how many of you pay more for the old metal versions of characters to avoid finecast?

[eosgreen]

I recently had a nightmare of 4 bad resin kits where the customer support team was literally opening them before sending them and scrounging parts out to me. took 4 weeks and they couldnt find a complete model without a serious molding error. This has basically sent me on the "anti - finecast" crusade where im only seeking out older metal models. The problem is it cost me at least 50 to even 100 percent more for the metal versions.

at least for characters, is anyone else but me looking for the old metal stuff?

[jeffersonian000]

If I can scratch build it in plastic an some green stuff, I'd rather do that. If not, I'd convert a similar metal model. To date, I have no fine cast in my collection.

SJ

[Gothmog]

Don't be afraid to buy painted metal minis. Typically something painted is cheaper than the unpainted, and metal is SUPER EASY to strip. Just a tip to hopefully save you a few bucks.

[Aaron LeClair]

I recently had a nightmare of 4 bad resin kits where the customer support team was literally opening them before sending them and scrounging parts out to me. took 4 weeks and they couldnt find a complete model without a serious molding error. This has basically sent me on the "anti - finecast" crusade where im only seeking out older metal models. The problem is it cost me at least 50 to even 100 percent more for the metal versions.

at least for characters, is anyone else but me looking for the old metal stuff?

What model/s did you have issues with? and like Gothmog said grab the painted ones cheaps and just strip. I got a metal Brother Corbulo for $8 off Ebay a few months back, he was covers in this ungodly red spray and you couldn't make out what the model if not for his classoc pose of holding his cup up high. Soaked him in fluid over night, took a tooth brush to him and good as new! (of course tho he now sits on my to be painted shelf still lolz)

[DWest]

I prefer to custom-convert if possible, but failing that, I'll take a bad Finecast sculpt (within reason; huge missing chunks or massive deformities are right out) over a metal one, but I admit it's mainly a superstition on my part, on account of 2 metal models:
-Problem Child #1 was an Obliterator, who got spilled off my gaming table at home onto my foot. Being at home I was only wearing socks, not shoes, and I would not be surprised to find out the big lump gave me a hairline fracture for my trouble.
-Problem Child #2 was Lemartes. In all his jump-packing glory, the L-Man fell over at the slightest provocation (even with a washer and a load of lead attached to his base) and worse, being an assault-oriented model, he kept tearing arms off his fellow Death Company or whomever they were fighting.

[GrauGeist]

I own not a single FailCrap "resin" model.

I do own at least 500 metal models.

I did hunt a metal Crusader rather than take a risk on FailCrap.

[JMichael]

I prefer metal to plastic because it is far faster to file, clean, and assemble. Quicker to get painted and on the table.
And I don't mind that my Sisters army only has a few poses, it looks great on the table!
From a modeler stand piont, I do also enjoy posing and chopping plastic models, but I recently bought a SpiritSeer Finecast model and its staff warped while laying flat on my table! Junk.

[Reldane]

I recently painted a old metal Glorfindel; it reminded me how much I hated metal models. firstly I can clearly see how badly put together the model is (it was one of the first models I had) and it has a noticeable gap between the two halfs of the horse. I had a similar problem with some hellhound metal tanks being warped so badly that they had no correlation. secondly the model is heavy which makes it difficult to paint without touching the painted metal surfaces which leads to the third reason I dislike metal models, it is simply too easy to brush off paint from the edges especially with the build up of lots of thin layers.

now with regard to finecast (and other resin) models, personally I haven't had any with noticeable miscasts so I can't comment on that, I know other people have. however I will stand by the fact that the model is re-moldable with a little hot water, this leads to very good joints and allows for reposing to a certain extent. in addition it is much easier to cut whilst converting the model, I don't know how many saws I have blunted cutting though a handful of metal models.

With regard to JMichael's comment about finding metal easier to prepare, I would say in my experience that Finecast and plastic are much faster for myself, usually only needing me to reach for a craft knife.

[Mad Cat]

I don't own any fine cast models.

I'm really grateful my model of the changeling is metal as that staff would never survive if it was fine cast.

I also went to Ebay to buy metal versions of Draigo, Coteaz and Crowe rather than buy fine cast which was much more expensive.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I personally can't stand metal minis. Heavy, especially en masse, too easy to accidentally rub the paint off, annoying to glue, and even more annoying to try and convert. I only own three metal minis between my 6.5K of Tau and 3.5K of Guard, Aun'shi, a Kroot Shaper, and an old Company Commander with a bionic eye and a power sword, which I bought recently because it was 99p and a genuinely cool sculpt.

I have a metal Demolisher cannon for a Leman Russ, though, and it adds noticeably to the weight. I'd hate to have to carry around a Sisters army of metal minis, especially with those Exorcists!

As far as Finecast, I only have one model, Shadowsun, who came out pretty excellent. Every hero I have I've converted up aside from the aforementioned metals, and I'm lucky to play two armies that don't have an awful lot of Finecast in them, especially Guard.

[eldargal]

Finecast/resin and plastic are so superior to metal it isn't fun. also anyone who thinks metal is easier to prepare hasn't had to sand down particularly stubborn mould lines or assemble really fiddly metal models. Hellcannon anyone?

[Wolfshade]

This is one of these rare times that I agree with EG (and others). The old white metal (and lead before them) were pains in the arse to deal, especially the hybrid metal plastic kits. Having to pin every join otherwise it wouldn't hold then if the mould lines were on the inside of a whole they were almost impossible to file and get the pegs to match.
Then take Dante, he is so top heavy it isn't funny. Finecast allows all the fine detail that you used to get in metal, only without them being restricted to positions because of the weight of the materal.

[Mr Mystery]

For me, in order of preference?

Plastic, Finecast, Resin, Metal.

Metal is a horrible material to work with, and those who claim to have never had a warped or otherwise miscast piece are, uh...being selective with the truth, and forgetting such joys as buying a model, having to straighten a bit bent in the blister, only to have it snap off, requiring time with a pin drill, greenstuff and brass rod to correct.

