Big kits and GW's current model direction.

[YorkNecromancer]

So, we're in the ages of Knights, Wraithknights, and giant, giant kits.

So what do people think about living in the age of the action figure?

Because that's kind of how this feels to me. The big kits have always held an appeal, simply because they're big. I remember the first time I plonked my home-made Baneblade on the table back in the days of 2nd ed, and how awesome it was to have a huge model in the army. But the thing is, GW just seems to be turning into an action figure company whose figures are well overpriced and require assembly.

Here's some examples of what I mean:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5413/dsc00512fe.jpg
This is a Nightmare figure (from the game Soul Calibur). They're about thirteen years old now; I got mine back in 2001. You can get this figure on the eBay for around £15 now. It's the size of a Wraithknight, and came pre-painted. It's easily as detailed as a GW kit too. You could easily use this as a conversion for a Lord of Skulls, or just base it properly and use it as a FW daemon prince.

http://www.actionfigurearchive.co.uk/ekmps/shops/carpetmonster/images/tortured-souls-12-talisac-%5B2%5D-133-p.jpg
This is a close-up of Talisac, a MacFarlane figure from the 'Tortured Souls' range. Now, yes, that's a promo shot, but I can tell you now: the actual figure looks exactly like that. Seriously, the level of detail was easily as good as Forge World. The figures cost around £11 new, and can be found for £ to £4 on eBay. They came pre assembled and prepainted, and could easily be converted to some kind of super-grotesque.

http://usatoys.ru/77-1443-thickbox/the-matrix-apu-deluxe-boxed-set-mifune-s-last-stand.jpg
This is 'Mifune's Last Stand', a MacFarlane model from their line of 'Matrix' toys. It cost £30, and is the size of a Warhound Titan. It came exactly as it looks there, painted and assembled. The Mifune figure himself isn't great, but look at that mech. I have one on my mantlepiece and I can tell you now, those pistons all work. It is an unbelievable kit, and it sold for less than a Land Raider.

LESS THAN A LAND RAIDER.

Here's one of the craziest examples I'm going to use.

http://www.he-man.org/assets/images/collect_toy/200x_trap_jaw_main_full.jpg

That's the 2002 resculpt of Trap-Jaw, and that is a LOVELY sculpt. Look at the detail there. Yeah, he's got joins and seams etc, but seriously. Look at how detailed that figure is! He cost me £7 new, and is the same size as the Nightmare figure, if not a little taller. If you filled in the joins, tooks off the mould lines, painted and based him? He'd look amazing.

He's the same size as Nagash.

Here's the point I'm making: GW is not the best manufacturer of large scale kits. They do make lovely kits, don't get me wrong... But the Wraithknight is an action figure. Nagash is an action figure. These huge, large-scale models? They're nothing special when you compare them to what the other companies - other companies who aren't afraid to call themselves toy companies - are putting out. For less. Pre-assembled. And painted.

The thing that GW does better than anyone else, IMO, is the inch-high infantry we all know and love. Yes, there are competitors for them now. Anvil Industries, Prodos, PP, and so on. But GW is the only one to reliably product styrene kits which allow conversion potential like no other. That to me seems to be their unique selling point. Which is why I'm kind of against these huge kits; by the time you get to something that big, I tend to think: 'Yeah, it's nice, but this company does something nicer which costs 10% of what you're charging me.'

And I say that as someone who spends most of his hobby time converting and painting, so I love new kits, especially unassembled and unpainted.

What do other people think? Am I wrong to find the larger kits mildly insulting as a concept?

[Gotthammer]

I get what you mean. I mean the Zoids High End Master Model line are super detailed, poseable and a helluva lot cheaper (http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10228926). For example the Iguan is 13cm tall and costs around $30-40 usd depending where you buy from:

http://www.gunjap.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/116.jpg

And a Sabre Tiger is around $50 - 60:

http://zoids-japan.com/img/HMM/st01.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vMvyIG8YDEI/UpyKDy2kXiI/AAAAAAAAA0Q/xStguVylpiY/s1600/2.jpg

And I picked up this statue of Rachel from Ninja Gaiden that's 12" tall for a tenner:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ninjagaiden/figure-3.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

I'm going to come out on the side of the big kits. Because they're more than just an action figure.

A big kit is the centrepiece of a collection. Whether it's unpainted, or a heavily converted Golden Daemon winning paintjob, they're absolutely fantastic things.

