Unbound/Broken Models

[Gryphon]

It seems there is a discussion in my meta regarding Unbound models. While the upcoming unbound tournament allows for "anything" technically. It would seem that many are still up in arms over allowing 30k models, including Primarchs. While I can understand the fundamentals, i'ts a 40k game not a 30k game, Unbound could be one of the few opportunities to play my Primarch since no one around plays 30k. I am, in a round about way, being accused of trying to find an end-all, be-all model/unit to win games when, in reality, I am just wanting to be competitive. Considering the venue of the tournament is unbound, that also entails unlimited cheese. I don't have any way of creating a cheese list, and I don't have a ton of models to choose form to use.
I play Iron Hands and just have a handful of most unit types. I was wondering: Should I just chalk it up to player paranoia and play anyway. Not bother because I don't have a ton of models to compete with? It has been my estimation that the game is a shooting game so the more models and shots you have the better. Any thoughts or opinions. I just want to get an idea of what the rest of the community thinks, since GW can't make a balanced game and everyone else seems way too particular about certain models units. Thanks for your time.

Gryphon

[Katharon]

If you're playing a 40K Unbound tournament, then use 40K models. Primarchs are within the demesne of 30k, not 40k. If you own the primarchs and the books as well, then you should know just how durable and dangerous those characters are.

[bubbles15]

Katharon won't like this, but to be honest, it simply doesn't matter.

If you want to play a primarch in your games, why not. They're beautiful models, with amazing rules.

That's the point of an unbound game. To field what you want to, not what your opponent wants you to. Who cares if it's 30K or 40K. Field Ferrus Manus alongside two knights and a Voidraven. Just enjoy the game. That's all that matters.

It does raise an issue that concerns me somewhat: 40K is a game. There's no 30K and 40K, it's just a game. Play what you like, make friends over the gaming table. Heck, have a blast. Kick your shoes off. Have fun.

It's a *game*.

[Brother Daedulus]

Katharon won't like this, but to be honest, it simply doesn't matter.

If you want to play a primarch in your games, why not. They're beautiful models, with amazing rules.

That's the point of an unbound game. To field what you want to, not what your opponent wants you to. Who cares if it's 30K or 40K. Field Ferrus Manus alongside two knights and a Voidraven. Just enjoy the game. That's all that matters.

It does raise an issue that concerns me somewhat: 40K is a game. There's no 30K and 40K, it's just a game. Play what you like, make friends over the gaming table. Heck, have a blast. Kick your shoes off. Have fun.

It's a *game*.

EXACTLY. See this guy is someone I can like in this cesspit of hate that's called BoLS.

[Charon]

That's the point of an unbound game. To field what you want to, not what your opponent wants you to. Who cares if it's 30K or 40K. Field Ferrus Manus alongside two knights and a Voidraven. Just enjoy the game. That's all that matters.

As the game takes two to play and your opponents should also "have fun" in a "game" you might reconsider your egocentic view where all others just exist to make your experience great no matter how they feel about the issue?

[John Bower]

My 2 penneth is that it's up to the Tournament Organiser, if s/he allows it then it's fine, if not proxy the mini as a normal Chapter Master or whatever.

[Katharon]

As the game takes two to play and your opponents should also "have fun" in a "game" you might reconsider your egocentic view where all others just exist to make your experience great no matter how they feel about the issue?

This is the point I was driving my comment toward.

- - - Updated - - -


It does raise an issue that concerns me somewhat: 40K is a game. There's no 30K and 40K, it's just a game.

They are actually two different games. You can play the Horus Heresy, which is what people mean when they say "30K" in reference to the time setting and the rules, army lists, and scenarios as laid out in the Forgeworld Horus Heresy rule books. You can also decide to play "40k," normal Warhammer 40,000, using the rules as dictated in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook from Games Workshop. They are two distinct games, set within the same lore universe.

To use models and rules from 30k in 40k would be quite a bit much, since the rules and special rules for units in 30K are inherently stronger and more powerful than most basic rules in 40K.

[Mr Mystery]

Breaks down to Spirit of the Game - which is mutable.

If the tournament embraces a fully unbound, take what thou wilt approach - then everything is fair game.

If the tournament wants to issue specific, set army lists for each race - then that's what you stick to.

