A change to Space Marine Dreadnoughts

[YorkNecromancer]

General internets wisdom says Dreadnoughts aren't survivable enough to be viable.

Taking this to be true, which of the following changes would you make? The points, weapon options, everything else stays the same. What gets changed?

FA = front armour; SA = side armour; HP = hull points; AV = armour values.

[jeffersonian000]

Hull points really hurt Dreadnoughts and other light vehicles. Giving Dreads the SHW treatment and allowing them to ignore the pen chart would greatly improve their usefulness.

SJ

[Cactus]

I think that the points per dread should be lower, as well as adding multiple dreads (perhaps units of 3) per unit selection.

[Mr Mystery]

Dreads need more spangle.

They're ancient heroes of their Chapter, but don't inspire those around them, and hav middling stats.

Their weapon systems, once upon a time were relics of the chapter - are now average.

They needs a soup up

[40kGamer]

Revisiting the Lucius Pod or coming up with a delivery system to move them across the table could make Dreads more viable. Agree they need a serious buffing... Once they were special, but the game has expanded so much that now they are just tired and old.

[GrauGeist]

I say no changes. Bring everything else down in power, and get rid of the chrome.

If that doesn't work, bring the points down.

Adding more stuff simply makes the game more of a mess.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Agreed. Give 'em a slight point discount and you'd see 'em get some playing time.

[DarkLink]

Dreadnoughts have been getting progressively cheaper and cheaper and cheaper (except for GK dreadnoughts, which with the new codex inexplicably both got significantly worse and significantly more expensive simultaneously) and it hasn't made anyone play them. Give them better armor, give them better weapons, make them good in assault, and they might actually get played.

[Arkhan Land]

I voted for the 5+ inv cause its seems wacky that terminators have it but they dont, theyre even more awesome and archaic, front armour 13 would also be cool too possibly with ceramite plating rule which the storm-raven has, so it would make sense dreads would have it to take em through rough atmosphere

[Venomlust]

I voted for the 5+ inv cause its seems wacky that terminators have it but they dont, theyre even more awesome and archaic, front armour 13 would also be cool too possibly with ceramite plating rule which the storm-raven has, so it would make sense dreads would have it to take em through rough atmosphere

I agree. 5++ standard for every dreadnought variant, along with a rule like "Ancient Arsenal" which makes bullet weapons rending and everything else master crafted or twin-linked-- something like that.

I like the loyalist dreadnought options, with the ability to upgrade to venerable, blood angels/wolfy variants etc. I very much like customizability in a unit.

More than anything else, points cost is the crucial detail. As a CSM player, I'd just be happy if they removed the stupid crazed table and left everything else as-is. We have fancy dreads now via forge world and they're all just way too expensive for what they're capable of, and lack the superior drop pod of the astartes. Did I really just turn this into a poor wittle chaos rant? Whoops...

[JMichael]

I think a 5+ as an upgrade would be cool.
But as a non-SM player (Eldar/Sisters) I would like to see a front AV13. I think that would help a lot.

[Psychosplodge]

They should be AV14 I'm sure I've seen fluff that compares their armour to a land raiders before. They're supposed to be really heavily armoured.

[Reldane]

Dreadnoughts have been getting progressively cheaper and cheaper and cheaper (except for GK dreadnoughts, which with the new codex inexplicably both got significantly worse and significantly more expensive simultaneously) and it hasn't made anyone play them. Give them better armor, give them better weapons, make them good in assault, and they might actually get played.

Dreadnaughts are more durable than they have been for years (only ap2 or better weapons can get destroyed, nerfs to Monstrous creatures vehicle wrecking abilities), and as DarkLink points out have come down in price, especially the venerable and Ironclad versions, but still see little play. Where they do see play it is often as a long range gun platform and it is often considered a viable stratagem to lock it down with a large squad of cheep bodies.

in my opinion Dreadnaughts need more weapon options, not more more durability. Give them some dreadnaught only weapons, make the missile launcher into a typhoon missile launcher, drop the cost on the other gun upgrades. If a dreadnaught is geared for close combat, then it needs some added survivability and enough attacks that locking it down with a unit of 20 throw away troops isn't as much of an option. Give the same dreadnaught to CSM, re-tune the hellbrute (to be good) to be a viable dreadnaught variant in a similar way to Ironclad. Honestly I don't know the new Space wolf flavored Dreadnaught well enough to do anything but laugh at the naming convention.