Just the other day I picked up a Maggoth Rider (assembled as Bloab). Whilst not the biggest of kits, it's impressive all the same, and went together like a dream.

Now rather than compare them to collectible toys as above, let's compare them to other games companies offerings. PP do their really big kits, and to be honest I find them daft looking. I've seen a few in the flesh, and whilst of impressive scale, I just don't see the same quality of detail as GW manage. And the best bit? GW continuously strive to improve those kits. The Baneblade was their first big offering in plastic - and it's pretty cool. Then came the Stompa, followed by the Shadowsword. All very nice kits, and a decent balance between a practical gaming miniature and a collectors piece. The Imperial Knight has knocked that up another notch, as has Nagash, and from the look of it, Glottkin.

To date, I can't think of any GW kit (not including FW for obvious reasons) on that scale that's a pain in the bum to put together, necessitating pinning etc. That to me is a big win for the overall design ethos. Because as much as their are world class modellors in our hobby, with skills to make your hands cry, there are also total noobs - youngsters who have just joined, and somehow wangled the biggest kit they can out of their parents/relatives. And they can, with a bit of patience, get decent results out of the kits as well (though take away the patience, and like most model kits, they're an abomination waiting to happen!)

I had one of those Matrix things about 11 years ago, and damned nice it was too (though I'm sure I paid more than £30 :p ). Trouble it.....it broke. Was moving house, and one of the arms came away at the shoulder. And you couldn't get the controls into the dudes hands because of how they'd been designed. Where it broke could not be repaired, so it wound up in the bin.

[YorkNecromancer]

Now rather than compare them to collectible toys as above

Give me a reason why not.

Yes, GW's big kits are better than most other wargaming companies, but they're only in line with other toy manufacturers. And every company strives to improve their kits!

http://www.actionfigurepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tjgenerations.jpg

See?

Now, if you were to say something like: "Well, other companies aren't making action figures for a wargame", well, what about that recent news that neither was GW? That they do the model first, then leave the rules as an afterthought?

If they want to be judged as a model manufacturing company - a toy manufacturing company - they don't get to pick and choose their rivals! We can't say "GW's the best in the business... so long as we ignore all those guys over there doing stuff that's as good, only cheaper."

If people want to say GW are the best in the model business, that's fine... but the second those 'models' become action figure sized, then why can't we compare them to actual action figures? Because I'll tell you now, MacFarlane toys in the early 2000's were WAY better than GW at producing large-scale kits. WAAAAAY better.

http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm7/leatherface2003/images/mm7_leatherface2003_photo_01_dp.jpg
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm7/hicks/images/mm7_hicks_photo_01_dp.jpg
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm6/hunter/images/mm6_hunter_photo_01_dl.jpg
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm6/queen/images/mm6_queen_photo_02_dp.jpg
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm5/darkness/images/mm5_darkness_photo_01_dl.jpg
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm5/djinn/images/mm5_djinn_photo_01_dl.jpg

All these pictures are of models that are the same size as Nagash and which sold for under £15.

If people are interested in others, have a look here: http://www.spawn.com/toys/categorytype.aspx?categoryid=8

The bottom line: GW's kits aren't 'the best in the world'. At all. They're good. But there are people who are arguably better, and who don't charge the insano prices.

I mean, check out the Blair Monster:
http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/mm3/blairmonster/images/mm3_blairmonster_photo_03_dp.jpg
How is that any different in quality to the Chaos Spawn stuff that FW produces? Or the new Glottkin? Yes, it could be painted a little more professionally, the gaps could be filled... But come on. That is a quality model.

[ShadowcatX]

If the only reason you buy models from GW is because they look cool, then yes, you're massively over paying. But I doubt very many people do that. They buy models because the models are more than just the models themselves, they're part of a game. You can pretend that they're the same, just like I can pretend my honda is a porshe, but that doesn't make it so.

[YorkNecromancer]

You can pretend that they're the same, just like I can pretend my honda is a porshe, but that doesn't make it so.

That's a false analogy. Honda and Porsche have different performances. Models don't. They either look good or they don't. If they don't, they can be converted and repainted.

Unless you're buying them for the brand loyalty? To be seen as the big spender and score extra points of social status? I've always despised Veblen goods personally, and loathe the fact GW aims to/ believes it has become one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_Good

Action figures are raw material. GW don't support or endorse tournaments any more, so why not? Why not convert/field these things?