Yes, Finecast does indeed have its issues. No material is perfect. But in my experience of the kits, no more so than Metal, and usually a lot easier to fix/sort out.

[Psychosplodge]

I like metal models. But I can't say they've all been perfect.
The only FC models I have are limiteds and they have all been good enough if not perfect, but that could be down to better QC, better manufacturing, or being designed for the casting material.
I do like the versatility plastic gives you.

[Valkerie]

I would be interested in a breakdown of the percentage of problems with Finecast. Now obviously, there are problems, but I think that some of the current hate for Finecast is based on a few anecdotal horror stories that get repeated around the internet, (when was the last time someone complained because they didn't have any problems with Finecast?:)) mixed in with 'OMG I hate GW because it's trendy to hate GW!'

Granted, I don't have a whole lot of Finecast, but I haven't had any problems with it at all, and it would be interesting to see if my experiences are in the majority or minority of customers.

[Mr Mystery]

One complaint about Finecast was proven by me to be nonsense, through the inadvisable application of several beers, a Liche Priest model, and a very hot oven.

In short, it doesn't melt. Indeed, I would wager it stands up to very, very hot tempratures better than metal models....

[Charon]

You would lose the bet.
This is pretty much dependent on how the stuff was mixed. I do not know how they have done this but I had a lot of different "types" of Finecast.

1) perfectly fine
2) extremely brittle (you could actually see and "feel" this)
3) extremely soft (let that spear stand around and it will bend downwards over time)

It seems to me that there were some issues with mixing the resin or huge quality differences by their providers.
Not talking about failed minis with bubbles and missing details (they even had a failcast mini on their website when they released it to show off the "awesome details").
I go plastic whenever I can. Made 10 Grotesques out of Hordes Warspears... saves a lot of money, the result is slightly better and its not finecast.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

One complaint about Finecast was proven by me to be nonsense, through the inadvisable application of several beers, a Liche Priest model, and a very hot oven.

In short, it doesn't melt. Indeed, I would wager it stands up to very, very hot tempratures better than metal models....
I dunno. Sure my Archon is still going strong, but I had a Venomthrope tip over by just standing up in a hot car. Due to tipping over like he was made of rubber, he earned the nickname "Señor Contact Lens". It was never the same again. Then it broke. Mystifyingly, I actually had two Venomthropes sitting in that hot car. Why only one of them went floppy I still don't know, but I suspect that not all Finecast is created equal. I am looking forward to that new plastic Zoan/Venom kit, if only because the grey plastic is more consistently solid.

[ElectricPaladin]

When I first started wargaming, I really wanted metal models. I wanted the tactile experience of *clonk*ing my model on the table. Then I had to assemble my first big metal model, I think it was a warjack...

I now know that plastic and resin are superior.

That said, when it comes to Finecast, I have been known to try to track down the metal versions when possible or snap them up when I know they're going out of print. I've had some bad experiences with Finecast, and so has nearly everyone I know in my FLGS community. I avoid it when possible.

[Peter Mcbride]

I do not buy fine cast. its appaling. My friend brought manglar squigs which looked amazing, but distorted in his house in summer (in uk so not even overly hot). i dont understand how they can get it so wrong when other companies are casting in resin and its fine.

[Lexington]

Forget characters - I pity anyone who tries to get into Eldar these days. Bought a box of Striking Scorpions about a year ago, and not a single one was usable. Three GW replacement boxes later, and I was still only halfway towards a single decent six-man unit. Finally just broke down and got a box from one of the Russian recasters for half the price. Perfect casts the whole way through.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

When I first started wargaming, I really wanted metal models. I wanted the tactile experience of *clonk*ing my model on the table. Then I had to assemble my first big metal model, I think it was a warjack...

I now know that plastic and resin are superior.
When I put together my Seether, I nicknamed it Brock. Because he was from Pewter City. :)

[Defenestratus]

I used to be a metal avenger fan - but I've not had an issue with finecast. working on the models is a lot easier and I don't have to deal with using a jewelers' saw to do conversions.

[Webwolf]

I buy metal miniatures instead of finecast. I still prefer plastic miniatures over metal miniatures, though.

[darthken]

when the wracks were first released, the guy in store had to open 5 boxes of them just to find 5 models that were acceptable to sell to me. since then no failcast for me. i was lucky as i grabbed a metal archon and Urien before they went out of stock

[mikeramos]

I personnely prefer plastic, and finecast over metal, I've only have had one bad fincast figure out of the 50 or so that I own, yeah when they first released finecast there where a lot of complaints mainly wracks, and blood angel characters, but now we haven't had any problems with it at my local store, but would love it when aspect warriors are in plastic

[Pssyche]

I wonder how many of the people who complain bitterly about the failure rate of Finecast when it first appeared and still refuse to buy it now own an Xbox 360?

[miteyheroes]

Urgh, metal was a nightmare. Top-heavy, you had to pin everything that was at all large, so easy to chip, never joined well with plastic... Thank god for modern mostly-plastic-with-some-Finecast!

[jonsgot]

Every medium has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Plastic does not look as good and doesn't have the same amount of fine detail as resin or metal.
Plastic is far easier to work with and paint.
Resin is the most detailed medium but tends to have more quality problems.

For
Bigs kits, rank and file troops = Give me plastic.
Weapons and arms = Plastic or resin
Elites more and more detailed models = I'd like resin or metal.
HQs and Limited edition = I'd like metal or resin never plastic.

Can you imagine how people would react if the government started making plastic coins? Metal has more raw value and will always do so.

[Darren Richardson]

For me, in order of preference?

Plastic, Finecast, Resin, Metal.

Metal is a horrible material to work with, and those who claim to have never had a warped or otherwise miscast piece are, uh...being selective with the truth, and forgetting such joys as buying a model, having to straighten a bit bent in the blister, only to have it snap off, requiring time with a pin drill, greenstuff and brass rod to correct.

