nerf eldar pleeeeaaasseee!

[wolflold]

Played against eldar yesterday, and i just cant win from that army! 1850 points and al it took was 4 wave serpents and a wraightknight to destroy my army... wraithknight, ok its strong but can be dealt with, but waveserpents...OMG!...They are realy OP!!! Scatter laser/shuriken cannon/serpent shield, 7x str6 and d6+1 str 7 ignore cover and also with reroll to hit, cmon gw! I play space marines, and nothing works. Drop pods, he shoots me away, rhino rush, he ignores the smoke launchers and shoots me away, land raider, knight shoots it away, even tried a shooty army, im outgunned...even terminators die like guardsman. Somebody has some advice/tactics?

[Denzark]

Castle up with an AV15 building. Preferably with a Macro cannon thingy on top.

[SgtJoo]

I've had a ton of luck with an AV14 Iron Hands spam list against Eldar. Knock out the Knight T1 with shooting and then they can't really touch you. To be fair I'm running with some Forge World stuff, but nobody around here mind it. My Achilles have been a bloody godsend, especially with the 7th changes to vehicle damage. What's that, you need an 8 to blow me up?

[Defenestratus]

Land raiders.

Wave serpents can't scratch their paint (unless he has one with bright lances, but so far I think I'm the only eldar player on earth who actually fields them like this) and they can protect your dudes until they get up close to bash the tanks and pointy ears with giant f'in hammers.

Also grav centurions can make quick work of them. If he's going to play 4 wave serpents then you should feel no qualms about playing Tigirius with grav cents. Get the power that ignores cover saves, and then fire some twin linked grav cannons at them. They wont be able to get their jink save and the serpent shield won't be able to help since 6's don't technically count as penetrating hits... Its how mine drop like flies. Also consider combi melta/plas vets in a drop pod Go for the rear armor on it... the shield doesn't work against the back armor and you can usually get at least one debilitating shot in. If he chooses to jink you've done just as well because its not going to be doing nearly as much pain next turn.

Wave serpents do die, but you need to really focus on killing them. They've always been relatively tough to kill, its just that people think they're OP with the shield shot which should really only be like Str 4 pinning ignores cover instead of Str 7. If you thought that serpents are bad, you obviously didn't play back when Falcons were literally unkillable. They had a rule where as long as they moved fast (and that was more than 6") all hits counted as glances against them. Then holofields used to be "roll 2d6 and take the lowest for damage result". Back in the day, there were no hullpoints - your tank could take 100+ glances in a game and could never die. The damage table for glances was just a -2 modifier, so in order to actually HARM the tank you had to roll a 5+ which would have resulted in a weapon destroyed. But when you roll two dice, getting 2 different 5+ results was nigh impossible and so the falcons would just zoom around the table the entire game in a perpetual state of being unable to fire, but still dropping off squads of harlequins and fire dragons who literally murdered anything they came in contact with.

So yeah, it could be worse... you could have the flying Falconry circus again. The simple way to fix this isn't to nerf the wave serpent, but to only unlock the wave serpent as a dedicated transport option for squads of 10 or more models. Until then you can only get the falcon (which would need a transport capacity increase of some sort to make this strategy viable)

[DarkLink]

Of course, with only a 24" range and 6" movement, the Serpents will just sit back and force saves, and the WK will inflict ID on those Centurions with no invulnerable saves. You can roll for Invisibility, because everyone loves Invisible deathstars, but you're still kinda slow.

[Ang56]

Agree that the Serpent Shield shouldn't be S7, 4 or 5 would be fair. More they are way too cheap to field even considering the unit inside. As to the topic, not really sure, Serpents are tough but not that crazy in a reasonable game, I think the lists with 6+ where they are only fielding minimums to put more serpents on the board are pretty gimmicky.

I don't usually have too much trouble against 2-4 of them, LR's are good but they aren't sure to kill 2 serpents in a game so they aren't a great Serpent killer for their cost, they'll protect units though. I think Serpents are tough but if they aren't spammed they are managable. Serpents are more devastating to low model count armies and vehicles. I'm not overly familiar with the vanilla marine book so I apologize for not being specific. But you need to come at them more then one side, gun lining against serpents is an uphill battle, drop pods and deep strike are your friend, even a Tac squad's bolters coming out of a drop pod will take off 1-2 hullpoints on rear armor. I'm not sure I like the idea of looking for an expensive paper, rock, scissor answer. Even if you find the Paper to their Rock, they probably have access to some scissors. Lately I've been liking fielding cheaper units in larger numbers, especially in maelstrom.

In my IG I tend to favor guardsmen spam, I have a lot of grenades, plasma, missiles, autocannons, chimera's. I can sling a lot of S6-8 with them, orders improve it a lot. They are tough but I can usually focus them down.

Not saying I don't think Serpents are over powered, just mean looking for 1 thing that will take em down might not be the best way to go. In my experience Serpents tend to be pretty vulnerable to high volume of fire from a lot of different weapons. Shooting pricier anti tank guns at them just gets depressing when they convert most of it to glances. Assault is also a pretty solid way to take them down if you can reliably get to them. High unit count armies will be better at catching them though since they'll cover more ground giving Serpents less space to kite. Really any way you approach it Serpents are just really good for their points cost and availability.

[Lost Vyper]

As an Eldar player, here´s what works :

Blood Angels : Vanguard Veterans with Meltabombs, Sternguard with combi-meltas in a pod with that dude who steals initiative with 4+(?), Coteaz, and ally with some Assassin, the one with S4 AP2 Flamer is nasty and Vindicare Ignores cover and WILL penetrate...

So, have i played the game for you enough? ;)

cos all of the above are annoying as HELL, and i hate the Necrons Tesla BTW...we all have crosses to ...and so worth...just THROW DICE!

