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View Full Version : GW Business Analysis Video (MUST SEE)



Bigred
10-22-2014, 11:21 AM
OH Boy - these are going to be popular.

via BuyPainted (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsVtZ8SRClYf4tPzy8HjNtA)
Be sure to watch all of the 3rd video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i09Afw85cOc&index=3&list=UUsVtZ8SRClYf4tPzy8HjNtA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovBkR1YtzbI&list=UUsVtZ8SRClYf4tPzy8HjNtA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdqP-XnWHkw&list=UUsVtZ8SRClYf4tPzy8HjNtA


We are all eagerly awaiting the next installment...

Also, I have added the poll to get the BoLS readers opinion whether GW miniatures are for collectors or gamers.

40kGamer
10-22-2014, 12:06 PM
Very reasonable video set. Not pure doom and gloom just that current policies will ultimately lead to doom and gloom. Can't say that I disagree.

DWest
10-22-2014, 04:16 PM
I said "yes" to the poll question, but with a major caveat-- I'm buying only the models right now anyway, as 7th edition has been so sloppy that the local playerbase has either moved on or uses a set of house rules so extensive that the official rulebook doesn't even show up at the table anymore.

Wishful thinking, I know, but could we get ForgeWorld to stage a takeover of the actual rules side of the business?

bravofour
10-22-2014, 04:49 PM
Owning several armies that have nothing to do with GW, but other systems, I can honestly say once the rules disappeared I quit buying. (Void for example) sure I bought the odd piece after the rules vanished, but that was more to finish up a squad, in the hopes that one day I'd be able to dust them off and use them again.
I also own a butt load of historical miniatures from many different manufactures. The advantage to historical is that they can be used for many different game systems. In the case of GW, fantasy might be able to pull this system jump off, but it would be situational at best. In the case of 40k the miniatures are so specific to the 40k universe that no other rule set could use them. With the lack of ability to use them to tell a story on the table, or support the the 40k universe as a whole the model line would die. My case in point for this would be Squats. Once they were removed, you had a few die yards that continue to collect them, but the majority of players simply moved on. If the rule system dies, we as a group would abandon the model line as well. Sure you'd have a few die hards, but not enough to support a company like GW.

Christopher Szynkowski
10-22-2014, 04:59 PM
With very few and small exceptions (mostly to use for dnd) my answer is an absolute no. I am a gamer first, collector second. The entire draw for me getting into 40k was the fact that these were models that you could do something with other then paint and put on a shelf.

Houghten
10-22-2014, 05:10 PM
I've bought multiple models I have no intention of using in-game, but if I wasn't going to use any of my models in-game then I'd go back to Revell kits.

As to the videos: too video; didn't watch

Tyrendian
10-22-2014, 05:28 PM
easy to answer for me - we stopped playing, so I stopped buying... may get a nice kit or two in the future, but nothing on any serious scale as far as I can predict the future right now...

Lord Krungharr
10-22-2014, 05:48 PM
I also voted no. Some GW models are awesome, but plenty of companies have awesome models these days. The one big reason I do like 40k so much is I can customize my models and still have them be acceptable to other gamers; I'm not certain other game systems permit that at all.

But if they ever do just go under, I will probably still have my favorite 40k models, and will still be able to play a game from the old rules, or we can just make up whatever fixes we want or need...you know, like the tournaments do.

ti9999
10-22-2014, 06:31 PM
GW must be delusional if they think they are a company that produces "Collectible" models. Sure, they have really nice looking big models once in a while, but when the vast majority of your models are 1- 3 inches tall, that's not something a collector would consider displayable. They're not NECA, McFarlane Toys, SHMonsterarts, or any one of half a dozen Japanese figure companies that produce large, highly detailed, articulated figures or static statuettes. Sure they've got really good looking models compared to other tabletop game companies, but compared to other collectible toy and figure making companies, they just don't compare. GW needs to wake the f*ck up and realize that without the game, they've got nothing. Their models are not going to sell themselves, especially at their current price tags in the present economy. They don't seem to understand that at all. If they want to recover they've got to economize. No more throwing money around on pointless things like unnecessary lawsuits. Scale prices back to let the potential customer know that they realize money is tight and they want to make it easier for us. I think they'd see their sales improve if they scaled everything back 10% or offered discounts once in a while. But they seem completely unresponsive to changes in their customer base. GW isn't selling food that people have to buy in order to survive and can get away with upping the price a little bit every month because they know customers need to eat. They're selling a luxury product that is not a basic necessity to life. There is a point where a customer will not pay for it, and for many people that point has come and gone. GW isn't totally screwed yet, but once they get to the point where a larger majority of their current customers refuse to buy, they're going to go under really fast. And as much as we hate the company, a lot of us love the game, and really don't want to see that happen. At least I don't anyway.

Ghostofman
10-22-2014, 08:14 PM
I already don't buy a model till I've got the rules and know if it's even worth my time and money. No rules, no model purchase, doesn't matter how cool it looks, my time, money, and shelf space is limited enough as it is.

