How do you roll: twin-linked - one-at-a-time OR all at once?

[Cactus]

I was in a tournament recently and my opponent rolled his twin-linked weapons all at once. Instead of rolling to hit with his lascannon, checking to see if he missed, then rolling another die at a second chance, he simply rolled two dice to see if he hit (still only scoring one hit if he did hit.)

It struck me as odd, but I guess the odds would still be the same and it would speed up game play a smidgen.

How do you guys and gals roll twin-linked? Am I in the minority of rolling it one and a time?

[40kGamer]

If it is a single dice item with a reroll you can roll both dice to speed up play. I usually do.

[DarkLink]

Only for a single dice, though. It does change the odds if you try rolling four dice for two twin linked shots.

[40kGamer]

I'll also use different colored dice with several single die rerollable items. So a Land Raider with 2 TL Lascannons I would roll 2 white and 2 red D6's needing to score 1 success on each color to get 2 hits and so on and so forth. Really comes down to personal preference but since you are going for a single success it doesn't change the probabilities.

Also when I ran 5 terminators with master Crafted Thunder Hammers I would have 5 different colors that I could use to still roll all attacks at once then choose 1 failure from each of the colors to reroll for the mastercrafted thingy. :)

- - - Updated - - -


Only for a single dice, though. It does change the odds if you try rolling four dice for two twin linked shots.

It sure does!

[Houghten]

I've always found it easier to roll once, pick up all the misses, brush the hits into a "hit pile" and re-roll the misses.
(then pick up all the "still misses," lay them aside, brush the new hits into the hit pile, pick the lot up and roll to wound. It's a lot easier and more fluid to do than to describe.)

Of course, being Orks, I'm only working with fewer than five twin-linked shots if the mob doing the shooting has already taken casualties. Don't even ask about a mob of fifteen Warbikers. I couldn't possibly differentiate between forty-five differently coloured pairs of dice, and rolling one pair forty-five times would be... well, let's just say if my opponent punched me in the face over it I wouldn't press charges.

[vharing]

I have always done it like Houghten said. Say for hurricane bolters at rapid fire range. 6 dice rolled first, pick your hits out reroll the rest. Even on a single weapon like a twin linked lascannon, roll one dice. If it comes out a miss then I reroll it

[clively]

I prefer rolling a die, then if it fails, picking it up and rerolling it.

The reason is that I want my opponent to be fully aware of what's going on and not think that I'm trying any sort of shenanigans. Especially in a tournament setting where you are trying to go fast, being consistent and above board is much more important.

For example, I generally run 10 DE warriors in a Raider with Splinter racks. The racks give me the ability to reroll misses. So I'm using between 10 and 20 dice on the first roll (depends on if Rapid Firing). Then I pick out the misses, move the hits to one side, and do the reroll. In a 1500 point tournament, my part (move/shoot/assault) generally only takes about 10 minutes per round anyway as I typically know exactly what I'm going to do as my opponent is finishing up.

[GrauGeist]

Only for a single dice, though. It does change the odds if you try rolling four dice for two twin linked shots.

No, it doesn't.

2 red, 2 green, 2 white, 2 black = 4 twin-linked dice.

[DarkLink]

Yes, actually, it does. If you color code dice, then you're basically rolling multiple single tl shots at once so you can indeed keep track of the results. But without the color coding, if you just throw out four identical dice for two tl shots you just cheated your opponent.

[Mr Mystery]

I think I'd rather my opponent just roll in separate batches.

The time saved by digging out separately coloured dice etc just doesn't seem worth it.

[daboarder]

I think I'd rather my opponent just roll in separate batches.

The time saved by digging out separately coloured dice etc just doesn't seem worth it.

Yeah this is basically it, by the time you picked out 4 lots of paired colours you may as well roll 4 random coloured dice and then pick up any that missed

[Pssyche]

Plus, if I don't know your army and you're rolling and shuffling bucketfuls of dice willy-nilly, whilst muttering "twos...threes...greens are Meltas..." It confuses me at best and ends up angering me because I have no idea of how many shots I'm taking nor what you're doing in the slightest.

[John Bower]

Plus remember that if you have mixed weapons T/L or otherwise they are supposed to be rolled separately in 7th; as it can now affect the range. So if you have a flamer, a missile launcher and for example 7 bolters all t/l, then you would check the flamer first (if you are sensible anyway) roll any wounds, re-roll any that didn't wound, then move on to the bolters rinse and repeat.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Basic rule of good sportsmanship - if you need to explain your dice rolls, you've probably done it wrong.

Also one of my bugbears about custom dice - they're not consistent with whether the symbol is the one or the six. Just use standard D6, and nobody can get confused or be accused of cheating etc.

[daboarder]

Yup.

Basic rule of good sportsmanship - if you need to explain your dice rolls, you've probably done it wrong.