I've had the problem over the years with Metal figures myself, in fact I own a squad of 2nd Edition Legion of the Damned, and two of the metal figures helmets are all squashed up, I got them from a charity shop though for couple of quid so I can't complain :D

I can't comment on Finecast, since none of my armies use characters which have been made in Finecast (the benifit of having a Spacemarine army that's one of the obscure chapters) :D

I do have resin parts made by third party companies for adding character or converting models, and they on general have been very good, Mostly Maxmini and Micro Art stuff...

[Mr Mystery]

Every medium has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Plastic does not look as good and doesn't have the same amount of fine detail as resin or metal.
Plastic is far easier to work with and paint.
Resin is the most detailed medium but tends to have more quality problems.

For
Bigs kits, rank and file troops = Give me plastic.
Weapons and arms = Plastic or resin
Elites more and more detailed models = I'd like resin or metal.
HQs and Limited edition = I'd like metal or resin never plastic.

Can you imagine how people would react if the government started making plastic coins? Metal has more raw value and will always do so.

Having built Glottkin and a Maggoth Rider, I have to disagree about big stuff. Really nice kits, and good detailing to boot.

[John Bower]

What metal I do have is 2nd hand; and won't touch finecrap with somebody else's bargepole. I've managed to hold out for my Venomthropes and now it seems I did that right, if rumour is true and everything points to it we're getting plastic ones soon. :)

Other than that most of my HQ's are either scratch built plastic (my Terminator Librarian for eg is a Grey Knight model painted for the Ultras), and my DE Archons and Succubus are all made up from Kabalite and/or Wych kits.

[Pssyche]

John Bower, you're calling it "Failcrap".
Fair enough.
How many Finecast models have you bought and what were their failings?
Did GW Customer Services let you down too?
Just interested to know why you throw insulting terms about like confetti.

My experience is that I've never had a poor Finecast model and neither have my gaming friends, apart from the first couple of months.
The only time we hear "Failcast" is off people who never bought it in the first place.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Can you imagine how people would react if the government started making plastic coins? Metal has more raw value and will always do so.

People seem to be fine with the steady translation to a wafer of magnetised plastic instead of a pile of metal coins right now. For similar reasons to those in this thread: it's lighter and more convenient to work with most of the time.

[daboarder]

I've bought a few finecast models, and if I am planning an exstensive conversion then its MUCH easier to work with than metal, that being said metal has its benefits such as being easier to strip and overall a more durable material, furthermore I can glue peices of metal together gently to get a feel for posing before I pull them apart, clean the joint and begin proper work, cant do that with finecast.


HOWEVER, if I was buying pieces second hand I would buy metal given the option do to the ease with which a person can remove paint and glue form the model resulting in what is essentially the same bare metal as when the item was originally bought. (throw it in acetone for 24 hours and it'll eat the paint and superglue entirely

As for plastic, I find it infinitely better than either Metal and Finecast in all regards.

[Houghten]

John Bower, you're calling it "Failcrap".
Fair enough.
How many Finecast models have you bought and what were their failings?
Did GW Customer Services let you down too?
Just interested to know why you throw insulting terms about like confetti.

My experience is that I've never had a poor Finecast model and neither have my gaming friends, apart from the first couple of months.
The only time we hear "Failcast" is off people who never bought it in the first place.

Well, I've bought a few, and I call it Failcost for sure.

My very first was a Warrior Priest, whose head collapsed when I tried to shave off the mould line because there was a huge air bubble where his brain was supposed to be.

I can't remember in what order I bought the others, but:

Inquisitor Karamazov had no pointing finger, just a hollow cavity. It hadn't even snapped off; it just never formed. Many of the protrusions on my Dark Eldar Haemonculus and Grotesque are similarly half-formed, and the Grotesque's waist joint will not line up no matter what angle you turn it at (it shares the latter problem with my Sslyth, only worse because it's scaly).
I took Karamazov back and complained. Customer Services sent over another, whose legs were covered in some kind of sticky brown stuff; I was able to salvage a single workable model between the two of them, which I then snapped half the cables off in the process of cleaning up because of hidden bubbles, much the same way as the Warrior Priest.

Archons and Medusae each have two helmet options, and both of mine came with two malformed helmets. The Archon's had one side higher than the other, lending them a goofy expression instead of an imperious one. The Medusae's open helmet had excess resin around the pupil, which is inset so it can't simply be scraped off like a mould line, and the closed helmet just had a big mysterious line scored down it.

The legs on my Goblin Warboss on Gigantic Spider just would. not. go. together. Half the sockets were full of the opposite of an air bubble and the other half were too wide. Somehow the fallen log never managed to fit into the picture, either.

I'll admit to having had some successes, too. I don't remember any particular problems with my Tyrant Guard, and my Lhamean and Spiritseer only took a couple of hot water dunkings each to straighten out the bent bits. My Ur-ghul had a warped face, but it's an Ur-ghul - who's going to notice?


---


I don't think I've bought a Finecast model since the Spiritseer. Not because I'm scared off entirely - I'll probably get some Ushabti quite soon and then complain about them too - but because of the recent releases! All the blisters have been plastic except Hobbit releases and the Shadowdancer, but I already had two metal Wardancer Lords.

I'm no fan of metal, either. I've built Exorcists and S-Dragons and Thunderfire cannon, I've greenstuffed wrists and shoulders, I've painstakingly filed off insignia that would have taken five minutes on plastic...
My Nob with Waaagh! Banner has fallen over and fallen apart so many times I'm seriously considering replacing him with a Finecast one, but that option ranks slightly lower than converting a plastic one.

[John Bower]

John Bower, you're calling it "Failcrap".
Fair enough.
How many Finecast models have you bought and what were their failings?
Did GW Customer Services let you down too?
Just interested to know why you throw insulting terms about like confetti.

