do you use mutilators?

[ChaosChosenMarine1994]

I like the flavor behind chaos space marine mutilators, but everything they do, obliterators can do at a distance. Do you use them? Why or why not?

[daboarder]

Unfortunately they only really work in two builds.


1) solo mutilator with MoN for disruption, but you rarely have the points for this and its pretty slow.
2) 3 of them with MoN in a Land Raider with some characters.

Any thing but MoN is kinda pointless because of their two wounds and lack of access to the Icons that boost the other marks

[Lord Krungharr]

I could see Khorne versions working well with Kharn and a Sorcerer there. Drop Kharn out one door, and the other guys out another. They get extra attacks, and I thought they could take an Icon of Wrath and so their power swords/mauls would be +1 Str on the charge too. That could really shred a bunch of enemy units.

Just choose your targets carefully and they can do nicely, especially if the sorcerer (unmarked please) can get Endurance on them.

Slaaneshi, wouldn't be terrible either, but they just seem more Khornate to me.

[daboarder]

I could see Khorne versions working well with Kharn and a Sorcerer there. Drop Kharn out one door, and the other guys out another. They get extra attacks, and I thought they could take an Icon of Wrath and so their power swords/mauls would be +1 Str on the charge too. That could really shred a bunch of enemy units.

Just choose your targets carefully and they can do nicely, especially if the sorcerer (unmarked please) can get Endurance on them.

Slaaneshi, wouldn't be terrible either, but they just seem more Khornate to me.

dies to the prevalent S8+ far too easily

[Mr Mystery]

Unfortunately they only really work in two builds.


1) solo mutilator with MoN for disruption, but you rarely have the points for this and its pretty slow.
2) 3 of them with MoN in a Land Raider with some characters.

Any thing but MoN is kinda pointless because of their two wounds and lack of access to the Icons that boost the other marks

Stupid question in all likelihood - but does the advent of the Chaos Spartan give them any help?

[Tokunator]

They can't take Icons, so that is already a point against them.

Furthermore, they are unable to make Sweeping Advances being Slow and Purposeful, so even if you actually win combat and force the opponent to flee, they would not be able to run them down. I guess that is strike 2.

The only available transport is the Land Raider, which is rather expensive without Power of the Machine Spirit. So you are just adding to an already expensive unit. Strike 3?

The Spartan does not really help them that much, as they are limited to 3 models per unit. Strike 4.

Slaanesh is rather pointless as the majority of good weapon options make them Ini 1, so there is no point in having a +1 Ini bonus. Khorne looks ok, until you get hit by meltaguns. All in all, Nurgle seems to be the way to go.

But on the whole, I do not see a single valid reason to take those guys. Heck, I'd rather have Terminators and they are already not that great.

[Anggul]

I don't see much point in their existence when Terminators do pretty much the same thing but also have guns (including combi-weapons) and aren't slow and purposeful. They still can't sweep, but they can run. They also aren't bothered about instant death so aren't forced to be nurgle like Mutilators and Obliterators are.

[daboarder]

Stupid question in all likelihood - but does the advent of the Chaos Spartan give them any help?

Its a point against them as you can then get more from the more terminators instead

[Saint_Anger]

I've never seen anyone using them at my local club. They are slow and can't get Icon to boost them. I wish they can be taken in 5 models per squad. If there is a chance, I will make 3 nurgle mutilators and infiltrate (whether by Ahriman, Huron, or random warlord trait). That could get them into some close distance to charge in turn 2, provided that they survive the fire shot at them.

[Venomlust]

I thought the Dreadclaw would make great use of a 3 Mutilator squad + HQ, but of course it's only a dedicated transport for CSM/Chosen/dreadnoughts. *extremely loud, wet, obnoxious fart noise + thumbs down*

[jenkatron]

Slaanesh is arguably the WORST mark you could give them, completely useless in all combats against anything not I3/4/5, including any vehicles - expensive waste of points, unless your meta contains nothing but marines.

