40K Ork Deffkoptas

[greatscottwhite]

Hi,

Could anyone help with a rules query regarding 40K Ork Deffkoptas.

According to the 7th ed rulebook pg 42;

Bombs may be used by swooping flying monstrous creatures and zooming flyers in the movement phase. However, the Ork Deffkoptas unit type is Jetbike.

Therefore, my query is:

How and when the Ork Deffkopta can use their bombs and if they can use any other shooting attack in addition to using bombs.

Thanks

[rushdrill]

Hi,

Could anyone help with a rules query regarding 40K Ork Deffkoptas.

According to the 7th ed rulebook pg 42;

Bombs may be used by swooping flying monstrous creatures and zooming flyers in the movement phase. However, the Ork Deffkoptas unit type is Jetbike.

Therefore, my query is:

How and when the Ork Deffkopta can use their bombs and if they can use any other shooting attack in addition to using bombs.

Thanks

No bombs, rockets are used in the shooting phase. If you could equip melta bombs they would be used as described in BRB the same as infantry.

[Houghten]

I emailed this very question to the FAQ people a while ago, but they have yet to put any of my questions - or, indeed, any of anybody's questions at all - in there.

In the absence of an official answer, here is my Most Sensible Interpretation:

As Fliers and Flying Monstrous Creatures can only drop Bombs while Zooming and Swooping respectively, so Jetbikes can only drop them while Turbo-Boosting. This means that they are dropped in the Shooting Phase instead of the Movement Phase, and is an exception to the rule that Bikes and Jetbikes may not fire weapons while Turbo-Boosting; in all other respects, they follow the rules as written.

[Charistoph]

I emailed this very question to the FAQ people a while ago, but they have yet to put any of my questions - or, indeed, any of anybody's questions at all - in there.

In the absence of an official answer, here is my Most Sensible Interpretation:

As Fliers and Flying Monstrous Creatures can only drop Bombs while Zooming and Swooping respectively, so Jetbikes can only drop them while Turbo-Boosting. This means that they are dropped in the Shooting Phase instead of the Movement Phase, and is an exception to the rule that Bikes and Jetbikes may not fire weapons while Turbo-Boosting; in all other respects, they follow the rules as written.

If speed was the only requirement, I would agree. However, the rules do require it to be in the Movement Phase, and not the Shooting Phase. In fact, it cannot be used if going Flat Out and prevents Flat Out usage. It also requires a certain movement type that avails the firing model to be Hard To Hit. The Jetbike has none of these.

Personally, I would say, you need to move the farthest you can move (12" in this case) and then perform the Bombing Run Attack following all the rules about the model's movement type.

As for the second question, the rest of the Bomb rules are quite clear on if another shooting attack is available.

[Houghten]

No bombs, rockets are used in the shooting phase. If you could equip melta bombs they would be used as described in BRB the same as infantry.

Nobody's talking about rokkits; the question is about Bigbommz, which have the Bomb type and are an upgrade for Deffkoptas (and not for Bommaz of any kind).


Personally, I would say, you need to move the farthest you can move (12" in this case)

This is why I call it my Most Sensible Interpretation, not my Least Deviation From Basic Rules Interpretation.

When you're trying to drop a bomb using only a 12" move, you need to position yourself in the preceding turn so that you can move over the intervening unit and still have 1" clear on the other side to finish your move. This inevitably results in one of two things: either you get charged because you're well within 12", or the enemy unit shuffles away to foul up your landing position and you never make it to the other side of them. In either case, the bomb will never actually get dropped.

[Charistoph]

This is why I call it my Most Sensible Interpretation, not my Least Deviation From Basic Rules Interpretation.

When you're trying to drop a bomb using only a 12" move, you need to position yourself in the preceding turn so that you can move over the intervening unit and still have 1" clear on the other side to finish your move. This inevitably results in one of two things: either you get charged because you're well within 12", or the enemy unit shuffles away to foul up your landing position and you never make it to the other side of them. In either case, the bomb will never actually get dropped.

Sensible it may be from a player's perspective, but considering how much it causes problems with other Bomb rules.

[Houghten]

If you want an interpretation that follows all the Bomb rules, try this one: Jetbikes cannot drop Bombs. A Deffkopta that purchases a Bigbomm has wasted 15 points on a fat load of nothing.