[Path Walker]

Ask your opponent not to use 4 wave serpents as you're not enjoying playing against it

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Ask your opponent not to use 4 wave serpents as you're not enjoying playing against it



This does not work when you go to a tournament... and who is to say the guy he is playing against is a bad guy? i've had games where i've crushed and been crushed and both my attitude and my opponent has made a huge difference. You cannot blame your opponent for playing a strong list. Eldar are strong it's been that way since their book came out and it will continue to be that way. they are just on a different power level then the other armies. If you do not plan for them then there isn't anything that can be said or done to help you. If your that guy who brings one anti tank gun and expects its to take out a tank a turn for all 6 turns then shame on you. you need to have multiple ways to take out tanks in a list for it to be effective. this had and will never change.

[Pssyche]

Ang56 is piss funny.
He derides the spamming of Wave Serpents, and then goes In to advocate the spamming of Imperial Guard.

Brilliant!

[Dave Mcturk]

i love my eldar - but for 'friendly' games we have agreed some simple mods:

1:wavz silly shield - ONE use only per game

2: fire dragons up in points from 22 to 25pts - they are I5 / A3+ / and with BF have an effective range of up to 24" and they ALL have melta bombs - at least as good as a marine with a melta !

3: spiderz up from 19 pts to 24pts . they have battle focus + !!! - oodles of ST6/7 weapons they even have a two shot AP1 spinner on a BS5 exarch.. shame they dont have a 3++ IV save like necron wraith ... but oh well. they still make a mess of pretty much everything. [oh and they all have built in H&R] !!!

4: walkers are up 5+ points on base - because who doesnt like a walker that is more mobile than a vyper ! - has better protection ! - costs less points and can carry two decent weapons [ oh and doesnt take up a FA slot!]

5: shiny spears are up +2pts to 27 - because really 25pts is ridiculous - the only issue we have is that ONLY the exarch has hit and run - ?? - the rest are all just stallers ! [star wars imperial guard on bikes ] - ["im a skilled rider - but..."]

[Anggul]

Wave Serpent shields need a general overhaul to work as they do in the fluff rather than just firing once per game. They should hit everything within 6" in their front arc at a lower strength so they're actually a close-up shock assault weapon rather than a long-range anti-(almost) everything weapon.

Fire Dragons are plenty expensive already, no need to make them more expensive. Yes you pay less for a squad all equipped with special weapons, because every one you lose is felt a lot harder than the chumps protecting the special weapon guys in mixed squads. That's why Vanguard end up overpriced if you give them a few power weapons.

24pts is too much for Warp Spiders. They're too cheap yes, but that would be a bit much.

War Walkers aren't the problem, it's Vypers that need to be made better to bring them into line with each other.

Shining Spears certainly aren't under-priced. There's a reason you rarely see them. Also, hit & run is granted to the rest of the squad.


As for the main topic, it's mainly Wave Serpent shields that need to be nerfed. Most Eldar stuff is decent but not overpowered. Spamming Wave Serpents is the problem, and then only because of the shields.

[40kGamer]

As for the main topic, it's mainly Wave Serpent shields that need to be nerfed. Most Eldar stuff is decent but not overpowered. Spamming Wave Serpents is the problem, and then only because of the shields.

Have to agree that this is the game changer... The offensive ability of the shields is insane!

[SnakeChisler]

You are a Marine man up and get some help from our brothers in the warp

Legion of the Damned cast forth from the warp to aide our beleaguered marine brother

I run 2 squads 5/6 man with Melta, Multi-Melta & Combi Melta or plasma pistol axe on the sgt you can re-roll the Deep strike if you want and they ignore cover and are slow and purposeful

Take a squad of 10 and use the LOD codex to add the FNP relic which is also buffed if any squad fails a morale pinning or fear test to a max of +2.

Its a Marine save and some days you'll get bad roles but generally they tank most stuff and can tar pit units in combat, they ignore high AP weapons and this stupid Eldar thing of 6's rending doesn't come into play and once your in combat they've 2 attacks base.

Once they've dropped behind it forces the Eldar player to move out and pushes the Serpents out so generally something is looking at their rear, I play DA so tend to do a mass outflank turn 2 DS and hide for turn 1, yes they can ignore cover but if they can't physically see my attack bikes and speeders then they can't shoot at them. Once my reserves arrive the Bikes speeders coordinate their attacks with the 2 LOD squads who are hopefully in and behind + the DS Deathwing Knight terminators + the outflanking plasma bikes.

It doesn't work all the time but since fetching the LOD its now a pretty tight, even and enjoyable game

The main issue I was having and why I resorted to building a couple of LOD squads has been since 7th the jink save + buff combined with the downgrade to glancing hits was making them near unkillable except by assaulting them

[Dave Mcturk]

"Shining Spears certainly aren't under-priced. There's a reason you rarely see them. Also, hit & run is granted to the rest of the squad."
- speartarchs just die. any sensible opponent targets them - difficult to hide a bike - then the squad can be pitted or fried - you can only do so many look out sirs - At T4 with a 4+ save and no IV they are an easy target

imo the reason ppl dont use spears is because spiders do the same job better for 19pts ! St 7 v mech is better than ST6 lance and double the shots.

[Lord Krungharr]

The very best way I've thought of for dealing with Wave Serpents involves Space Wolves with AstraM allies. Use the 3 open fast attack drop pods and drop in 2 Veteran Squads with melta guns and a demo charge, and the 3rd pod containing a Company Command Squad, perhaps with a Rune Priest(s) or Primaris Psyker(s). All behind the Serpents if possible of course.

Make sure to have some Vox in those squads too, and dish out the Orders to Ignore cover to the Vet squads. Hopefully with all the Divination you can get Perfect Timing on the Command Squad. Triple BOOM!

Or I guess in general just Orders to 2 or 4 lascannon squads, hopefully with Prescience on them, that should deal with them, and for relatively low points cost.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and a few Deathstrike Missiles on a Skyshield Landing Pad, that could be good too. Figure they Serpents blow their shields on trying to kill those things Turn 1, so they wouldn't have them next player turn to downgrade the penetrating hits.

