Tyranid swarm army concept/list

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

So I'm thinking of starting a tyranid army (I like the fluff and astetic and they seem to have a decent representation of backstory in rules) I'm thinking of building a real swarm army where I try to get as many models on the board as possible (a tactic that always served me well with skaven) now thats done, list time
1750 Tyranid swarm list
HQ
Hive tyrant - indescribable horror, lashwip and bonesword, regeneration, electroshock grubs, the norn crown
3man tyrant guard brood
Troops
3man tyranid warrior brood - barbed strangler
30man termaguant brood
30man termaguant brood
30man hermiguant brood - toxic sacks
30man hermiguant brood - toxic sacks
Fast attack
20man gargoyle brood
Heavy support
3man carnifex brood
Total = 1750 more or less
I've based this army around the tyranid swarm set, I started by bringing as many broods to max strength as possible, and I tried to make the hive tyrant fairly well equiped (I am unsure if I should give it a heavy venom cannon) the triple carnifexs are the big hitter they will beline straight towards the point of greatest resistance, I imagine the guants would just swarm around taking out lesser pockets of enemys, I'd really be relying on strength of numbers (if I force the enemy to take enough saves they will fail) from this point I'd definitely add more synapse in the form of warriors and shrikes and probably a few more 30man units and a couple big bugs like a tyranofex or exorcine, I know tyranids aren't really a competitive army but I don't exactly play to win (the fact I started with skaven in which I've killed more of my own troops then the enemy has is testament to that)

[daboarder]

you'll need a pair of malanthropes to make that work

drop a fex for em

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

So drop a carnifex and take two one man malanthrope broods?

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Malanthropes are forge world, where would I get the rules for them, or would venomthropes work

[daboarder]

their rules are in the latest anphelion project book.

Their so much better than venoms (who are ust to vulnerable for their role)

EDIT: some more observations, Drop the T-sac on the Hgaunts, its far too expensive, grab adglands on the gargoyles instead and take atleast 10 devourers in each termagant squad. Use the Hgaunts for screening/Tie-ing up units that your other units kill

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

Ok add the anphilion project book to my to get list

[daboarder]

You should also drop a guard so you have two, also get rid of the Norn crown, its just bad.

You need some air cover, so either a pair of Hgaurd, or a crone to cover that base on the cheap

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

Ok so toxic sacks aren't worth it on hguants and take adrenal glands on the gargoyles and I didn't actually realise termaguants could mix weapons in the brood (I actually had to check as I was doubtful) so the devourer mix in seems like a logical thing now

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This list is literally meant to be the bare bones start of a much larger army, I plan to add hive crones/guards at around the point of building to 2500points maximum and probably take them in lower

[daboarder]

Ok so toxic sacks aren't worth it on hguants and take adrenal glands on the gargoyles and I didn't actually realise termaguants could mix weapons in the brood (I actually had to check as I was doubtful) so the devourer mix in seems like a logical thing now

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This list is literally meant to be the bare bones start of a much larger army, I plan to add hive crones/guards at around the point of building to 2500points maximum and probably take them in lower

bare bones and building blocks is fine, with that many gaunts and the malanthropes you've got a half descent core that you can flex around. Not outstandingly top tier, but good enough that you should give people a run in casual games

it may even be worth waiting till this weekend to see what the new bugs do (if its only what is rumoured then dont even bother with them)

[John Bower]

Hang on DB, you want him to drop Toxins on S3 models? When some 89% of armies he'll face are T4; they've always done right by me on my Termagants and Hormagaunts. Much better than S3, heck I usually whack them on anything I can; and it's not those that have ever let me down; it's just certain other armies against which nids have very little chance anyway (Eldar for a start). I agree on the Devourers for the Gants: I wish mine had some but it was an older army that is working much better with the new dex than it did in the last one.

And on top of that you want him to drop 1 model that he can get 2 of for 55 quid for something that will cost him upwards of a hundred? Jeez; you think we're all millionaires?

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

I looked into the malanthrope backstory as well, and I wouldn't take one purely because they aren't meant to take part in the stage of invasion im going for, and I'm a very fluff based player who focuses on forging a narrative more then anything else

[daboarder]

Hang on DB, you want him to drop Toxins on S3 models? When some 89% of armies he'll face are T4; they've always done right by me on my Termagants and Hormagaunts. Much better than S3, heck I usually whack them on anything I can; and it's not those that have ever let me down; it's just certain other armies against which nids have very little chance anyway (Eldar for a start). I agree on the Devourers for the Gants: I wish mine had some but it was an older army that is working much better with the new dex than it did in the last one.

