WYSIWYG - how far do you go?

[Denzark]

Hey guys.

This could equally have applied to a rules question or even general - but it is about how much I am willing (or can be arsed) to model.

In terms of WYSIWYG, most people agree you don't have to see each individual frag grenade (most reasonable people).

But what about the reverse - stuff that is on the model, but you don't want to pay the points for? First example - track guards on my panzers. Could be used to show extra armour, so are you happy for them to be on constantly and me to use them as and when I pay the points? Would you be happy for me to simply pay the points for extra armour with no extra modelling (the effect is some new anti-spalling applique internally?)

Now a little harder - sponsons. I buy a lot off ebay, sometimes they have sponsons on. Depending on the level of butchery of the original modeller, they can be a pig to get off cleanly. So, if I leave them on and tell you at the start of a game there are no sponsons, are you happy? (targetting wise you probably have to go for the hull not banners antennae etc - would a sponson sticking out from cover preclude this?) I don't do magnets by the way, and normally glue all my weapons.

Cam nets - most of my vehicles have a roll on them - made from some nice gauzey stuff with a mixture of flock and dried tea (only Earl Grey for my troops!) are you happy for me to point to a rolled up cam net and pay the points one game but not the next?

Last one on this subject - enclosed compartments. I am going for some for my artillery but don't want to use them all the time, or fanny around with the plasticard. What about if I model a box on the back, similar to the forgeworld comms, and call it a force field generator - when I used enclosed compartments it is in use but when I don't have the points it sits looking pretty - after all if a rosarius can do it a big enough box could figuratively do it for a basilisk or some such.

Thanks for any comments (I am going to continue to do it anyway but interested to see what people think of these concepts)

[Legoklods]

I'm perfectly cool with all of the above.
What concerns me is special and heavy weapons, and of cause HQ weapons.

[Cryl]

Yeah we tend to be fairly flexible about what extras a model has as long as the basics are WYSIWYG. I tend to model all my Sgt. models with powerfists but rarely use them in game, likewise all my rhinos have the forgeworld reinforced armour kits (the vehicle just looks so much better) but again it's rare to put extra armour on a rhino for me, so I know where you're coming from.

For me the only time you'd have to be spot on is if you were building a tournament army.

[sonsoftaurus]

I wouldn't have a problem with any of those things, as long as they are consistent within the same battle. Meaning, don't say those two tanks with sponsons have them but that one with sponsons doesn't, while this one with cam net has it but these other three with cam nets don't...etc.

[lobster-overlord]

I ususal go with "you can go down, but not up" in my modelling. For instance, If it has a power weapon, you can pay for it as a power weapon, or leave it a CCW. If they have a pistol, it can be what it is or one that is cheaper (not more expensive).

[Denzark]

Lobster - this seems fair.

[david5th]

As long as you explain it to your opponent, it all seems fair.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Akkon Sek]

I ususal go with "you can go down, but not up" in my modelling. For instance, If it has a power weapon, you can pay for it as a power weapon, or leave it a CCW. If they have a pistol, it can be what it is or one that is cheaper (not more expensive).

Seconded. In my opinion this is the best of all possible options.

I can press coal into diamonds by sitting on them, and this satisfies that... tendency in me.

-A

[Loki73]

I am a stikler of WYSIWYG to myself. An opponent if he or she is proxying id rather they tell me before the game begins. That is reasonable.

[sangrail777]

I do this too. Mainly with me Assault troops. I have 2 marines in each ten man sq. modeled with plasma pistols and holstered boltpistols on thier hips so if I don't have the points then I don't use them. Of course I go with all or nothing so I either pay for all the plasma pistols or non at all. My SGT's with power weapons all have melta bombs but again only pay if i can afford them all.

[Herald of Nurgle]

I usually know what I want lmao, but when I down I will use Lobster's idea.
Certainly don't model grenades and such unless forced to on models - I just don't like the look tbh and it makes me feel like my models are cluttered.

Not actually assembled enough tanks to point out what I WYSIWYG there lmao (i'm more of an infantryman) but TBPH I don't usually use options... Just bareback.