[Demonus]

Don't worry, once 7th comes out instead of just tweaking the OP of Wave Serpents, GW will make them obsolete, and nerf 2-3 more things to make up for it. Meanwhile Riptides will get a price reduction :)

[40kGamer]

Don't worry, once 7th comes out instead of just tweaking the OP of Wave Serpents, GW will make them obsolete, and nerf 2-3 more things to make up for it. Meanwhile Riptides will get a price reduction :)

That isn't a hammer hanging over top of the Wave Serpent, it's a sledge hammer! :p

[phreakachu]

.... Close Combat. Youre gonna love tap the rear, REGARDLESS of facing, and seeing as how your TACTICAL MARINES come with Krak Grenades, that would mean that a squad of 10 will get 10 s6 hits against armor 10, needing a 3+ to hit.... one of you Mathhammer jokers wanna crunch some digits on that?
Or, if your game is faring that badly, walk to the counter mid game and buy some new dice, bro.

[daboarder]

.... Close Combat. Youre gonna love tap the rear, REGARDLESS of facing, and seeing as how your TACTICAL MARINES come with Krak Grenades, that would mean that a squad of 10 will get 10 s6 hits against armor 10, needing a 3+ to hit.... one of you Mathhammer jokers wanna crunch some digits on that?
Or, if your game is faring that badly, walk to the counter mid game and buy some new dice, bro.

So...catching a skimmer in CC isnt trivial

[phreakachu]

never said it wasnt. but on the other hand, its not exactly in the realm of a Gaurd Conscript bashing Ghazkhull to death, either. I play Marines. i play Marines up-close-and-personal, because they tend to work better this way. true, a canny opponent can avoid getting their skimmers close to anything, but a solid net of units can make this impossible at best.

many players can and do forget the use of TACTICS... this is more than cut-and-pasting a numb-n*tz netlist onto your B-Scribe roster, this is application of force where needed. positioning of units, use of terrain.

Catching a skimmer in CC, or with an exposed rear isnt Rocket Surgery.

[Da Gargoyle]

Has anyone else found out the hard way about the interesting tweak in the jink rule? That little thing at the beginning of the rule that states you must declare if you are going to jink before your opponent actually roles to hit. So now, it is not a case of jink if you need it, its do you feel lucky punk or snap fire everything on any skimmer for the whole game. Of course my first use of Serpents was as a troop delivery system, but from now on any skimmer on the table in front of me will be shot at with something threatening. That should slow down a few jet bikes and ravagers.

[daboarder]

Has anyone else found out the hard way about the interesting tweak in the jink rule? That little thing at the beginning of the rule that states you must declare if you are going to jink before your opponent actually roles to hit. So now, it is not a case of jink if you need it, its do you feel lucky punk or snap fire everything on any skimmer for the whole game. Of course my first use of Serpents was as a troop delivery system, but from now on any skimmer on the table in front of me will be shot at with something threatening. That should slow down a few jet bikes and ravagers.

Its just forcing you to evaluate the likelyhood of damage and make a decisions about what is likely as opposed to a reaction.

[Da Gargoyle]

Its just forcing you to evaluate the likelyhood of damage and make a decisions about what is likely as opposed to a reaction.

This is true, but a serpent shield will not be as effective if it only hits on a 6. It means I'm going back to buildings for cover and sitting in reserve with my Falcons until they are needed. Finally a use for that Autarch strategic ability.

[xsquidz]

This is true, but a serpent shield will not be as effective if it only hits on a 6. It means I'm going back to buildings for cover and sitting in reserve with my Falcons until they are needed. Finally a use for that Autarch strategic ability.

Fire with the TL'd scatter laser first, sure its hitting on 6's but you get 4 shots and then 4 rerolls to get one 6. Then if you do get that one 6 the serpent shield and its bottom guns are twin linked as well.

[Anggul]

Fire with the TL'd scatter laser first, sure its hitting on 6's but you get 4 shots and then 4 rerolls to get one 6. Then if you do get that one 6 the serpent shield and its bottom guns are twin linked as well.

Yeah, Serpents still cause a fair bit of damage even when jinking. Even better if you have flyers to shoot at anyway.

[Denzark]

Looking at Lords of War. I think the Typhon is the new points-efficient. A 48" S10 AP1 7" template - which ignores cover - with 2 lascannons, 14 all round, ceramite armour so it can only be glanced by melta, 6HP. Comes in with all that a little over 4 ton in points.

I'd put that up against a pro-rata points cost of wave serpents.

[40kGamer]

Looking at Lords of War. I think the Typhon is the new points-efficient. A 48" S10 AP1 7" template - which ignores cover - with 2 lascannons, 14 all round, ceramite armour so it can only be glanced by melta, 6HP. Comes in with all that a little over 4 ton in points.

I'd put that up against a pro-rata points cost of wave serpents.

That sounds pretty sexy! Where are the Typhon rules located?

[DWest]

That sounds pretty sexy! Where are the Typhon rules located?
Imperial Armour II, 2nd Edition. Home of many things that will peg the "are you serious?!" meter.

[40kGamer]

Imperial Armour II, 2nd Edition. Home of many things that will peg the "are you serious?!" meter.

Figures it's hiding in the only IA book I haven't picked up over the years. :p I'm guessing they were shooting for the "We're seriously trying to sell these models" rules like we usually see in IA. Then inevitably sales goals are met and the model rules are screwed. Look at the poor Lucius.. It was a Wave Serpent death sentence (among other things) and now it's one of the most useless models in the Imperial arsenal. Go design team! :p

[DWest]

The Lucius (assuming you mean the dreadnought drop pod) was pretty annoying though- it all but guaranteed you would lose a unit of the opponent's choosing immediately. Yes, a regular Drop Pod full of Sternguard could hurt, but a Lucius with an Ironclad in it would take out *anything* by virtue of tying it up in melee even if the Ironclad didn't just obliterate it.

[40kGamer]

Agree that Lucius Drop Pod were super annoying to deal with and an amazing value for Marine players. Now it is just flat out useless. If the Dread could stay embarked and assault the turn after arriving it would be fairly well balanced but in typical GW fashion it went from way too good to just plain bad. One reason why I never bother hopping on the deal of the day bandwagon and don't get rid of old models. Who would've thought that Wave Serpents would see a day in the sun like they are atm.