Just not as good as other options already elsewhere in the dex IMO

Mutilator pluses are : varied weapons, fear (wow!) and a single extra wound

Negatives vs similar (ie termie) : low LD 8, no guns whatsoever, can't run, get expensive if you try to protect them from instakill with MoN, max of 3, FAR LESS attacks than the termies, vulnerable to force weapons and s8-10, zero flexibility outside of cc in weapon loadout. Most importantly - no dedicated transport raider, so it costs you an elite and a HS choice cause anything other than a raider and they pretty much are not getting into CC. I NEVER have spare HS choices in any of my CSM lists, multiple packs of oblits / maulers are almost auto picks, and havocs and vindicators are occasional (rarely have slots spare!)

I'm not willing to pay 30% extra on top of terminators (which are still over costed at that price!) just so I get to pick a cc weapon. Bring terminators with a selection and use the other bodies as shields for the weapons you need to get into combat

[daboarder]

I thought the Dreadclaw would make great use of a 3 Mutilator squad + HQ, but of course it's only a dedicated transport for CSM/Chosen/dreadnoughts. *extremely loud, wet, obnoxious fart noise + thumbs down*

It's also a FA slot, so yes you could do that

[mysterex]

IMO they're butt ugly and so I wouldn't give them table space. Funnily enough I like obliterators and despite the similar aesthetic think they look a lot better.

In terms of function, as other have said, there's a lot better ways of getting the sorts of attacks they have onto the table.

[Denzark]

I had a nasty surprise from them. Seem to remember 3 in a LR with a Sorcerer Lord. It was an all-tzeentch CSM army. The lord was popping out Iron Arm or whatever makes him toughness lots. To add insult to injury he gibbed my warlord with a force weapon and then turned into a DP. The mutilators by then were in my face in the back field, giving him sufficient VPs to ignore all the steaming piles of goo my heldrakes left in his lines.

[daboarder]

there is no such thing as a "sorcerer lord" anymore, the old 3 wound version is dead, only the 2 wound version exists...that being said, they can be hilariously brutal with iron arm and a force stave

[Denzark]

I just remember a tzeentch idiot with at least T7 and a 4++ stomping around and turning into a DP.

[Venomlust]

It's also a FA slot, so yes you could do that

Yes, but I never would :P.

[Power Klawz]

Obliterators are better because you get something for the points you paid for them. They are guaranteed to get off at least one round of fire before they are blasted off the table. They are just as easily blasted off the table as Mutilators, and require the same considerations to keep alive.

Obliterators are also better because they have capabilities in both the shooting and assault phases. Their guns are great against all targets and they rock powerfists with a fair number of attacks. They can threaten any target at any time.

Mutilators conceptually pose a question of risk vs. reward in that they're significantly better in close combat than obliterators and close combat has a bit more finality to it than shooting. Obliterators can plink away a few wounds here and there leaving the target unit still able to fire back, albeit at reduced capacity. Mutilators on the other hand functionally shut their target unit down once they reach close combat. The unit can't shoot while its fighting them and will either be wiped out or forced to flee eventually. (Barring a few exceptional units that can beat mutilators in close combat.)

Within the CSM army list there are several units that fill a similar role. This role being "tough, fighty, compact." These are obliterators, mutilators and terminators. They are tough because it takes an inordinate amount of anti-infantry fire to take them down, and they can even stand up to anti-tank weaponry. Fighty because they punch things in the face and compact because they have relatively small unit sizes (due to high cost.)

The other two units besides mutilators also fall into the "shooty" category in some fashion or another as well. The key differences being that obliterators are the shootiest but the least capable in close combat due to a lack of melee weapon options. (they're all unwieldy and so they can be taken advantage of by units with a larger volume of attacks and higher initiative.) Terminators are the most flexible but also the least dedicated of the three. You can tool them up for close combat but they'll never be as effective against as many targets as mutilators due to their static weapon loadouts. They're decently shooty but nowhere near as dangerous as obliterators. They can be equipped to do a little from column A and a little from column B, but they won't truly excel in either task. Also all of this flexibility comes at a substantial cost, making them a less bargain driven decision the more gear, marks and icons you throw on them. Mutilators lack any shooty capability whatsoever, but can kill anything in close combat at any given time. They can wade through hordes of orks with lightning claws, punch out high toughness targets with mauls or tear apart land raiders with chainfists. This would be a great ability if it could be employed reliably, alas it is very hard to do this against a canny opponent, especially one with interceptor weapons.

