Tank Shock/Ramming and Transports

[slxiii]

Alright, this came up in a game a day or two ago, and I wanted to see what everyone else thought.
I had three rhinos lined upfront to back, and in front of them was a battlewagon with a deffrolla. The deffrolla rammed the first rhino, destroying it. Because he rolled a "Explodes!" result, the squad would be placed in the imprint of the hull, correct? and then the ork tank would have to tank shock through the now disembarked squad before reaching the next rhino?
Also, as the destroyed vehicle counts as difficult and dangerous terrain, does the ork tank need to test to see if it is immobilized before it reaches the destroyed rhino's occupants?

Thanks in advance!

[sicarius2424]

i would say it would becuase it is going through the terrain to get at the marines but thats just my opinion hope it helps

[Shavnir]

Its important to note that exploded vehicles don't leave wrecks, they leave optional craters. Near as I can tell it would hit the squad and force a difficult terrain test on the battlewagon.

Do note that the deffrolla doesn't affect rams btw.

[Nabterayl]

Alright, this came up in a game a day or two ago, and I wanted to see what everyone else thought.
I had three rhinos lined upfront to back, and in front of them was a battlewagon with a deffrolla. The deffrolla rammed the first rhino, destroying it. Because he rolled a "Explodes!" result, the squad would be placed in the imprint of the hull, correct? and then the ork tank would have to tank shock through the now disembarked squad before reaching the next rhino?
Also, as the destroyed vehicle counts as difficult and dangerous terrain, does the ork tank need to test to see if it is immobilized before it reaches the destroyed rhino's occupants?

Thanks in advance!
The passengers of the first Rhino would be placed where the first Rhino used to be, yes.
If the battlewagon still had distance to go on its ram move, it would tank shock the passengers, yes.
Exploded vehicles leave behind either area Difficult Terrain or a crater (though most people, I think, would count that crater as Difficult Terrain). Before the battlewagon tank shocked the passengers of the first Rhino it would have to test for Dangerous Terrain because it was moving through Difficult Terrain, yes.

[BuFFo]

Because he rolled a "Explodes!" result, the squad would be placed in the imprint of the hull, correct?

Correct.


and then the ork tank would have to tank shock through the now disembarked squad before reaching the next rhino?

Correct.


Also, as the destroyed vehicle counts as difficult and dangerous terrain, does the ork tank need to test to see if it is immobilized before it reaches the destroyed rhino's occupants?

Correct.


Do note that the deffrolla doesn't affect rams btw.

That is how his group plays, so the answer would be 'yes, the Defolla does effect Rams'.

[Shavnir]

That is how his group plays, so the answer would be 'yes, the Defolla does effect Rams'.

Sure, as long as both parties agree to house rules like that I see nothing wrong with that.

[slxiii]

The passengers of the first Rhino would be placed where the first Rhino used to be, yes.
If the battlewagon still had distance to go on its ram move, it would tank shock the passengers, yes.
Exploded vehicles leave behind either area Difficult Terrain or a crater (though most people, I think, would count that crater as Difficult Terrain). Before the battlewagon tank shocked the passengers of the first Rhino it would have to test for Dangerous Terrain because it was moving through Difficult Terrain, yes.

that's pretty much what i thought. Now if the tank was open topped, could a unit assault out of it after the tank shock? I couldnt find anything in the transport or tank shock section about this, but it would seem that you could not...

[slxiii]

Sure, as long as both parties agree to house rules like that I see nothing wrong with that.

Not so much "agree" as "can't find a reason why not". My ork opponents always point out the "ramming is a special tank shock" thing... I think it's a bit cheesy and rules-bending, but hey.

[Lerra]

Your opponent could only tank shock you during his turn. On your turn, the unit could assault regardless of what kind of vehicle it was in before it exploded (assuming you pass your pinning check after the vehicle explodes).

[slxiii]

Your opponent could only tank shock you during his turn. On your turn, the unit could assault regardless of what kind of vehicle it was in before it exploded (assuming you pass your pinning check after the vehicle explodes).

sorry, i should have been more specific. if the ork vehicle is open topped, can the orks disembark/assault out of it after the tank shock is complete?

[Shavnir]

that's pretty much what i thought. Now if the tank was open topped, could a unit assault out of it after the tank shock? I couldnt find anything in the transport or tank shock section about this, but it would seem that you could not...

Assuming the vehicle still only moved a distance that allowed the passengers to disembark; yes.