[DWest]

Agree that Lucius Drop Pod were super annoying to deal with and an amazing value for Marine players. Now it is just flat out useless. If the Dread could stay embarked and assault the turn after arriving it would be fairly well balanced but in typical GW fashion it went from way too good to just plain bad.
Actually, IA2, 2nd ed fixes that as well, as the Dreadnought may remain embarked until it can assault. The Pod also gains Shrouded the turn it comes in, and the Dreadnought gains Shrouded if it disembarks but stays on the doors.

[SnakeChisler]

I checked in the Eldar book the other week on the Serpent Shield and if they use it for shooting it then it can't be used to bounce the hit from a Pen to a Glance unless of course they don't shoot with it next turn "If this option is used the shield is inactive until the following turn".

The only time the vast majority of wave serpents will have the shield up is on the 1st turn and keeping track of what fired in which phase is essential.

I noticed this when said Eldar player tried to use the Serpent Shield for interceptor on his Falcon, reading through the whole text for the weapon/buff certainly helps coz it says "In the Shooting Phase" an interceptor is in my movement phase.

Another 1 to note Holo-Field +1 to cover only applies if the Vehicle has moved, unfortunately the vehicle is also fast so can shoot 2 weapons at full BS but for the 1st turn any jink is only 4+.

Know thine enemy better than he knows himself !

[40kGamer]

Actually, IA2, 2nd ed fixes that as well, as the Dreadnought may remain embarked until it can assault. The Pod also gains Shrouded the turn it comes in, and the Dreadnought gains Shrouded if it disembarks but stays on the doors.

If it can stay embarked that makes it a fairly well balanced unit. Gives the opponent 1 turn to move away or deal with it without forcing the Dread to stand in the open and pray. :D

[Denzark]

That sounds pretty sexy! Where are the Typhon rules located?

Its also in the new IA13 as a Chaos option - as is Spartan etc...


Actually, IA2, 2nd ed fixes that as well, as the Dreadnought may remain embarked until it can assault. The Pod also gains Shrouded the turn it comes in, and the Dreadnought gains Shrouded if it disembarks but stays on the doors.


And it accumulates with night fighting I understand.

[Pssyche]

I've got no problems with somebody fielding a Lucius Drop Pod against me, whether it kerb-stomps me or not.
Providing they have the latest Book containing the Rules in it and they have the appropriate Forge World model to go with those Rules.
That's what I do.

[Dave Mcturk]

Catching a skimmer in CC, or with an exposed rear isnt Rocket Surgery.

:rolleyes: loving the mixed metaphor :)

[Shaun]

I run Blood Angels and Eldar, I enjoy fast armies.

Heres some Advice/Units

Legion of the Damned ignores cover melta is very good against Wave serpents.
Allied Blood Angels with melta squads and/or Vanguard Vets who Assault on the drop with 5 pt meltabombs
Dark Eldar Haywire Scourges are a nice unit to run too if you can ally them.
So are Swooping hawks with haywire grenades.

Some other units that I don't know but imagine will concern me.
Necron scarabs will be unpleasant for a serpent haven't faced any though.
Demons have seekers ? which I believe have a long assault range.
Do Space Wolves have thunder wolf cavalry who also have a good assault range
Waaghing orcs.
Imperial Knights/Formations are fast enough and resilient too.

Assault drops Serpents better than shooting, getting there is tough. which brings up....
Objective placement. It is important.

Reserve stuff that shoots hard and place objectives near table edges for obvious reasons.

Try to keep objectives close to each other to negate Eldar speed and force them close to you to hold onto maelstrom points.

Eldar will counter against deep striking pods or a Lucius easily. If you don't think about careful placement the Eldar player will place his vehicles on spread out objectives to reduce the effectiveness of drop pods. He may even turtle and back to back serpents to weather the drop then move away 30 inches on a flat out next turn. He will occupy empty objectives and shoot you full of holes thus avoiding assault on the serpents. He may do that anyway but at least you might get maelstrom objective points.

Land raiders and Achilles models are not too good against an experienced Eldar player. With the high numbers of Imperial Knights around an Eldar player will usually have at least one squad of fire dragons, wraith guard or swooping hawks, often all of them. If there are allied Dark Eldar expect a venom full of fire dragons or some scourges deep striking to ruin your day too.

The serpent is not going away, it is the Eldars only transport, the latest round of FAQ's mean's that serpent shooting will stay unchanged. I hope some of this helps its just my experience and individual outcomes will vary depending on local meta.

[SnakeChisler]

I had another game against them the other week and its Legion of the Damned all the way

I run a Bike army and squads of legionaries dropping behind them forces them into areas they don't want to be in 5 man units of MM Melta Combi Melta are 155 each buff 1 squad up a bit and take the FNP relic to make them super sticky.

I tend to outflank or scout if I'm 1st turn, if you don't have the speed to take them on and quickly they'll run rings around you the big hit isn't just from the serpents its the fact that they gave them all rending I can't believe the designer who did that didn't realize how powerful it is

[Dave Mcturk]

I had another game against them the other week and its Legion of the Damned all the way

I run a Bike army and squads of legionaries dropping behind them forces them into areas they don't want to be in 5 man units of MM Melta Combi Melta are 155 each buff 1 squad up a bit and take the FNP relic to make them super sticky.

I tend to outflank or scout if I'm 1st turn, if you don't have the speed to take them on and quickly they'll run rings around you the big hit isn't just from the serpents its the fact that they gave them all rending I can't believe the designer who did that didn't realize how powerful it is

probably the same designer that didnt give them ST4 power swords, or grenades on close combat units, or FNP / IV saves on wraithguard/wraithlord [wraithknights can get it], or morale 10 on exarches, or A13 on the front of a falcon, or holofields or force shield on flyers or force shields on skimmers [walkers have them built in ].

neatly forcing eldar into being a 'rapid deployment' shooty army of one sort or another, or a camping army with lots of t3 troops or wraith units, im not complaining, the variety of builds is great fun to experiment with; and the cheese that is an army built around a full seer council and three wraithknights is very competitive; but the number of units that struggle even in a fluffy game is still annoying [Vypers / Banshees / Rangers / Quins / basic Wraithguard / Wraithlords / Crimson Paper Aeroplanes].