[SnakeChisler]

Bombs are used in the Movement Phase not the Shooting Phase
BRB

Kopter is equipped with a bomb therefore the rule applies
Codex Orks

Kopter can shoot 1 weapon during the Shooting Phase therefore he now gets to shoot his twin linked Rocket as well doesn't even need to be the same target as the bomb.

Codex trumps BRB (in terms of a kopter gets a bomb not just zooming flyers & Flying MC) apply the BRB rules as stated for bombing runs then shoot your rocket.

[Charistoph]

Kopter can shoot 1 weapon during the Shooting Phase therefore he now gets to shoot his twin linked Rocket as well doesn't even need to be the same target as the bomb.

Bombing Run rules (which the codex does not counter save the ability for said Jetbike to HAVE the Bomb) say that the Bombing Run counts as firing one of its weapons for the Shooting Phase. Jetbikes can fire one weapon per occupant, Deffkoptas have one occupant, so can only fire one weapon, so can fire its main gun OR make a Bombing Run, not both.

[John Bower]

Bombing Run rules (which the codex does not counter save the ability for said Jetbike to HAVE the Bomb) say that the Bombing Run counts as firing one of its weapons for the Shooting Phase. Jetbikes can fire one weapon per occupant, Deffkoptas have one occupant, so can only fire one weapon, so can fire its main gun OR make a Bombing Run, not both.

I do think it needs FAQ; the idea that the DK's can't fire their rokkits too is old hat; they were like that before but... they did drop the bomm during the turbo boost; and that was what changed in 6th as they used to do it in the 'movement' phase; but with 5th ed turbo boost moved to the shooting phase like running etc. so the Bomm got FAQ'd to make it as far as I can tell from FAQ the 'movement' phase back then too. And was done after it moved. So it looks like we follow the new Rule book on that; which against a competent player will make the bomm utterly useless. Shame I modelled a couple of nice ones for my DK's really. Hey ho, g getting used to my units getting raped lately. :(

[Charistoph]

I do think it needs FAQ; the idea that the DK's can't fire their rokkits too is old hat; they were like that before but... they did drop the bomm during the turbo boost; and that was what changed in 6th as they used to do it in the 'movement' phase; but with 5th ed turbo boost moved to the shooting phase like running etc. so the Bomm got FAQ'd to make it as far as I can tell from FAQ the 'movement' phase back then too. And was done after it moved. So it looks like we follow the new Rule book on that; which against a competent player will make the bomm utterly useless. Shame I modelled a couple of nice ones for my DK's really. Hey ho, g getting used to my units getting raped lately. :(

Add a Grot to the Bomb as a "second occupant"?

[Houghten]

I think that would be considered "modelling for advantage."

Unless GW did it on the official model, of course.

[John Bower]

I think that would be considered "modelling for advantage."

Unless GW did it on the official model, of course.

Would be a lot more than just 'modelling for advantage', it would be breaking the rules completely as a DK is merely a bike with 1 dude on.

[Charistoph]

I think that would be considered "modelling for advantage."

Unless GW did it on the official model, of course.


Would be a lot more than just 'modelling for advantage', it would be breaking the rules completely as a DK is merely a bike with 1 dude on.

Or it could be considered a sarcastic joke...

[John Bower]

Or it could be considered a sarcastic joke...

No sliding jokes under the radar; that's not playing cricket... :D

[Charistoph]

No sliding jokes under the radar; that's not playing cricket... :D

Never played cricket nor had it explained to me. Can't even play baseball that well, only did it for the sno cones we got after the game.

[40kGamer]

Never played cricket nor had it explained to me. Can't even play baseball that well, only did it for the sno cones we got after the game.

Sno Cones! All I ever scored after a game were noogies or wedgies!

[Dave Mcturk]

pretty sure the 'rule' was in the last ork codex. not at all surprised if its not in the new one !

[John Bower]

pretty sure the 'rule' was in the last ork codex. not at all surprised if its not in the new one !

It was in the old Ork dex, and had to be FAQ'd as the turbo boost changed from part of the movement phase to shooting; then it got faq'd to be that it got resolved at the end of the shooting phase but any unit you moved over in either phase if my memory serves me correctly.

[Power Klawz]

RAW interpretation is that Bigbomms are completely useless as they can't be used by the unit they are equipped on.