[ShadowcatX]

Models don't.

Oh really? Show up with your action figures at any tournament, tell me how they perform.

[Gotthammer]

That's also why I posted the Zoids - come as a kit, require the same amount of modelling skill IMO and have more details for a significant fraction of the cost:

http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig22/10228926n3.jpg


http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig22/10228926z.jpg


(plus they come pre-coloured so you don't have to paint them if you don't want to)


http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig22/10228926a7.jpg


It's a similar sized model kit to model kit comparison.

[YorkNecromancer]

Oh really? Show up with your action figures at any tournament, tell me how they perform.

I would, if I played at tournaments.

And tournaments =/= wargaming as a hobby. It's quite possible to be a serious wargamer without ever going to one. (I pretty much breathe wargaming, but my interest in tournament play is roughly the same as my interest in attending a BDSM club. It'd probably be a fascinating place to visit, but it'd leave me feeling bored and a little sad very quickly).

If my mates wanted to field a converted Zoid (that sabre-toothed cat thing is awesome) or something as a Tau Riptide or whatever, I'd let 'em.

I mean, I've got one of my own, and I think it's pretty sweet.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/MaltonNecromancer/Gundam/2013-12-31141241_zps33ba49e5.jpg
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?38689-Imperial-Guard-121st-Bifrosti-Riptide

[ShadowcatX]

I would, if I played at tournaments.

And since I drive the speed limit my honda's a porshe, right?


If my mates wanted to field a converted Zoid or something as a Tau Riptide, I'd let 'em.

If my friends wanted to field a zoid as a riptide I'd laugh him out of the room.

[YorkNecromancer]

If my friends wanted to field a zoid as a riptide I'd laugh him out of the room.

Which says more about you than him.

[Insert_nickname_here]

To me, the examples you posted don't even come close to, for example Nagash or the Riptide. Even the Zoids only reach the giddy heights of adequate for me.

Merely my opinion, of course.

[Path Walker]

Yeah, i'll be honest, most of those aren't very good, they're not nearly as detailed as GW big models, even if you keep saying they are.

Also, a big part of the hobby is assembling, painting and collecting models, the zoids just don't scratch that itch!

You might have had a better argument using Gundam models, but then, their price is up there with GW most of the time.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm mixed on this.
I think the knights, the dreadknight , the riptide all look silly, and too toy like.
But the big tanks, the gargant, and the larger FW offerings all work well.

[Eldar_Atog]

That's also why I posted the Zoids - come as a kit, require the same amount of modelling skill IMO and have more details for a significant fraction of the cost:


I have to agree that the zoids pics you posted have detail that matches or exceeds some of GW's big kits. They are about the same price though. When I look on amazon, most of the zoid kits I see are in the 80 to 100 dollar price range. They look like a treasure trove of bits for an ork player though.

For me, the assembled action figure is not very appealing. My main interests are painting and getting a monthly game in. I would not want these preassembled/prepainted models. They are beautiful in their detail and cheaper.. but I want to paint.

Now, if someone shows up at the table with a non-GW model that they have put a lot of work into, I'll still be glad to play. The rule of cool always wins out :)

[Path Walker]

Zoids and GW conversions have a long and storied relationship.

The much vaunted "Deoderant Grav Attack Tank" includes a gun from the Zoids line

A lot of the early RT era vehicles used Zoids parts.

[DWest]

The other big problem is one of compatibility-- yes, you could likely sub in a gribbly action figure for a large Daemon, an Alien for a Tyranid, maybe even a Gundam for Tau. But that leaves Eldar/Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Space Marines/Chaos Marines, and Orks swinging in the wind. (Yes, I know you could use GI Joe stuff, but I was under the impression your argument was for action figures that were less expensive and better assembly than GW stuff)

Then there's the nature of the conversion work itself- there's a non-trivial investment of time, energy, and other resources (bits, stock plasticard, glue, putty, etc.) that goes in to a quality conversion. Now, for a singular, centerpiece model, those investments are considered irrelevant; I want X big shiny thing in the middle of my army, and I'm willing to crank away at it until it's done. But if you're looking at conversion purely as a money-saving operation, I think it falls short in most* cases, once you've factored in the work needed to make the model emulate the original version to a sufficient degree, as well as deal with whatever suspect rubbery plastic the action figure is made from, and so on.