By far the easiest way to 'get' an eldar army is to nail it in close combat with something decent, the player who 'stays in the flying boxes' just needs to be blocked off objectives [tank shock has a maximum range of 12" in 7th]. The only basic eldar unit that can survive a 'rough' close combat is a buffed seer council {foot or jet}, almost everything else is T3 and dies horribly or has too few attacks to avoid being 'stuck' for the entire game.

The 'mini-rend' rule gives many eldar units some very effective shooting against small units [such as triple oblitz or 5 man termies]
but is reliant on 'luck plus' to tackle large units [like say fearless orc blobs, 15 man csm with FNP, necron wraith wall] - and most 'mini-rend' eldar weapons have a pretty short range - just soak up overwatch with some crud and get stuck in.

everyone goes on about eldar being higher/highest initiative - but at ST 3 they really struggle to do damage to T4 or T5.

with scorpions - which are ST4 in combat - just pull back and shoot - at unit size 10 and morale 9 they should run in three turns.

just remember if serpents use their op shield weapon [NB: our house rules: we have banned it:eek:] they cannot use their shield so bring one down per turn. you dont need pens. just glance them to death.

[John Bower]

Nope, I still think it's the WS that is the pig of the Eldar army, the rending guns and run/shoot or shoot/run I can hack. Also the proliferation of multilasers putting out more shots than any army can take safely is a pain. And if you think otherwise try facing my mate's Eldar army with 3 warwalkers all tooled with double ML's plus ML's on his 2 WS's and anything else he can put them on.

[Dave Mcturk]

Nope, I still think it's the WS that is the pig of the Eldar army, the rending guns and run/shoot or shoot/run I can hack. Also the proliferation of multilasers putting out more shots than any army can take safely is a pain. And if you think otherwise try facing my mate's Eldar army with 3 warwalkers all tooled with double ML's plus ML's on his 2 WS's and anything else he can put them on.

only 3 walkers ? lol. :)

yes we have lots of good units - but even serpentz chew up army point.

my personal favourite is still warp spiders. 21 ST 6 attacks with bounce in bounce out; and the bonus against vehicles is just too good.

[John Bower]

only 3 walkers ? lol. :)

yes we have lots of good units - but even serpentz chew up army point.

my personal favourite is still warp spiders. 21 ST 6 attacks with bounce in bounce out; and the bonus against vehicles is just too good.

But I've known his Warp Spiders have a really bad day - like when they misshaped and I put them in dangerous terrain on the far side of the board from my stuff. They had to walk across the board and even jumping took them so long they played no part in the game.

[Dave Mcturk]

But I've known his Warp Spiders have a really bad day - like when they misshaped and I put them in dangerous terrain on the far side of the board from my stuff. They had to walk across the board and even jumping took them so long they played no part in the game.

the tomb of doom. back in 5th . maxed out squad of spiders. 12" deviation right into the the middle of an 'impassable" 'tomb'. oh my.

but in 7th the chances of them mis-happing badly are far less. if using spiderz i always take an autarch to get them on as early as possible. if playing short edges i feel you have to start them on table - and as far up as possible [without getting them wiped out]. but for other deployments the long edge should be enough - 8 to 18" warp jump on. battle focus forward another >6". then shoot 12" and bounce. unless your opponent is still hiding in his own deployment zone they should have a target !

we've house ruled them up to 21pts - :eek:

i think the trick with serpentz [as an opponent] is just to keep them having to make a 'reactive' jink in 7th - we've banned the shield attack - but even with it if they are jinking it can only be snap shooting ?

[ShadowcatX]

It amuses me, Eldar SMU is a Tier 2 army list, yet rather than improving their own army lists and improving their own tactics people want to cry about it on the forums and house rule nerfs on the eldar players. Hopefully some day you'll get to play against an adamantine lance backed up by fearless blob squads, or a centurian star perhaps.

[40kGamer]

It amuses me, Eldar SMU is a Tier 2 army list, yet rather than improving their own army lists and improving their own tactics people want to cry about it on the forums and house rule nerfs on the eldar players. Hopefully some day you'll get to play against an adamantine lance backed up by fearless blob squads, or a centurian star perhaps.

I've actually watched semi-competent Eldar players dismantle the Lance. They are one of the few armies that can deal with it. The Lance is a god awful opponent to face any day... and I don't fancy the Serpent spam MSU Eldar army build as the top build for Eldar. There are several more balanced builds that are far better.

[Filthspew]

Unless you want to get hold of tons of models, buying or borrowing, I see only one option.
Playing the mission.
Methodically and without any remorse or shame.
Doesnt matter what you kill or what he kills, as long as you win the mission.

The other option is, models.

I would think power armor spam does a good job.
90 marines (tacticals and devastators) in 18 combat squads (18 targets) that all have to die as no fear will make them linger (stay away from the table edge).
And those Serpent shots will have to chew 3+ armor, having no AP that will reduce damage significantly.
And then, look towards flyer (spam).
Eldar are not known for massed sky fire options.

[Dave Mcturk]

Unless you want to get hold of tons of models, buying or borrowing, I see only one option.
Playing the mission.
Methodically and without any remorse or shame.
Doesnt matter what you kill or what he kills, as long as you win the mission.

The other option is, models.