Also one of my bugbears about custom dice - they're not consistent with whether the symbol is the one or the six. Just use standard D6, and nobody can get confused or be accused of cheating etc.

make sure your consistent, I really cant think if why you wouldnt be to be honest

[Mr Mystery]

Quite so.

I'm sure it's not a deliberate thing those with custom dice attempt, but it can be a pain in the bum.

Likewise agree any approaches, such as having batch rolled, picking up the failed rolls, leaving the successes. Just keep it consistent throughout that game.

[daboarder]

your best picking up misses normally, that way the other player has a chance to verify the roll

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. But as long as it's agreed beforehand, either works.

Actually had an opponent roll a random handful of dice for his Bretonnian Archers - random because I don't recall him counting them out. Soon as he'd rolled, snatching 'successes' up into his hand. Except I'm pretty quick at most stuff, and the speed he went picking them up? I couldn't have told you what the results were. He then got shirty when I pointed this out....

[Wolfshade]

Picking up misses I think is the better way around. After all you are less likely to pick up additional misses then pick up additional hits. Also, it gives your opponet chance to skim over them to make sure they are right and if there is a benefit of the doubt well it is less contentious to have diddled yourself out of a hit then it is to diddle yourself an extra hit.

I like to be quite verbose about what I am rolling for and why, doubly so in CC. I have a pile of die for each model it is mainly for my own peice of mind. Though a mob of 40 orks on the charge it would probably just do the calculation, explain it and roll all the dice in the world.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Yup. But as long as it's agreed beforehand, either works.

Actually had an opponent roll a random handful of dice for his Bretonnian Archers - random because I don't recall him counting them out. Soon as he'd rolled, snatching 'successes' up into his hand. Except I'm pretty quick at most stuff, and the speed he went picking them up? I couldn't have told you what the results were. He then got shirty when I pointed this out....

Ooo, "That Guy." I hate playing against "That Guy."

[Mr Mystery]

Picking up misses I think is the better way around. After all you are less likely to pick up additional misses then pick up additional hits. Also, it gives your opponet chance to skim over them to make sure they are right and if there is a benefit of the doubt well it is less contentious to have diddled yourself out of a hit then it is to diddle yourself an extra hit.

I like to be quite verbose about what I am rolling for and why, doubly so in CC. I have a pile of die for each model it is mainly for my own peice of mind. Though a mob of 40 orks on the charge it would probably just do the calculation, explain it and roll all the dice in the world.

Yup.

Particular in Warhammer, you can wind up rolling a veritable bucket of dice. So for my Ogres, I'll gather the dice per model, then per rank. That way my opponent can reliably see I'm rolling the right amount etc.

I do the same for my Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows.

[gabiballetje]

I suggest just rolling to hit, then pick out any misses, and reroll those.
It is just more clear to everyone, also may prevent cheating, some people will try to.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, always pick up misses. Always. It's just good etiquette.

To expand on the math behind the OP: in statistics, continuity of individual strings of "events" are important. You need to have some way of isolating out each individual set of TL shots. It doesn't matter what dice you roll per shot, since all that matters is that at least one succeeds, but you have to differentiate between the dice used for each shot. If you just pick up four dice for two TL shots and roll them without any differentiation, you won't get the same odds. It's possible you roll two hits and two misses. Problem is, are those two hits on the same shot or on different shots? If you had rolled separately, you might have rolled two hits for shot A, and two misses for shot B. You would have thus rolled two hits when you should have gotten a hit and a miss.

That's where colored dice come in. You use the dice to identify each independent "event" in order to maintain consistency. Then it doesn't matter what order of dice you roll, as long as you have two color coded dice per one TL shot. There's a statistical term for that which I'm forgetting. It's kind of like "with/without replacement" in regards to poker, but for rolling dice instead.

[Strigis]

Basic rule of good sportsmanship - if you need to explain your dice rolls, you've probably done it wrong.

I’m not sure I agree 100% there Mr. Mystery, I normally talk through the process of rolls while I’m gathering my dice. Ex: “4 autocannons @ 2 shots each, 1 heavy bolter @ 3 shots; autocannons are the black, heavy bolter is the green; need 3’s to hit, etc., etc” then pow, down with the dice. I try to be as transparent with the dice I’m picking up as possible; in my opinion it also keeps my opponent “in the know” about what’s being done in case I make a mistake.

Regarding the OP and the twin-linking the only thing I fast dice are my reserve rolls if I happen to have a Comm relay. For shooting, I roll it, pick up misses, scoot hits to the side then re-roll the misses and bundle all hits for the to-wound roll. The only time I do different colors is as per the above example if I’m firing different weapons and then, they only get rolled if the shortest range weapon has range to the back of the unit I’m firing at making sure I don’t cheat my opponent by “out-ranging” shorter ranged guns.

