Heres a good conundrum, Charging, LoS! and Coherency

[daboarder]

To quote a question posed by someone I know


Rules question. If I have a unit of mans. An ic at the front. I am in coherency before I declare an assault. I declare a charge. You look out sir all the wounds and kill a bunch of the guys near the ic. I then roll a 3 on my charge range. If I move the ic to closest model, and then the rest 3" I cant maintain coherency. Can I charge? It says I follow the same rules as the movement phase. Can we go into this in a bit of detail. Cause it makes a big difference

[Mr Mystery]

Erm....umm....I dunno!

Defo want to get rulebook in hand for this one.

[Slacker]

iirc, there is a 2" range on look out sir now, though I do not have my rulebook close at hand atm.

[Ben_S]

Without consulting the rule book, my inclination is that the IC makes the charge successfully but is no longer part of the unit - that's what would happen if s/he moved out of coherency in the movement phase isn't it?

EDIT:


iirc, there is a 2" range on look out sir now, though I do not have my rulebook close at hand atm.

I don't see this mattering; that still means all friendly models within 2" can get killed by LOS! shots, leaving the closest remaining models almost 5" away (2" coherency + base + 2" coherency).

[hyudun]

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase."

Because your scenario occurs in the assault phase, based on the above passage the IC is still part of the unit, but out of coherency. Its unit membership status is checked ONLY at the end of the Movement Phase and once set cannot be changed until its next Movement Phase unless its entire unit dies.

It'd be the same if your sergeant LOS'ed a bunch of shots and ended up more than 2" away from the remainder of the unit. He's still be considered a part of the unit, but out of coherency, the consequence being that in the next movement phase he HAS to end up in coherency if out of combat, and forced to pile-in anyway if in combat.

[Charon]

In my opinion the charge happens.
The initial charger is successful, the other models are moved to the enemy.
Rules say they have to maintain coherency but they cant. There is no rule that the charge fails at this point.
The only rules we have according to broken unit coherency (like tank shock or fallback) is that you have to get back into coherency as fast as possible (you would probably back in with pile in moves)

[JMichael]

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase."

Because your scenario occurs in the assault phase, based on the above passage the IC is still part of the unit, but out of coherency. Its unit membership status is checked ONLY at the end of the Movement Phase and once set cannot be changed until its next Movement Phase unless its entire unit dies.

It'd be the same if your sergeant LOS'ed a bunch of shots and ended up more than 2" away from the remainder of the unit. He's still be considered a part of the unit, but out of coherency, the consequence being that in the next movement phase he HAS to end up in coherency if out of combat, and forced to pile-in anyway if in combat.

This is exactly correct.
IC character rules for Joining and Leaving a unit are on p166.
And in your example the IC charges 3", but the others move 3" and are out of coherency they will still get a 3" Pile In move at their Initiative and another at the end of combat.
Look Out Sir has a 6" range, so you could end up with an IC 6" away from any other model in that unit, but he/she is still part of that unit until your next Movement Phase.

[daboarder]

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase."

Because your scenario occurs in the assault phase, based on the above passage the IC is still part of the unit, but out of coherency. Its unit membership status is checked ONLY at the end of the Movement Phase and once set cannot be changed until its next Movement Phase unless its entire unit dies.

It'd be the same if your sergeant LOS'ed a bunch of shots and ended up more than 2" away from the remainder of the unit. He's still be considered a part of the unit, but out of coherency, the consequence being that in the next movement phase he HAS to end up in coherency if out of combat, and forced to pile-in anyway if in combat.

Assault rules state you MUST maintain coherency. The question isnt about the IC being part of the unit (he is) its about how a unit can be forced out of coherency due to over watch

[hyudun]

Assault rules state you MUST maintain coherency. The question isnt about the IC being part of the unit (he is) its about how a unit can be forced out of coherency due to over watch

Ah, good point. Read the section and basically GW assumes that it IS possible to maintain unit coherency, even after overwatch.

RAW, if you can't maintain unit coherency at the end of the charge, then you fail to charge and have to revert all assault moves since not all of the mandatory requirements of a successful charge can be met.

But you have a choice of who you assign LOS to, so this restriction should be avoidable in most cases if you do indeed to succeed on that charge.

