Archon Weapons

[Just_Me]

I have a question to pose to the community that is somewhere in between a rules, modeling, and tactics question so I'm goin to pose it here. Specifically, how can/should I arm my new Dark Eldar Archon?

Strict reading of the unit entry shows that he has a CC weapon and pistol and may replace his CC weapon with a Huskblade and his pistol with a Blaster or Blast pistol, he may also chose from the Melee Weapons list which replace his Melee weapon and this is where it gets murky. Strictly speaking if he takes a Huskblade he would have to replace it (the only available melee weapon) in order to take, say, an Agoniser, he can never have both. However, according to the entry in Force Requisition on the tablet codex he can take both. This might appear to be shaky ground at best given the wording of the rules but strictly speaking the Succubus official model with Aconite Glaive and Agoniser is illegal due to the exact same issues in her unit entry, and yet the model itself pretty clearly indicates what the intent was.

Having said all of this, my desire is to equip my Archon with both Agoniser and Huskblade, mostly because it would look cool with the crossed arms pose of the new model, replacing the model's pistol with the doubled over Agoniser from the Wych kit. The issue is a) is this legal? And b) is there any viable reason to do it? The menace of instant death from the Huskblade is frightening to almost anything short of Space Marine commanders (losing ap2 sucks), while the flat wound on a 4+ (or re-roll against t3) is a great utility ability against everything else. Given that I'm equipping him a Phantasm Grenade Launcher he won't be completely losing all ranged attacks (and how scary are pistols or a single blaster anyway?). My thought is that he could run around bullying infantry squads with Phantasm Launchers and challenging squad leaders to rack up Soul Trap strength.

So my question is threefold:
1) can an Archon take both a Huskblade and an Agoniser?
2) aesthetically, how would the pose come across?
3) would it be effective at its intended purpose?

[Tokunator]

1) Barring an errata or FAQ, it would not be legal as his pistol is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon. So you could only change get one or the other.

2) No idea, that I guess having both weapons in front of the guy would block view to him and thus look slightly daft.

3) Archons are decidedly 'meh' in combat at best. Granted, they have a 2++ with the Shadowfield, but one '1' and they are generally dead as S6 is not that hard to come by for any non-Eldar, Tau or Guard character and against those you will dominate anyway. Having no AP2 weapon and S3 makes them expensive for little to no output. The whole Phantasm Grenade/Archangel of Pain/etc. weaponry is rubbish, as Marines and fearless units are immune to it. And that's 75% of all armies.

I actually run mine with blaster and Armour of Misery to sit in a Venom and hand out Ld penalties, whilst taking potshots. This costs 90 points, gives you a free slot for another Venom and even another free slot for a Venom if you spend 10 points on a Lhamae.

[Charon]

1) Barring an errata or FAQ, it would not be legal as his pistol is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon. So you could only change get one or the other.

This is wrong.
You could change the Huskblade for the melee CC weapon and the pistol for a Djin Blade (which is a CC weapon) and then proceed to change the Djin Blade for a Husk Blade :D
This is atm also the only way to get the weapon combination that is sold by GW on the Succubus.


2) aesthetically, how would the pose come across?

Depends on how you model it.


3) would it be effective at its intended purpose?

Depends on his support. In a unit of Sslyth or Grotesques he is quite durable and you can keep him cheap.

[Tokunator]

This is wrong.
You could change the Huskblade for the melee CC weapon and the pistol for a Djin Blade (which is a CC weapon) and then proceed to change the Djin Blade for a Husk Blade :D
This is atm also the only way to get the weapon combination that is sold by GW on the Succubus

So you'd be willing to pay a 30 points surcharge to get an Agoniser? And technically the Djin Blade does not appear in the melee weapons section, but in the artefacts section, so people might object to it counting as a melee weapon when exchanging weapons.

[Charon]

Nobody said something about "willing". I just pointed out that it is not impossible.
Technically the standard melee weapon also does not appear in the melee weapons section. By the same reasoning you could prevent any upgrade.

[Tokunator]

It is in the box on top of the melee weapon section in the wargear section.

[daboarder]

It is in the box on top of the melee weapon section in the wargear section.

Melee weapons are not limited to weapons from the melee section....they are weapons with the melee weapon type.....