My experience is that I've never had a poor Finecast model and neither have my gaming friends, apart from the first couple of months.
The only time we hear "Failcast" is off people who never bought it in the first place.

Don't have any. After seeing those that several of my friends bought with holes all over them; weapons more bent than a 10 bob note etc. I chose not to.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I never had any real problems with Finecast (oh no! a small bubble!); I don't really like it as a medium for squads/units, but I'll happily pick up single-figures (characters or monsters) in Finecast when I want them. I welcome wholeheartedly the move to plastic characters, however. It's a superior medium now they're able to produce really detailed and dynamic plastics.

Metal's awful. I think it's only familiarity which keeps people interested. It's heavy, it's hard to convert, the pieces never stick together properly, paint doesn't want to stay on it. I went back and painted my old metal Eldrad a couple of years ago, it was a pain in the ***.

It seems clear to me that Finecast was a stopgap between needing to get out of metals and bringing their plastics fully up to scratch. It did its job. All hail the plastic future!

[Mr Mystery]

Don't have any. After seeing those that several of my friends bought with holes all over them; weapons more bent than a 10 bob note etc. I chose not to.

[engage pedant mode]10 bob notes aren't bent....I think you mean 9 bob notes?[/disengage pedant mode]

[Arkhan Land]

i go for the old metal models cause im not a "poser" (hehe) and by that i mean that i enjoy lots of static old models. the finecast things i have are okay and although the lightness and posability are better overall im not stoked on their succeptebility to heat and the work it takes to mend /fix them up when damaged. i specifically dig the early 40k models the extra lead helps to keep features better than post 1993 models, which is sadly when they started to make some of the better "non static poses"

[40kGamer]

Overall I rank best to worst medium as:

1. Pewter - very durable, minimal assembly for rank and file, great details, difficult to convert, limited poses
2. Plastic - durable, good details for modern kits, easy to convert, best choice by far for large models,
requires a lot of assembly time
3. Lead - Basically the same as pewter although less durable and slightly easier to convert
4. FW Resin - amazing details, have to deal with warped pieces, air bubbles and material is fragile
5. Finecast - Similar to FW resin but casting errors are far more common. Material is a bit softer which
helps reduce breakage but also lowers the warping temp

I'm a true gaming fanatic and have thousands of models across all of the above materials. Every casting medium has pros and cons and they serve different functions. I used to prefer metal over plastic with no question, but plastic technology has advanced to the point that the two mediums are almost interchangeable... and large elaborate kits are far and away better realized in plastic. If plastic tech keeps advancing it very well may edge out pewter for me in a few years. I just love living in the golden age of wargaming.

[Houghten]

oh no! a small bubble!

When that bubble is the exact size and shape of the model's extended finger, it doesn't seem so small.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I can only speak to my experience. I know there's some horror stories out there.

[Anggul]

I've never had bad finecast. I know it definitely happens, but they do replace it and it isn't nearly as prevalent as when it was first brought out.

Pretty much anything is better than metal in my opinion, due to the weight of the parts making models unbalanced and ease of chipping.

[silashand]

I don't buy finecast. I will always take the metal versions if available.

[Denzark]

I have been using metal since I started in 1990. I almost never pin anything - unless I have done some sort of conversion like a hand, head or weapon slot. This goes for big stuff a la dreadnoughts - no pinning unless absolutely necessary. I don't use GW glue, I have quite a good other company at the mo.

Maybe I am just ingrained to the use but never seemed to think they were all that problematic - although harder to clean up mould lines than plastic.

I have got in my head that GW changed its metal or metal mix after a while - the old RT minis seemed to have a really dingy dark grey look and were solid. I have always assumed these to be lead. Later seemed to be quite clean - some sort of white metal (I know people often say pewter but not sure that is what it is?). I also noticed that these later models did not feel as solid and if you held them by the slotta tab and gently hit them off a surface or jangled some in your hand, they would make a chinking noise that the old ones wouldn't.

I have no innate prejudice against finecast and I'm not sure calling it 'failco$t' or some such represents the highest pinnacle of mirth we ever see on these hallowed pages. I have only used one model of fine cast - an Astorath to convert to Kharn for the overhead axe swing.

I think I would say plastic for troops, metal for characters. Because, as Boris the Blade said, 'Heavy is reliable'.

[Psychosplodge]

Think the change occured in the late nineties, as it was lead when I started about 95ish and I vaguely remember the new metal ads in WD.
I think its a pewter alloy as opposed to pure pewter. :confused: but who knows without being in GW procurement?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Change to White Metal, triggered by EU legislation about lead content in toys etc that eventually never passed.

[Darren Richardson]

I think one of the most fundimental things people need to realise between the Plastic/Resin/Metal arguement, is a matter of scale.

If you have sourced a collection of the older plastic figures (produced before 1998ish) you will notice when you compare them to today's figures, the scales are off, so you need the metal figures for command squads and such for those units.

before 1998 the scale was more like True 25mm (the scale used for LOTR/Hobbit range) afterwards any metal and plastic produced was to the current 28mm Herioic scale.

for me I now need to scour the websites looking for a small number of metal mini's to complete these older retro army units of mine, I'd prefer them in plastic, but I can't use that medium because of the scale issue.

[Denzark]

A good point on scale DR. The old RT book states that 1" was roughly 2m in terms of game scale. So if 1" = 25mm (real life) then that means 3mm = 1/8" (ish) or, in games scale, 1/8 of 2m = 25 cm.

So although on original 25mm scale new heroic scale would be up to 25cm taller in real terms, when models are posed and on slottabases I really don't see much difference except on terminators and stuff like that - its less than a foot in height.

Actually I understand GW have always skewed the size of heads, used disproportionate bodies etc to accentuate the minis. So whilst 25-28mm citadel don't seem to figure, I find using 28mm heroic citadel against 25mm other companies (say kryomek or aliens colonial marines) the latter look quite puny.