The internet darling applications for terminators and obliterators are pretty boring but seemingly effective. Obliterators are invariably Nurgle marked and come in pairs or single models, generally you see 2 units of 2 in competitive lists. They are then employed to eliminate specific targets the turn they arrive from deep strike and then stick around as long as they can being a general nuisance in the enemy's backfield. They are pretty great at this.

Terminators are less popular but are generally employed in minimum termicide units with combi-weapons. 3 guys with combi-meltas pop in behind your favorite vehicle and make modern art, then they run around trying to fight something while being shot to death. They are pretty good at this and can get lucky and go on a tear if your opponent doesn't devote enough firepower to eliminating them after they do their initial dirty work.

Mutilators don't have a standard configuration because the internet hates them. Were I to come up with a unit I'd think would have the highest chance of success it would probably be Nurgle marked units of 3 mutilators deep striking as close as daemonicly possible to something they want to kill. Preferably in conjunction with another unit lining up a charge against the same target that turn. The timing is nearly impossible to get right though since reinforcements arrive randomly and its unlikely your other units will be in the right place at the right time. You could likely allay this concern by employing fast units like spawn and bikers though, which if I was going to use mutilators is something I'd probably tailor the list for. A rushing, beatdown list with bikers, jump infantry and flying MCs (maybe some maulerfiends, hell lets get kinky) with a unit or two of mutilators to act as troubleshooters later in the game. They'd basically play goalie and try to deep strike behind the enemy lines to limit avenues of tactical retreat.

Unfortunately mutilators are butt ugly so I haven't bought any.

[Denzark]

An excellent well considered post PK. It doesn't take into account some of the options from IA13 - I'm thinking of Raptor, or Kharybdis drop.

[daboarder]

fair post, one point of contention though, A combo-plasma will do more damage to most vehicles than combi-melta if you shoot rear armour (and why wouldn't you) they also have the more flexible 12 maximum threat range which is important on DS unit with no mitigation

[Lord Krungharr]

Love me some combi-plas Terminators. The Black Legion Despair guys upgrade would be good for deepstriking Terminators.

But for Mutilators, I guess bringing them in with Abaddon in a Dreadclaw now could be pretty good. They can get far up the table Turn 1, attack turn 2, and get Preferred Enemy from Abaddon, who could probably take on some other unit by himself, though usually I don't like to split up those units too much. But those models' faces really are just not too appealing visually, though I kinda like their claws.

[Power Klawz]

fair post, one point of contention though, A combo-plasma will do more damage to most vehicles than combi-melta if you shoot rear armour (and why wouldn't you) they also have the more flexible 12 maximum threat range which is important on DS unit with no mitigation

That's a good point. I guess I was just fixated on popping land raiders because they are the best things to pop with termicide units. Most everything else will take a worse beating from rapid firing plasma in the rear, this is true. It also lends them more flexibility in target selection, maybe your opponent didn't load up on land raiders (silly person) and instead has a monstrous creature or some TEQ units. Also deep striking to within 6 inches of your target without mishap is a real gamble, having a 12 inch threat bubble is much more comfortable.

Considering the above deathstar-ish application I feel it goes contrary to the strengths (yes they have those) of the mutilators. I really envision them more as an autonomous, unsupported element that is meant to survive long enough behind enemy lines to cause some real havoc on its own. Paring them up with abaddon and dropping more points on deployment options just doesn't seem in keeping with their intended purpose. I feel like terminators are a far more suitable option since they allow for far more options and don't have such limited squad sizes.

I feel like terminators are the "up the gut" unit that you cram into a land raider with a tooled up lord. Mutilators are more of the monster hiding in the closet waiting to pop out at just the wrong moment for your opponent. Adding extra cost to them and having them pal around with Abaddon as a baby sitter sort of defeats the purpose of the unit. They're supposed to handle business on their own and be a frightening, compact distraction for your opponent. Again they're not super good at this due to the annoying habit of well played shooting armies (which is all armies since the end of 5th edition) having things like interlocking grids of fire and bubble wrap units and what have you.