I would think power armor spam does a good job.
90 marines (tacticals and devastators) in 18 combat squads (18 targets) that all have to die as no fear will make them linger (stay away from the table edge).
And those Serpent shots will have to chew 3+ armor, having no AP that will reduce damage significantly.
And then, look towards flyer (spam).
Eldar are not known for massed sky fire options.

mmm. not that i do it but - riptide ally / ies with anti air is insta death to one flyer per turn.

but i do regularly run reapers with st8 and tooled up exarch - dont have intercept ? - but still pop a flyer per turn with ignores jink
[and skimmers / bikes dont like them either - they can also pop a landraider if they are v. lucky]

or any eldar commander on a quad gun ?

i agree that even with overwatch / battle focus / bladestorm etc. what eldar still hate is 'up and at them' especially T5 or higher - even T4 causes problems once you get stuck in.

a PP proposed landraiders - but i think most eldar armies have at least one can opener - i normally run at least 3 - sometimes four.
[6 + dragons / 6 + spearlocks / 6+ hawks / 6+ shiny spears] any ONE of those units should pop a landraider [yes they may die in return but the metal box is gone]

the thread is about nerfing eldar - but its really only two or three things that make them superlative - the wave shield, [house rule it to ONE firing use only] bladestorm - [house rule it to AP3 for all varieties of Shurikats - Shurikannon stay AP2] and maybe 'battle-focus' - though very few units get a major benefit from it [spiderz / dragonz and warlockz probably the most] - we are contemplating making it D3 + 1" so that the 'fleet' re-roll doesnt turn it into a reasonable chance of >6".

then the codex itself is at fault - walkers are cheaper, fire further and gain better protection than vypers - [they even have battle focus !]

wraithknights are just SO MUCH BETTER than the now feeble wraithlord

and compared to the previous codex guardian troop types are awesome ! [still very vulnerable to odd things though]

i would gladly sacrifice bladestorm and battle focus [both 'nice' ideas that 'play' on eldars naturally high initiative values] -
for higher Leadership for commanders - [exarch types should be 10's ?] and automatic ST4 AP3 power sword options [a general 15 pts + for a ST 3 power sword/weapon is pretty putrid].

[DarkLink]

You kidding? Bladestorm and battle focus are far, far, far, far, far, far, far more useful than ld 10 on a couple of units. Exarch upgrades are mostly useless anyways, far too expemnsive for what you get.

[40kGamer]

You kidding? Bladestorm and battle focus are far, far, far, far, far, far, far more useful than ld 10 on a couple of units. Exarch upgrades are mostly useless anyways, far too expemnsive for what you get.

Totally agree. Plus Bladestorm and Battle Focus capture the feel of the Eldar very nicely and aren't responsible for the unbalance the Eldar enjoy in the current meta.

[Dave Mcturk]

You kidding? Bladestorm and battle focus are far, far, far, far, far, far, far more useful than ld 10 on a couple of units. Exarch upgrades are mostly useless anyways, far too expemnsive for what you get.

i think you guys missed the point i was trying to make.

bladestorm and battle focus are awesome, i regularly pop my dragons on 'speed' out of cover - fry a target and then with the benefit of a fleet re-roll vanish into cover again. the same with warlocks or 'jumping spiders.

the 'nerf' to eldar was to remove these abilities or at least tone them down. [perplexingly harlequins have no battle focus]

my 'trade' was to give eldar something in return for giving up their equivalent of 'combat drugs' - a leadership boost for already overcosted exarches and the requirement for at least the opportunity to 'buy' ST 4 power weapons.

bladestorm as written is especially useful against poor terminators or [shock horror] when fighting other eldar - making catapults only AP 3 would still balance them against marine equivalents - but stop them wiping the floor with heavy infantry.

the only thing more effective against heavy infantry - many of whom should perhaps have two wounds - is DE poison - and unless you play a foot-wraith army - no one else is really overly bothered by it as they still get full armour saves.

[40kGamer]

i think you guys missed the point i was trying to make.

bladestorm and battle focus are awesome

I got the gist of it but I don't find bladestorm and battle focus to be the unbalancing part of the Eldar book. Actually without both of these Guardians are essentially useless. (Not that the net min maxers take Guardians anyhow but I usually field 2-3 squads)

Serpents are 'the' unbalancing item in the book. I find 3 of them to be more then enough to slap most opponents around.

[DarkLink]

Well, serpents mixed with wraithknights. There are a few other lesser evils that could use a nerf, but battle focus and bladestorm actually make guardians and DAs somewhat useful in their own right.

[ShadowcatX]

bladestorm and battle focus are awesome, i regularly pop my dragons on 'speed' out of cover - fry a target and then with the benefit of a fleet re-roll vanish into cover again. the same with warlocks or 'jumping spiders.

the 'nerf' to eldar was to remove these abilities or at least tone them down. [perplexingly harlequins have no battle focus]

my 'trade' was to give eldar something in return for giving up their equivalent of 'combat drugs' - a leadership boost for already overcosted exarches and the requirement for at least the opportunity to 'buy' ST 4 power weapons.

bladestorm as written is especially useful against poor terminators or [shock horror] when fighting other eldar - making catapults only AP 3 would still balance them against marine equivalents - but stop them wiping the floor with heavy infantry.

the only thing more effective against heavy infantry - many of whom should perhaps have two wounds - is DE poison - and unless you play a foot-wraith army - no one else is really overly bothered by it as they still get full armour saves.

What's wrong with having a single ability be good against terminators? And why take the signature special rule of the eldar (battle focus) away from the eldar? Do you likewise take away ATSKNF away from marines? And how is having AP 2 good against other eldar when not a single thing in the eldar army has a 2+ save (other than perhaps some special characters no one uses)?

And again, let me point out that eldar are not dominating the tournament scene, so the need for any kind of balance adjustments is dubious at best.

[40kGamer]

Well, serpents mixed with wraithknights. There are a few other lesser evils that could use a nerf, but battle focus and bladestorm actually make guardians and DAs somewhat useful in their own right.

I always forget the wraithknights... I do surprising well against them but Serpents are the bane of my existence... when I'm not fielding my own Eldar army of course. :p

[DarkLink]

And again, let me point out that eldar are not dominating the tournament scene, so the need for any kind of balance adjustments is dubious at best.

They really were. Now Knights have supplanted them to a degree, but they're still heavily overrepresented.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

bladestorm as written is especially useful against poor terminators or [shock horror] when fighting other eldar - making catapults only AP 3 would still balance them against marine equivalents - but stop them wiping the floor with heavy infantry.

the only thing more effective against heavy infantry - many of whom should perhaps have two wounds - is DE poison - and unless you play a foot-wraith army - no one else is really overly bothered by it as they still get full armour saves.
And that is precisely the problem.