[John Bower]

[engage pedant mode]10 bob notes aren't bent....I think you mean 9 bob notes?[/disengage pedant mode]

OH they are so bent mate, you find me a 50 pence note in the UK and I'll show you how to tell it's bent (not least because it's a note).

[Cutter]

OH they are so bent mate, you find me a 50 pence note in the UK and I'll show you how to tell it's bent (not least because it's a note).

Oh, you meant Stoke-on-Trent...

[Cutter]

I recently had a nightmare of 4 bad resin kits where the customer support team was literally opening them before sending them and scrounging parts out to me. took 4 weeks and they couldnt find a complete model without a serious molding error. This has basically sent me on the "anti - finecast" crusade where im only seeking out older metal models. The problem is it cost me at least 50 to even 100 percent more for the metal versions.

at least for characters, is anyone else but me looking for the old metal stuff?

I managed to catch most of my bangle characters before the failcost apocalypse, and when I went all ork during the last codex I managed to catch most of the current and previous run of characters in metal on ebay. I think the most I paid was a fiver over retail, but that was for the nob banner lad still in blister. In many cases I paid less than retail for painted or undercoated figures, that, after a couple of days in dettol, were shiny new again.

Don't mind characters in plastic, just never warmed to resin, probably just my advanced age.

[chromedog]

I don't tend to pay extra to avoid finecast.

I'll actively hunt out older metal sculpts at swap meets, bring-and-buy, or gamers 2nd hand stalls, though.

Grabbed a 6th ed tiranoc chariot for my HE, and two bolt throwers with crew that way (for less than what a single model of each costs in plastic).

I stopped buying 40k stuff a couple of years ago, though.

[Arkhan Land]

since some people mentioned it, im not sure theres any pure lead 40k models, i just know that they went from being about 5% to 3% in 1993 or 95 there used to be a pdf of an internal gw document that was around for a bit addressing it. essentially when GW stores opened they constantly got questions from parents about the pewter and the "you hold it by its base" argument did not hold up. when im back from tour ill find it somewhere in my desktop pdf collection

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I have the White Dwarf from when they eliminated lead. They decided to do it for safety reasons.

[Anggul]

I think I would say plastic for troops, metal for characters. Because, as Boris the Blade said, 'Heavy is reliable'.

Not really the case with models. Heavy and metal means breaking easily and paint chipping, light and plastic/resin means not likely to break or chip when dropped.

[GrauGeist]

If styrene plastic is available, I'll gladly go with that. Crisp & precise, non-brittle. Easy to assemble. Multi-pose.

Failing that, monopose metal. Not a fan of pinning anymore. Minor chipping is an annoyance, but that's why we have storage cases.

[40kGamer]

If styrene plastic is available, I'll gladly go with that. Crisp & precise, non-brittle. Easy to assemble. Multi-pose.

Failing that, monopose metal. Not a fan of pinning anymore. Minor chipping is an annoyance, but that's why we have storage cases.

I must be one lucky duck. I have thousands of painted metal models stretching back to the early 90's and I've yet to deal with paint chipping.

[Darren Richardson]

Chipping paintwork is mostly due to type of paint used (chemical balance and ingredants and such) and temperture the models are constaly kept at, as metal contract and shrinks in very hot and very cold tempertures.

[daboarder]

Chipping paintwork is mostly due to type of paint used (chemical balance and ingredants and such) and temperture the models are constaly kept at, as metal contract and shrinks in very hot and very cold tempertures.

Also, once your done, varnish them to protect them

[Darren Richardson]

Doesn't always work, as my Classic mid 90's Empire Mortar has found out :(

[Stucarius]

This is really a generational thing it seems. Younger gamers seem to have different motivations than a lot of the older gamers. If you are a hobbyist or love painting and modeling than plastics no matter how good are always inferior to metal and resin where figures are concerned. For vehicle plastics are great but the limitations of the injection molding process will always give you either and inferior pose and result or a model that has to be assembled from tons of tiny fidgety parts in order to get the kind of detail and dynamic posing you get with resin and metal in models with far fewer parts.

Take a look at the Malifaux figs. Wonderful models that come close to metal and resin quality but they are a HUGE paint to assemble and clean. Far worse than the most fidgety metal model.

I hear complaints about the Thunderfire Cannon in metal all the time. I have three of them sitting right beside me and I found them to be no big deal. I honestly think we are just talking about the difference in modern gamers who probably never built plastic models of airplanes and ships growing up vs kids who grew up playing video games, building with legos and playing instant reward games like card games etc...

Companies are doing the right thing going to plastic but for those of us who love to model it is heart breaking.

For example I just built 40 Assault Marines in jump packs. 30 were a combination of the Blood Angles plastics and the new kits and 10 were the metal Vanguard Veterans. The metal models are just SO SO SO much nicer. Better detail, better poses, more dynamic. Also the plastics take so long to properly clean up mold lines. YUCK!!

Plus when Im paying such a huge amount for a model I want the figure I move around to feel like it has some value vs just being a little plastic soldier like it came out of a cheapie bag from Wal Mart.

[Houghten]

If you are a hobbyist or love painting and modeling than plastics no matter how good are always inferior to metal and resin where figures are concerned.

I cannot agree even for a moment. Painting metal is like trying to sculpt water* and resin's habit of bending on hot days means it is only briefly of any use as modelling material.

High density polystyrene, meanwhile, takes primer like it was born to and can be modelled any way you want it to thanks to its ability to be welded together with poly cement.

*A pre-emptive note to any and all smart alecs: in its liquid phase. If I had meant ice I would have said "ice."


For vehicle plastics are great but the limitations of the injection molding process will always give you either and inferior pose and result or a model that has to be assembled from tons of tiny fidgety parts in order to get the kind of detail and dynamic posing you get with resin and metal in models with far fewer parts.

...are you sure you love modelling? This reads like you view it as a chore.