[daboarder]

This is the kind of rubbish we get when they copy past rules and dont think through the implications of the new rules

[Blood Shadow]

If the charge role isn't high enough to get models into coherency and at least one model into base to base it's an unsuccessful charge and you don't move the unit.

[daboarder]

Got a rules quote for that?

[JMichael]

Here is what I see in the rulebook regarding Coherency during a charge.
p46.
Move Initial Charger (closest to enemy unit).
Move other models, they must abide by the following conditions:
End its move in Coherency
Attempt to end in Base Contact with enemy
If it cannot reach any enemy models, then must try to be w/in 2" of an already engaged model. If it can't them it must stay in coherency.

p46. Failed Charge
One sentence only stating that if the initial charger cannot make it into Base contact the charge fails.

p19. Unit Coherency
Simply states that if models are out of coherency they must restore coherency in the next Movement Phase or as soon as they have the opportunity (in the OP example, you would have two 3" Pile In moves to do this in that turn)

This is interesting, because in the OPs example, he cannot meet the coherency conditions, but since the Initial Charger can make it, he does not meet the 'Failed Charge' condition.

But, I still feel the charge is successful. Initial Charger can make it.
Rest of unit still makes the charge move, and while initially out of Coherency they can easily recover coherency with the two Pile In moves (Init step and End of Combat).

[John Bower]

Here is what I see in the rulebook regarding Coherency during a charge.
p46.
Move Initial Charger (closest to enemy unit).
Move other models, they must abide by the following conditions:
End its move in Coherency
Attempt to end in Base Contact with enemy
If it cannot reach any enemy models, then must try to be w/in 2" of an already engaged model. If it can't them it must stay in coherency.

p46. Failed Charge
One sentence only stating that if the initial charger cannot make it into Base contact the charge fails.

p19. Unit Coherency
Simply states that if models are out of coherency they must restore coherency in the next Movement Phase or as soon as they have the opportunity (in the OP example, you would have two 3" Pile In moves to do this in that turn)

This is interesting, because in the OPs example, he cannot meet the coherency conditions, but since the Initial Charger can make it, he does not meet the 'Failed Charge' condition.

But, I still feel the charge is successful. Initial Charger can make it.
Rest of unit still makes the charge move, and while initially out of Coherency they can easily recover coherency with the two Pile In moves (Init step and End of Combat).

I'm inclined to agree; since the IC can make it to B2B contact, the rest follow the normal rules for charging; so the charge didn't fail although they end up 'out of coherency' there are no rules to cover this situation. So the charge succeeds, you move into contact when able and back into coherency as per all other rules regarding this. Clear as muddy water :D

[SnakeChisler]

You have 3 ways of getting back into coherency

1/ charge range
2/ Pile in moves
3/ End of combat pile in moves

Coherency is only an issue at the start/end of the movement phase, RAW is never 100% so just take the 1st part and run with it
Move Initial Charger (closest to enemy unit)
And move on from there otherwise if you try and over think it you'll just end up with a load of scenarios that won't fit and get in a mess especially if you get kill back from look out in assault as well leaving whats left out of coherency again given its 6" Look out Sir radius.
So the Next time to look at coherency would be in your next movement phase.

[daboarder]

You have 3 ways of getting back into coherency

1/ charge range
2/ Pile in moves
3/ End of combat pile in moves

Coherency is only an issue at the start/end of the movement phase, RAW is never 100% so just take the 1st part and run with it
Move Initial Charger (closest to enemy unit)
And move on from there otherwise if you try and over think it you'll just end up with a load of scenarios that won't fit and get in a mess especially if you get kill back from look out in assault as well leaving whats left out of coherency again given its 6" Look out Sir radius.
So the Next time to look at coherency would be in your next movement phase.

snake, the question is what if your roll is high enough to get into B2B but NOT high enough to get into coherency as dictated that you MUST MAINTAIN by the assault rules. Claiming the coherency is only relevant to the movement is not only incorrect its also not actually helpful

[Charon]

snake, the question is what if your roll is high enough to get into B2B but NOT high enough to get into coherency as dictated that you MUST MAINTAIN by the assault rules. Claiming the coherency is only relevant to the movement is not only incorrect its also not actually helpful

JMIchael provided a lot of input here.