In short, if you can get a GW kit for Price X, or a conversion for Smaller Price + Labor, you're actually saving money only when the time and sanity spent on the conversion is worth less than the difference in price.

*the one case where it usually pays to convert is when the kit in question is FW resin.

[Mr Mystery]

That's a false analogy. Honda and Porsche have different performances. Models don't. They either look good or they don't. If they don't, they can be converted and repainted.

Unless you're buying them for the brand loyalty? To be seen as the big spender and score extra points of social status? I've always despised Veblen goods personally, and loathe the fact GW aims to/ believes it has become one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_Good

Action figures are raw material. GW don't support or endorse tournaments any more, so why not? Why not convert/field these things?

Please actually read my point, instead of just pushing your own opinion.

I didn't say GW do the best models evar!!!!111ooon1!!! I pointed out GW have additional design issues to take into account, and do a bang up job. I then compared them to actual contemporaries, like PP etc, which you brushed past/missed entirely.

[Caitsidhe]

I have shown up with conversions from other toys and because they looked good nobody had a problem with them. As long as you could clearly tell what it was supposed to represent, the TO allowed it. There "was" a time when it mattered, you know... back when GW helped sponsor and run tournaments. They don't anymore. They claim they aren't even a game company. They just make models and happen to have a game you can use with them but suggest you do whatever you want with that game. Guess what... that is exactly what people are doing.... :) I can, for example, get a whole ARMY of Aliens models which look absolutely awesome and use them as Tyranids. I could do it for pennies on the dollar. It would look great, nobody would have any problem knowing what represents what, and it would all be part of the fun.

The issue is that Games Workshop IS NOT THE HOBBY. They are just a merchant who supplies product for the hobby. :D Even more exciting for the rest of us is the fact that digital printing will soon allow us to not only print out the models we want, but do the conversions we want on the computer screen and then print said model. If I like the arm off one model, the head off another, and the torso off this thing.... I will make my own for my own use. It is completely legal. You just can't make them and sell them. :D

[JMichael]

I do really like the big kits. I really enjoy playing 40k, but the modeling and painting is what got me in and keeps me in.
But the prices are ridiculous! For regular infantry models too.

Look at how many large scale Military Tank models are available for far less. You can get a 1/35 scale tank with moving tracks and incredible details (often interiors too) for around $50 USD or less! Add a few extra bucks for brass etched parts and you are still far less than a GW Land Raider.
The GW large kit prices seem to be based on what they feel we will (and do) pay for them rather than scaled up from what they cost to design and manufacture.

I think DUST Tactics also shows how a company can make and sell quality products for a fraction of the cost. Those models come assembled and primed as well and you can pay extra to buy them painted from the company! Great way to get people into the hobby!

In my gaming group only a few of us are in it for the modeling/painting hobby. Thus most people have poorly assembled and rarely even primed armies. Because they don't have the time, skill, or desire to do otherwise. That is fine, and perhaps GW's numbers show that the needn't change from a business perspective.
I would hate for 40k to become a pre assembled game, but if they were more reasonably priced I for one, would probably spend more annually as I would begin collecting more armies.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's pretty hard to defend GW's pricing, to be fair. However, part of the reason might be the production capabilities available to them. Most kits are outsourced to China and thus cost far less to produce, whereas GW produces its own models in the UK where labour is far more expensive, and I believe Privateer use local American casting facilities where similar costs occur. Both are roughly comparable in price.

An Aliens or Zoids model has enough fan-backing to go into mass production, because it's an easy sell. You like the Xenomorph? Here, have Xenomorph. Their prospective customer base is far larger than GW could ever hope to attain, because GW require you to sit down and assemble your minis, paint them up nicely, and then get to display or play with them. To be fair, for the majority of us here, that's probably a major selling point.

I've often wondered about getting Revell models or similar, ground-based vehicles to splice into my Guard for conversions, but heck, it's difficult to find ones that look suitably comparable to what I'm trying to get them to represent, given the Guard's...unique vehicle design in terms of tanks.