Opus Krokus
10-22-2014, 08:39 PM
Nope. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

I already have a hard enough time justifying my purchases to my wife. I can't imagine I would put up a fight if the rules went away.

I would be VERY sad, but that would be that.

daboarder
10-22-2014, 08:40 PM
maybe one or two,every so often they release something like the "plague drones" that I buy just for the model. But thats very few and very far between

clively
10-22-2014, 11:31 PM
I have around 30k points of models covering just about every 40k army they sell.

If the game went away, I'd sell those off and play something else. Yes, the models are cool. Yes I've spent an unknown amount of time assembling and painting them. But at the end of the day, I'm in this "hobby" because I like playing strategy games on a table top against a live opponent.

BeardMonk
10-23-2014, 01:48 AM
As most people on this thread have said, I buy models because collect and paint a army which I intent to PLAY A GAME with. If GW were to stop producing rules then as far as im concerned, that would be the end of Warhammer and I would move my time 100% into Warmachine/Hordes rather than the 50/50 split I currently have. I would keep a number of my figures to use in Patherfinder RPG but a large percentage of them would be sold off.

I can’t see how not having a game system in place would do anything to help GW. They cant attract more customers without an actual game to use their figures in. And most vets would seriously consider their position if there was no longer an “official” game for them to play. Quite simply, if they stop producing rules/games, the company would be viewed as dead to most people.

miteyheroes
10-23-2014, 04:36 AM
I've been collecting & converting Adeptus Mechanicus and Knights for several years now, since before GW started making rules for them. Would I continue collect & convert them? Yes.

Arkhan Land
10-23-2014, 06:55 AM
I play about once a week, which is about how often I buy/paint/finish a new unit. If the game itself was gone (somethign I dont think will ever completely happen) I guess i'de still want to build the models but only if there were some other medium for me to hold onto, ide want some sort of comic/graphic novels series or an animated show/movie. Something to keep the universe big. realistically speaking I know a lot of people that have spent two or three times more money and time on Gundam models with no desire to play any type of tabletop game with them (there are a few decent rule-sets for certain scales). Every time they explain them to me they know all the episodes and their features. Im not totally against this sort of way of modeling building certainly ive built many a half-track sherman or panzer for no discernable gameplay use but quite frankly this is what sets 40k apart
this is what makes 40k/any decent game system better than historical/fanatic collections

Caitsidhe
10-23-2014, 07:37 AM
As far as I am concerned they have already stopped producing working rules so I kicked the habit and moved on to other games.

Rory Wildwards
10-23-2014, 10:20 AM
Voted yes. As i see it i dont play, i collect to build, convert, paint. I really enjoy those aspects of the hobby. Id like to think ill maybe get a game at somepoint but honestly i dont expect to(dont have the time). In the middle of two different types of SW armies and enjoying it. Proper hobbyist, with a side of armchair general and theory math hammerer.

Erik Setzer
10-23-2014, 01:22 PM
No game would mean no purchases for me. I can find nice kits in plenty of places. I buy GW stuff to play games. My purchases are often driven by whether I can actually use something in a game. Sure, sometimes I buy something because it looks cool, like a Morkanaut, or Thunderwolf Cavalry, but I find uses for them in-game, too. For example, I can't see myself using Nagash much, which is why I've held off so far on spending over a hundred dollars on that model. (One guy wanted to play against Nagash bad and offered to loan me his half-built model - I ended up being loaned the store's painted model instead - and that's the only time I've used Nagash. He just changes the play style to something that feels "meh" for me.) Blood Knights look great, but aren't really that great in game terms and are horribly expensive.

Some models can't be really altered that much, so why would I even want to buy so many of them? Like Ork Boyz. Or basic Space Marines. Most WFB units, I certainly wouldn't buy more than one box of models.

I know GW has been moving more toward trying to promote itself as a "miniatures company" and not a "games company." It's stupid. The games push the miniatures. You can find a minority of people who would (or do) buy GW stuff without playing the games, but they are such a minority that the company would swiftly go bankrupt if it dropped the games.

Most of the people who come into the local Games Workshop store, if they stick around long enough to be given any kind of demonstration of the hobby, they're more likely to get into it when they try the games and/or see people playing the games. A rare person sees the models and wants to just paint them, sure. But they are few and far between compared to the ones who come in, get interested in the games, and pick up a core set.

If they stopped that stupid direction and remembered what build up the company they have, they could go back to expanding, but if they keep up with the current business model, they might start losing more market share. I hope a new CEO will recognize the problem. Heck, they could easily recognize it if the current management - not just CEO, but everyone involved in the major decisions - even bothered seeing what their customers were interested in or cared what they were thinking.

jonsgot
10-23-2014, 01:44 PM
This board is gamer heavy, but they are upsetting the collectors just as fast as the gamers. GW took a low effort get rich faster strategy. Lots of people buy models for all sorts of reasons. Reducing your target market only ever has one impact on revenue.

All low effort get rich quick investments go the same way. I'm so glad I didn't invest in to GW.