And on top of that you want him to drop 1 model that he can get 2 of for 55 quid for something that will cost him upwards of a hundred? Jeez; you think we're all millionaires?

excuse me? the guy asked for advice on how to make a swarm army work.

Malanthropes with tough Synapse/Shrouded bubble are basiclally a key part of that concept. I know because its very similar to what I run. I dont actually get why you're all prissy about cost, I never said they we're cheap or anything of the sort, and their are plenty of conversions view able on the net that make good looking malanthropes without the FW cost and shipping.

as to toxin sacs....they aren't worth it at 3 pts per model, 8 pt T3 6+ save models are not good. You are better off taking those pts and either putting it into more bodies or using the pts to buy bugs that either will kill things (after the Horms have pinned a unit down) or allow you to boost the gaunts (using psychic powers and or the swarm lord) though that is harder these days with the lack of synergy in our codex.

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I looked into the malanthrope backstory as well, and I wouldn't take one purely because they aren't meant to take part in the stage of invasion im going for, and I'm a very fluff based player who focuses on forging a narrative more then anything else

Theres solid justification for malanthropes to be present during any post invasion list really. because the Nids don't exactly wait to start feeding, they just get right too it.

However if you are dedicated to not running Malanthropes I would recommend this set up instead.

2xZoans brood
Venomthrope brood

The venomthrope will provide the shrouded buff that allows your gribblies to work and the zoanthropes provide the much needed synapse along with the ability to try and crack armour so that your little guys can get into the guys inside. Furthermore each Zoansthrope broodwill get a roll on the nid psychic table, giving you a better chance at getting the Buff/De-buff powers that will allow your gaunts to hurt things / survive.

Finally, A third way to use the list is to run the Endless Swarm Formation, you have the bugs for it and what it means is that your units will return on a 4+ after they are killed. And 6 units of 20 are easier to maneuver than the units of 30

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

I was thinking of taking the endless swarm formation actually, it seemed pretty decent for what I'm going for

[daboarder]

The big issue is losing obj sec

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

From what I understood they didn't loose objective secured as they still count as part of a battle forged army, as formations count as a specialised detachment that functions in a similar way as a ally detachment but chosen from the same armybook, it would be like taking imperial guard ally's with space marines loosing objective secured, as long as you keep the parts of your army that aren't formations to the combined arms detachment you still count as a battle forged army, it was only if you took a formation in a unbound army you'd loos objective secured

[daboarder]

You're thinking of it wrong. Think of it morw as you choose multiple formtaions.
Each formtaoon gets a bonus.
Cad is a variable formation that gets obj sec

Not all formations have obj sec

[Path Walker]

You're thinking of it wrong. Think of it morw as you choose multiple formtaions.
Each formtaoon gets a bonus.
Cad is a variable formation that gets obj sec

Not all formations have obj sec

Not quite, you're mixing up Formations and Detachments, CAD is a Detachement, Formations are a special type of Detachment, a Battle Forged Army must be made up of Detachments, with nothing outside of a Detachment, Unbound Armies aren't restricted to Detachments, they can still include Formations and Detachments but they can have units outside of this structure.

[daboarder]

Thats exactly what I said.

I wad just framing it in term of formation.
The point being non CAD doesn't get obj sec

[Path Walker]

No, you said the exact opposite. A Formation is attype of Detachment, a Detachment isn't a type of Formation. There is no point in conflating the two important keywords.

[John Bower]

Sorry DB but you did indeed suggest that CAD is a formation; there's a lot of difference between CAD and formation, not least a formation MUST Take X,Y,Z units where a CAD only Must take certain types of unit.

And why am I getting pissy about cost? Simply because unlike you seem to be I am fully aware that we don't all have limitless funds to spend on 40k, and athough the OP did ask for opinions on how to build a good list you were 'only' giving him the FW option; how about a normal option as well.

there are good units that aren't megabucks in the tyranid lists, for one thing he wants to go swarm, well that is easy to do; just swamp the enemy in so many targets they can't all be dealt with. In that situation I'd be tempted to drop the MC's largely for Stealers, by the time they come on from outflank the enemy army should be tied up in knots with lots of little gribblies and the stealers then dive in and finish off. I say toxin sacks because of the amount of T4 opponents that otherwise you'll struggle to wound.

A mere 3 points a model may seem a lot but in my experience they've always got their points back once they get there. I do wish I had a couple of venomthropes but until GW do them in plastic I'll wait and go for the night roll on turn 1. :) Then of course immediately head for cover.