[DWest]

I've often wondered about getting Revell models or similar, ground-based vehicles to splice into my Guard for conversions, but heck, it's difficult to find ones that look suitably comparable to what I'm trying to get them to represent, given the Guard's...unique vehicle design in terms of tanks.
The biggest problem with trying to do this is one of proportion; a Leman Russ is built on a 3:2 ratio of length to width, whereas most real tanks are closer to 2:1. This means, you end up with a model that's too long, too narrow, or both. A related problem is that the closest scale to 40k proportions is 1:48, which is not a popular scale for military armor, and hence expensive. For example, the British Matilda makes about as good a starting point as any for a Leman Russ conversion, but a 1:48 scale kit is only offered by Tamiya, and the list price is $37 (compare the $49.50 for a Russ), so you're not really saving anything, once you factor in conversion work (at a bare minimum, the Matilda needs larger guns on the turret and hull).

[Caitsidhe]

The biggest problem with trying to do this is one of proportion; a Leman Russ is built on a 3:2 ratio of length to width, whereas most real tanks are closer to 2:1. This means, you end up with a model that's too long, too narrow, or both. A related problem is that the closest scale to 40k proportions is 1:48, which is not a popular scale for military armor, and hence expensive. For example, the British Matilda makes about as good a starting point as any for a Leman Russ conversion, but a 1:48 scale kit is only offered by Tamiya, and the list price is $37 (compare the $49.50 for a Russ), so you're not really saving anything, once you factor in conversion work (at a bare minimum, the Matilda needs larger guns on the turret and hull).

Except 40K proportions are weird anyway. All you need to do is get a model that is approximate to size and in scale with the rest of the models you use. We all know the current scale GW uses is silly. The correct number of troops won't fit in the Rhino, Land Raider, whatever... so the scale is just kind of well... irrelevant. It it looks good in synch with the other stuff on the table... use it.

[YorkNecromancer]

Except 40K proportions are weird anyway.

This is honestly why I scratchbuild so much stuff. I'd love it if more things were produced in 1/56 heroic scale.

[Denzark]

Some of the range is particularly toy like - and getting more so. I don't like the big xenos walkers, I don't like centurions, I don't like the fact that all stock heldrakes are bending their necks the same way. The entirety of the Tau line, possible excepting kroot and a ethereal cast chappy, look like toys. The Wraithknight veers very close.

But, with the ability to convert/scratch and the sheer number of options in GW kits, they are good for me. Some of those giant film 'collectibles' - they are awesome but seem a bit - I don't know, flat.

[Eldar_Atog]

But, with the ability to convert/scratch and the sheer number of options in GW kits, they are good for me. Some of those giant film 'collectibles' - they are awesome but seem a bit - I don't know, flat.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's not that they lack personality.. it's just that they don't match our perceptions of the Warhammer universe. The Lord of Darkness comes very close to being a greater demon of Khorne or Slaanesh. Some might argue with me about the Slaanesh aspect but Tim Curry's voice just brings to mind a Slaanesh-esque tempter. But even as close as he gets to it.. even he doesn't quite match up with the universe.

[Mr Mystery]

Angel Spawn is a good one. Mate of mine repainted it into blue and gold, and used it (in store, with my permission) as a Tzeentch Daemon Prince.

[Kirsten]

a lot of the quality detailed figures are not intended to be moved around a lot either, they sit on shelves and look pretty. going back to Mr Mystery's Matrix thing, it broke when moved. GW models are expensive, and I wont pretend I don't want them to be cheaper, but they are as high a quality as anything else you will find in terms of detail, and stand up to being used as well. plenty of other toys do one or the other.

[Denzark]

I think if I was being dramatic - you can tell what is a toy - and what is a model. I glue all my hatches and turrets etc. I have models. I don't like the term toy soldiers although GW have started to use it. When someone says toy soldiers I thing of metal Victorian things being played with in front of a fire place.

[Arkhan Land]

I do think its interesting comparing GWs big robot kits to say something like a Bandai Gundam kit, a knight sized gundam kit can run you anywhere from 40-60 bucks but for more than that you can get models that are comparable to reaver titans in size eventually.

my personal opinion is that its entirely likely both of any of these models you pick out were built by people of similar technical credentials and experience and essentially what you are seeing is the classic play out of the domestic work/goods versus exported work/goods. The work the artist/cg engineer puts in on the new FW knight titan is worth more than the work a Bandai person using the exact same method and materials gets simply because he had the divine providence to be born in the western world where our wage and worth are ramped up and then drained for profit. Now whats interesting is how in general all of this kind of work is eventually doomed because of the lower costs of overseas production/design and low and behold as a gaming community do we not now see a gigantic wave of third party produced items made in china, sold by us store-fronts, or in some cases the part and parcel overtaking of the operation by overseas companies complete with entire GW knockoffs. Gone are the days of the specialty companies of the US, Britain, France and Italy turning out "Artisan Level" Masterpieces carefully casted in pewter and resin (Even sometimes contracted to work producing for GW), Behold the day of Rendered Molded and then Mass produced Model!

