Rending and Re-rolls on Penetration

[CoffeeGrunt]

Hey guys,

Has this come up in a game when I was using Pask in a Punisher. As you probably know, Pask gives the Punisher cannon Rending, and also has the ability to re-roll Penetration rolls. Rending gives an extra D3 to Penetration on top of the normal D6.

Now, this is a bit awkward to try and work out how to play, because unlike Melta or Armourbane with its standard 2D6 Penetration, you need a result on one dice to decide if you even get to roll the other. Hence you can't just throw both dice down, then re-roll the result if it doesn't get the needed result.

The way I'd interpreted it, was that you would roll the initial D6s, and re-roll any failures as needed, then roll the D3s, re-rolling any failures among them. The way my opponent thought it worked, was that I dealt with the D6s as above, but when re-rolling failed D3s, I had to roll them again as D6s, find any 6s, then roll the D3s on them.

The rulebook's annoyingly absent on any answers to this as far as I can tell. Does anyone have a good answer to how this should be run?

[Denzark]

I don't normally re-roll the d3s at all. Because:

1. Pask allows a re-roll to pen.

2. The roll to pen is just d6.

3. The d3 is only applicable when 6 is achieved - on the roll to pen. So you can only re-roll the 1d6.

[Lord Krungharr]

I concur with Denzark.

[ElectricPaladin]

Me, too.

[ShadowcatX]

I'm going to possibly disagree here. The roll of 1d6 is the roll to pen, no doubt, and that is what is rerolled, however, if you roll a 6 you still roll (effectively rerolling) the d3. You do not reroll the d6 but hold over the d3 roll.

Basically what the opponent said.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm going to possibly disagree here. The roll of 1d6 is the roll to pen, no doubt, and that is what is rerolled, however, if you roll a 6 you still roll (effectively rerolling) the d3. You do not reroll the d6 but hold over the d3 roll.

Basically what the opponent said.

Yes. If you re-roll the penetration die, the d3 result goes away. If you roll a 6, you get to roll a d3 again. If you roll anything else, the d3 result is irrelevant.

[John Bower]

Yes. If you re-roll the penetration die, the d3 result goes away. If you roll a 6, you get to roll a d3 again. If you roll anything else, the d3 result is irrelevant.

Pretty much how I'd play it, though nice to bring it up as I'd never encountered it not having a punisher.

[Katharon]

Yeah, you re-roll to pen not to get extra pen. First response is correct.

[Mad Cat]

1. Roll all the dice you are allowed to roll i.e. 1D6 or 2D6 or 1D6+D3 on an initial 6 etc.
2. Add The Strength of the weapon.
3. Compare to the armour value of the target.
4. If this bounces off then reroll the dice, ALL the dice so you cannot "bank" the 6 and just reroll your D3.

[Denzark]

No. The D3 is a rending roll. Pask re-rolls the armour pen. 2d6 on a vanq, 1d6 on everything else. Does not include the d3. Because that is a rending roll.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Okay, I sorta let this one go on for a little to see if debate would turn up, but it seems pretty unanimous.

So as I understand it, the procedure is thus:

1) Roll a D6 for each hit,
2) Set 6s aside,
3) Re-roll all other dice,
4) Collect all 6s together,
5) Roll equal number of D3s and check for Glances/Pens.

So basically as one would, but the D3s are not re-rolled at all?

[ShadowcatX]

I don't think that is quite correct.

1. Roll a d6 for each hit.
2. For each 6 roll 1d3. Note how many glances or pens you get.
3. Reroll all d6s that didn't result in either a glance or a pen. 6's generate d3s as normal.

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't think that is quite correct.

1. Roll a d6 for each hit.
2. For each 6 roll 1d3. Note how many glances or pens you get.
3. Reroll all d6s that didn't result in either a glance or a pen. 6's generate d3s as normal.

And additionally, if you chose to reroll any 6s, discard the result on the d3 and only roll a d3 if you get a 6.

[Houghten]

No. The D3 is a rending roll. Pask re-rolls the armour pen. 2d6 on a vanq, 1d6 on everything else. Does not include the d3. Because that is a rending roll.

You iz mukkin' about. Rending lets you add d3 to your penetration total on a roll of 6. When the re-roll comes up 6, why would Rending not trigger? It's still a roll-to-penetrate of 6.

[Filthspew]

Houghten nailed the confusion that is here.

First you roll armor pen, then reroll any fails.

Rerolls mean that the first roll never happened.

Then, you know how many 6es are there, and you add a d3 to them, specifically.

The USR says that every 6 allows "a further d3 to be rolled", further as in relation to the d6 that is an armor pen roll. So now the armor pen roll consists of a d6 and a d3, and Pask allows you to reroll the d3s as well.

If the d3 was a Rending roll and not an armor pen, as previously argued, it would not have any effect. As nowhere does the rules cover that rending rolls have any effect on armor, only armor pen rolls do :)

Maybe re-reading the paragraph on rerolls will also clarify this.

[Charistoph]

Houghten nailed the confusion that is here.

First you roll armor pen, then reroll any fails.

Rerolls mean that the first roll never happened.

Then, you know how many 6es are there, and you add a d3 to them, specifically.

This gets interesting when a Armour Penetration Roll requires an 8 or higher... 6's still fail (but are the only ones with a chance to succeed).

Does one get to reroll just the D3? Or does one have to roll the parent D6 on top?

My own understanding is the parent is rerolled, which may cause the loss of the D3.

[DarkLink]

The reroll basically resets everything. You roll your hit, roll a 6, roll the d3, fail to pen. Then you pick up the d6 and d3 to reroll. If you roll another 6 on the reroll, then you get the d3, otherwise you do not. It works exactly the same as it does normally.

[Demonus]

The reroll basically resets everything. You roll your hit, roll a 6, roll the d3, fail to pen. Then you pick up the d6 and d3 to reroll. If you roll another 6 on the reroll, then you get the d3, otherwise you do not. It works exactly the same as it does normally.

^^ Exactly

[John Bower]

Houghten nailed the confusion that is here.

First you roll armor pen, then reroll any fails.

Rerolls mean that the first roll never happened.

Then, you know how many 6es are there, and you add a d3 to them, specifically.

The USR says that every 6 allows "a further d3 to be rolled", further as in relation to the d6 that is an armor pen roll. So now the armor pen roll consists of a d6 and a d3, and Pask allows you to reroll the d3s as well.

If the d3 was a Rending roll and not an armor pen, as previously argued, it would not have any effect. As nowhere does the rules cover that rending rolls have any effect on armor, only armor pen rolls do :)

Maybe re-reading the paragraph on rerolls will also clarify this.

I think I fall in with this, it makes a lot of sense and 'feels' right if you get my drift.