End Time thoughts

[Tepogue]

For the first time in several years I am actually entertaining the thought of dusting off my old Warhammer Fantasy Battles armies. The reason for this is The End Times. I have not bought the book, but hope to snag a 2nd reprint. Meanwhile I've read and listened to every podcast I can listen through my work's firewall.

Regardless, as I listen and form opinions, I cannot help but draw comparisons to The Hours Heresy. I'm thinking that the new army structure (50% Lords) is designed for us to see a wave of Primarch-like models. I consider Nagash to be the first of these. He is a huge kit. He is game changing. He has good durability. How different is Nagash in WFB to a Primarch in a Hors Heresy army? My opinion is there is not much difference at a fundamental level.

What does this mean? For me it means we are likely to see a new large kit Archaeon for the second book. This will include a combining of the three chaos army lists similar to the new Undead Legion. I also suspect book 2-3 will be the dark times. Book 3 will probably see an elf collaboration. Whomever draws the Sword of Khaine will be the big kit for that book. If book 4 is the end of the cycle then I suspect a Sigmar reborn. This should bring about a combined Empire, Brettonian, Dwarf and perhaps Ogre army.

If the above are true, then players are will be encouraged to expand their armies and pick up these center piece models. This will of course increase sales.

Now this is pure conjecture, and may not pan out. I know this path leads down the "forge a narrative" path. Tournament players will try and "fix' the system. I believe this is folly. I hope to see fantastic armies with awe inspiring centerpieces. More narrative players will have many high and lows, much internet complaining will ensue. I think these will be interesting times.

The other problem with what I have written is that not every army is accounted for. I see Skaven and Orcs & Goblins being wild cards. The Fell Blade is gone so how the Shaven will proceed is unknown. I could see a new large Vermin Lord coming, but that's perhaps more wishlisting than reasonable hope. The O&G as always will get in the way, win some, lose some and in the end fall apart.

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

As someone that tends to creat their own narrative for linking battles with friends into campaigns over just having standalone battles, I'm very excited about the end times providing me with what is essentially a groundwork to build my own end of the world scenario to play through in, I plan to combine it with elements from the "warhammer battlefields" digital campaign expansion series in home rules for a bit of fun with a couple friends, and the 50% lords and 50% heroes as long as 25% is core means I can use thanquol and boneripper in 900Ish point games (I don't have the army book in front of me and just know they are more then 450points)

[Reldane]

I'm not a fan of encouraging players to sink so many points into a single model, as it leads to very binary games. either your opponent can deal with it (cannons for example) and you lose half your army in the first volley, or your opponent can't deal with it and a giant unstoppable character rampages the board. in that regard Nagash is closer to a knight than a primarch in 40k, I just don't see how such things lend themselves to fun games for both players.

[joosterandom]

It's probably worth noting that, unlike 40k, Fantasy actually has a narrative that doesn't depend on being stagnant. The history of the Fantasy universe isn't as rich as 40k, but the fact that it's on a much more local scale means that major characters are more likely to cross paths and create their own history in the moment.

[Mr Mystery]

I feel End Times trumps Heresy simply because the outcome is unknown.

[Reldane]

I would have to disagree regarding the richness of the warhammer world. not only does each race have a detailed history reaching back from 2000 years to the dawn of the world but it also has many unique aspects. for example, high and dark elves although associated to order and destruction, their disagreement is purely political two people both with reasonable claims to the throne, add in wood elves who split from the high elves to avoid the political nature of the elf world. Tomb kings give not only non evil undead but also one of the best representations of the Egyptian faiths interpretation of death. we have the stone age ogre kingdoms forced to endure a mass migration due to the arrival of a god that has imprinted itself in the minds of every ogre.

with some of the more recent army books a lot of the flavour and uniqueness of the Warhammer world has been lost, most notably the most recent Ogre Kingdom's book which attempts to change them from a primitive culture trying to make sense of the world and compelled to wonder the world to a low intelligence culture that likes to fight cause fighting is good. (and don't get me started on the sudden inclusion of Slaanesh eating elf souls)

[Brother Sutek]

I would have to disagree regarding the richness of the warhammer world. not only does each race have a detailed history reaching back from 2000 years to the dawn of the world but it also has many unique aspects. for example, high and dark elves although associated to order and destruction, their disagreement is purely political two people both with reasonable claims to the throne, add in wood elves who split from the high elves to avoid the political nature of the elf world. Tomb kings give not only non evil undead but also one of the best representations of the Egyptian faiths interpretation of death. we have the stone age ogre kingdoms forced to endure a mass migration due to the arrival of a god that has imprinted itself in the minds of every ogre.

with some of the more recent army books a lot of the flavour and uniqueness of the Warhammer world has been lost, most notably the most recent Ogre Kingdom's book which attempts to change them from a primitive culture trying to make sense of the world and compelled to wonder the world to a low intelligence culture that likes to fight cause fighting is good. (and don't get me started on the sudden inclusion of Slaanesh eating elf souls)

Didn't like how they ,not so subtly, changed the fluff of the WE's myself. Most of the new books have had things changed to make the army have more drama but IMO adds unwanted drama that often makes no sense other than a new writer wanting to put their own spin on established fluff.