[Morgrim]

And yet that 'problem' is self correcting: prices in China are starting to rise as the living situation there does and as the government begins clamping down on unsafe work conditions. So I don't feel it is inevitable that all manufacturing will move overseas simply because of prices. Even now we're at the point where you need sizable production runs for that to be viable. There is always going to be room for more local artisan companies when those companies are focusing on smaller production runs.

[joosterandom]

I feel like this topic's compared apples to oranges. Action figures maybe be cool and all, but they're absolutely no substitute for a designed-for-gaming model, or even a constructed model.

As a side note, it's worth pointing out that there's very few pictures of action figures in this topic. Most of what's being shown are display figures, which are designed almost exclusively for look and don't touch, so they get more detail. Action figures are designed for play, and are generally much more robust and less detailed. Based on what I've got on my shelves, there really isn't many that are both look great and stand up to gaming.

There's also the matter of construction and painting, which I'm sure is impossible to deny as a huge part of the hobby to players and collectors alike. Display figures aren't designed for that, and unless you want it to stand horribly out of place in terms of aesthetic, pose and paintjob, you need to put in a far more advanced and difficult job of converting it.

I think a far more fair comparison would be to sit large GW kits next to mecha model kits, like the Gundam mentioned in the topic or, what I think is even more appropriate, Kotobukiya's Armored Core model kits. They're roughly the same size and perhaps slightly more complex, while offering the same kind of paintablity and durability. Certain Core designs, such as Crest or GA America, even hold enough of a blocky, heavyweight feel to even pass for 40k with minimal conversion.

http://media.archonia.com/images/samples/42/99/44299_s0.jpg
http://plamoya.com/bmz_cache/3/32c8e85e86212563c27c4638bb8501e4.image.458x500.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRpCHqlT2xID0QgHGOZTfyhXQSTvfYE yDgT89Q7OIMiPkJrMd_Mw
https://www.estarland.com/images//Extra_Product_Images/Anime_Merchandise/Figures/JAN11/armored_core_sunshine.jpg
http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/IMG_1063-sized.jpg

Unfortunately many of these kits are discontinued, and as such they're pretty expensive to get a hold of, but even newly released they don't compare too favourably compared to GW. It's a saving in the region of 20% of a similar sized GW kit, and that's assuming no conversion work.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Oh boy, those are pretty...

[Erik Setzer]

If my friends wanted to field a zoid as a riptide I'd laugh him out of the room.

WHAT?!? That's ridiculous, and a really poor attitude. Sure, it's not 100% an "official GW model," but if someone converted one or had something they wanted to use to represent a GW model and it made sense, I'd definitely let them. Maybe it's because I was around back when you didn't have much choice. But heck, the original 40K rulebook had a picture of a "hover-tank" converted from a deodorant stick container (and they brought it back for the Vehicle Design Rules a few years ago). They also had a picture of a G.I. Joe vehicle they'd repainted and positioned to try to hide the more blatant parts of it. GW themselves used to do that stuff and encouraged gamers to convert and have fun with stuff.

Now, just because the current suits running the place want you to only believe GW exists and no one else out there exists, you want to act like people can't use anything that isn't a GW model? Really?

If you tried laughing me out of the room, I'd laugh you out of the room in such a manner as to make you feel like the kind of small git who won't let a person field a nicely converted model.

- - - Updated - - -


But that leaves ... Orks swinging in the wind.

Pft. Real Ork players can make Ork models out of ANYTHING. Seriously, when I take a trip through the toy section of a department store, my mind starts making Ork vehicles out of everything.

Still, you should obviously convert it, and not just show up somewhere with a fleet of Scooby Doo Mystery Vans as "Ork Trukks." (It's happened.)

- - - Updated - - -


I don't like the term toy soldiers although GW have started to use it.