[BuFFo]

I go as far as I want as long as it is not confusing to my opponent.

[AirHorse]

Im totaly fine with the scenarios youve outlined, generally im fine with any kind of proxying or lack of adherence to wysiwyg as long as its clearly outlined before the game comences.

I guess it depends on what kind of games you play in more often, if you play casual games where you are more interested in the general atmosphere then model them the way you think looks best. If you play in more serious games since you enjoy the game more competitively then model them accurate to how you field them.

With my own modeling I generally model things the way I would want them to be if I played in a tournament(which i never have, and as yet dont plan to :P) so that things work for all situations. When I play games and i want to make some alterations that I dont have spare models etc to sub in for I just clear it with my oponent beforehand and keep things simple(like making sure special weapons models are at least equiped with something that makes them standout from the squad so its easy to remember the proxy).

My brother has taken to playing guard with the remenants of my ancient guard army and so he is often short of guard models when he fields more infantry heavy lists, his general tack is to keep anything thats being proxy'd the same if its proxying the same thing. i.e he fields basic guardsmen using orks, with all the normal guardsmen being plain old shoota boys, and the seargents as a slugga boy and he does the same for every "ork conscript" squad he uses so its clear :)

Hope this insight into how proxys go in my games help :)

[MarshalAdamar]

Sounds reasonable to me.

I would offer that the extra effort to get some rare earth magnets and magnetize the sponsons would be worth it.

Other than that if the model is close and consistent I usually over look it but if it’s a unit or model that my opponent is using every week I’m going to ask them to either get the right model/s or convert the one/s they have so they’re accurate.

As for little things like extra armor and smoke launchers etc as long as I know ahead of time its fine but after 4 games with your chimera standing in for a vindicator I’m going to get tired of it.

[Lerra]

Proxies for casual games are fine. In my group, we'll often try out crazy army lists just to goof around and see what our codices can do - 9 drop pods, or 6 dreadnoughts, etc. and we rarely have enough models for WYSIWYGing the goofy lists.

For competitive games, it should be clear what every unit is (no "This autocannon is a lascannon, and this autocannon is an autocannon", but "every autocannon in the army is a lascannon" is okay), and powerfists should be modelled clearly. We've had a few problems with people who use a squad of assault marines and say that the guy with his sword raised in the air is a powerfist. Then later in the game the powerfist suddenly moves to a new, more convenient, location next to my T4 HQ.

[Just_Me]

I agree with the internal consistency comment above; as long as the same model means the same upgrade in all cases within a given game, then I think it's fine however you want to model it (this is just plain being polite and avoiding confusion for your opponent). I'm not a huge fan of saying something is different from what it clearly is (i.e. "this plasma gun is a bolter for this game" or, god forbid, visa-versa), but I am usually willing to let it slide for the sake of having a fun game, particularly if someone just wants try out a new build they have been thinking about.

The "down but not up" idea is also something I support, though I would also say "laterally but not up." If you want that plasmagun to be a bolter or a melta, fine (though I would prefer to then see all plasma guns be bolters or meltas for this game), but if you want to say that bolter is a plasmagun, I am not going to be happy; in the first place it's a pain in the neck for me to keep track of or remember which generic dude is actually firing star-stuff at me, and that seems a bit unfair. I have almost never actually had someone try to do this, so it's rarely an issue, and while I would most likely let it go (just because games are hard enough for me to get), I would not be very happy about it.

Personally, I take WYSIWYG to the hilt, if it is on the model, then I paid points for it, and if I paid the points for it then it's on the model, if there were special rules for my IG commander to smoke a cigar, then I would damn well model a cigar onto him before I paid the points. My list is (for better or worse) fairly inflexible, I build units with the upgrades I want them to have, list them with a fixed point total, and then try to fit what I can into the limit. I may (very reluctantly) reduce a squad size, but I will not change the options actually modeled on. I literally don't even add anything to my army list until it is modeled and painted (so the incomplete battle psyker squad I had did not get typed into my list until after I had acquired, modeled, and painted another 3 psykers to bring it up to strength). I recognize that this is more restrictive than most people, and I don't blame them for the way they do it, nor do I hold them to the same requirements that I hold myself, it's my way of being part of this hobby, not theirs.

