Tau overwatch & smart Missiles

[SnakeChisler]

A Tau unit has supporting fire but can it fire overwatch at targets it can't see

Book says use normal rules for line of site etc.. except as usual there are no normal rules for Tau

[CoffeeGrunt]

A Tau unit has supporting fire but can it fire overwatch at targets it can't see

Book says use normal rules for line of site etc.. except as usual there are no normal rules for Tau

Just like Hive Guard, Smart Missile Systems override the limitation that they can't fire at a target out of sight due to their Homing rule. So the usual requirement that they may only fire if they have Line of Sight is not required here.

[ShadowcatX]

A Tau unit has supporting fire but can it fire overwatch at targets it can't see

Book says use normal rules for line of site etc.. except as usual there are no normal rules for Tau

What was the question?

[SnakeChisler]

Does a smart missile equipped Tau with supporting fire need line of sight to fire overwatch

(This would normally be Broadside Missile suits or it could be a Tank with smart missiles with the supporting fire upgrade)

CoffeGrunt has stated that no it doesn't which is fair enough, I just wondered if I'd missed something in the main book which it appears I haven't.

With the Tau stuff breaking the normal USR's in multiple places its best to check and 7th hasn't really made it any easier anything out of the usual means a hunt through the BRB if were not sure.

[CoffeeGrunt]

With the Tau stuff breaking the normal USR's in multiple places its best to check and 7th hasn't really made it any easier anything out of the usual means a hunt through the BRB if were not sure.

I'd note that saying Tau ignore most of the game's rules in each post makes you come across slightly bitter. As I pointed out, Hive Guard and anything with Barrage also ignores Line of Sight, (though Barrage weapons are Blasts, and thus cannot fire on Overwatch.

Compared to Space Marines ignoring the game's Morale system almost entirely, or Guard making a laughing stock of the Force Organisation Chart, the only thing Tau really change about the game is Supporting Fire and Multi-Trackers. Hell, even the army-wide Night Vision an all-Battlesuits army can bring is matched by Dark Eldar.

If you want tips on beating Tau, I and several others can offer some. However, making them out to be some broken boogeyman strikes as being a little bitter. All I'm saying.

[ShadowcatX]

Coffee is correct, both on firing without line of sight and on the fact that you sound bitter.

[SnakeChisler]

1st off thanks for your reply its much appreciated.

I'm well aware of the Tau codex in general and I can understand your defensive nature given the fact you waited soooo long for a new codex and when it arrived the Win At All Costs brigade hijacked it to abuse the allies system.

But they did that to a number of Dex's yours wasn't the only one abused though probably the most infamous with the TauDar setup.

Anyways 7th is here and times have changed and I think for the better for everyone.

As for something being OP then invisibility takes the top honors I've only used it the once and against a Tau player and it didn't make for a good game since then I've kind of avoided it.

[ShadowcatX]

I don't know about coffee, but I haven't waited for anything, I only just returned to the game with 7th edition. And, I'm not a Tau player.

[Dave Mcturk]

1st off thanks for your reply its much appreciated.

I'm well aware of the Tau codex in general and I can understand your defensive nature given the fact you waited soooo long for a new codex and when it arrived the Win At All Costs brigade hijacked it to abuse the allies system.

But they did that to a number of Dex's yours wasn't the only one abused though probably the most infamous with the TauDar setup.

Anyways 7th is here and times have changed and I think for the better for everyone.

As for something being OP then invisibility takes the top honors I've only used it the once and against a Tau player and it didn't make for a good game since then I've kind of avoided it.

lots of design flaws in 7th - but its an improvement once you get used to the new 'quirks' - we are thinking of house-ruling invisibility to 3 warp charge - and supershroud -[which is just about as useful] to 2 warm charge. the thing with psychic powers - both in selection and in use is that they are very unpredictably random ! [maybe 5 warp charge should be an auto pass without rolling for any power ?]

my personal OP that defies logic is the Tau 36" 5/5 smart missile - is hunter seeker [ok] - ignores cover [? - maybe] - and is twin linked [? - on a bs 4 or 5 platform] - two out of three seems fair - but all three is just death to things like eldar rangers, i mean they have survived for centuries but havent learnt how to avoid a poxy low tech missile!]

"warm charge" typo - lol

[CoffeeGrunt]

They're on a BS3 platform, it takes Markerlights to make it higher. Also Smart Missiles aren't low-tech, they're very high-tech.

[Charistoph]

my personal OP that defies logic is the Tau 36" 5/5 smart missile - is hunter seeker [ok] - ignores cover [? - maybe] - and is twin linked [? - on a bs 4 or 5 platform] - two out of three seems fair - but all three is just death to things like eldar rangers, i mean they have survived for centuries but havent learnt how to avoid a poxy low tech missile!

Even better that it costs the same as an 18" gun that has the same rate of fire, same Str, same AP, same TL... :confused:

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mounted on a chassis that has an S10 Tank-killer gun, rendering the SMS moot against the target's it'll be shooting at...

[Charistoph]

Mounted on a chassis that has an S10 Tank-killer gun, rendering the SMS moot against the target's it'll be shooting at...

Or with 8 Seeker Missiles and 2 Networked Marker Lights. At least with the Devilfish, you have to pay to swap out the Drones.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Or with 8 Seeker Missiles and 2 Networked Marker Lights. At least with the Devilfish, you have to pay to swap out the Drones.

6 Seeker Missiles, and must remain immobile to fire more than one weapon at full BS. Again, whatever you're shooting at with Ignores Cover Krak Missiles won't care about what are effectively Pulse Rounds.

