Specialist Games maybe not entirely dead

[eldargal]

Hey Natfka,
Just some speculation about publicly filed records.

I was doing some research on the United States Trademark website, and found that in September 2013, GW filed for the "BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC" "MORDHEIM" "NECROMUNDA" "DREADLEET" trademarks. These are being actively pursued, with some documents being filed as recently as last week, in September 2014, with correspondence going back and forth.

Also, these are pre-applications, where they anticipate releasing products in the future and want to be protected until market, not for products that they already have in the market.

In addition, the categories of goods they cover include miniature games, RPGs, computer games, and anything in between those categories and board/card games.

Dreadfleet is actually gotten through to be posted for opposition, which means the public can comment and challenge it, but the USPTO doesn't have a problem with it.

To serve as a counter-example, some of the Blood Bowl trademarks date back from the 1990's and the 2000's, and are considered to still be in use in various ways. And 1 Space Hulk trademark from 1997 for board and computer games is still active and being used, but newer Space Hulk ones for various other types of games are being filed in September 2013 with the others mentioned above.

The really funny thing to me is that they killed off the Specialist games around May 2013... but then in September of the same year paid an attorney lots of money to file for all the other trademarks again. So, in my unprofessional market analysis, this is not a "We used these in the past, lets get the IP rights" type of thing, but a "We got stuff coming down the pipe later, and now we are doing the IP rights correctly this time before hand!"
From Faeit (natfka.blogspot.com/2014/09/battlefleet-gothic-mordheim-necromunda.html). Should be something that can be verified and if it is accurate might indicate that we could see some of the SGs return a la Space Hulk.

[Wolfshade]

Hmm could be. Or they could just be making sure they are bolt and bracers to stop things becomeing "abandoned" and freeware as it were.

Still, though, Mordheim is great fun and would love to play blood bowl again, looks like back the that cyanide pc game

[Mr Mystery]

Interesting.

I reckon we'll see them again. The moulds (presumably) still exist after all. And I did speculate on the Space Hulk thread that short run, limited release might be the way to go. Cast up a finite number of models, and once they're gone, they're gone until the next time. Creates and manages demand quite nicely, reducing risk to capital investment.

- - - Updated - - -

Though, Wolfie possibly inadvertantly raises a point.

Mordheim has a pootery game underway. Space Hulk already has.... Blood Bowl too.

Could simply be camping on their IP.

[BeardMonk]

No Inquisitor tho :-(

Of all the systems I wonder if we will see an updated re-vamp of BFG. With the interest and rise of Xwing, GW may want to get back in on the space ship battle action.

[Morgrim]

Inquisitor suffered from the really weird scale they chose. A limited range of models + a size that makes finding alternative models tricky isn't a great combo.

[Mr Mystery]

No Inquisitor tho :-(

Of all the systems I wonder if we will see an updated re-vamp of BFG. With the interest and rise of Xwing, GW may want to get back in on the space ship battle action.

Or steer clear of it. Well served market is well served. X-Wing is an ace game, and for me works better than BFG rules wise. Plus, start up costs are nowt!

Really, really want BFG back all the same though!

[BeardMonk]

Inquisitor suffered from the really weird scale they chose. A limited range of models + a size that makes finding alternative models tricky isn't a great combo.

I still play 54mm Inq with a few mates. IMO I think the scale is right for the detail of the game. There were actually quite a lot of models released for it and finding other 54mm model ranges to draw from is not all that hard if you shop around. The whole idea was to convert to represent your characters. Its a modellers and converters dream.

[40kGamer]

I only met one specialist game I didn't like and that was Inquisitor. Still picked up several models for display but was never a big fan of the game scale. I would welcome any of the others back... a new incarnation of Adeptus Titanicus with updated turtle titans would likey cause me to pass out from excitement. :P

[Herzlos]

I can't see them re-releasing Dreadfleet as anything other than an iPad game. I imagine this is just a base covering exersize, potentially related to some CHS settlement if that's what's happened.

[40kGamer]

it's sad that Dreadfleet fell flat... ManOWar was quite the fun little game system.

[YorkNecromancer]

I see this more as a sign that they're protecting their IPs, to prevent other companies making 40K/Fantasy models 'on the sly' so to speak. It also makes it easier if they want to convert these older games to digital/ipad/console games, which seems to be a thing they do now.