[DWest]

I honestly think we are just talking about the difference in modern gamers who probably never built plastic models of airplanes and ships growing up vs kids who grew up playing video games, building with legos and playing instant reward games like card games etc...
Personally, I *did* grow up building model airplanes and ships, and it's because of that experience that I avoid metal like the plague. Give me a crisp, clean set of styrene sprues over heavy, awkward, lifeless metal any day.


Companies are doing the right thing going to plastic but for those of us who love to model it is heart breaking.
You speak entirely for yourself there. Especially when it comes to conversions, y'know, those personal touches that shows that it's *your* model that *you* built instead of just another piece off the assembly line. Plastic is easier to cut, easier to discern detail in the unpainted stage, and in the worst case scenario if it gets dropped, the metal won't bend and send any decorative bits you might have added shooting off in random directions.

[chromedog]

I have the White Dwarf from when they eliminated lead. They decided to do it for safety reasons.

Safety to avoid lawsuits over a PROPOSED ban on lead in childrens' toys ( this was a motion an American Senator wished to propose. Many metal miniature producers did the shift - Ral Partha amongst them, switching to lead-free "Ralidium". GW's was equally tinny and hard (if you didn't snip bits off inside a baggie, they would embed themselves in walls or you - little chunks of shrapnel). The ban never went ahead, but by the time that happened, the changeover had already been done, and switching back at that point would have cost more money.

When they went back to a softer alloy (still lead free) Lead was replaced by another metal with similar casting properties. Lead was used in the alloy to start with because it Casts detail easily (it won't HOLD it, though, so other metals are added to the alloy to provide that aspect - like tin). but it's an accumulative toxin. Workers in foundries that use lead castings GET TESTED MONTHLY - and the amount of lead that the average gamer would be exposed to doesn't even approach those levels. UNLESS YOU INGEST it. Quite frankly, if johnny is eating his Space Marine figures, then you have bigger issues than just lead toxicity (like why is he doing it?)

[Mr Mystery]

Safety to avoid lawsuits over a PROPOSED ban on lead in childrens' toys ( this was a motion an American Senator wished to propose. Many metal miniature producers did the shift - Ral Partha amongst them, switching to lead-free "Ralidium". GW's was equally tinny and hard (if you didn't snip bits off inside a baggie, they would embed themselves in walls or you - little chunks of shrapnel). The ban never went ahead, but by the time that happened, the changeover had already been done, and switching back at that point would have cost more money.


Yup. Though I thought it was an EU thing rather than American.

Either way, they did the right thing in making the change before the ban. Just because an attempt to ban failed, doesn't mean it wouldn't leave them open to lawsuits about the lead, or the ban being campaigned for again in the future.

[Da Gargoyle]

Firstly, Jonsgot,
Can you imagine how people would react if the government started making plastic coins? Metal has more raw value and will always do so.. You cracked me up man. Here in Aus the notes are made out of plastic.

As for finecast, I have had problems with every purchase I have had. The weapons on my second batch of Warlocks all warped out of shape and no amount of warm water & and pressing will resolve the issue as they go again. I saw a beautifully painted squad of Rangers at a games day, but their sniper rifles were suffering from serious brewers droop. Literally the rifle barrels looked like they could not support their own weight and just drooped to the floor. It does not work for big models either. My Wraith Seer model required saving because the haft of its glaive looked like the Serpentine road on the norther beaches, (I'm sure the name gives you the idea). In the end I cut a piece from a wire coat hanger and fit the head of the glaive and hand to it.

As far as metal is concerned, I prefer it to finecast. I like the weight other people complain about and I solved the paint wear by spraying mat varnish onto the figure. Coat the figure in a cloud rather than drenching it and you get a hard wearing model that does not discolour with age.

Plastics are my preference though over all. They can match detail with anything now and all models have tolerance limits. For example, my metal Banshee exarch uses the plastic glaive from the Dire Avenger kit for the Executioner because it flexes rather than breaks when it catches. I went through 3 metal ones before I worked that one out. I do agree that Zoanthropes suffered horribly under finecast. I never saw one that was not out of kilter and subject to wobbly model syndrome. Not enough contact point with its base and finecast has no tolerance for weight.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah, Jonsgot... the idea that our money should have intrinsic value is a particularly American eccentricity. We inherited it from the Silver Standard nonsense of the 1800s. The rest of the world got over that a long time ago.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, Jonsgot... the idea that our money should have intrinsic value is a particularly American eccentricity. We inherited it from the Silver Standard nonsense of the 1800s. The rest of the world got over that a long time ago.

Not to mention the fact that other countries have yearly reviews of the composition of metals in their coins, to make sure the coin itself is worth less than its intended value, hence why we don't use copper in Britain anymore, at least not on 1/2p coins.

[Houghten]

Wow, CoffeeGrunt... when was the last time you paid for something with cash? Halfpennies haven't been legal tender since 1984...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Wow, CoffeeGrunt... when was the last time you paid for something with cash? Halfpennies haven't been legal tender since 1984...

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, so I'm gunna note that I meant 1 and 2p coins. :)

[40kGamer]

You speak entirely for yourself there. Especially when it comes to conversions, y'know, those personal touches that shows that it's *your* model that *you* built instead of just another piece off the assembly line. Plastic is easier to cut, easier to discern detail in the unpainted stage, and in the worst case scenario if it gets dropped, the metal won't bend and send any decorative bits you might have added shooting off in random directions.

But skillfully converted metal models are far more impressive do to the degree of difficulty involved.

[DWest]

But skillfully converted metal models are far more impressive do to the degree of difficulty involved.
Just seems like an unnecessary waste of effort. And saws. And pin drills. :D

[daboarder]

But skillfully converted metal models are far more impressive do to the degree of difficulty involved.

not really, merely a different skill set, one where you often waste vast amounts of material in the process for small parts

[DarkLink]

It's not like you would ever know it was a metal model or not unless you picked it up. Has nothing to do with the skill of the conversion, just with how much frustration the converter was willing to put up with.