[Path Walker]

Unfortunetly, daboarder seems unable to deal with the idea that target priority is a valid tactic and bseemingly goes purely on the stat lines of single models.

[daboarder]

Sigh...I am trying to explain to the guy why they dont get obj sec. Doing so from the perspective of cad being formation being used as a simile. What I am trying say was exatly that.

As to toxin haunts there is almost never a reason to run them. They are 5 pts base, almost doubling the cost for a fragile unit is not a great idea and most tyranid players will back that up.
But whatever its up to the OP which advice he takes.

For a deeper look at haunts here you go.

Haunts are very fast but very fragile. They have two main roles in a swarm, either capping/stealing objectives of or getting into the enemy fast to tie up their units preventing them from shooting your heavy hitters.
Haunts themselves dont work very well as heavy hitters because of their fragility. To make them close to heavy hitters you need to almost double their price and in the most basic example you will still lose 2 or three haunts for each one that makes it across the board into combat against say a tac marine.
Jt should also be noted that because haunts do not have assault grenades a canny opponent will park in cover. This of course means the haunts go last in the first round of combat. Therefore reinforcing the value of quantity over quality for this unit.
Furthermore numbers mean that it does not matter if those haunts cannot kill a wraith knight. Because numbers allow them to lock that knight or whatever other tough unit be it a Super heavy walker or jnit of THSS terminators. In combat. With the right numbers you effectively take the unit out of the game for a fraction of the cost that would take to destroy it

Edit: it should be noted however that a cool combo to kill parking lots is to use SL to FC haunts before they multi-charge...the masses of S4 attacks will wreck rear AV10 without the additional cost of adglands.

If you want gaunts that can kill things then devgaunts or gargs are the unit to go for

[daboarder]

Of course if you run ES then you want to upgrade the haunts because they can come back

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

I've played 40k as blood Angels since the latter part of fifth and I can understand it when the core rulebook for 40k says and I quote "formations are a special type of detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. Whilst some formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to d scribe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a force organisation chart, the army list entries that comprise a formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role when taken as part of a formation
Unlike other detachments formations can be taken as part of unbound armys. If the are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the formation" page 121
Then let's look at battle forged armys " a player using the battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into detachments. Detachments are made up to f units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two troops under ts; another might require that only units from codex orks be included. As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each detachment grants it's own command benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle" page 117
A battleforged army therefore is made of detachments and formations are a type of detachment, so therefore a army can include formations and remain battleforged, though reading the combined arms detachment it does say
"Objective secured: all troops units from this detachment have the objective secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit t is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit has this special rule" page 122
So we are both semi right, I am right in formations being a type of detachment instead of the other way around but I am wrong in thinking it's being a battle forged army that grants objective secured instead of the combined arms detachment

[daboarder]

Edit: nevermind.

[John Bower]

I've played 40k as blood Angels since the latter part of fifth and I can understand it when the core rulebook for 40k says and I quote "formations are a special type of detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. Whilst some formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to d scribe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a force organisation chart, the army list entries that comprise a formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role when taken as part of a formation
Unlike other detachments formations can be taken as part of unbound armys. If the are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the formation" page 121
Then let's look at battle forged armys " a player using the battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into detachments. Detachments are made up to f units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two troops under ts; another might require that only units from codex orks be included. As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each detachment grants it's own command benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle" page 117
A battleforged army therefore is made of detachments and formations are a type of detachment, so therefore a army can include formations and remain battleforged, though reading the combined arms detachment it does say
"Objective secured: all troops units from this detachment have the objective secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit t is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit has this special rule" page 122
So we are both semi right, I am right in formations being a type of detachment instead of the other way around but I am wrong in thinking it's being a battle forged army that grants objective secured instead of the combined arms detachment

No it's only the 2 Detachments that grant it, Combined Arms or Allied; plus of course any detachment that says in its description it does, but right now just those 2. You can be Battleforged with an 'Ork Horde detachment' but you still won't ojb sec. Instead you'll get other benefits.

[daboarder]

Skyblight grants it to its inherent gargoyles

[Dyemor]

Cheers for this post. Was just looking at getting into a Tyranid army at Christmas this year, so some good starting points already on what to buy.

[TheDeathJester]

I think you are very weak on Synapse.
If I removed your present Synapse creatures during a game, the rest of your army will tear itself apart.
Add more Warriors/ Zoanthropes/ Tyrants. :)