[Haighus]

Melee weapons are not limited to weapons from the melee section....they are weapons with the melee special rule.....
Which technically includes pistols, what with them all counting as a close combat weapon.
So does that mean the pistol can be exchanged too?

[daboarder]

Which technically includes pistols, what with them all counting as a close combat weapon.
So does that mean the pistol can be exchanged too?

No, pistols are only Melee weapons in CC, they have their own class and they are a pistol at all other times


A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase.
Does list design and choice happen in the assault phase?

A pistol is weapon type PISTOL

A CCW is weapon MELEE.

See the difference?

[Houghten]

pistols are only Melee weapons in CC

Any melee weapon is only a Melee weapon in CC. This isn't DZC, it's not a shooting weapon with a range of 0.

[daboarder]

See that quote above....they only count a as a melee weapon in CC....do you build your list during the CC phase?

[Anggul]

The best way to go for a close combat Archon is just agoniser and shadowfield. Fairly cheap and killy. The huskblade is pretty rubbish really, if an enemy IC doesn't have 2+ armour they're probably more of a support IC and you'll likely beat them with an agoniser, and against everything else it's great to have the 4+ poison. Sadly the pointless poison nerf in 7th makes that not as great, but you're still going to kill a couple of marines a turn. Against MCs you want to be nailing them with your guns, not charging them.

I like to give mine a soul trap. Not because I think I'm actually going to get the bonus, but because everyone is just going to refuse the challenge to prevent me from gaining the +1 strength, so I'm essentially paying a small points cost to remove the enemy Sergeant or an IC from the fight, or I'm against Chaos Marines and I get +1 strength. Alternatively they accept the challenge because they have 2+ armour and I lose, which means I should never have been in that combat in the first place so I've probably been cornered and beaten regardless.

Archons are squad removers (accompanied by their own squad of course) rather than even footing fighters. Despite all of the fluff about Eldar being amazing fighters, you need immunity to instant death (or T5 to be immune to S8 anyway) and a good invulnerable save to be a good one-on-one fighter, so only Marines and Necrons can do it. For example, by all rights a Succubus should be able to beat a Space Marine Captain, but due to the pretty poor WS rules and general lack of 'skilled' characters being any good, the Captain is going to get a wound through the Succubus's 4++ (apparently not any better at dodging than any other Wych) and instant death her after the Succubus maybe scores a single wound with her archite glaive.

[Dave Mcturk]

wish the above was true !

i regularly play eldar v DE opponent - the archon is the deadliest thing in his army. with the new codex the archon can usually get into combat in turn 2 or 3.

the archon has killed in the last four games - a spidertarch with shard [failed I test to hit and run]. a mantletarch with sabre [threw a 2" jump - he made a 10" charge]. karandras ! [dont ask] and asurman [threw 1/2/3 for warlord traits - then in combat threw four ones out of five saves !]

the archon regularly makes upwards of ten shadowfield saves and has a maximum record of 18 ! [yes i know its anecdotal]

and just to add insult to injury a venom blade succubus saw off my warlord in the last game.

this new 'building' of combat drugs is certainly an army boost for DE !

[John Bower]

I would say that if their own list builder allows it then fine; it must the intent. Otherwise you can argue the Succy is a bit screwed as to the new model since she can't take both options she has either. My take is surely GW know what they 'intend' against what they have written. In the list entry for both it says 'may take items from' but in the items list it says 'may replace .... with' which causes a grey area. As in the army list entry for an Archon for example it would imply you don't 'replace' anything, but.. On the other hand the wargear entry says you do. Naughty; as I think the intention is really just they can 'take' them as implied by their list builder.

[daboarder]

I would say that if their own list builder allows it then fine; it must the intent. Otherwise you can argue the Succy is a bit screwed as to the new model since she can't take both options she has either. My take is surely GW know what they 'intend' against what they have written. In the list entry for both it says 'may take items from' but in the items list it says 'may replace .... with' which causes a grey area. As in the army list entry for an Archon for example it would imply you don't 'replace' anything, but.. On the other hand the wargear entry says you do. Naughty; as I think the intention is really just they can 'take' them as implied by their list builder.


HAHAHA Thats like quoting WD for rules....what did you also think SW had access to grey knight units? Haha