Flyers in normal 40k games?

[Atrotos]

I've frequently used my Thunderbolt in regular 40k games but recently while looking for a pick-up game I came across someone who felt flyers were "unbalanced" and not suitable for 40k. I disagreed stating that the cost of flyers takes into account their many benefits and that all flyers, even the mighty thunderbolt, have trouble making their points back (not just in kills but game influence as well). In addition flyers are very fragile and will generally go down to dedicated fire. Even if they are totally ignored they are unlikely to have a great impact on the game.

My list only included a Vulture and the Thunderbolt for Heavy support and so when I asked him if he wanted me to field a couple of Leman Russes instead he hastily agreed that maybe flyers weren't so broken after all.

What do you guys think? I feel GW may yet make flyers regular units in 40k (perhaps changing the rules for skimmers) which would allow them to continue this trend of adding units like the Valkyrie and Tantalus.

[Cryl]

I think flyers have a lot of potential in 40k and the forgeworld models, particularly the Thunderbolt and the Marauder, are amazing and I'd really like to see a decent set of flyer rules make it into the game.
For units like the Thunderbolt though, I'm not sure that counts as a skimmer is the way to go unless they just move like skimmers but still keep the rule that means they're only hit only on a 6; alternatively the rules could always give a flyer a 4+ cover save which can then be negated by units like the hydra as it's an AA gun. AV10 all round won't stand up to much so making something that costs 180 points easier to hit isn't really the answer to making people want to use it. Personally the 'hit on a 6' unless you're an AA weapon makes sense to me, fighter bomber aircraft should be really hard to hit but fairly easy to bring down if you do manage to hit them.

I'm sure I remember a rumour a while back, around the apocalypse release I think, of a plastic thunderhawk model to go with some flyer rules, that obviously never materialised but I still think we could see something to accompany the trend of releasing flying units albeit in the far future.

[mountaincycle661]

Now, Im not totally sure on the situation as is....Can flyers only be used in Apocalypse games or can you take them in normal 40K games as well? I honestly think that flyers should be allowed in normal games. I own two chaos hell blades and they're so much fun! The count as a fast attack unit in a CSM army, which is great because that area of the FOC is pretty dismal for chaos. Ive only ever used them in apoc games.

I also agree that they really arent all that broken. I mean, most side armor on vehicles matches the front armor (rhinos, Land raiders/speeders, all eldar vehicles, trucks, etc) and thats the only facing you can hit. So my auto cannons have got thier work cut out for them.

In a normal game, do the flyers still move an unlimited distance? Or do they just count as skimmers? If they just count as skimmers, thats pretty lame. Im asking these questions because if i can use my hellblades in a normal game, Id finish painting them...like, tonight!

[Shavnir]

In a normal game of 40k there aren't any rules for fliers. If you want to allow them in normal 40k games that's your group's decision however do know that the flyer rules are some of the most comically overpowered things possible in Apocalypse.

[Mystery.Shadow]

Ask a Chaos Daemon or Tyranid Player what they think of Flyers in 'regular' games of 40k.

[Valkerie]

Back in 3rd ed in the Chapter Approved VDR's, there were some rules for using flyers in regular games, [way before Apocalypse was around]. I don't have the rules handy just now, but as I recall, they were pretty nasty. Even armies with long range weapons had a hard time just hitting them, much less bringing them down. With the movement they had, they could prety much hit anything on the board, regardless of cover, and as they were hitting top armor, [i.e. rear armor], they could pop vehicles easily. We used them a few times, but decided that they were a tad overpowered for a friendly game, so we eventually stopped using the flyer rules.
By the way, one of the Forgeworld updates had rules for using the Vulture as a skimmer in regular games. Might be worth looking up.

[Valkerie]

Ask a Chaos Daemon or Tyranid Player what they think of Flyers in 'regular' games of 40k.

I wouldn't mind, as long as my critters with wings would be allowed to attack it in hand to hand. Imagine the terrified expression on the face of a Thunderbolt pilot as a Bloodthirster lands on his plane's nose and proceeds to rip the canopy off, then reach in and pull him out. In pieces. Has a very anime feel to it. Strength 8 monstrous creature attacking armor 10; not a pretty sight.

[Bean]

Basically what Valkyrie said. If you work up your own set of house rules for how flyers work that renders them fair, then they'll be fair (obviously).

If you use the Apocalypse rules for them, they will be absurdly unfair and overpowered.

So, if you're going to use them, take the time to write your own rules for how they work, and run those rules by your opponent.

[Sir Biscuit]

I honestly have no problem with them, but I think the following rules are only fair:

1.) No super heavy fliers. If it has structure points, it's out.
2.) Units may move and assault under a flier normally. If a unit moves or assaults under a flier, simply move the flier out of the way to accommodate movement.
3.) One flier per selection. No squadrons.
4.) Each flier takes up one fast attack selection.
5.) The game's minimum size is 1850
6.) Jump infantry, jetbikes, and anything else that "flies" is allowed to assault normally. (Obviously they'll hit on 6's!)
7.) Use the rules for fliers in the apocalypse rulebook.

In my opinion, honestly, fliers are not that bad. Honestly, a thunderbolt costs one hundred and eighty points. That's almost 50% more expensive than a vendetta, and let's be honest, the vendetta is much better at tank busting. Hell, for that cost you can get a demolisher with multi-melta sponsons!

People have a tendency to see models like this and think: "That's for apocalypse, it'd be absurdly overpowered in a standard game!", and this is really not the case. Sure, titans, superheavy tanks, thunderhawks etc. are all way under priced, but the standard fighters and "fluff" units tend to be very reasonable. Look at the hydra in apocalypse, which is worse than the one in Codex: Guard, but costs two hundred points.