It's not exactly a recent change. Back in 1998, after a nasty house fire, we were having issues with our insurance paying to replace stuff, and I wrote to Andy Chambers asking what he'd classify GW figures as, and he called them toy soldiers and seemed to think that was pretty obvious. (Granted, he later changed his mind to calling them "collectible miniatures" when he found out that insurance companies will depreciate those a lot less than "toy soldiers." Good man!)

[DWest]

Pft. Real Ork players can make Ork models out of ANYTHING. Seriously, when I take a trip through the toy section of a department store, my mind starts making Ork vehicles out of everything.

Still, you should obviously convert it, and not just show up somewhere with a fleet of Scooby Doo Mystery Vans as "Ork Trukks." (It's happened.)
At what point though do you have so much plasticard on the thing that you would have been better off simply twisting together a wire armature and gluing card to it to start with? From my forays into Orks, I found it fairly hard to get a good looking model out of a toy vehicle. Maybe breaking one up for parts (wheels, guns, etc), but that that point, it's likely cheaper to order the needed components from a bits seller.

[LordGrise]

Folks, first away, let's run the relevant flags up and salute, shall we? Gee-dubs stuff is INSANELY expensive. And subbed models from other lines are not welcome at Gee-dubs tables.

There are endless justifications for those two statements. A good many of them have been aired here. I don't care.

The price of just one of Gee-dubs big models is anywhere from half to two-thirds of our two-weeks food bill. Or half of my (brand new when signed for) truck payment. Or nearly the entirety of our monthly utility bill - and I live in South Texas. Air conditioning is not spared here.

I am not a good painter. But I am a highly skilled builder, if I say so myself. The last kit-bash I did, the by far kindest reaction I got was 'Looks cool. Why'd you do it?' The concept was a Tau-refurbished Sentinel that I was proposing to use as a stands-for Crisis Suit in a Gue-vasa (human helper) army. The general consensus of the store was that I had to be cheating, that the bigger model base of a Sentinel meant the tip of the fusion blaster mounted in place of the las-cannon was a quarter inch further out than on a real Crisis Suit. I had IG guys that I had built with pulse carbines, and that was cheating too, even when I showed that I was paying for them as Fire Warriors. I went home, shelved everything and won't go back. Maybe in ten years after that store isn't remembered anymore.

The game is dying because of Gee-dubs greed and the nothing-goes mentality of the rules lawyers. I used to support this game. Now I just bitterly regret all the time, money, and heart I poured into it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Sounds like you were facing a bunch of ijits. I myself have a Gue'vesa army, that used to feature things like Sentinel-Broadsides, Gue'vesa with Pulse weapons and Drone-Controlled Mortar Teams.

Everyone at my local is cool with them, and it allows me to recycle spare parts, (got 3 Lascannons and 3 Mortars out of a Heavy Weapons box by buying extra bases and building Drones into the weapons to replace Guardsmen.) IMO, and from what they've said, it also adds some cool flavour to the look of the army.

If you've got people claiming that a half-inch extended weapon is modelling for advantage and cheating, they're not worth playing with IMO. Can't help but imagine them being the type that demand you measure and move each one of a 50-strong Guardsman platoon otherwise you might get an extra half-inch in there on a couple!

[Charon]

And subbed models from other lines are not welcome at Gee-dubs tables.

Who cares? As they are down to 1 man stores anyways often with tiny tables for 3 unit promo games you wont play there anyways.

[Denzark]

I feel like this topic's compared apples to oranges. Action figures maybe be cool and all, but they're absolutely no substitute for a designed-for-gaming model, or even a constructed model.


Unfortunately many of these kits are discontinued, and as such they're pretty expensive to get a hold of, but even newly released they don't compare too favourably compared to GW. It's a saving in the region of 20% of a similar sized GW kit, and that's assuming no conversion work.


All those pictures, they're the new Tau suit xv677766?

[joosterandom]

All those pictures, they're the new Tau suit xv677766?

I only posted the Crest/GA America designs, but certain other cores could easily be used as grounds for Tau suits. Take either of the White Glint kits, for example.

http://www.lacitedesnuages.be/boutique/images_produits/zKTO2383.jpg
http://www.gunjap.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1768.jpg

Either of them could easily work as a Riptide with a little converting, and they are in fact newer kits, so you're likely to get them for cheaper than the Riptide itself.