Considering Eldar and Dark Eldar are at least written like they're Yin and Yang opposites, why not make Bladestorm just confer Shred? Blasting giant monsters and other less numerous but heavy targets is more Dark Eldar's thing, but Kabalites suffer terribly against hordes because they just don't have the shot volume when you always wound on a 4+, no matter how wimpy your target. By contrast, Shred would make Shuriken weapons lawn mower their way through hordes, but generally plink off heavy armor and giant monsters.


They really were. Now Knights have supplanted them to a degree, but they're still heavily overrepresented.
The four most consistently-attending players in my local meta play Eldar, Dark Eldar, Taudar, and Knights. Short of a 36-Zoanthrope list, how are my Tyranids supposed to get back on the wagon?

[daboarder]

The four most consistently-attending players in my local meta play Eldar, Dark Eldar, Taudar, and Knights. Short of a 36-Zoanthrope list, how are my Tyranids supposed to get back on the wagon?

With an army of 6 mucloids and 6-8 Flyrants......?

[ShadowcatX]

They really were. Now Knights have supplanted them to a degree, but they're still heavily overrepresented.

Over represented, perhaps, but that speaks to their perceived power level, not their actual power level. The results of 5 tounaments from this month are posted over at torrent of fire, Eldar won 1. As did tau, imperial knights, I believe necrons and space marines, though the space marine tourny was highlander. Even if you discount that 1 in 4 wins for an army that is over represented is not a great showing.

[Dave Mcturk]

What's wrong with having a single ability be good against terminators? And why take the signature special rule of the eldar (battle focus) away from the eldar? Do you likewise take away ATSKNF away from marines? And how is having AP 2 good against other eldar when not a single thing in the eldar army has a 2+ save (other than perhaps some special characters no one uses)?

And again, let me point out that eldar are not dominating the tournament scene, so the need for any kind of balance adjustments is dubious at best.

appreciate the discussion - but it is on a thread entitled - 'please nerf the eldar".

and since 'battle focus' was only 'invented in 2014 - and i have played eldar since they were tiny metal space elves - its hardly valid to claim it as a 'signature ability'.

equally the new 'bladestorm' rule replaced an alternative rule of the same name but vastly less impact.

there are two essential sides to the 'nerf eldar debate' - and for 'formal competition' the current rules will obviously apply; but for 'friendly games' there is no reason why players shouldnt investigate ways of reducing the effectiveness of certain eldar units or rules. i am merely sharing suggestions that we have used that havent in any way unbalanced our games.

another poster made the point that an army with a seer council, three wraithknights and a few wave serpents is virtually unstoppable; but surely no one brings that combo to a pick up or friendly game without telling the opponent first ?

[DarkLink]

Over represented, perhaps, but that speaks to their perceived power level, not their actual power level. The results of 5 tounaments from this month are posted over at torrent of fire, Eldar won 1. As did tau, imperial knights, I believe necrons and space marines, though the space marine tourny was highlander. Even if you discount that 1 in 4 wins for an army that is over represented is not a great showing.

And until very recently, eldar had the highest win ratio of any army by a significant margin. And counting only first place as the absolute qualifier for power level is a mistake. There have been several major tournaments in the last year or so where the top ten had like 7 eldar armies in it.

[ShadowcatX]

Yes, until recently eldar dominated, partly because people hadn't adjusted and partly because waac players jumped on the eldar band wagon. But also recently we have had an edition change with several important rules changes that served to nerf the eldar, and people have learned how to fight them. If you look at current win percentages Eldar are not first, and only barely hold on to second.

Do eldar have a couple of units that are too good for their cost? Sure. Are eldar the only army in that position? Not hardly. That's no reason to call for army wide nerfs like the loss of the eldar only army wide special rule (which does make it a signature, regardless of what some people might claim) or for a nerf to their weakest units.

[Dave Mcturk]

Yes, until recently eldar dominated, partly because people hadn't adjusted and partly because waac players jumped on the eldar band wagon. But also recently we have had an edition change with several important rules changes that served to nerf the eldar, and people have learned how to fight them. If you look at current win percentages Eldar are not first, and only barely hold on to second.

Do eldar have a couple of units that are too good for their cost? Sure. Are eldar the only army in that position? Not hardly. That's no reason to call for army wide nerfs like the loss of the eldar only army wide special rule (which does make it a signature, regardless of what some people might claim) or for a nerf to their weakest units.

think its great that threads like this exist. as it shows the variety in thinking over the whole community.

as GW themselves admit this is a game for the players.

house ruling is as much part of wargaming as painting and arguing over rules !

i can run dozens of highly competive eldar builds - as can any player - without even using tau or DE allies.

again i stress this OP thread was about 'nerfing' eldar - and I appreciate the viewpoint which says 'learn to beat whats in front of you'.

BUT if a meta group is quite small and they dont have huge 30 year army collections to choose from then having a few simple 'nerf adjustments' may make their gaming experience a bit more enjoyable.

as shadow says - im not personally worried about battle focus - as it only benefits 3 or 4 eldar units and a sensible opponent draws them out and then fries them [unless they get 'invisibility' or 'super-shroud' :cool:]

bladestorm is a bit more lethal - but again as a PP says it gives cheap DAR troops some parity with DE poison when fighting heavy units such as Terminators or MC.

I would still be tempted at lower points values [say under 1500pts] to say that these abilities could at least be tempered - we have looked at D3 +1" battle focus [remember the eldar with battle focus are all 'fleet' as well] and at reducing 'blasdestorm' on catapaults to AP3 on '6'. On the opposite side of the coin; neither these tweaks or similar are going to 'destroy' eldar.

probably the most abusive unit for the entire codex is warp spiders - but they are dependant on reasonable terrain coverage.

would like to know from the OP exactly which units he has problems with and the points values they play at.

[ShadowcatX]

I am quite aware of the thread title, that doesn't mean I agree with the premice. Nor am I required to. As to you wishing you knew what the op has problems with, have you read the first post, because I'm pretty sure I know what he has a problem with.

