Playing with detachments

[Melissia]

Playing around with Empire lists, namely detachments. I like making army lists, and WFB is a new game so it's fresh to me even if it likely isn't to you guys. This one is 750 points.

Heroes: 100 Pts
Captain w/Hammer of Judgement, Armor of Meteoric Iron

Core: 650 Pts
19 Halberdiers w/Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer
-- Sergeant w/Shield
-- 10 Archers Detachment
-- 5 Halberdiers Detachment

19 Halberdiers w/Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer
-- Sergeant w/Shield
-- 10 Archers Detachment
-- 5 Halberdiers Detachment

14 Handgunners w/Musician
-- Marksman w/Hochland Long Rifle



________[Archer Det]________[Archer Det]
[Halb Det] [Halberds] [Handguns] [Halberds] [Halb Det]

Likely to switch out the Hammer for another item as I was informed it isn't as good as it sounds.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Random Guy]

Okay well then. I can't say I've played empire recently but I'll try to be helpful. From your list you've got the right sort of idea but there are some gaping flaws in your list.

As you said the hammer on your captain isn't all it's cracked up to be. I think you'd probably be better off with a great weapon. Striking last in fantasy isn't so much of a big deal when you're I5 because if you charge you go first anyway and there are units which go up to I6 basic. It'll also save you 21 points.
The pistol is also worth considering on him as well, firstly it gives you a shooting attack which although being a gimmic mainly might manage to knock a rank bonus off when your being charged with a stand and shoot reaction. It also gives him acess to an additional hand weapon so you'll be able to choose between 4 S4 attacks or 3 S6.

The parent units look okay to me, nice and big. I would be very tempted to swap them to being swordsmen because they are more surviable but that's your call. The detachments are where I'm going to have to be very critical. 5 Halberdiers are just going to turn into free combat res. If I kill 1 then you are no longer getting the +1 flank bonus and with a normal unit getting an extra 3 attacks to the side (before you strike, so hopefully this will be less) the odds of losing one is pretty good. Combat detachments really should be at least 10 big for this reason. This way the odds of you losing that flank bonus is extremely small.

I don't understand your logic on the archers placing them in front of your lines will just generate a speed bump, and I'm not sure how they help you as detachments.

I'm also not sure about the handgunners. 15 seems a few to many. You can only fire in 2 ranks when you're on a hill. Taking an extra 5 just in case there is a hill on the table just seems like a waste. You'd be better off with 2 units of 10 (dropping a few archers to make the points).
I also don't believe in the hockland long rifle. I find that it will never hit enough for it to be effective. If you're shooting a unit over half then it only hits on 5s, so that means in a game you'll get 2-3 hits. I just don't think that is worth the extra price tag of 20 points. What I would have instead is the brace of pistols (or just a normal handgun).

Hope that was helpful

Random Guy

[Melissia]

The Halberdiers w/Shields purchased have the same armor save as swordsmen despite also costing the same. In fact, there's no reason to ever purchase swordsmen going by their statlines and rules from what I can tell, Halberdiers are cheaper and more versatile (with full command and shields, halberdiers are five points cheaper than swordsmen with full command). Both squads have all the same equipment but halberdiers have halberds as well as the handweapon and shield and light armor.

The entire purpose of hte archers is to shoot a few time and to use the skirmisher rules to screen the enemy. Oh, and to absorb the enemy's initial charge, so that the Halberdiers get to charge during their next move phase. Remember, you don't take panic tests if detachments are destroyed or flee, so the archers are complete throw-away units.

The handgunners are there because handgunners are cool. I could add one model and make it sixteen, or two ranks of eight (at least I think that would work).

[Melissia]

Also, can someone move this to the army list section?


*sigh* I screwed up in placeming it in the wrong forum.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Melissia]

No, that's just from having the shield plus hand weapon combination IIRC, it's not unique to swordsmen. I could be wrong, though.

[Lord Azaghul]

If halberts are two handed weapons then they would not get the parry bonus, and they would NOT be using the shield in CC, so you'd be stuck with light armour only.
Sorry but Swordsmen are the superior choice because they are more durable. The S bonus is great for the detachments, but you want your main block to live, hence the shield combo.

Randomguy is pretty spot on. Bumping up the halberts to 25 would also lend a great deal of duriblity to the unit.

Hochlands: I liked 'em. But they work best when you have 2 or 3 of them, but I do think they are rather pricey for what you get.

[Melissia]

If halberts are two handed weapons then they would not get the parry bonus, and they would NOT be using the shield in CC
They'd get the parry bonus as long as they are not using the halberds, and from my knowledge you don't HAVE to use a two-handed weapon if you have it, but I may be mixing rules here. Mind pointing me to the page in the WFB BRB that says you do?

[Lord Azaghul]

You are correct. You don't have to use the halbert, provided the unit comes with a generic hand weapon. But remember once you choice either hw or halbert you're stuck with that choice until the unit is no longer in combat.

If I recall swordsmen to have a higher WS as well, which generally will take the unit from being hit on 3+ to a 4+

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[elrodogg]

5 man archer detachments are one of the strongest choices in the empire book. They redirect chargers better for the cost than anything else in the army.

9 strong free company are another popular choice. Array then 3x3 and they will throw out 6 attacks, they cannot be charged if they are sitting between two infantry units and break ranks. You also need to lose 3 to take a panic check, which means that odd fast cav shots and the like will probably not panic them.

[Melissia]

Ah, you're right on the WS part. Hrm. But the option to have halberds instead of sword and shield is rather valuable. And Halberdiers with sword, shield, and halberd are the same price as swordsmen with just sword and shield. Hrm...


And can a mod seriously please move this? It needs to be in the army list forum or at least the tactics one.

[elrodogg]

For the main block, the weapon skill is worth more than the pip of strength. The main block is there to survive and throw out rank/banner.

For the "combat" detachment, I'll argue that the volume of attacks is better than the number in almost every situation. 9 strong free company is the way to go because they get 6 attacks at ws3/s3 and the size of unit 3x3 so it can fit in between two units and not be charged (the main reason detachments often aren't effective is the opposing side will just charge the deatchment not the main block).

[The Plastic Surgeon]

Yes Swordsmen are WS4 as well.

I really wish that they would fix the rules to make Halberdiers superior to Swordsmen as line troopers so as to go with the fluff. WS4 maybe a bit much to ask for but how about being able to fight in two ranks like spearmen since they ARE polearms? What do we then do with Spearmen? Delete them and bring back Pikemen!

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[The Plastic Surgeon]

Well Pikemen makes more sense than Spearmen considering the 'time period' in which the Empire is set. Halberds combined the advantages of the spear with that of a bladed weapon, pikemen are well, pikemen and can reach VERY far to kill cavalry which leaves Spearmen out in the cold in terms of Empire doctrine as it is obsolete. Staple troops should be Halberdiers and Swordsmen with Pikemen acting as specialist units.

Anyone have ideas on making Swordsmen skirmishers conceptually? Halberds require tight formations and almost legion like 'charges' to engage the enemy effectively or get torn to shreds by 'skirmishing' swordsmen. Empire swordsmen are not legionaries in the way they are used, they charge Braveheart style (skirmish?)

I hope I make some sense!