Sybarites can now take a splinter rifle AND a power sword?

[The Sovereign]

According to the digital copy of the new Dark Eldar codex, kabalite sybarites now A) come with a splinter rifle and CCW stock, and B) can replace their melee weapon with a power sword, with no mention of any effect on them carrying the rifle. Am I reading that correctly? If so, that would be brilliant!

[John Bower]

According to the digital copy of the new Dark Eldar codex, kabalite sybarites now A) come with a splinter rifle and CCW stock, and B) can replace their melee weapon with a power sword, with no mention of any effect on them carrying the rifle. Am I reading that correctly? If so, that would be brilliant!

why shouldn't they be able to? Marine sergeants can carry a bolter and PS.

[Charon]

Yes they can. Still dont see the use for an expensive power weapon in a shooty unit when you dont even plan on maxing out his A ?

[Mr Mystery]

Dissuasion of small unit assaults.

Warriors, whilst reasonably fighty for a shooty unit lack the toughness and armour to put up a protracted fight, so jumping them in combat makes sense.

Putting in even a single power weapon adds a lot of risk to small units trying to take them out. Bit of bad luck, combined with their high Initiative could see the small unit lose enough models in the fight to be rendered useless.

[Charon]

Yeah. Small combat expert units are gonna fear that 2 S3 power weapon attacks that could have been 2 more Kabalites (4 more shots, 2 more wounds, 1 more attack) instead. And if you leave the sybarite at home too (as you should) make that even 3 additional kabalites.

[Mr Mystery]

Fear? No.

Food for thought? Possibly.

But by all means, continue believing you are the tactical master. Can't possibly be other schools of thought.

[Charon]

Keep sitting on your high horse and try to sell As for Bs.
Srsly. Stop it. I dont even think you played only one competitive game in your live by the amount of nonsense you keep typing here.

IF you cant stop getting an expensive weapon on a crappy unit, at LEAST make sure to maximise your attacks with that expensive weapon. So no Rifle, but a pistol to get 3 instead of 2 attacks.
Thats not a difficult concept at all. No rocket science here.
And if you want to go even more effective, get 3 additional models with good weapons who provide a hell lot more support than a single model. Also not a very difficult concept (for some it seems).

Sure there can be different shools of thought. If the result is the same (or unknown), the way does not matter.
Sadly you provide no "schools of thought". You provide a crappy way to waste points.

[Mr Mystery]

So, so crappy, standing a chance of doing decent damage to small sized assault units which might otherwise come through unscathed. Definitely absolutely no point whatsoever in doing it. None. Killing models is utterly pointless in the game. Everyone knows you win by stamping your feet and shrieking.

And at no point have I made a statement that it's compulsory or advisable. You asked what the point would be, I provided one, and you decided I must be mentally feeble for considering something you hadn't.

[Charon]

decent damage

Wasting points on doing no damage at all ist not doing "decent damage".


Everyone knows you win by stamping your feet and shrieking.

You win by taking objectives and not by "lolz i was lucky and killed 1 assault marine this turn for the cost of 2 assault marines!"
I know. This is incredible hard to understand.

How about you back off your claims by providing some math and/or some of examples of these mysterious "small close combat squads" that this "tactic" would be viable against?
The List cant be long as most CC units are either not small (orcs, nids,..), outclass the DE by a huge margin (every single space marine unit), do strike at thesame or higher initative (Eldar) or are no combat units at all (Tau, AM)

So far I have seen not a single line of reasoning behind your claims.

[Mr Mystery]

Maths? We're not rolling anywhere near enough dice in a gaming career, let alone a single game for statistics to make their mark.

Without that power weapon, the unit is easy prey. Threat to the Assault Marines is pretty low, and they stand a decent chance of coming through the combat with no losses.

But, add in the power weapon, and all it takes is some flukey rolling, and there goes two Assault Marines just to the Sybarite.

Tactically speaking, those are two very, very different scenarios, particularly as the Assault Marines will be striking after the Warriors in many cases, and the loss of a couple before they get to swing makes the combat that much dicier.