RAI interpretation is that you drop them in the movement phase exactly as you would from a flyer or FMC. You cannot shoot in the following shooting phase with the kopters other weapon. You do not have to move any specified amount or turbo boost or what have you, in fact since it counts as shooting in the shooting phase you cannot turbo boost in the same turn.

This is how I would play it and I wouldn't have any problems with someone else playing it this way, it is obviously the intention of the rule.

However, if you wanted to use strict RAW then they are useless, which in the absence of a FAQ would be fine too.

Adding arbitrary extra limitation to the usage seems pointless, they either work or they don't work, if they do work then they do so in the simplest fashion possible.

[Dave Mcturk]

since they are expensive in points terms, and 'cough' unreliable - not sure why anyone bothers - imo - they should come 'free' with each 'flying bike' - and only scatter one D6.

the 'old' ork codex rule is simple and should just be 'pasted' into the new codex. [as a special rule]

[Da Gargoyle]

I asked the same question earlier and generated the same sort of debate. Obviously, until FAQ come up with a result the matter must be dealt with by mutual consent. But here is my suggestion;

Movement: the Kopter uses its move to line up with the target unit, but can not get any closer than the usual 1".
In the shooting phase declare you are shooting with the bomb and turbo boost over the target treating it as a normal bombing run, except for:
The target gets to over watch on the kopter as per over watch rules;
If there are hits decide if the kopter will jink, (Yes I know about the new rule for jinking)
If no, resolve the hits
If the kopter is still flying because of a jink the bomb run is aborted but it still zooms the full 24"
If the kopter is still flying because the hits did no damage or there were no hits or shots fired the bomb is dropped.
It must move completely over the target and not end up above it
If the bomb scatters under the kopter, once it completes the turbo boost, it takes a hit at the strength of the bomb, (It is low flying after all)
As the kopter must move the full 24" turbo boost, see if it remains on the table. If it flys off its gone for the game, (Assume it was so much fun the pilot has gone back for another bomb :D). Counts as a casualty.

I think this complies with the orkiness of the situation, allows use of the weapon, and gives the other guy something to do.

Alternately Do the first bit above and use the turbo for the attack run, but instead of the over watch use the screamin descent rule from the codex.

Now imagine that with 3 Deff Koptas swooping in for a strike.

There are a couple of other options like doing it in the assault phase, which would allow you to get within one inch and then roll to see if you pass over the target. But I like the idea that the kopter might accidentally fly off the table.

[Charistoph]

A couple of problems...



Movement: the Kopter uses its move to line up with the target unit, but can not get any closer than the usual 1".
In the shooting phase declare you are shooting with the bomb and turbo boost over the target treating it as a normal bombing run, except for:

Bomb type weapons are not used in the Shooting Phase, even though they are a Ranged Weapon.


The target gets to over watch on the kopter as per over watch rules;

Why would they get to Overwatch? They are not being Charged. You do not Overwatch if he used his Shootas. This isn't Infinity.



If the kopter is still flying because the hits did no damage or there were no hits or shots fired the bomb is dropped.

Doesn't matter, the Bomb would not be able to be "fired" due to Jink causing the bike to Snap Fire, anyway.

[Dave Mcturk]

for the crazy points cost and the new 'mob rule' - surely everyone uses buggies instead of koptas ?

so the 'big bomb' argument is a bit moot ?

but seriously in the absence of better rules just use the 'old codex' the rule hasnt been superseded - just deleted ! :rolleyes:

[Da Gargoyle]

Hi Charistophe, vis a vis your comments;

In the first instance my postings were just intended to be a light hearted solution to the fact that there is no method for using a bomb with Kopters. Hence your original post.


Bomb type weapons are not used in the Shooting Phase, even though they are a Ranged Weapon.

Now as flyers make an actual bombing run and Kopters don't do this the most obvious approach is to use the turbo boost, which is actually done in the shooting phase.


Why would they get to Overwatch? They are not being Charged. You do not Overwatch if he used his Shootas. This isn't Infinity.

I threw that one in for the chaos of it all. After all, kopters are low flying machines and would be seen coming, so the same logic that applies to targets charging might apply to Kopters on a bombing run. But it doesn't have to be so. Not quite sure what the reference is to infinity though.