[Wolfshade]

It's not like you would ever know it was a metal model or not unless you picked it up. Has nothing to do with the skill of the conversion, just with how much frustration the converter was willing to put up with.

I fear I am once again agreeing with DLk. argh! Also, the metal miniature is probably a slightly smaller scale than the rest of the plastic ones around it ;)

[40kGamer]

Just seems like an unnecessary waste of effort. And saws. And pin drills. :D

My biggest complaint was always slightly crisped fingers. Metal heats up like crazy when you hit it with the dremel! I end up using saws, pin drills and more on the plastic models too. :p


not really, merely a different skill set, one where you often waste vast amounts of material in the process for small parts

Plastic 'conversions' are so common and easy that they are better described as kitbashs vs conversions. Plus the metal isn't wasted as you can always save up all the cast off materials to be repurposed in the forge. More often then not the plastic cast off is just garbage.


It's not like you would ever know it was a metal model or not unless you picked it up. Has nothing to do with the skill of the conversion, just with how much frustration the converter was willing to put up with.


I fear I am once again agreeing with DLk. argh! Also, the metal miniature is probably a slightly smaller scale than the rest of the plastic ones around it ;)

Don't know mates. Maybe I haven't fully embraced the new plastic dogma but I still firmly believe that plastic does not equal the overall quality of metal or resin. Maybe it will soon but it's not there just yet. Especially when you get out of GW land and venture into other brands.

And on the issue of time... plastic is the poster child for eating time. To try and match the detail quality of metal and resin plastic models come in a billion pieces, create mold lines that are just as bad to deal with as those on metal/resin and if the kits are not properly created they require lots of energy to fix the design flaws.. (here's to you drop pod... you suck!) And if you get warped plastic you are completely screwed as it takes far more energy to reshape.

[DWest]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with all of these.

My biggest complaint was always slightly crisped fingers. Metal heats up like crazy when you hit it with the dremel! I end up using saws, pin drills and more on the plastic models too. :p
Yes, but my saws and pin drills can be re-used after more than one plastic model.


Plastic 'conversions' are so common and easy that they are better described as kitbashs vs conversions. Plus the metal isn't wasted as you can always save up all the cast off materials to be repurposed in the forge. More often then not the plastic cast off is just garbage.
That's a very double standard, and doesn't take into account custom sculpting or scratch-build additions. Also, who has a forge and casting tools sitting around handy? And plastic scrap is not wasted; put it in a small glass jar, dissolve it in plastic cement, and it makes an excellent gap-filler putty.


Don't know mates. Maybe I haven't fully embraced the new plastic dogma but I still firmly believe that plastic does not equal the overall quality of metal or resin. Maybe it will soon but it's not there just yet. Especially when you get out of GW land and venture into other brands.
Maybe I got an unusually bad run of metals, but I have never understood this "metal has better detail" argument. I've never seen it. Between rough surface texture obliterating fine details, misshapen casts, and poor alignment, plastic has always been my preferred material for crisp detail.


And on the issue of time... plastic is the poster child for eating time. To try and match the detail quality of metal and resin plastic models come in a billion pieces, create mold lines that are just as bad to deal with as those on metal/resin and if the kits are not properly created they require lots of energy to fix the design flaws.. (here's to you drop pod... you suck!) And if you get warped plastic you are completely screwed as it takes far more energy to reshape.
I completely agree the drop pod sucks, however, I don't agree on which one takes more time and energy-- having to get the dremel out every time vs. a quick trim with the hobby knife as parts come off the sprue, plastic seems to win out. And trying to scrape down a misaligned piece of plastic to where it's even vs. a misaligned chunk of metal, there's no contest there, plastic wins again.

[40kGamer]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with all of these.

No worries mate! Life would be far too boring without differing opinions! ;)


Yes, but my saws and pin drills can be re-used after more than one plastic model.

Metal does degrade tools a bit faster although buying diamond tipped industrial grade tools vs the ‘hobby grade’ tools we typically use does help with this. I’ve never ran the numbers but I would guess that it costs more to work in metal.


That's a very double standard, and doesn't take into account custom sculpting or scratch-build additions.

Very much depends on where a person draws the line on conversions. As you mentioned custom sculpting and scratch built parts are definite conversions but both are just as easily worked into metal, resin or plastic. I was in thinking of what people label ‘conversions’ that amount to gluing different parts onto the model or simple repositioning parts.


Also, who has a forge and casting tools sitting around handy? And plastic scrap is not wasted; put it in a small glass jar, dissolve it in plastic cement, and it makes an excellent gap-filler putty.

Fair enough. I consider access to some form of casting equipment either through ownership or outsourced contract to be essential to the hobby but I realize I am very much an outlier on this topic.


Maybe I got an unusually bad run of metals, but I have never understood this "metal has better detail" argument. I've never seen it. Between rough surface texture obliterating fine details, misshapen casts, and poor alignment, plastic has always been my preferred material for crisp detail.

Metals (and resin) are both heavily dependent on human interaction. People have to properly maintain the molds and it takes a person with skill to run the casting equipment. This can (and does) lead to some really bad metal/resin products. Plus the metal quality and the impurities in a particular batch are also important. If you go outside of GW there is a far larger gap in metal to plastic quality. Take these SYW 28mm historical figures sculpted by the very talented Richard Ansell. I haven’t seen anything comparable in plastic that matches this quality.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Gzfjll_2bLc/THu8OJEAuTI/AAAAAAAAA9o/cZWTQuRV-U0/s1600/Legion+de+Hainaut+Greens.jpg

Also the Perry twins have an extensive range of metal/plastic where the metal sculpts are arguably more robust and detailed.


I completely agree the drop pod sucks, however, I don't agree on which one takes more time and energy-- having to get the dremel out every time vs. a quick trim with the hobby knife as parts come off the sprue, plastic seems to win out. And trying to scrape down a misaligned piece of plastic to where it's even vs. a misaligned chunk of metal, there's no contest there, plastic wins again.