[Reldane]

new writer wanting to put their own spin on established fluff.

I believe Matt Ward said he wrote all the elf books at once (possibly one reason they all play like high elves now) even though he is only credited on the high and dark elf book. I suspect however from reading the fluff of my new dark elf books that he had only a basic understanding of the Druchii lore, most of it is copied over from the Grav Thorp army book, only removing credibility to the prophecy of demise as well as another 2 lines.

I end up keeping a lot of my old army books due to their for the most part vastly more detailed lore.

[Archon Charybdis]

Didn't like how they ,not so subtly, changed the fluff of the WE's myself. Most of the new books have had things changed to make the army have more drama but IMO adds unwanted drama that often makes no sense other than a new writer wanting to put their own spin on established fluff.

I'm curious how you think this was the case in the WE book?

[Erik Setzer]

I'm not a fan of encouraging players to sink so many points into a single model, as it leads to very binary games. either your opponent can deal with it (cannons for example) and you lose half your army in the first volley, or your opponent can't deal with it and a giant unstoppable character rampages the board. in that regard Nagash is closer to a knight than a primarch in 40k, I just don't see how such things lend themselves to fun games for both players.

In the past week, I've played a game with Nagash, and I've heard of a game with him, that kind of highlights how "messy" he can make games.

In the first one, a friend wanted to try playing against my Undead Legions (I am ecstatic about being able to use Undead together again). We went 2500 points, to have a nice battle. He borrowed someone's Empire, had a decent list (big block of Halberdiers using a banner that doubles their rank bonus, big block of Knights, two cannons, some other various units, and three Wizards, including a Light Wizard and a Death Wizard). He wanted to try playing against Nagash and even offered to put in his half-built Nagash model, so I agreed to modify my list for that. I had Nagash, a level 4 Liche Priest (Lore of Nehekhara, baby!), a Wight BSB, large block of Skeletons, two blocks of 16 Skeleton Archers, a Terrorgheist, and four Morghast Archai. The first thing I immediately noticed is that Nagash left a hole in my army and would need to summon stuff to fill it quickly. This wasn't too bad, I managed to bring in a block of Black Knights (right beside the cannons) and a level 3 Necromancer. Terrorgheist took out a cannon but got hit hard by the other before the Black Knights could charge it. Thanks to the scenario's random army placement, his army was actually in a perfectly split formation with mine being in the center of the table, so he was able to come at me from two sides. Purple Sun of Xereus killed off the Terrorgheist and snuffed some Skeletons and the new Necromancer. In the next two turns, Nagash couldn't get off a spell (either rolled too low or was dispelled), and I watched as most of my army started crumbling. The one thing that saved me was that I saved up a couple tokens and managed to use them to summon Mannfred onto the table. Nagash and Mannfred managed to scare the Knights right off the board (yay, Terror!), and Mannfred got into combat with the large block of Halberdiers, pretty much the only thing left on that side. Mannfred was losing combat but Nagash kept him in the fight, and I finally just threw Nagash into the combat knowing that with Mannfred's help they could actually take out the unit. At that point, knowing the result, we ended the game so someone else could have the table we were using.

If I hadn't summoned Mannfred in there, I think I would have lost, with a nice chunky of my opponent's army still left. It wouldn't be normal wounds doing him in so much as combat res, because a large block of Halberdiers with double rank bonus (+6), standard, and BSB (total of +8, until they start losing rank bonus) is not easy for Undead to cope with, you have to kill a LOT of guys to beat that res, and Nagash alone isn't likely to do that. After that battle, I decided Nagash was too hit-or-miss for me. In the 1-on-1 games I've played with a "standard" Undead Legions army, it was over a lot quicker, as I had an entire army from the start, and was only relying on magic to bring guys back and buff them.

The second game, I wasn't able to witness personally, but I did hear of the result... and the result of that result. A player was using Nagash against Chaos Warriors, and was in great shape to win the game. The Chaos Warrior player, in desperation, threw out Purple Sun of Xereus on Nagash... and the Undead player ended up rolling a 6. Poof! 1000 points snuffed out like that, victory completely torn from him. He didn't take it nearly as well as he usually takes defeat. (Again, I didn't witness it, but he actually felt the need to apologize publicly to his opponent. Normally, if someone actually beats him, even the local tournament beatstick player, he just shrugs it off merrily and figures out how to come back with a better strategy.)

So... yeah. Nagash is very much all-or-nothing. It's not as bad with a character like the Mortarchs, and Archaon might not be so bad. But WFB is a game where a single die roll can wipe out a massively expensive character. They will help you either win big or lose big, not much room for in-between.

[Locke66]

most notably the most recent Ogre Kingdom's book which attempts to change them from a primitive culture trying to make sense of the world and compelled to wonder the world to a low intelligence culture that likes to fight cause fighting is good.