Doesn't matter, the Bomb would not be able to be "fired" due to Jink causing the bike to Snap Fire, anyway.

Perhaps it is not as clear as it should be but I did say
If the kopter is still flying because of a jink the bomb run is aborted but it still zooms the full 24" which would suggest either the Kopter is not flying or did not Jink.

Basically pending clarification by GW the most logical thing is to agree on some application. A bombing run in the movement phase would be impossible to implement on a 12" move as you wouldn't be able to pass over the target. And some times it's fun to implement local rules.

The alternative is Dave McTurk's suggestion that you adapt the rules from Ed6, hadn't read those myself though. :)

[Da Gargoyle]

Just come back from the city and while I was there I asked the lads in the GW city store about the Deff Kopters big bomb. The didn't know was the short answer. Initially they said the same as flyers until I pointed out the obvious. They then said in the movement phase which I pointed out was practically impossible. So they said turbo boost until I reminded them that that was in the shooting phase. After that and a bit of judicious reading they decided that you would need to do it with Turbo Boost and get agreement before the game.

[Katharon]

Sensible it may be from a player's perspective, but considering how much it causes problems with other Bomb rules.

Considering Houghten's solution to the problem, in lieu of no FAQ or Errata from GW, I'd take his solution over your adherence to a convoluted and poorly written rulebook.

[John Bower]

for the crazy points cost and the new 'mob rule' - surely everyone uses buggies instead of koptas ?

so the 'big bomb' argument is a bit moot ?

but seriously in the absence of better rules just use the 'old codex' the rule hasnt been superseded - just deleted ! :rolleyes:

I'm not getting rid of my DeffKoptas, least of all because I went to a fair bit of time and trouble whacking a Saw on one and painting up 2 bigbomms for the others. :( So I just use the simple solution; turbo boost the bomm like it used to be.

[Charistoph]

Considering Houghten's solution to the problem, in lieu of no FAQ or Errata from GW, I'd take his solution over your adherence to a convoluted and poorly written rulebook.

Not really. Considering the simple fact that his issue was the range moved, when it is the same length when Turbo-Boosting or Moving, it becomes a moo point. Only his allows him to pre-position the bombing run, first.

Also, consider that fact that Turbo-Boosting prevents any use of weapon during the same turn also applies. Also, using a Bomb prevents any movement in the Shooting Phase, indicates that they are incompatible in use.

[Da Gargoyle]

Not really. Considering the simple fact that his issue was the range moved, when it is the same length when Turbo-Boosting or Moving, it becomes a moo point. Only his allows him to pre-position the bombing run, first.

Not quite sure what you meant by that but the reason people are supporting the use of the turbo boost to drop the bomb is because of the extended movement range. Also as a technical side issue, the bomb is being dropped not fired so it could be argued that there has been no shooting involved. The only real issue is the fact that the 7 ed rules forgot about Ork Deff Koptas as another example of a rushed rules release.

I just saw the stat's for the bomb though, seems expensive for S4, AP5, assuming you dropped a couple how well do they work. Or do you only use them on selective targets, like Eldar, Tau and IG/AM?

[Charistoph]

Not quite sure what you meant by that but the reason people are supporting the use of the turbo boost to drop the bomb is because of the extended movement range. Also as a technical side issue, the bomb is being dropped not fired so it could be argued that there has been no shooting involved. The only real issue is the fact that the 7 ed rules forgot about Ork Deff Koptas as another example of a rushed rules release.

Yeah, and Grenades are only Thrown, not Shot. For game purposes, it's considered a Ranged Attack, so it is "Fired". So that little thought is busted.

I note that you didn't seem to bother with the other point, though...

[Da Gargoyle]

I note that you didn't seem to bother with the other point, though...

Didn't think it needed further comment. It is the crux of the problem wouldn't you agree, how does one complete a bombing run with Deff Koptas given 12" is too short and under normal interpretation of the rules you can not use it if you turbo boosted.

As I noted earlier, the guys at the GW store said do the bombing run in the Turbo Boost phase. But as we can see from the commentary, it is a point that needs mutual agreement before the game is started. If someone is not prepared to accept the solution may be for that game the Ork player discards the bomb and uses his 15 points on something else.

Of course tournaments would need clarification in the notes I think. That is one place where people get antsy about lists changing.