Metal is quite useless for large models. I have the original WFB giant that weighs an easy 4 lbs! more of a weapon then a model... Resin is the only large kit alternative to plastic worth considering and since it suffers from being brittle I agree that plastic is most often the preferable medium. There is a significant time difference though. Assembling a FW Baneblade takes a fraction of the time required by the newer plastic one.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The above picture seems to be raw green stuff sculpts, right? That's not really a great example for metal vs plastic, to be fair.

Also, the new plastics have detail comparable to this, especially on units like Scions.

[40kGamer]

The above picture seems to be raw green stuff sculpts, right? That's not really a great example for metal vs plastic, to be fair.

Also, the new plastics have detail comparable to this, especially on units like Scions.

Whoops. I was scanning for a good pic and linked the wrong one! Here's a better sample.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UswgY5zhO9U/Ua32yrkCuPI/AAAAAAAABv0/hEqS5R4_0Bk/s1600/Prussian+Kettle+Drummer.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tWDxhoF0Ly0/Ua32hfCtyPI/AAAAAAAABvM/LgyGeSnp8ys/s1600/Prussian+Grenadier+Carpenters.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NnhhAAMBF-8/Ua32hw9gxgI/AAAAAAAABvU/YcgDsePxK7o/s1600/Armed+Civilians.jpg

And most new kits like Scions do have really good detail. But the trade off with plastic is significant assembly.

http://giftsforgeeks.org.uk/uploads/files/3d%2040k/Imperial%20Guard/Militarum%20Tempestus/Militarum%20Tempestus%20scions%20sprue.JPG

And as good as they are the Scions still fall short of the resin Death Korps/Elysian models and are roughly on par with the metal Cadian Kasrkin offering.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xhcOrC3GLwU/TqXN_GXJf-I/AAAAAAAAAPo/kezPqSmQI_s/s1600/m1241734_99060105170_IGKasrkinPlasandmeltamain_445 x319.jpg

[40kGamer]

And one of the best examples of what metal can do comes from the talented folks at Infinity. Their products are totally ace but do require increased assembly time.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3NSHStCIAAIOPK.jpg:large

[Da Gargoyle]

DWest said
That's a very double standard, and doesn't take into account custom sculpting or scratch-build additions. Also, who has a forge and casting tools sitting around handy? And plastic scrap is not wasted; put it in a small glass jar, dissolve it in plastic cement, and it makes an excellent gap-filler putty.

In actual fact the metal does melt at low temperatures and there are moulding kits out there. When I was a youth I bought a kit that had a clay sand that was used to create a mould of anything you put in it. You used small wood dowels to create the pouring point and air vent and the kit had a steel crucible to melt white metal which I did on my stove. I created low grade copies of field guns and infantry for my Napolionics. I dont have it anymore because I could not be bothered to buy a new one. I lost the old one when the kids hit two and three and started getting into my stuff. The wife and the outlaw double teamed me and insisted molten metal was not appropriate in a house full of curious boys.

These days I use the metal cast offs for weighted bases for some models. Handy tip about the plastic cast offs though. What volume of glue to plastic do you recommend?

[Arkhan Land]

doing metal casting isnt hard, most model stores (trains planes. etc) ive been to used to carry a kit for making lil- lead/tin/whatever soldiers. only thing is the kits they give you to make the harder molds dont last as long. a few years ago i dated a girl deep into a crafts degree and i got to see a kiln and forge at work dealing with brass and the tougher metals. **** is scary. Me and my girlfriend have 5 rather rowdy cats, needless to say I never give this a try.

[DWest]

Da Gargoyle-
I believe it was 2:1 glue to plastic. I foolishly discarded my jar of the stuff when the Liquid Green Stuff came out, now I'll have to start another one.

As for the metal casting, I'd be more worried about the vaporized mould release fumes than the actual molten metal. In either case, there is (in my opinion) a much better solution: Instant Mold (https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/instant-mold.html). It only takes water hot enough for tea to make the sticks work and green stuff or fine miliput for casting, and you can mould fairly large pieces (I've successfully done a Carnifex Devourer arm, for reference).

Two benefits over metal casting, from my experience:
1) instant feedback: the mould dries mostly clear, so you can see if all the details are being filled properly when you cast, rather than having to wait until it cools/cures to open it up and check.
2) stick-on casting: I'm not sure what the proper term for this would be, but basically what I mean is this: let's say you want to duplicate a specific arm for a Space Marine. You can tack the arm in place on a power armour torso, and catch a bit of the torso in the mould when you make it. Then when it comes time to make your casting, you can attach a wire armature to the torso of the model that will be receiving the arm, and snug the torso into the mould when you cast, ensuring a tight fit and also ensuring the moulded piece won't break off or break apart as easily.

Hope this helps.

[Defenestratus]

I'm actually trying to source a finecast warp spider exarch over a metal one because of the fact I want to do a bunch of conversion work and the thoughts of sawing through pewter makes me sadpants.

[Darren Richardson]

DWest said

In actual fact the metal does melt at low temperatures and there are moulding kits out there. When I was a youth I bought a kit that had a clay sand that was used to create a mould of anything you put in it. You used small wood dowels to create the pouring point and air vent and the kit had a steel crucible to melt white metal which I did on my stove. I created low grade copies of field guns and infantry for my Napolionics. I dont have it anymore because I could not be bothered to buy a new one. I lost the old one when the kids hit two and three and started getting into my stuff. The wife and the outlaw double teamed me and insisted molten metal was not appropriate in a house full of curious boys.

These days I use the metal cast offs for weighted bases for some models. Handy tip about the plastic cast offs though. What volume of glue to plastic do you recommend?

Prince August (IIRC) used to do moulds and ingots and stuff to make metal soldiers, mostly 1815 era, bgut they did some fantasy and roman stuff as well, still got a few of their moulds....