As I said in my first post - it's about dissuasion, not power gaming. It's about making your opponents choices as unpleasant as you possibly can. The cost of a power weapon is well worth it if it means you stave off an assault which might otherwise remove your entire unit from the board. Even if it just keeps them in that fight for another turn. It also opens up other options. If the unit has been thoroughly shot up, that power weapon can be used for spite, such as capitalising on the sloppy positioning of a lone Crisis Suit. Flex, flex and flex again. That's how I do my lists, and it's served me pretty well so far (in the few tournaments I've been too, I've never lost a game, or drawn one. Everyone's a winner baby, that's no lie.)

But of course, you live in a wonderful world where apparently competitive gaming is everything, and nobody ever fields anything except what is perceived to be the 'optimal' list, usually based on interwebular gibberish., and every combat is worked out not through dice but by breaking out the calculators and working out the exact statistical outcome.....

Risk management dude. You should give it a try.

[Houghten]

And if you leave the sybarite at home too (as you should)

...then you will lose access to the phantasm grenade launcher.

[Charon]

they stand a decent chance of coming through the combat with no losses.

How do you come to this conclusion when


Maths? We're not rolling anywhere near enough dice in a gaming career, let alone a single game for statistics to make their mark.

You cant claim that mats is out of the picture in your first statement and then start to talk about "chances".

and again...


Risk management dude. You should give it a try.

You cant manage risks when you didnt calculate them before.

Grats to another post full of contradictions.



...then you will lose access to the phantasm grenade launcher.

Not really a bummer. Quite price for a very small impact (if it has an impact at all as fearless, ATSKNF is quite prominet) and doesnt even confer def. grenades anymore.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh you can take maths into account to a point - but to decide it's the be all and end all is stupid.

Now, how about actually tackling my points, rather than going for ad hominem?

[Charon]

Oh you can take maths into account to a point - but to decide it's the be all and end all is stupid.

Now, how about actually tackling my points, rather than going for ad hominem?

Because I already did that. And you probably would come to the same conclusion if you "take maths into account to a point" and start to calculate chances.
Really no rocket science to figure out if 8 shots overwatch and 4 attacks in melee with 4 hitpoints are better or equal or worse than 2 shots overwatch, with 1 hitpoint and 2 attacks with ap3.

[eldargal]

A power weapon on a kabalite squad you want to hold an objective can be useful, can help keep them alive to at least contest th objective or until some assistance arrives.

[Mr Mystery]

So by introducing a cheap enough power weapon, you agree that your opponent is now faced with a very different tactical risk yes?

And that's bad because?

Now then, 8 shots overwatch? Where are you getting that from? 10 Splinter Rifles get 20 shots on overwatch. And the more dice you roll, the more chances you have at getting 6's, and thus hits. And so on and so forth. And that is precisely where relying on statistics falls down on it's arse.

Same with the Power Weapon. It removes a potential two rolls from the pot. Two hits, two wounds, two casualties, as opposed to Two hits, two wounds, two 3+ saves after.

On balance, I think I would prefer to keep the Splinter Rifle, as that allows the Sybarite to partake in the dakka. Giving him the pistol does indeed generate a solitary extra attack - which is utterly wasted if your opponent doesn't assault.

As I said - flex, flex and flex again. If your unit can fulfil a single role, then it risks missing out on the battle entirely, or being sidelined during crucial tipping points.

So there very much is a point in buying that power weapon. Many may consider it not worth the bother, and that's one thing. But declaring it universally pointless? That's another thing entirely.

[Charon]

So by introducing a cheap enough power weapon, you agree that your opponent is now faced with a very different tactical risk yes?


No, I dont agree. Thats not a "very" different tactical risk. Oh noez he has a small chance of killing 1 marine and an astronomical small chance of killing 2. Doesnt really make it "very different".

Get more guns and more bodys (for the same price) and you get their chances of doing the exact same thing up by a higher margin AND have an astronomical small chance of killing even more than 2.

THAT is very different.


Now then, 8 shots overwatch? Where are you getting that from?

From the 4 Kabalites I can by for the cost of a Sybarite + power weapon.


On balance, I think I would prefer to keep the Splinter Rifle, as that allows the Sybarite to partake in the dakka. Giving him the pistol does indeed generate a solitary extra attack - which is utterly wasted if your opponent doesn't assault.

But the 15 points on a power weapon are not wasted then?