That may be linked to why no-one runs Devilfishes with the SMS. It's not as good as you think

[Dave Mcturk]

oh my stirred the wasp nest.

first of all wasnt having a go at TAU - but of all their strange and unique options this is the ONE that grates on me.

specifically i play eldar / DE [mostly] and the hunter seeker really is death to T3 A5/A6 troops.

lots of ppl [you all see battle reports] play on billiard tables - then the difference between a 5pt twin linked scatter lazer and the hunter seeker is probably non-existent. our local meta is to play with 'realistic' terrain, usually at least a 1/3rd of the table is 'area style cover' [ruins, jungles, high ground, depressions etc] and some of it is also usually LOS blocking. - line of fire weapons will certainly not fire effectively on most turns.

the tau missile system is then a little OP as it ignores all these visibility restrictions and to boot [under gw rules] also ignores psychic boosts from shrouding and stealth - it also automatically ignores jinking which is vital for eldar jetbikes - DE bikes are particularly vulnerable as they only have 5+ armour!

the other point that was made concerned 'application' on tau units - sensible players with a few 'spare points' will mount hunter missiles on BS4 or 5 platforms - putting them on BS3 units that have a higher priority weapon is not really the problem !

[CoffeeGrunt]

the other point that was made concerned 'application' on tau units - sensible players with a few 'spare points' will mount hunter missiles on BS4 or 5 platforms - putting them on BS3 units that have a higher priority weapon is not really the problem !

If someone is spending Markerlights to boost an SMS to BS 4/5, then they're frittering them away, really. Consider that the platforms that use the SMS are mainly the Hammerhead/Skyray, and the Broadside. The former must remain static to be able to fire the SMS at full BS alongside their more important primary weapons. The latter is potent, yes, but not so much when they can be pointing HYMPs at you , and also be outranged by Dark Lances that will one-shot them.

Secondly, this isn't a unique thing to Tau - Hive Guard have S8 AP4 weaponry with the same rules, and Barrage is a category that works very similarly, albeit with Blasts.

[Dave Mcturk]

If someone is spending Markerlights to boost an SMS to BS 4/5, then they're frittering them away, really. Consider that the platforms that use the SMS are mainly the Hammerhead/Skyray, and the Broadside. The former must remain static to be able to fire the SMS at full BS alongside their more important primary weapons. The latter is potent, yes, but not so much when they can be pointing HYMPs at you , and also be outranged by Dark Lances that will one-shot them.

Secondly, this isn't a unique thing to Tau - Hive Guard have S8 AP4 weaponry with the same rules, and Barrage is a category that works very similarly, albeit with Blasts.

these are fair points - but hive guard and some other similar weapons only fire 24" [although they can move and fire] hammerheads are a class example as they have massive range and due to the new 'jink' rules in 7th rarely have to move unless threatened at close quarters.

hive guard have been nerfed to BS3 and are no longer as lethal as they used to be and long range OOS barrage weapons are unlikely to get direct hits [certainly not automatically] and rarely ignore cover.[ i'm sure there are some exceptions]

a bs5 hammerhead just 'removes' T3 infantry at 36" - at least DE get FNP in the new codex - but eldar or similar are just toast -
again my DESIGN point is that a weapon system is improbable that can be twin linked [why not just increase shots at start], ignore all forms of cover [has no one seen the movies], and can be fired at long range at a completely unspotted target.

Are they teeny tiny missiles - or bunker busters? [teeny missiles can be avoided by subterfuge - think Dune - think shut the door on it or duck behind the tree - if they are moving incredibly fast ? - then there isnt much justification for twin linking] Teeny tiny missiles can be shot down, or screened against.

IMO - the weapon system is annoyingly effective above BS3 - but hey ho its a game and the simple cure is 'invisibility' - but then thats not broken is it ?

[CoffeeGrunt]

The SMS has a 30" range. Helpful, but hardly massively better than the Hive Guard's 24", not to mention the far superior Strength and better AP of the Hive Guard weapon. Not to mention that the platforms carrying the SMS cannot move and fire at full BS like the Hive Guard or most Barrage vehicles can.

Each missile is equipped with an intelligent AI that allows it to seek the target without the operator pointing it at said target, hence why it both Ignores Cover and Line of Sight, it moves around obstacles to hit it's target.

Where Eldar get Brightlances or Scatter Lasers, Guard get Lascannons, Multi-meltas and Plasma Cannons, and Space Marines get Lascannons as extra attachments to the primary weapon, Tau only get the SMS, and have no ability to split the fire PotMS style. Hence why the SMS is often irrelevant on a Railhead due to the tank-hunting nature of the main gun.

Look, if what are effectively 4 Pulse Shots with Ignores Cover from a main battle tank is ruining your army, you need to rethink your strategy.

[ShadowcatX]

Every army has things that are better or worse against other armies. Sms is good against dark eldar. Not so much against their craftworld cousins because they get an armor save (excluding guardians who don't get used). Learn to deal with it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Heck, Legion of the Damned will tear DEldar Troops a new one...even Lasguns hurt them bad.

[Dave Mcturk]

Every army has things that are better or worse against other armies. Sms is good against dark eldar. Not so much against their craftworld cousins because they get an armor save (excluding guardians who don't get used). Learn to deal with it.

its not a major issue for anyone - it just grates on my design nodes - because it does real harm to units that would [presumably] have developed sensible counter-measures [such as anti-missile cloaking / point defence] - for example cloaked eldar rangers in deep cover [think sas infiltration] or guardians behind defence lines [ high tech force field anyone ?]

T4 or Ar4+ troops are almost completely unaffected by puny tau missiles.

and yes tyranid hunter seeker missiles annnoy me too ! :p

[CoffeeGrunt]

On one hand, yes, there would be effective countermeasures.

On the other hand, there would be effective counter-countermeasures put in to beat said countermeasures.