That's interesting as it possibly hints that we will see an Ogre Kingdom + Orc and Goblin merge by increasing their compatibility. I know some people think they will not be reducing the amount of races but I think it's entirely possible they will do it to narrow down the amount of product lines they need to support in the long term. If the rumors are true of the next edition of Warhammer being a "final" copy then this makes a degree of sense.

It could eventually end up looking something like:

Human Empire - Empire dominant with aspects of Bretonia and Kislev
Undead Legions - Vampires Counts dominant with aspects of Tomb Kings
Orcs and Goblins - Orc & Goblin dominant with Ogres
Chaos Hordes - Chaos Warriors, Beastmen & Chaos Daemons
Elves - High Elf, Dark Elf and Wood Elf
Skaven
Dwarfs
Lizardmen

Obviously there is some major lore stretching there to make the pieces fit but I think it could be done. We have already seen some of this playing out in the first book and supporting material (Kinslayer says the Empire has effectively annexed the remains of Kislev) and Nagash has united the Undead under one banner. The Skaven, Dwarfs and Lizardmen are the obvious odd ones out without any obvious real comparable races to merge with. I actually question what they are doing with Lizardmen. Abandoning Lustria seems like a death sentence as there is no-where else that obviously would support the army... I think potentially they are getting discontinued :(.

[Carlo Riolo]

I too like the thought of linking battles, creating narratives and giving purpose to individual battles with WHFB. And I hope the End Times is a shot of adrenaline WHFB needs.

I agree with sinking too many points into one model... your list becomes a one trick pony. I've won against Nagash, and quite obviously found he is heavily dependent upon the magic phase. WHFB magic phase may be a little broken at this point (thinking the 40k style might be better suited for heavy magic armies). So specifically Nagash has his draw backs for a player. I'll be interested to see how the Nurgle fatties do, and where their weaknesses reside.

I like Erik's perception on an all or nothing with Nagash, but that might be a unique game play people are looking for? Maybe, maybe not.

Being an empire player, I've always tried to have versatility in my lists and cover most game phases with some offense and some defense. I think the End Times will cater to the player that likes heavy magic, or heavy combat, or whatever. I, for one, like the thought of End Times being exaggerated battles in the name of Chaos and anything can happen. I think WHFB has become bland for many of us, and this should help stir things up. Granted.. game weight mechanics will be thrown off until each army has a way of dealing with mega models. But is that not the challenge we've all been waiting for? Don't we want goliaths that we can over come and stand on top saying "SEE I DID IT!"

Taking a step back, it seems that the notion of "overpowered" spans both table top and electronic gaming. The End Times certainly sets up some armies for being in a position of power until things balance out once again. But for me, facing an overpowered opponent makes me think of their weakness and how they're truly underpowered as a matter of perspective. (Erik's purple sun example). Granted, I might lose more than I win, but it is that gameplay engagement that is appealing on the table top.

[BeardMonk]

It could eventually end up looking something like:

Human Empire - Empire dominant with aspects of Bretonia and Kislev
Undead Legions - Vampires Counts dominant with aspects of Tomb Kings
Orcs and Goblins - Orc & Goblin dominant with Ogres
Chaos Hordes - Chaos Warriors, Beastmen & Chaos Daemons
Elves - High Elf, Dark Elf and Wood Elf
Skaven
Dwarfs
Lizardmen



Genuinely, I would hate for this to come to pass. By removing or merging armies you remove the unique abilities and background for each of the armies. It would make WHF more 40K-ish where lots of things are just another Space marine variant.

I really hope that with the EoT GW’s expands on and refreshes all the races (Bret’s where art thou?). After Warhammer Forge re-introduced Chaos Dwarfs, all the races are represented again. I hope that they are able to push forward and give WHF the shine it once had.

Id also like to see Dog of War/Mercenaries being re-introduced. That’s a major piece of fluff, character and background that swept up some of the minor human kingdoms and provinces. In a land of eternal war, mercenaries and freebooters would be a fact of life.

[Archon Charybdis]

I'd happily see a reduction/combination of factions if it means we see those factions updated more regularly, and see more supplemental stuff for Fantasy. If the new End Times novel is any indication, it seems pretty likely that a combined Empire and Bretonnian faction will be a reality.

[flipchuck]

Id also like to see Dog of War/Mercenaries being re-introduced. That’s a major piece of fluff, character and background that swept up some of the minor human kingdoms and provinces. In a land of eternal war, mercenaries and freebooters would be a fact of life.

I would like to see that as well. GW could do a "re-boot" of it by using all the left over units and armies from destroyed cities and armies from "End of times" and have rules for them to form mercenarie armies. So at least the two armies that was nailed hard like "Dogs of war" and such and the Kalsiv (sp?). You could also use it as an excuse for "army mashup" where you could take different units from different armies and use them together. And this way, you could finally have the rules and fluff to do it with.