And everything in between. If in doubt, ask the TO if they're OK with it. But once the parameters are set, stay within them, and don't complain. After all, it's a single organised event, and ultimately it is not run for your gaming pleasure alone.

[Gryphon]

Thanks everyone. I understand those, who reason for 30k/40k to be seperate, but fail to understand why they're so against a single primarch when it is clear there are other models out there than can easily kill him (i.e. Wraith Knight, C'tan, etc) that exist in 40k. In casual games we in this area typically leave the cheese out. It's just funny that people are okay with some cheese and not others.

[Mr Mystery]

There's little that can easily kill a Primarch....

[DaveTycho]

They are actually two different games. You can play the Horus Heresy, which is what people mean when they say "30K" in reference to the time setting and the rules, army lists, and scenarios as laid out in the Forgeworld Horus Heresy rule books. You can also decide to play "40k," normal Warhammer 40,000, using the rules as dictated in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook from Games Workshop. They are two distinct games, set within the same lore universe.

To use models and rules from 30k in 40k would be quite a bit much, since the rules and special rules for units in 30K are inherently stronger and more powerful than most basic rules in 40K.[/QUOTE]

People Saying that playing 40k and 30k are two different games don't seem to realise that that 30k USES 40k rules. While I agree that 30k armies are meant to play better against other 30k armies, there is no functional reason why 30k armies can't play against 40k armies either, just as long as you use the normal 40k force org charts for your 30k lists. When I eventually get my 30k list built up, I'm going to play it against other 40k lists.

On the main note of this topic, the tournament is supposed to be unbound right? So anything goes right? There is no offical ban list in this tournament right? On that point alone there is no reason why you can't Ferrus Manus and his Iron Hands to it.

[daboarder]

On the main note of this topic, the tournament is supposed to be unbound right? So anything goes right? There is no offical ban list in this tournament right? On that point alone there is no reason why you can't Ferrus Manus and his Iron Hands to it.

So I can bring my infinity models and shoot you in ARO?

No, unbound does not mean anything goes (it means you are unconstrained by detachments) and I can more than understand an unwillingness to face primarchs in a 40k game.....

[Katharon]

Ask the event organizer if it's OK to bring a 30K Primarch to the game. If he/she says no, then it's no, and if it's yes, then it's yes. Getting our opinions on here won't validate that process -- we can only give you our own personal opinion.

And *that* has already been duly expressed.

[SnakeChisler]

With regard to 30k the points costs aren't in line with 40k there are different rules and its a different game.


Unound for campaigns and such is fine letting it loose on a competition is a complete waste of time, 40k isn't that balanced as it is.

You can guarantee some nub with a bottomless pocket will turn up with 5 B'Elakor's or something equally as stupid


GW's interpretation of unbound - Release the mind from the constraints of force org to enrich your games

Local Nub's interpretation - How many completely OP units can I get into the points so I can wipe my opponent out in 1 turn

[Popsical]

Really? Do you own the HH books? Looking at them it appears the points for pretty much every vehicle plus their rules are identical to my IA versions.
Hmm. How strange.

[ShadowcatX]

Really? Do you own the HH books? Looking at them it appears the points for pretty much every vehicle plus their rules are identical to my IA versions.
Hmm. How strange.

The FAQ says the two games aren't balanced against one another.

[Da Gargoyle]

I understand Gryphons wish to try out his model and its rule set in a competative environment, but will it mesh fairly with the 40k scenario?

Will there be enough of a threat to the model in the game or will it simply stride through the battle field inviolate & invulnerable? And will it's points cost reflect the 40k universe. For example if the primarch is to Khaine as Khaine is to a Guardsman but the primarch is 60 points cheaper than Khaine, then there is a serious imbalance.

Also, as has been pointed out, unbound does not mean anything goes. Otherwise you might see a Challenger MK II with its computerised sights, stab, sabot discarding AP shells and high powered engine punch holes in the 40k leviathans while moving flat out. Or watch out for those Klingon War Birds, cloaked and shielded they can make a mess.

I'm sorry that last bit is over the top, but it is the same kind of thing, a unit from another rule set being introduced into this one. The difference is more radical but the act is the same.

Ultimately though, if the game organiser allows it, then fly, be free & enjoy.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Here's what the Horus Heresy FAQ has to say about the issue:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.)

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.