[Angelus Mortifer]

I think an Invul of some description would add a bit of longevity, and there are probably enough delivery systems to get them up-field now if necessary. The main issue I have is they're huge slabs of adamantium with massive power fists etc, and the fluff often portrays them being able to wade through enemies in close assault. Yet the rules have them able to be tarpitted by all and sundry.

I hoped that with 7th they would give them like a Stomp attack vs all enemies in B2B, in addition to their base attacks, but maybe at I1... but Knights got the Stomp in the end. If they could give them some sort of equivalent they may see more table time.

[Mr Mystery]

Thinking back to 2nd Edition (long time!)

Twin-lascannons could alter where they hit a vehicle on the damage location roll - this meant they could do more damage overall, as hitting a sponson had minimal chance of destroying the vehicle, but hitting the hull meant serious troub for the tank.

Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolter could all ignore the first Jam on each turns sustained fire dice

Multimelta could also fire as a Heavy Flamer

Powerfist did extra damage against vehicles.

Nothing massively powerful overall, but put them above standard weapon equivalents :)

[Mr Mystery]

More than anything else, points cost is the crucial detail. As a CSM player, I'd just be happy if they removed the stupid crazed table and left everything else as-is. We have fancy dreads now via forge world and they're all just way too expensive for what they're capable of, and lack the superior drop pod of the astartes. Did I really just turn this into a poor wittle chaos rant? Whoops...

I think this answers your question :)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/COVER-IA13.jpg

[Dave Mcturk]

I voted for the 5+ inv cause its seems wacky that terminators have it but they dont, theyre even more awesome and archaic, front armour 13 would also be cool too possibly with ceramite plating rule which the storm-raven has, so it would make sense dreads would have it to take em through rough atmosphere

from 6th and now through 7th - lots of things could do with an IV save - wraithlords and wraithguard are other examples

the overall problem is GW dont care; and house rules only work for the small player groups at clubs.

my opinion for 7th is that all front armour slots should go up ONE AP on almost all non- skimmer vehicles - A10/A11 is ultra vulnerable and A12 isnt much better. even A10 skimmers should arguably be A11 on the front.

Orc dredds are pretty poor [sorry shocking] - but at least they can access a 5+ save and repair rolls.

[Bob821]

Why not make them MC's? Riptides are and so are wraith knights. Both really walkers IMO. T8 A5 W5 2+ 5+, fleet and 160pts plus weapons and war gear of which there needs to be a big selection of very nasty stuff. Fluff wise they are total monsters, but I've lost combats to riptides with my Death Company Dreads! I dont feel they need a little tweek they need a huge shake up. I maybe off with points the only way to check would be to play test and see how they go. They are Space Marine icons piloted by the sort of marines that other marines look up. They should reflect this.

[This Dave]

U
Why not make them MC's? Riptides are and so are wraith knights. Both really walkers IMO. T8 A5 W5 2+ 5+, fleet and 160pts plus weapons and war gear of which there needs to be a big selection of very nasty stuff. Fluff wise they are total monsters, but I've lost combats to riptides with my Death Company Dreads! I dont feel they need a little tweek they need a huge shake up. I maybe off with points the only way to check would be to play test and see how they go. They are Space Marine icons piloted by the sort of marines that other marines look up. They should reflect this.

Not a bad idea, the only problem then is that a Dreadnought could be affected by Poisoned weapons. I guess it could be assumed the poison got through to the pilot.

Up-armoring and adding an invulnerable save would help as the the things are supposed to be near indestructible. And slightly better stats would help too. They're supposed to be Space Marine heroes, or for Ork dreads you'd think only a Nob would have the teef to buy one.

