help with berzerkers rules

[krispy]

Hi!
so i have been playing some kill team with a little khorne berzerker squad trying to learn the rules for them and im a bit unsure about the rules for when the berzerkers are charged....

so zerkers have :
furious charge (+1 Strength on Charge)

Mark of Khorne which gives
* Rage (+2 attacks on Charge)
* Counter Attack (+1 attack when charged)

So my question is this:
Do Berzerkers gain only one more attack when they are charged?
or
Do all the rules stack up so that they "counter attack"(or 'charge' back at the enemy) and gain 2 attacks AND +1 strength?

I'm hoping its the second one but i figure its too good to be true.... enlighten me please guys!
/Krispy

[Wolfshade]

They have rage don't they (+2A on the charge)

No they don't stack, as the other bonuses are for charging, not being charged, so if you pass the Ld test(?) for the Counter Attack they just get +1

[Dave Mcturk]

would make sense if all troops with higher initiative got the option to counter attack - and got their charge benefits if any with it !
[looking at quins and banshees in particular - but instead dire avengers get it !] [ might mitigate against the HUGE advantage higher T units now get in 7th] [bearing in mind that the majority of low I units such as Tau and Necron, arent really looking to charge higher I units anyway] - just a thought. [relentess / v.bulky units could be excluded ?]

[Katharon]

Counter-Attack is not a bonus +1 attack on it's own. It is a USR that allows the unit to act as if it had made the charge against the enemy unit presently charging it. As such, if a Berzerker unit was charged by an enemy unit and they pass their leadership test to see if they Counter-Attack, then they gain all the benefits of Rage & Furious charge; but only for the first turn.

The real question that I have in mind and one which I cannot presently answer is whether or not a unit can use Counter-Attack each turn. I believe it can only be used once per close-combat.

[Dave Mcturk]

the usr allows 'counter-attack' [ie +1 attack as if charging] but doesnt specifically allow any other 'as if charging benefits' [such as for example the benefit from banshee masks]. my design point was really, that surely higher initiative units [normally small units and normally also 'elite' or specialist units ] should all have 'counter-attack' as an ability or 'upgrade option' [necron wraith, eldar banshees, even orc kommandoes - ] - at present - by my understanding - counter attack is basically a +1 attack in the turn a unit is charged - but without any other bonuses [such as banshee masks, furious charge, hate , rage etc.]

[hyudun]

When you are utilizing the Counter-Attack USR you are NOT considered to be charging. The wording specifically states you get +1 attack and has no "counts as charging" clause.

"every model with the Counter-attack special rule in the unit gets + 1 Attack until the end of the phase."

No clue where Katharon is reading it as having you count as charging.

[Katharon]

When you are utilizing the Counter-Attack USR you are NOT considered to be charging. The wording specifically states you get +1 attack and has no "counts as charging" clause.

"every model with the Counter-attack special rule in the unit gets + 1 Attack until the end of the phase."

No clue where Katharon is reading it as having you count as charging.

In my defense it was 2:00 AM and I always have 5th on the brain.

[Prindlehaven]

Counter-Attack is not a bonus +1 attack on it's own. It is a USR that allows the unit to act as if it had made the charge against the enemy unit presently charging it. As such, if a Berzerker unit was charged by an enemy unit and they pass their leadership test to see if they Counter-Attack, then they gain all the benefits of Rage & Furious charge; but only for the first turn.

The real question that I have in mind and one which I cannot presently answer is whether or not a unit can use Counter-Attack each turn. I believe it can only be used once per close-combat.

This is incorrect. Counterattack says nothing about being counted "as charging". It provides +1 attack the turn the unit is charge, and DOES NOT require a leadership test.

Rage and furious charge never apply when you are being charged.

[mikeramos]

On side note what happens if a unit with counter attack is locked In combat and another unit declares a charge do they get the +1 still?

[Wolfshade]

No, they are locked in combat so cannot charge

[hyudun]

On side note what happens if a unit with counter attack is locked In combat and another unit declares a charge do they get the +1 still?

This specific scenario is addressed verbatim in the Counter-Attack entry in the BRB.

[krispy]

Thanks for all the answers - i figured it would be this way but i did hope that the +1 attack from counter attack was the same as a charge, so it was interesting to see that others kind of understood my point
thanks for the feedback