As I said - flex, flex and flex again. If your unit can fulfil a single role, then it risks missing out on the battle entirely, or being sidelined during crucial tipping points.

You have to misplay VERY HARD when a ranged unit misses out on the battle entirely. Besides every point you put in a unit to make it marginally better at another aspect of the game cuts the same points on units that could perform in that aspect a lot.


But declaring it universally pointless?

Not universally. It has its place in dedicated Assault units or you could even argue in units that still perform assault tasks decently (Space Marine Tacticals for example). But for a fragile shooty unit that gets obliterated in melee anyways? Complete waste of points.




A power weapon on a kabalite squad you want to hold an objective can be useful, can help keep them alive to at least contest th objective or until some assistance arrives.

Power Weapon does not keep them alive. It neither boots T, nor armor or Ld. All you have is a very small chance to mitigate 2 or 3 attacks. Not a bummer for most dedicated assault units.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is why you don't want to field it. Which is fine. Nobody is declaring it a top secret weapon that will win the game.

But it still has it's uses, should someone wish to field it.

[The Sovereign]

why shouldn't they be able to? Marine sergeants can carry a bolter and PS.

It's a bit of a surprise because they didn't have that option in the last codex.

As warriors are a primarily shooty unit, it behooves a DE player to maximize the shootiness of the unit by giving the sybarite a rifle as well. But sybarites are also high initiative, so it might be beneficial to give him a power sword to deal with marine sergeants and the like in challenges. At least that's my thought process. I'll be sure to give him haywire grenades, too.

[Charon]

Which is why you don't want to field it. Which is fine. Nobody is declaring it a top secret weapon that will win the game.

But it still has it's uses, should someone wish to field it.

Speaking as general as possible?
The nail in your had has a use. You can put your coat there if you want to.
Virtually EVERYTHING has a "use" if you dont mind putting up stupid things.

[Mr Mystery]

Speaking as general as possible?
The nail in your had has a use. You can put your coat there if you want to.
Virtually EVERYTHING has a "use" if you dont mind putting up stupid things.

You really are beyond reason and civility aren't you? So convinced your way is the only way.

No wonder you freak out with every change.

[YorkNecromancer]

The unresolved romantic tension in this thread is unbelievable.

Charon, seriously, just kiss Mystery and get it over with.

[Mr Mystery]

Tosspot :p

[YorkNecromancer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ULuHJgCos7A

[Charon]

So convinced your way is the only way.

No wonder you freak out with every change.

Not the "only" way. As soon as you provide a viable alternative backed up by at least some data I will gladly rethink "my ways" (as there are options).
But as soon as someone claims "there is another way you just have to pretend that your opponent does not try to win and leave the stupid math aside" it becomes tiresome.
You make far too much assumptions on situations that will hardly occur to find a reason for equipment that hardly has a use in this configuration.

@ Yorknecromancer

Pretty sure he is not my type of man, prefer the long haired gotic type.

[DarkLink]

You really are beyond reason and civility aren't you? So convinced your way is the only way.

No wonder you freak out with every change.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Mr Mystery]

I've never freaked out at change.

I love change.

[DarkLink]

But you always freak out over people freaking out over change. Someone unhappy about a new rule? "Bah, they're just pessimistic whiners and they should wait and see and I think it's awesome and I have a really great job." This is very much one of those "it takes two to fight" situations, and you're as much at fault as he is.

[Mr Mystery]

I rarely say owt is awesome when it's not. What I challenge is the 'OH NOES!' approach, especially when the people losing it haven't even played a game with the new stuff.

Wait and see is the sensible option. By all means have some form of opinion, but remain open minded. That way you're more likely to succeed. Hence my really great job.

[DarkLink]

I rarely say owt is awesome when it's not.

Sure...

[John Bower]

Actually; is the Sybarite an 'optional' character now? With most Codices it seems leaders are becoming the norm for a unit.

[Charon]

Actually; is the Sybarite an 'optional' character now? With most Codices it seems leaders are becoming the norm for a unit.

Depends. For CSM it is a "must upgrade", IG has it included. Space Marines can decide to upgrade their Sergant to a Veteran Sergant, Eldar can upgrade their Aspects to Exarchs,...