[daboarder]

I know, and I like his solution, but I would like to see others thoughts on this is all.


aedit; i'd also like to know how various groups would play such a rule, in order to get a feel for the community response

[SnakeChisler]

snake, the question is what if your roll is high enough to get into B2B but NOT high enough to get into coherency as dictated that you MUST MAINTAIN by the assault rules. Claiming the coherency is only relevant to the movement is not only incorrect its also not actually helpful

I didn't say it wasn't relevant my point is charge stands because that's what it says and all you need to consider is getting your butt back into coherency asap and try make base to base for the assault.

If you can't you just keep trying till you can

[John Bower]

snake, the question is what if your roll is high enough to get into B2B but NOT high enough to get into coherency as dictated that you MUST MAINTAIN by the assault rules. Claiming the coherency is only relevant to the movement is not only incorrect its also not actually helpful

The fact is that the whole situation has put you 'out of coherency', the only rule to do with that is that you must get back into coherency asap. There's no rule anywhere that says you 'can't' charge due to already being out of it. Only that you should be in it once all the charge moves are complete. But ... You can't; in this situation you were already out of Coherency due to the overwatch; that's not your problem, you just carry on as you are still in range for the charge. Had the roll been let's say 4 inches the question wouldn't have arisen, it only arose because the CR was 3"; and the models charging were for arguments sake 2.5" apart so that once into B2B they were out of coherency. Life happens; poor dice rolls happen but at the end of the day, all that matters is the actual CR which is enough to get the unit into battle, then you get them back into coherency with the pile in moves like you would if they were already in combat.

[daboarder]

The fact is that the whole situation has put you 'out of coherency', the only rule to do with that is that you must get back into coherency asap. There's no rule anywhere that says you 'can't' charge due to already being out of it. Only that you should be in it once all the charge moves are complete. But ... You can't; in this situation you were already out of Coherency due to the overwatch; that's not your problem, you just carry on as you are still in range for the charge. Had the roll been let's say 4 inches the question wouldn't have arisen, it only arose because the CR was 3"; and the models charging were for arguments sake 2.5" apart so that once into B2B they were out of coherency. Life happens; poor dice rolls happen but at the end of the day, all that matters is the actual CR which is enough to get the unit into battle, then you get them back into coherency with the pile in moves like you would if they were already in combat.hmm interesting, sounds plausible, But what would then stop said player for claiming they could charge units 6-12 appart and it not matter because they are out of coherency before the charge?

[JMichael]

hmm interesting, sounds plausible, But what would then stop said player for claiming they could charge units 6-12 appart and it not matter because they are out of coherency before the charge?

When you move your models in the charging unit, they have to try and end the charge in coherency. You can't choose to break unit coherency.
Loosing models to casualties in any phase is not your choice.

[daboarder]

Thats not what I was saying.

[Charon]

This one:


Simply states that if models are out of coherency they must restore coherency in the next Movement Phase or as soon as they have the opportunity (in the OP example, you would have two 3" Pile In moves to do this in that turn)

Spreading the models out even more is not trying to restore coherency as soon as possible.

[daboarder]

ok pretty simple then. All works on my end then

[StraightSilver]

There is another issue here however.

If the unit being charged, the one that over watched, has a higher initiative than the charging unit then they will get their pile in moves first.

If they then make it into B2B with the charging unit the charging unit cannot restore unit coherency as they will then be in combat and may not get a pile in move.

I don't have an answer for this one, but as somebody asked what I would do in my gaming group:

I would allow the charge as at least one model can make it into combat, but I would count it as a disordered charge. I think that's the fairest way to do it but it appears there are no rules to resolve the situation.

[Charistoph]

There is another issue here however.

If the unit being charged, the one that over watched, has a higher initiative than the charging unit then they will get their pile in moves first.

If they then make it into B2B with the charging unit the charging unit cannot restore unit coherency as they will then be in combat and may not get a pile in move.

I don't have an answer for this one, but as somebody asked what I would do in my gaming group:

I would allow the charge as at least one model can make it into combat, but I would count it as a disordered charge. I think that's the fairest way to do it but it appears there are no rules to resolve the situation.

It would be rare for the charger to be out of coherency, but the chargee able to Pile In to the charger's unit. It's possible, but the odds are low, especially when the model the charger hits is usually the closest one, and that one is probably at the farther end of ITS coherency. So they have to make up the difference in coherency, bypass any models that can get in to base to base with the charging model, and then hit a charging unit's model.

Possible, but odds are crazy to get it to happen.