[Greatwolf]

I agree. 5++ standard for every dreadnought variant, along with a rule like "Ancient Arsenal" which makes bullet weapons rending and everything else master crafted or twin-linked-- something like that.

I like the loyalist dreadnought options, with the ability to upgrade to venerable, blood angels/wolfy variants etc. I very much like customizability in a unit.

More than anything else, points cost is the crucial detail. As a CSM player, I'd just be happy if they removed the stupid crazed table and left everything else as-is. We have fancy dreads now via forge world and they're all just way too expensive for what they're capable of, and lack the superior drop pod of the astartes. Did I really just turn this into a poor wittle chaos rant? Whoops...

Back armor 11 and explode results takes d3 hull points similar to imperial knights.

[Greatwolf]

Back armor 11. Explosion results d3 hull points similar to imperial knights.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

When I first saw "HP3" as a way to improve Dreads, my first reaction was... "...What, they don't have 3 Hull Points?!" That'd be a good place to start. Make 'em AV13 on the front so they don't get Krak Grenaded into dust and actually give them the melee options to take 2 Dread CCWs. Basically make them Furiosos, or at least give them that option.

Beyond that, if survivability is such an issue, why not just make the Techmarine more viable? Just by applying a bit of real-world logic, you'd think that Vehicles would have an advantage over MCs in that Vehicles can be repaired and rebuilt, while it often takes a long time for a MC to heal or recover from serious injuries (Old One Eye notwithstanding).

As for making Dreads into MCs, I don't see why not. HP are practically wounds, seeing as how it's nearly impossible to actually kill something with a penetrating hit. You can just give them USRs like Inorganic (vulnerable to Armorbane and Melta, immune to Fleshbane and Poison), Inexhaustible Engine (WS0, but can always run maximum distance and becomes WS1 when it does so) and Relentless.

[spagunk]

As a BA player, I can say that Front AV 13 is really nice.

[Anggul]

5+ invulnerable save

Plasma Cannon: +1 shot

Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: +1S, +1 shot

Multi-Melta: Twin-linked

Assault cannon: free

Twin-Linked lascannon: -15pts

Power Fist: 'Sweep' attack option. May substitute attacks stat with
number of enemy models in base contact.



Survivability is probably the least of their problems. For a big and fairly expensive model they cause barely any damage at all. There's simply no point in their guns when you can have a Devastator squad with four of them for not much more or indeed any other shooty unit. Their weapons are clearly bigger, make them better and worth taking them for. Also make it so they can fight their way out of a wet paper bag when they have a power fist.

[Moises Martinez]

They shoukd either make them similiar to bray'arth where he can forgoe 1 attack to make an auto hit to each model in base to base at like str6 ap- or just make them cheaper and possibly squad them up cause even at 100pts they are still useless. They are so many cheap units that just woop them...

[lupo1982]

None of above
Make them monstrous creature res 7with 4wounds
If a Riptide is a Mc why dreddy shouldn't?

[silashand]

Agreed. Give 'em a slight point discount and you'd see 'em get some playing time.

Nope. Subpar units rarely show up in games I have noted regardless their point cost. If they aren't going to be able to occasionally earn their points back before dying it won't matter if you lower their cost. That's why you almost never see combat dreads anymore. I know I haven't seen one in literally years. I tried playing a couple a while back and they just died before getting anywhere near combat which is what I expected. They need an upgrade of some sorts to make them more survivable. Until they get that they will remain on the shelf no matter how cool the models might be. Personally I think they should simply change them all to work like MCs. It never made any sense that an Eldar Wraithlord had better rules than a dreadnought and they both operate pretty much the same. It's not like you couldn't immobilize a WL by blowing a leg off or destroy a weapon by shooting his gun. But that's why people occasionally play them and not dreads. Because they can take a hit and still live long enough to do something useful. Dreads... not so much.

[Balor]

Well a 5++ is not bad but -20 points would go a long way.

[Moises Martinez]

Making them MC's would partially fix the problem. When compared to other units for the same cost they are not "killy" enough to make me want to play them. They get bogged down so easily. They just do not have enough attacks or shots to make them a viable option.