[bob9801]

I am pretty lenient on WYSIWYG as long is it is a reasonable standin for gameplay purposes. subbing a tissue box for a tank doesn't work because there is no barrel to measure to so I would say a rhino for a razorback without a set turret would be iffy. Clarity is the biggest thing. shifting weapons from one squad to another, even if it is an honest mistake, does not make for a fun game.
I am magnetizing everything on my vehicles because you have to measure to eaeh barrel. I even have demo charges to stick to the bases of guys when a model can carry one. The hardest thing for me is melta bombs though, they only come in SM sets and I play guard.

[Subject Keyword]

I play Necrons. It's a non issue.
I figure WYSIWYG is the punishment Imperial players have to endure for getting so much support from GW (except for the Inquisition armies, sadly).
Personally, I find it pretty hard to distinguish between some different Xenos weapons.

One of these two models is carrying the best anti-tank gun in the game.
The other is carrying a sucktastic, useless, S3 failgun.

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs45/300W/f/2009/096/1/c/40kMC__Dark_Eldar_Warrior_by_thatguyjames.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Z2B85MNJL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

It's pretty difficult to tell which is which from the picture, the only clue being how they are held.
Now here's the equivalent in IG:
It's pretty easy to tell which is the doom cannon and which is the nerf gun.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Imperial_Guard_Cadian_Lascannon.gif
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2008/5/DPC1_Imperial_Guardsmen_by_Hans-03015834-180px.jpg
Just something I've noticed.

[Commissar Lewis]

Personally, I have a lax and free-wheeling opinion on this. If the opponent paid the points and his/her (though I have not played against a chick...yet) list backs it up, I'm fine w/ chainsword dude having a powerfist.

Now, if someone didn't have their list for me to see and suddenly the guy next to my tank has a melta/powerfist I'm gonna get suspicious of their integrity.

Basically my rule is, as long the opponent makes it clear to me what is what before the battle, and their list backs it up, I'm good. No list and magically-appearing meltas/powerfists - feth no.

[Steelbull]

I'm not a big stickler for WYSIWYG for my opponents in friendly games. I do try to make sure my models are fairly accurate, or at least have more than is necessary. In a tournament, I might be a little less easy going about some things, like proxying Grots for Terminators or the like.




One of these two models is carrying the best anti-tank gun in the game.
The other is carrying a sucktastic, useless, S3 failgun.

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs45/300W/f/2009/096/1/c/40kMC__Dark_Eldar_Warrior_by_thatguyjames.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Z2B85MNJL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

It's pretty difficult to tell which is which from the picture, the only clue being how they are held.


@Subject Keyword

To further your point about the confusion of xenos weapons, one is indeed a Dark Lance, the other actually can be run as a Splinter Cannon which is an assault 4 S4 Weapon. The failguns are even smaller... and, again, held differently with the hand under the barrel.

The sad thing is I truely don't know the difference between most of the imperial guns... I'm a Xenos only player at this point. :eek:

[gorepants]

Sticky labels for the win. Used to use them all the time in our group since we were all young and didn't have full armies (this is back in rogue trader/ 2nd ed days when there was a lot less plastic). Makes it pretty obvious you're subbing something. Found mail labels chopped in half to be the best. Not very pretty but very functional and lets you be a little less consistent without being more confusing.

Besides that, agree with the down not up, and would add mandatory minor war gear (especially universal stuff, eg, grenades, bolt pistols on marines) shouldn't be necessary since it can get a little tedious painting it all up and they all have it anyway.

[Nabterayl]

Personally, I have a lax and free-wheeling opinion on this. If the opponent paid the points and his/her (though I have not played against a chick...yet) list backs it up, I'm fine w/ chainsword dude having a powerfist.

Now, if someone didn't have their list for me to see and suddenly the guy next to my tank has a melta/powerfist I'm gonna get suspicious of their integrity.