DWest
10-23-2014, 01:46 PM
My thought is this: Games Workshop is currently being stupid and short-sighted. GW is in trouble. Warhammer 40k is not in trouble; the IP is too large, and too popular to be left to rot, and so I'm holding on to my armies until somebody (whether GW or an outsider) comes and fixes things, and in the meantime I'm willing to spend my hobby dollar on releases that look worthwhile.

There's also the slight caveat that at the rate I manage to get things painted, it's entirely possible that the rules side of things will be fixed before I actually have 2000 points of stuff that matches.

kellyj
10-23-2014, 11:37 PM
GW claims to produce collectible models.
The only problem with this claim is the models they produce are inferior in quality and scope to anything that an actual model company makes.
Just compare the trusty old Rhino to any APC made by Revel, AMT/ERTL (easily the entry level in the model market where your 8 year old boy usually starts his hobby at). GWs thick plastic, poor fit, simple details usually pre-etched into the main body, and very few parts. Then you look at an AMT/ERTL kit. Thinner plastic giving a better fit and finish, detailed parts that the modeler gets to add IF and where he actually wants (perhaps making a replica of an actual vehicle he operated), and having dozens (sometime hundreds) of parts.
Now compare the price. 37 USD +tax for the Rhino vs 9-20 USD depending on which APC kit your looking at getting.
If you had the models in an actual hobby store side by side AND the game of 40K itself did not exist...which one would you be spending your hard earned dollar on? And lets not even go into the quality and price of the required Hobby accessories (paints, brushes, glue, tools, etc).
GAMES workshop is a game company. The GAME is the only reason the models were ever produced in the first place. Models would sell poorly...until the newest Codex gave them a power boost. Then that once loathed and never bought model became THE unit that everyone had to have. Entire editions changed the GAME flavor. From the super soldier Terminator spam to Rhino Rush in a single printing. Hundreds of dollars (and hobby hours) of plastic would be shelved while hundreds of new dollars were spent on the latest hotness because the GAME changed. Entire armies were shelved while hundreds of dollars would be spent on a new army because the Codex changed (anyone remember how Grey Knights went from being that weird and rarely seen, but always beautifully painted army, whose owner we both admired for his skill but pitied for his last place finishes to being a quick 3 color tabletop ready beating face everywhere that you couldn't go to an event and NOT face at least twice?
Not because the models changed (though they did, made of cheaper plastic by doubled in price) but because the GAME rules made them THE top army for a period of time.
And so here we are. GAMES workshop not only ignoring, but even refuting what the very first word of their company name is. Claiming to be a collectable hobby company, yet making substandard models when compared to the actual collectable market. And all through this treating a very large and loyal customer base with disdain and greed. More and more people are leaving the GAME while fewer are picking it up. GW is in a death spiral and they refuse to recognize it.
Maybe if they did sell out to Hasbro it can be saved, assuming Hasbro got a few old-time 40K players on staff to reset the Grim Dark back to 3rd or 4th (but certainly not beyond 5th) Edition. More likely Hasbro will see the declining customer base and decide (correctly) they want to continue as a toy company and not a GAME/model company.

miteyheroes
10-24-2014, 01:53 AM
Having now watched the 3rd video, they basically say that the change is from seeking new players to selling collectible models to existing customers?

Which is hilarious, I remember that for ages people complained that GW only focussed on new players, not existing ones...

DWest
10-24-2014, 06:34 AM
GW claims to produce collectible models.
The only problem with this claim is the models they produce are inferior in quality and scope to anything that an actual model company makes.
Just compare the trusty old Rhino to any APC made by Revel, AMT/ERTL (easily the entry level in the model market where your 8 year old boy usually starts his hobby at).
Actually, having built Revell, AMT, and GW kits, I have remained exclusively with GW, because their quality and fit are an order of magnitude better than the others. I would go so far as to say my worst GW build (a Chaos Landraider that sat for years in shop, near the heater vents) was still easier to finish than the best offering from Revell, Monogram, or AMT.

Now Tamiya for example makes a better kit, but they go too far in the opposite direction imo; lots and lots of extremely fine parts that make me feel like a bomb technician with all the fancy lights and clips and tools needed to hold the model fast so I can place this lever the thickness of a cat's whisker where it needs to go.

Mr Mystery
10-24-2014, 06:56 AM
Actually, having built Revell, AMT, and GW kits, I have remained exclusively with GW, because their quality and fit are an order of magnitude better than the others. I would go so far as to say my worst GW build (a Chaos Landraider that sat for years in shop, near the heater vents) was still easier to finish than the best offering from Revell, Monogram, or AMT.

Now Tamiya for example makes a better kit, but they go too far in the opposite direction imo; lots and lots of extremely fine parts that make me feel like a bomb technician with all the fancy lights and clips and tools needed to hold the model fast so I can place this lever the thickness of a cat's whisker where it needs to go.

That's an interesting point.

We also have to consider that GW kits are designed to not only look nice, but be easily assembled, and sturdy enough to stand up to regular transport. Proper proper collectors models are designed to look nice, be ridiculously detailed, and then just somewhere looking spangly.

Totally different design ethos involved.

Ed Quicksall
10-24-2014, 11:24 AM
I have already stopped buying GW models.