[sfshilo]

Why is the pinnacle of space marine tech....
A. Have three hp.
B. Have no invuln.
C. Have av12.
D. Have worse armor then their flyers?
E. Is a walker with two shooting weapons?

You want a good dread? 5++ for normal 4++ for venerable, immune to melta, av 13/13/10, 3 hp, ws/bs5 with venerable at 6.

These are supposed to be marines that were so valuable they weren't allowed to die....

[silashand]

These are supposed to be marines that were so valuable they weren't allowed to die....

This...

[Houghten]

When I first saw "HP3" as a way to improve Dreads, my first reaction was... "...What, they don't have 3 Hull Points?!"

Actually, they do.

[YorkNecromancer]

When I first saw "HP3" as a way to improve Dreads, my first reaction was... "...What, they don't have 3 Hull Points?!"

Oops! My bad.


Not a bad idea, the only problem then is that a Dreadnought could be affected by Poisoned weapons. I guess it could be assumed the poison got through to the pilot.

I thought Poisoned basically meant 'adapted to kill whatever we're fighting', so it's actual poison for Tyranids, but some super-futuristic version of Hydrofluoric acid against Necrons/Marines, so it just eats straight through the armour.


Give them better armor, give them better weapons, make them good in assault, and they might actually get played.

Kheres Assault Cannon stats for the Assault Cannon option, perhaps? Multiple shots from the Missile Launcher (or perhaps Ignores Cover, like Broadsides?) Plasma Cannons that don't Get Hot? Make the twin-linked Lascannon strength 10? Or perhaps give it bonuses to the vehicle damage table above and beyond what it already does?

As for assault, maybe give Dreadnought Power Fists some kind of mini-'stomp' attack, like a Knight; maybe something like they get a single small blast they can place in contact with their base; everything underneath takes a normal strength, but ap2 hit?

[Mr Mystery]

Just make the missile launcher a Cyclone. Perhaps special missile types?

[YorkNecromancer]

Perhaps special missile types?

I suppose the thing is working out what each weapon is supposed to do, and making the Dreadnought version better at that than the 'standard' version.

So:

Assault Cannon - dedicated light-medium infantry killer. Has the side effect of being useful against light vehicles/aircraft.
Missile Launcher - reasonable at killing everything without actually being as good as a dedicated weapon.
Lascannon - dedicated antitank.
Plasma Cannon - dedicated heavy infantry killer.
Power Fist - HULK SMASH!

So make the Assault Cannon better at toasting infantry, the Missile Launcher slightly better at killing everything (but still not as good as the other stuff), let the Lascannon ravage tanks of AV14 with ease, make the Plasma Cannon more reliable, and let the Power Fist be something to genuinely fear in assault (give it two modes: one for dealing with tarpits, one for smashing vehicles/characters).

That and let all Mortis dreadnoughts have the 'Interceptor+Skyfire as long as you don't move' rule.

[commissarmike]

I've been saying for years what a few have in this thread: Make them Monstrous Creatures.

I think that is literally the best way to make them useful and put them on par with similar units.

[Venomlust]

I also want to see a dreadnought chapter master variant.

[DarkLink]

I suppose the thing is working out what each weapon is supposed to do, and making the Dreadnought version better at that than the 'standard' version.

So:

Assault Cannon - dedicated light-medium infantry killer. Has the side effect of being useful against light vehicles/aircraft.
Missile Launcher - reasonable at killing everything without actually being as good as a dedicated weapon.
Lascannon - dedicated antitank.
Plasma Cannon - dedicated heavy infantry killer.
Power Fist - HULK SMASH!

So make the Assault Cannon better at toasting infantry, the Missile Launcher slightly better at killing everything (but still not as good as the other stuff), let the Lascannon ravage tanks of AV14 with ease, make the Plasma Cannon more reliable, and let the Power Fist be something to genuinely fear in assault (give it two modes: one for dealing with tarpits, one for smashing vehicles/characters).

That and let all Mortis dreadnoughts have the 'Interceptor+Skyfire as long as you don't move' rule.