And if someone can't compete because they purchased bad units and didn't plan their list ahead of time, or won't give up fielding their favorite bad unit, that's not the eldar player's fault. Maybe a few beatings at the table will make people think out their purchases and help us get away from a culture of "I know is bad but I'm going to use it anyways, and now that I can't win let's nerf everything down to where I can beat it with my bad units."

And yes, I am aware that battle focus units are generally fleet, that's called synergy. I'm sorry, if someone isn't good enough to beat guardians, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

[Nite]

What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them ;) Any advices and help?

[Katharon]

What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them ;) Any advices and help?

Use the "Imperial Armour Book One - Second Edition Imperial Guard" Armored Battalion list. Upgrade some tanks to use beast-hunter shells and you can instant-kill those wraith knights in a single shot. It's either that or pile on with as many Veteran squads and plasma guns as you can field and go for broke.

[ShadowcatX]

Allied in Imperial knights could help as well. And wave serpents with a 2+ jink mean nothing if you ignore cover. Also, jinking itself cuts down a wave serpent's fire power considerably, once one has jinked move to the next target.

[JMichael]

What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them ;) Any advice and help?

Eldar has been my primary army since 2nd edition (boy did they have some shenanigans then! Warp Spider Exarch with Fast Shot, Bright Lance, and 2++) and though I often win with them when I want too, there is definitely a way to deal with any list.
Part of this depends on what army you have, as some armies can more easily deal with others. A Dark Eldar army can chew up WraithKnights with all of their poisoned weapons (Splinter rifles are still poisoned, right?) and Dark Lances.
That type of Eldar list still has its linchpin, The 2 WraithKnights or the Wave Serpents. Ignore the rest, and focus on taking down one of those two groups.
Lets say you play Tyranids. Play a horde list, those WraithKnights can insta death your MCs from range. But 20 'gaunts can tarpit any WraithKnight! That's an 80pt unit neutralizing a 240+ unit for several turns or more! Flying MC's can Vector Strike those Wave Serpents and Hive Guard can also help to drop the Serpents.

And for your AM: Vendetta's, Basilisks, Leman Russ's with LasCannons (Vanquishers), and heavy weapon teams. Give him too many targets to deal with. If you only have 2-4 really killy expensive units it is too easy for both WraithKnights to focus on them. Consider Inquisitor Coteaz attached to a large infantry platoon. His ability allows his unit to immediately fire at any enemy unit arriving from reserves (Warp Spiders). Deploy your tanks so the Warp Spiders cannot deep strike in your rear arc and that your Front Armor is facing most of the Eldar Force and your side armor is obscured, even by another tank, to get that 5++ save. Since this will likely put your force close together, focus everything on the WraithKnights first. Bring them down before they can close in. If deploying second, then do so max distance from the WK's.
The Wave Serpents will have a tough time with the Leman Russ armor, and unless they have Bright Lances wont' be able to penetrate your front or side armor at all.

[Nite]

Hi, sorry it took me some time to respond - I've written the reply 3 times now, and due to cpu problems everything got deleted :P Anyway!

@ Katharon - Sadly, my playgroup is not using IA. As for the vets - I've tried that, but their numbers got severely decreased by shadow weavers and some serpents. So when the wraithknights got into their range it wasn't enough fire power. Also successfuly cast invisibility on the knights didn't help either.

@ShadowcatX - I've tried that actually, but got quite unlucky with my ion shield saves, and my opponent got to roll those "6"s even after jinking, with the scatterlaser re-roll. With the power giving everything rending against the knight, he got rid of it in turn 2. In the meantime warpspiders got rid of my tanks.

@JMichael - Vendetta's got shot easily with seprents last time I played. They were jinking and firing snapshots anyway, and with the re-roll it got nasty. And all of the lascannon's shots were saved with that 2+ cover (stealth bulb from farseer). I haven't yet tried the Heavy Weapon Team spam. They seem too fragile. Although I might try that with all of the other things you've mentioned. I was testing conscript blobs most of the time recently, maybe it's time to get back to good old, all-shooty army.

Thank you all for the answers and advices!

I was also crazily considering ratlings against the wraithknight and culexus assassin in vendetta to counter the farseers. What do you think? :)

[Da Gargoyle]

I'd match my wave serpent against Typhon. Of course it would be armed with bright lances Crystal Targeting Matrix and a squad of Fire Dragons. By no means a guaranteed kill but over two or three turns I am sure both sides would be having a solid go. The Matrix allows a single weapon to fire at normal BS after moving flat out. What is the points cost of Typhon by the way?

Sorry, I was having a blond moment just. This reply was to Denzark's post back on page 3, for some reason it escaped my attention there were 4 more pages of posts.

[Da Gargoyle]

Hi Nite, I agree with the other lads. AM have a heap of stuff to deal with Eldar. My son always fields Hydras against me, if it is a big points game two squadrons of two. They ignore cover and pump out a stack of S7 shots which can whittle away the HP on the skimmers.

Put a single platoon of 3 squads with flamers behind your tanks, warp spiders wont look so hot then. Either heavy weapons batteries or Vets against the wraith lords or knights, but snipers is actually a good idea, especially the vindicare which I believe rends at a ridiculously low score. And if you zoom instead of hover the Vendetta or Valkyrie becomes more difficult to hit as Eldar have limited dedicated anti air. And what they do have costs lots of points. As I recall only walkers and reapers have flak missiles.

These are ideas for starters. You might also want to roll the scores you need on your dice throws, Khain knows I wish I did.

What size points games do you play?

[Nite]

Hi Da Gargoyle, thanks for answering!

Most of the time we're playing around 1850 pts. battles.

Hydras would be an awesome counterunit against Eldar, unforunately they only have skyfire not ignores cover. In the previous version of the codex they could ignore the jink rule of skimmers, but now they're just anti-aircraft.

As for Vendettas - Most of the time wave serpents are shooting at them because after jinking they're firing snapshots and hitting on 6's anyway. With the scatterlaser re-rolls, and sheer amount of S7 shield shots they can be devastating.