[Mr Mystery]

I just find it quicker to grab the dice I need, then roll for each weapon type. Saves on potential confusion, and probably takes less time than explaining which is which prior to rolling :)

And you're always going to get some goon who decides because you've used specific dice for a specific weapon that clearly you're cheating because they must be loaded dice etc :) (no, not me. I'm not one to fuss if you cheat. I'll just feel quietly sorry for you)

[DWest]

Personally, I've never used the "2 dice per shot" for twin-linking, although that's mainly because I either have nothing twin-linked, or I'm playing a Sicaran tank or have Prescience, so I'm twin-linking more dice then there are colors in the color wheel. I do use the "pile o' shots" method if I have multiple colors of dice on hand. I also find if certain dice are rolling "hot" it helps alleviate bad feelings to leave them in the middle of the table and offer to let my opponent to use them.

[-Tom-]

And you're always going to get some goon who decides because you've used specific dice for a specific weapon that clearly you're cheating because they must be loaded dice etc :) (no, not me. I'm not one to fuss if you cheat. I'll just feel quietly sorry for you)

Well, I do know someone who uses specific sizes of dice for different things... apparently dice the size of the small GW dice, the ones about 1cm^3, tend to get micro bubbles in them that give a slightly higher chance of them rolling low numbers. So, he uses those for leadership tests. Whereas he will use the larger dice for to hit/wound rolls where you would want to avoid 1's and 2's.... it's not that the dice are loaded, more that over a large number of rolls there will be a slightly higher number of occurrences of 1's on the small dice.

[Houghten]

“4 autocannons @ 2 shots each, 1 heavy bolter @ 3 shots; autocannons are the black, heavy bolter is the green;

You may want to re-read the rules for shooting in 7th.

You now resolve each different weapon type completely before moving on to the next.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, I do know someone who uses specific sizes of dice for different things... apparently dice the size of the small GW dice, the ones about 1cm^3, tend to get micro bubbles in them that give a slightly higher chance of them rolling low numbers. So, he uses those for leadership tests. Whereas he will use the larger dice for to hit/wound rolls where you would want to avoid 1's and 2's.... it's not that the dice are loaded, more that over a large number of rolls there will be a slightly higher number of occurrences of 1's on the small dice.

Hmm. Gamesmanship.

If you don't feel given dice are random enough, don't use them at all!

[Strigis]

You may want to re-read the rules for shooting in 7th.

You now resolve each different weapon type completely before moving on to the next.

I understand the rules for shooting completely. I also know that trying to get in a 6 turn game during a tournament in 2 hours forces you to accelerate the speed of turns. Our local meta has agreed to allow combining of shots based on a few easy to remember rules. It’s not your meta so I’m not going to spell it all out as you most likely don’t care anyhow; but if you do I’ll be more than happy to send it to you in a PM.

[daboarder]

You may want to re-read the rules for shooting in 7th.

You now resolve each different weapon type completely before moving on to the next.

provided both weapons are well within their maximum kill range (and you designate which is "first") rolling like above isn't an issue

[Mr Mystery]

provided both weapons are well within their maximum kill range (and you designate which is "first") rolling like above isn't an issue

Yup.

Resolving in an agreed order doesn't need rolling to match

[John Bower]

Yup.

Particular in Warhammer, you can wind up rolling a veritable bucket of dice. So for my Ogres, I'll gather the dice per model, then per rank. That way my opponent can reliably see I'm rolling the right amount etc.

I do the same for my Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows.

Ever play Orks in 40k? Buckets of dice don't even come into it; you need a whole dustbin to roll them.... LOL

[Mr Mystery]

Pretty much the same :p

I don't need buckets. I just use my freakishly large hands.

[Wolfshade]

Or use something like this:

http://www.binbin.net/photos/43514/Yeo/Yeoman-Hand-Leaf-Collector.jpg

[silashand]

If it is a single dice item with a reroll you can roll both dice to speed up play. I usually do.

Same here.

[40kGamer]

Ever play Orks in 40k? Buckets of dice don't even come into it; you need a whole dustbin to roll them.... LOL

Same with guardsmen. Ever been on the receiving end of a big combined platoon flashlighting you with first rank/second rank? The volume of dice gets crazy!!!

[This Dave]

Same with guardsmen. Ever been on the receiving end of a big combined platoon flashlighting you with first rank/second rank? The volume of dice gets crazy!!!

At Astronomicon in Toronto this year I had an all infantry Praetorian Guard force. I also had a white pith helmet I was wearing. Several times I had to use the helmet as a dice rolling cup when firing an entire platoon. :)

[Cactus]

Yeah, always pick up misses. Always. It's just good etiquette.


I agree. I hate the "pick up hits" players - I feel like they are playing three-card-monte with hits.

[Hal]

Same here.

Yup, I used to do the same... Especially with my mantle autarch's cover saves. The funny thing is, when I was throwing 2 dice at once (failing only on snake eyes) i never failed a save.. Then my opponents asked me if I could rather re-roll the die, and believe it or not, I actually started failing some saves since then. :)