Not so much "agree" as "can't find a reason why not". My ork opponents always point out the "ramming is a special tank shock" thing... I think it's a bit cheesy and rules-bending, but hey.

Deffrollas only affect tank shocks. If rams truly were tank shocks then they would be forced to stop an inch from hitting a vehicle. Since they do not have a rule that overrides the "stop when within an inch of an enemy vehicle" part of tank shocking it seems that ramming, while functionally similar is not bound by the same set of rules as tank shocking.

[Nabterayl]

sorry, i should have been more specific. if the ork vehicle is open topped, can the orks disembark/assault out of it after the tank shock is complete?
Yes, absolutely, assuming the ork vehicle moved no more than 12".


Not so much "agree" as "can't find a reason why not". My ork opponents always point out the "ramming is a special tank shock" thing... I think it's a bit cheesy and rules-bending, but hey.
If you're interested, the local thread on the subject is here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=788&). It was pretty civil, well argued by both sides (in my opinion) and over in 60 posts, which as I understand it is fairly concise for this particular argument. Ought to give you plenty of ammunition if you feel like your ork opponents are treating you unfairly.

If you don't feel like reading 60 pages, the crux of each argument comes down to this:
Deffrollas don't affect vehicles* because they only affect tank shocks, and you can't tank shock a vehicle because page 68 says that even tanks stop within 1" of enemy vehicles when making a tank shock move.
Deffrollas do affect vehicles when making a ram, because page 69 says that all rams are a special type of tank shock, and thus all rams are tank shocks, even though not all tank shocks are rams.
As you'll see from the thread, I think #2 is the correct reading of the rulebook, but I'm sure you and your opponents are more than capable of deciding for yourself. For your benefit, though, I should note, absent a house rule, even if your opponents subscribe to the "deffrollas work in rams" argument, you should be sure that they are actually ramming. Rams differ from regular tank shocks in that a ramming vehicle must move as far as possible, and cannot shoot afterwards (whereas in a regular tank shock you can move as little as 1" and can potentially fire afterward, if you moved slow enough). If somebody tries to deffroll your tanks by only moving 6", or tries to shoot after deffrolling your tanks, you should bring up page 69 even if your group has decided that deffrollas work during rams.

* Deffrollas do, of course, affect walkers that elect to Death or Glory; everybody agrees about that.

[slxiii]

and what if it's maximum movement brings it past a table edge/into impassable terrain?

[Nabterayl]

Then you'd stop. Surely nobody reads page 68 or page 69 to say that a ramming vehicle can run off the table or go through impassable terrain. Page 69 is quite clear that you can only ram if you declare you're moving at your highest possible speed, but it doesn't say you must actually move that number of inches. Nothing in the ramming (or tank shocking) rules override the normal rules for impassable terrain or table edges.

But if you declare a ram (with or without a deffrolla), you can't shoot afterward, even if for some reason you don't get to move your full distance. This is true even if you only get to move 1", or indeed if you don't get to move at all (maybe you misjudged things and there isn't room to pivot, for instance). There are two reasons for this consequence. One, no non-walker vehicle can fire anything after it's declared it's moving at top speed.* Two, page 69 explicitly points out that you cannot shoot after executing a ram.

* This is just like normal vehicle movement. When you move a vehicle, you have to declare whether you're moving at Combat, Cruising, or Flat Out speed before you move the vehicle. If you declare you're moving a battlewagon at Cruising speed but then get immobilized by Dangerous Terrain after only 1" of movement, you still count as having moved at Cruising speed for that turn, and thus cannot fire any weapons.

[MarshalAdamar]

Nice posts Nabterayl short and sweet and full of usable information. I use deff rollas from time to time and have gone back and forth on their use and your post really helped me understand both sides of the debate :)

[Shavnir]

While it isn't a rules point I'd also like to mention that as long as you roll a 2 on the deffrolla it is better than any other single non-Apocalypse vehicle in the game against any armor value in terms of immobilizing / destroying. If I remember right its about second or third best if you roll a 1.

[Denzark]

"6 Destroyed - Explodes ... The vehicle is removed and replaced with an area of [I][B]difficult[I][B]ground"

Whereas 5 - becomes a wreck - then BRB page 62 states they are difficult and dangerous. Think for an explosion you will only get the difficult ground test - but will happily take another different reference?

[Nabterayl]

Page 57:


Vehicles are not slowed down by difficult terrain, but treat all difficult terrain as dangerous.

[Denzark]

Good spot Nabby thanks for that ref.