Seriously, anyone who thinks fighters are overpowered hasn't really played against them.

[Gir]

Flyer are horrbily unblanaced when they're only on one side. I had a thunderbolt pop a couple of brass scorpians, no problem. I tend to find that they are less of a problem with other flyers on the table, because they'll spend a decent amount of time dogfighting.

I also don't think anything should be able to assault flyers. It just doesn't make sense. You're talking about something over a kilometer in the air traveling at over 2000km/h. Jetpacks/jetbikes ect. are not designed for those hights or speeds, and can only make short jumps.

[Sir Biscuit]

I find that hard to believe, as two twin-linked autocannons and a twin-linked lascannon are hardly effective against AV 13 and two structure points. Or did you forget like most people that fliers always hit the SIDE armor of whatever tank they shoot at, not the rear?

Vendettas are far superior anti-tank to thunderbolts. Thunderbolts are not that good.

[Gir]

I find that hard to believe, as two twin-linked autocannons and a twin-linked lascannon are hardly effective against AV 13 and two structure points. Or did you forget like most people that fliers always hit the SIDE armor of whatever tank they shoot at, not the rear?

Vendettas are far superior anti-tank to thunderbolts. Thunderbolts are not that good.

It's not that hard to take out 2 structure points in one shot, but it was a poor example.

Vandetta's are limited by their movement, they can't cover the whole table in a single movement phase. Also, try giving a Thunderbolt bombs and watch what happens when you drop them on a mob of ork boyz.

[gcsmith]

There are rules for flyers in 40k its imp armor, the apoc book rules are the rules for apoc. IE strength d cant be in 40k but in apoc can

[Shas'O D'Narb]

My sense is that there will be a continuation of merging somewhat incongruent ideas into standard 40K and it will continue to be a gradual process. Indeed, I'd be shocked if the next edition ruleset will include them but I do expect to see the groundwork laid with the intention of incorporating the various 40K-related rulesets. Perhaps this would occur via a late GW softcover addendum to 6th edition, accompanied by some more models, and then fully supported by 7th edition bigbook and codices.

[Valkerie]

Flyer are horrbily unblanaced when they're only on one side. I had a thunderbolt pop a couple of brass scorpians, no problem. I tend to find that they are less of a problem with other flyers on the table, because they'll spend a decent amount of time dogfighting.

I also don't think anything should be able to assault flyers. It just doesn't make sense. You're talking about something over a kilometer in the air traveling at over 2000km/h. Jetpacks/jetbikes ect. are not designed for those hights or speeds, and can only make short jumps.

I actually agree with you on the jumppacks/jetbikes, but something like a Bloodthirster is a creature of the Warp. It should be able to do pretty much what it wants too.
However, the main reason I suggested units being able to assault flyers was two fold: 1. give armies that don't have long range weapons, (or any shooting weapons), a chance to bring them down, and 2. a Bloodthirster tearing apart a fighter is just such a cool image. Straight out of any number of anime/manga productions of the last several decades.

Another solution would be to tell your oppenent about your flyers ahead of time. Most all-comers lists don't really have anything to combat flyers, so this would allow him to be prepared for yours. Makes for a more balanced [and fun] game.

[Melissia]

Make a houserule that adds anti-air to my Exorcists and it wouldn't be TOO bad. The Exorcists would rip your flyers apart though.

[Lerra]

I would like to see Flyers incorporated into the standard 40k rules, but it would require a complete overhaul of the flyer rules to make it balanced. I think it could be done, however. I love the idea of models with wings being able to attack flyers in melee. That is just badass.

Half of the problem with flyers now is that there are no 5th ed rules (and the most recent version is one of the Imperial Armour books that few people have).

[Mystery.Shadow]

Flyers vs Flying.

Horrible Movie, but this flick has all the cool parts in it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcialPKhiT4

Tee hee hee.

[Renegade]

If balanced out so that any thing with a heavy weapon has a chance to take it down, then I would be up for this.

In air ground attacks that are not bombing runs, planes tend to fly that little bit lower.

[SombreBrotherhood]

All good concerns regarding rules balance, etc. so far, but my objection is one that is much more practical. Most flyer models are BIG. Playing on a 5x4 or 6x4 table with three Valkyries is enough of a pain as it is in normal games. If you add one of those big-*** Chaos bombers or a few sleek Eldar interceptors to what could be an already-crowded table, I think it would outweigh the fun of using them. Every movement phase you avoid bumping the huge, expensive resin masterpiece that is loitering an inconvenient foot above the table...no thanks.

[Mystery.Shadow]

Those 'Expensive Resin Models' aren't too bad if you base them properly.

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apoc121309/

And

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/ApocalypseHalloween09/

Take a look at these two battles, and you'll see. Many people aren't 'afraid' to field them!

[TSINI]

I would suggest the flyer rules in Imperial Armour Vol. 1

They are a tad complicated - basically interrupting the enemy shooting phase, but are really characterful for aircraft. covering strafing runs. these were also intended for ordinary games of 40k, not apocalypse (like all forgeworld gear really...)

[Hyperion]

It's not that hard to take out 2 structure points in one shot, but it was a poor example.

Vandetta's are limited by their movement, they can't cover the whole table in a single movement phase. Also, try giving a Thunderbolt bombs and watch what happens when you drop them on a mob of ork boyz.

Of course they can, if you use flyer rules. Vendettas aren't skimmers, they're flyers with hover mode