairytale in Nurgle's nightmare realm.

Don't hate me, but isn't the warrior... a Grey Knight? Perhaps even... A certain very famous Grey Knight, cursed to forever wander the Realm of Chaos in just such a manner...?

[miteyheroes]

Wasn't he killed by a Slaanesh guy?

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah, I loved the detour into a fairytale in Nurgle's nightmare realm.

Don't hate me, but isn't the warrior... a Grey Knight? Perhaps even... A certain very famous Grey Knight, cursed to forever wander the Realm of Chaos in just such a manner...?

You know......you might just be right......

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's certainly vague enough that one can read it that way.

Here's a conjecture: are the two universes more closely linked than we thought? Is Lileath's pocket dimension what eventually became the 40k Universe? Her scenario of the End Times being about not victory but stalling and weakening Chaos so much that it takes ages for them to discover the new universe would be an interesting reason for why the Eldar civilisation in 40k made it as far as space travel when the Elves didn't have that chance! Whether it's that one, or the one after, or the one before that (or perhaps that before the Warhammer World!) it's clear that the Elven cosmology moves in cycles, with the same stories repeated again and again. Definitely food for thought, there!

[Wildeybeast]

Should have been asleep ages ago, but had to finish it tonight. That was bloody epic, best yet. I love the fact that the stick pixies have come off best despite all their heroes being dead) and that Athel Loren has been healed and the Beastmen are getting a kicking.

As for the winds of magic, KF has clearly got Heavens. It lands in the Empire, Teclis is happy about where it goes and senses a presence guiding it (Sigmar) and KF now has a lightning spell. Not to mention being hit by a bloody great comet. But where have the others gone? Im really not sure how those are going to end up.

Best moment of the book? Durthu picking up a startled Tyrion and hurling him half a mile across the forest.

[Mr Mystery]

Durthu and Tyrion moment.

Better than the amusing Hulk/Loki interface!

[eldargal]

Nuln hasn't been destroyed yet has it? Just riots and stuff?

[Mr Mystery]

Far as I'm aware.

Countess nicked off when it all got a bit out of hand.

Looking forward to the fourth book now!

[eldargal]

See Nuln being the industrial centre with all the cannons and guns as well as being left relatively intact so far could see it bcome the new capital of what is left of the Empire, assuming itdoesn't get destroyed in book 4.><

[Mr Mystery]

Goes back to Capital you mean :p

Altdorf did quite well, given it became the Garden of Nurgle for a bit :p

GRAAHH!!!! MOAR BOOKS NAOW!

[Erik Setzer]

It's certainly vague enough that one can read it that way.

Here's a conjecture: are the two universes more closely linked than we thought? Is Lileath's pocket dimension what eventually became the 40k Universe? Her scenario of the End Times being about not victory but stalling and weakening Chaos so much that it takes ages for them to discover the new universe would be an interesting reason for why the Eldar civilisation in 40k made it as far as space travel when the Elves didn't have that chance! Whether it's that one, or the one after, or the one before that (or perhaps that before the Warhammer World!) it's clear that the Elven cosmology moves in cycles, with the same stories repeated again and again. Definitely food for thought, there!


Unless they do serious retconning with recent 40K fluff (okay, they have in cases), the Old Ones created the Eldar, Orks, and even Humans (who then became Squats and Ogryn). And that's why the Eldar have all that nice tech. It's possible they did the same on the Warhammer world, of course.

Or maybe they just retconned it.

[Mr Mystery]

Daemons of Chaos book already confirms a link.

The map of the realms of chaos includes the Eye of Terror.

[Erik Setzer]

Daemons of Chaos book already confirms a link.

The map of the realms of chaos includes the Eye of Terror.

Yeah, I think the fact that the same daemon champions (and Soulgrinders) exist in both is also indication of a link.

[Dalleron]

I think the same names and the soul grinder being in both universes is two fold. 1. Lazy writing on GW's part, and do they need another name for Skulltaker. 2. It lets them make money selling for two systems without having 2 models. 3. They're trolling us.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Eldrya certainly kept up her MO of being a badass, but I was really hoping for a new model and character for my undead. A vampire elf princess antihero would have been amazing.

Also, I was under the impression that the unbinding of the vortex was a year after Nagash's resurrection, as the battle when Tyrion commanded the dead was early in the war and before he drew the widowmaker. The timing should be just right for Franz to yoink the wind of heavens.

[Mr Mystery]

Almost time for the fourth book!

Should be up for pre-order tonight, or next week. Rumours indicate next week, but seeing as I need it in hardback because completist reasons, I'm checking in tonight!

[Erik Setzer]

Almost time for the fourth book!

Should be up for pre-order tonight, or next week. Rumours indicate next week, but seeing as I need it in hardback because completist reasons, I'm checking in tonight!

I've got the first three in hardback, I won't go with anything else now (especially as the softbacks look a bit flimsy and barely cost any less). My local GW store should have three copies like they have each of the prior books, and I know if I get there early I can get one and no one's going to fight me too hard for it (while I have a lot of WFB armies, the Skaven are one I really enjoy, but need some new toys for).

[Harbinger Rising]

Question:

Anyone who has the End Times: Khiane book; that cover art is really gorgeous. How much of the artwork in the book is entirely new, or is it mostly recycled from previous Elves books?

[Harbinger Rising]

See Nuln being the industrial centre with all the cannons and guns as well as being left relatively intact so far could see it bcome the new capital of what is left of the Empire, assuming itdoesn't get destroyed in book 4.><

Nuln and Altdorf seemed to be major hub cities to the humans more that Marienberg, in the fluff anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.

But Nuln getting razed to the ground would irritate me to no end. I mean, Heinz had just finished rebuilding the pub that Gotrek had burned down, lol.

[Mr Mystery]

Lots of new art. Lots and lots and lots and lots.

Odd bit of recycling here and there, but majority all spanglenew.

[Harbinger Rising]

^ That's amazing, thanks.

The amount of work behind the scenes, that went into these End Times books is amazing. It's a wonder how GW managed to keep it all so secret.

Like Apple Inc :D