The assault cannon is still pretty good. I definitely agree the missile launcher should be upgraded to a cyclone missile launcher. Lascannons and plasma cannons should probably get a bit of a buff, they're a little meh for the price point. And Dreadnoughts should definitely get a few more attacks and probably WS5 in combat. That extra little bit of ranged firepower, assault punch, a bit heavier armor, and remaining at a reasonable price point, and you would see a lot more on the table.

[Dave Mcturk]

When I first saw "HP3" as a way to improve Dreads, my first reaction was... "...What, they don't have 3 Hull Points?!" That'd be a good place to start. Make 'em AV13 on the front so they don't get Krak Grenaded into dust and actually give them the melee options to take 2 Dread CCWs. Basically make them Furiosos, or at least give them that option.

Beyond that, if survivability is such an issue, why not just make the Techmarine more viable? Just by applying a bit of real-world logic, you'd think that Vehicles would have an advantage over MCs in that Vehicles can be repaired and rebuilt, while it often takes a long time for a MC to heal or recover from serious injuries (Old One Eye notwithstanding).

As for making Dreads into MCs, I don't see why not. HP are practically wounds, seeing as how it's nearly impossible to actually kill something with a penetrating hit. You can just give them USRs like Inorganic (vulnerable to Armorbane and Melta, immune to Fleshbane and Poison), Inexhaustible Engine (WS0, but can always run maximum distance and becomes WS1 when it does so) and Relentless.

the 'monstrous creature / vehicle' meld is a great idea - but applies across the board to all 'hybrids' such as riptides and wraithknights - since 7th is an improvement on 6th dont think the mechanism is going to be implemented this time around.

lots of ppl have suggested this - the problem becomes 'D' weapons - that will kill monstrous creatures - maybe they will need to be changed to 'multiple effects' rather than instant death. also monstrous creatures - although generally easier to hide and kill than vehicles - do not suffer from 'damage' effects - the whole thing is a bit of a mess to be fair.

another great opportunity for 'house rules' :)

[Zaonite]

It's true Dreadnoughts aren't what they used to be. But over the editions their role has changed.
I see "vanilla" Dreadnoughts now as fire magnets. A good distraction for your opponent to deal with while your army advances.

Dropping a dreadnought in the rear armour of your opponent's tanks on turn 1 and hitting it with a Multimelta kind of gets their attention.

YorkNecromancers weapon buffs are quite nice too. The combat element needs addressing though.
Being able to perform a sweep attack in combat would be very nice.

Dreadnoughts are supposed to be super advanced too. Maybe they could have a rule allowing it to self repair (rerouting power systems maybe) if it is wrecked.
Or even just alter the damage chart so a 7+ is "remove an additional hull point". This would lead to most vehicles not being able to be "one-shotted".

[Power Klawz]

I kind of feel the opposite about the whole monstrous creature thing. When the riptide was announced as a monstrous creature it never sat right with me. Even the Wraith Knight makes little sense to me, its got a pilot and its a machine, its not a creature of any sort no matter how many spirit stones you cram into it. I would have much rather had all the "monstrous machines" left as walkers with individual special rules to characterize them appropriately.

All that being said the only thing that needs to happen for dreads is more survivability. 5++ would probably do it, with the option to purchase better invulns. Venerables should get another hull point for a total of 4.

CSM dreads need a 5++ baseline and the options to take "marklike things." Nurgle should give them shrouded, Tzeentch should give 4++, khorne should give rampage and Slaanesh should give IWND to make up for vehicles not getting fnp.

also, non khorne marked csm dreads should have the option of taking psycher levels because that would be awesome.

I think ork dreads are fine as is, possibly with the exception of giving them the standalone option to take a KFF without needing a Morkanaut or big mek chaperon. Possible points reduction might be in order too.

also making the unit size 1-3 for all of the aforementioned 'naughts would help immensely as well. It's impossible to run my (admittedly hilariously useless) dread mob composed of 2 deff dreads, 6 killa kanz and a morkanaut within a single FOC, which makes me quite sad.