Basically my rule is, as long the opponent makes it clear to me what is what before the battle, and their list backs it up, I'm good. No list and magically-appearing meltas/powerfists - feth no.
This is my attitude as well. Because I enjoy modeling, I try to magnetize every possible option on every possible model, but when it comes time to game, just run me through your list and I don't care what is or isn't modeled.

[Shadoq]

I feel that I am pretty lax and understanding with WYSIWYG rules simply because not all of us have bucket loads of money to throw at an expensive hobby and buy every unit of interest.

I go with the mentality of you know what the unit is and pay the points cost, I am ok with it as long as the miniature is similar in size, e.g. a terminator is not a Leman Russ.

Although I will admit I was not too thrilled when I played a game where my opponent was proxying his entire Imperial Guard army as a Land Raider equipped Black Templar force and was taking advantage of the smaller size of a Chimera versus a Land Raider.

[Mystery.Shadow]

WYSIWYG ?

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apocalypse/01010639.JPG.html

Do doubts here!

[Commissar Lewis]

^ Well that gives new meaning to "stickin' it to the enemy".

[rbryce]

depends on the model. my canoness is modelled with a book in one hand, inferno pistol in the other, so when i want a ccw or whatever i have the bits painted up already, and stick it on the base for the game, for tanks, i have everything interchangeable. im not a stickler for wysiwyg, but others can be, and its best to be prepped in case. in most situations, its nothing a 5 minute sit-down with a cup of tea before the game starts to have a chat about whats what, share lists, discuss rules etc. manners are worth your weight in gold.

[Morgrim]

I have a converted dark elf dreadlord as a dracon. Standard wargear is a CCW and a splinter pistol. I've swapped the CCW for an agoniser and used the the big clawed glove, so that is pretty obvious. However his other hand is caressing the tail of the dragonette sitting on his shoulder. None of my friends have had an issue considering a small dragon in a hunting hood as a splinter pistol. Probably because the idea of it flapping about his head breathing fire sounds like a fairly obvious weapon to them and small size is why it isn't a very good or long range one.

(Granted, I just couldn't find room to squish a holster on him and hate the DE huge 'this is the length of my whole leg' holsters. I may get around to scratch building some if I can come up with how.)

[Evil-Termite]

In a pick up game for fun, if you need to proxy a unit or two, I'm fine with it as long as it is close to the same size and you aren't proxying up. (ie 2 rhinos for 2 vindicators). The examples you gave were all fairly fine. Now, if you and I played 20 games over the course of the year and you used the same wrong sponsons on your tank EVERY game, I would expect you to get the right bits and model them on.

In a tournament, there is usually a box on the sportsmanship sheet that asks for WYSIWYG. For that, I want to see all the right models with the right guns. If your Tau Pathfinders have grenades on their belts because they were cast that way and I won't mark you down. A warp spider exarch modeled with power blades, but not using power blades is kind of iffy because changing out metal is difficult. If was the only model in your army that wasn't I would probably let it slide. But if you are running 5 terminators with thunderhammers and they are modeled with lightning claws then I will. Your camo net thing certainly wouldn't be a problem for me in a tournament.

[lobster-overlord]

my canoness is modelled with a book in one hand, inferno pistol in the other, so when i want a ccw or whatever i have the bits painted up already,.

Honestly, those books ARE CCWs. I wouldn't want to be hit with them.

A bunch of us got really good at converting metal because of Necromunda. Changing out a ton of small hand guns got to be really easy, but then they were made to be interchanged speedily.

[RexScarlet]

I am a big fan of wysiwyg (and it is in the rules).

But;

Only for upgrades on/for individual models (this includes vehicles) (flamer, missle-launcher, etc.) (dozer-blade, extra armor, etc.).

NOT for upgrades for an entire squad (crack grenades, bolters instead of bolt-pistol/chainsword, etc.) (jump-packs would change this).

Additionally, NO "counts as" (unless it is in Apocalypse).
(this las-cannon (heavy weapon) is really a heavy-bolter) (this boring looking SM is my chapter master)

I feel it is NOT the burden of you opponent to remember what is what in your army.

I also believe a NON-wysiwyg "fielded" army, is an army with a distinct Advantage.