[daboarder]

I like those ideas claw.

I'm also of the opinion that dreads need to get their "relic" status back. Instead of just plasma cannons and heavy bolters they should have up gunned variants and rare tech, give them conversion beamers, hades autocannons, ectoplasm, bale flamers, melta cannon things etc.....they are hearoes of the chapter and should be as such again. maybe giving them access to vehicles specific "relics" would be the way to go.

I think FW dropped the ball a bit with the legacies, a proper set of walker legacies would have been really cool

[ShadowcatX]

Wraithknights do not "have a pilot", wraithknights are psychic and spirit infused flesh and wraithbone. They grow and heal. They have a person inside, yes, but that person, and their twin, are the wraithknight, they are not pilots.

Riptides on the other hand are hunks of metal with a pilot inside.

[Power Klawz]

Wraithknights do not "have a pilot", wraithknights are psychic and spirit infused flesh and wraithbone. They grow and heal. They have a person inside, yes, but that person, and their twin, are the wraithknight, they are not pilots.

Riptides on the other hand are hunks of metal with a pilot inside.

Bah its a space elf pilot with his dead brother saved to his ipod.

[DarkLink]

Honestly, the vehicle rules are so clunky I don't see why they don't just make all vehicles MC's.

[daboarder]

because having differences between MC and vehicles is good for game balance, it means that weapons that are good against MC's don't have to necessarily be good against tanks....I mean its not implemented well, but the distinction itself is a good philosophy that builds on the old cavalry, infantry, archer mechanics of most strategy games

[ShadowcatX]

Bah its a space elf pilot with his dead brother saved to his ipod.

And here we have Apple's next invention.

But my point was there is no seperating the elf from the wraith knight, they are one and the same. Ditto the spirit. That's why wraithes as monstrous creatures make sense.

[SnakeChisler]

I've been playing 2 quite a bit since 7th came in

Admittedly there spun off into a Iron Hands Clan Rauken CAD but you know if your going to do mech you may as well do it properly

With a TL Las and Heavy Flamer to dissuade back filed incursions there a decent firing platform add boosted cover save from a Forgemaster & It will not Die on a 4+ and with 3 HP they need taking out in 1 round of shooting otherwise they just get repaired back up to full health

[Dave Mcturk]

like that over 80% of responders are happy to 'tinker' with rules.

tweaking hull points / armour values / saves is certainly easier than re-writing the whole vehicle / mc mechanic though - and easier to 'change' back to when not using house rules in competitions.

[Castellan Creed]

I think an additional hull point would work best to represent the hardy nature of a dread. Upping the armour to 13 is not a bad idea but then what advantage does an ironclad dread have then? Move through cover and ironclad assault launchers are handy to have, there's no doubt about that, but there's nothing on the profile to mark them out as a dedicated assault dread then.

Its already AV13 on the front and sides so it can shrug of most of the mid-strength shots (S6-7) and krak grenades and even the majority of powerfist/thunder hammer attacks, so maybe the regular dread goes to AV13 but stays at 3HP to represent a more robust profile and the ironclad goes up to 4HP to represent the additional heavy armour for a siege dread. Or go for the AV13 and 3 HP for the regular dreads and AV14 front, AV13 sides and 3HP for the ironclad?

[Venomlust]

like that over 80% of responders are happy to 'tinker' with rules.

tweaking hull points / armour values / saves is certainly easier than re-writing the whole vehicle / mc mechanic though - and easier to 'change' back to when not using house rules in competitions.


If only we could tweak the entire rulebook and get rid of all the nonsense that confuses us or pisses us off. One day we will unite!

[Renegade]

Other than more attacks, or sweep attacks (perhaps have it induce fear) I don't think Dreads need much alteration.

I do think that they could have more weapon sets and should have a boost to stats as far as WS, BS, A and I to bring them on par with some of the MCs and much more than veterans, they are what veterans et al look up to.

Normal Dread
BS5 WS5 A5 I5 the rest as is, with perhaps a purchasable Inv save and extra front armour.