I doubt very much we'll see any return of the Specialist Games, because, ultimately, where's the money? Given the choice between a new Necromunda gang sprue of 10 guys which a handful of hardcore gamers will play, or a new Space Marine squad which will sell far more copies, I know which I would put into production. Specialist Games are a lovely idea, and I imagine they make good money for the small companies which make similar products (Malifaux, et al.) but GW just won't do it, because every SG kit is a lost 40K or Fantasy kit.

Especially when, yes, Space Hulk sold, but Dreadfleet?

Yeah, all twenty people who play it LOVE it, but come on. You can't make money that way.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I agree with YorkNecromancer. Since they seem to be throwing around the video game licenses a lot lately, it's far more likely they'll have some 3rd party video-game based on them if anything at all. As much as I'd love to see a new edition of Epic or BFG it's pretty unlikely, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.

[Mr Mystery]

Dreadfleet suffered from two things Space Hulk doesn't....

1) No cross compatibility for the models
2) No pedigree as an old favourite.

Yet it remains one of my favourite games.

The other specialist games, released at one year, with a 'gone is gone' supply chain - that can make money.

Consider it - Mordheim etc all have rules and existing model ranges. Only cost involved is the tail end production - printing, casting, boxing and shipping. That's pretty cheap as costs go, certainly to my understanding bypassing the main costs.

Pick the right games (BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl spring to mind), and they will self generate enough hype and demand to swallow up whatever has been produced. Price point is then largely moot. BFG as an example - I bought an Imperial Grand Cruiser during the wind down. Cost me around £20 tops. Never got round to building it, so sold it on ebay earlier this year - for £70. That suggests a good level of demand, and although a rarer model in the range, more prevalent ones still sell for relatively silly money.

GW then release those ships, even at 20% over their last price? They will sell, and sell handsomely.

That's where your cash monies are! :)

[miteyheroes]

Space Hulk worked brilliantly because people use the models for 40k. GorkaMorka, Mordheim, and maybe Necromunda could hit the same niche. Throw in some cool models and some fancy terrain? It'd sell like hotcakes.

[40kGamer]

I think the key to blowing out one shot Specialist games is tying them into the old systems or making the models multipurpose. Space Hulk is such an easy 40k crossover product that it's a no brainer. IMO Dreadfleet being an entirely different scale from ManOWar with no tie in to any current system hurt it's sales. It's still a nice little game but it is a true stand alone.

A new issue of Adeptus Titanicus with Imperial/chaos titans that match the old Epic Scale would have a decent shot of selling well. Sadly I really don't see them tapping into any of the old IP as they have evolved from a hobby based company to a corporate culture.

[Tyrendian]

While I would certainly hope they reboot some of the old favs, I'll believe it when I see it... and considering the really poopy quality of most games with their IPs released lately (I mean what was the last decent one? Space Marine? DoW2? BloodBowl? don't remember the dates, but beyond those I didn't see anything worthwhile...), I won't get my hopes up too much on that front either until Total WarHammer gets confirmed... or maybe someone will give BFG a shot, turn based or real-time? that might actually be rather neat...

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the key to blowing out one shot Specialist games is tying them into the old systems or making the models multipurpose.

I reckon though, that you've got to bear GW's 'We make luxury goods for collectors' business policy in mind. A multipurpose system done incorrectly would undercut 40K. Say, for example, there was a 40K version of 'Deadzone'. Now, a sensible business would say 'This is the gateway system to 40K. You only need a handful of models to play, so it's cheap and cheerful for beginners.'

GW says NO.

Because they don't sell cheap and cheerful; we know from prior experience that this is true. They actively destroy unsold stock, rather than selling it off cheap, thus keeping the 'luxury good' idea fixed in their consumers' minds.

I'm not saying it works. I'm saying that's what they do and why they do it.

So they'd never want an game that players could get cheap. And the problem with a 'Deadzone', where multiple playes could fight out a 'mini-40K' with say seven figures each, is that most of those players only buy the seven initial figures. Yes, some go on to develop 40K armies, but that's not the point. They don't see what they have to gain, only what they have to lose, and what they have to lose is 40K gamers - gamers who only bought a handful to play this mini-40K game, rather than the small army they currently have to buy to get in 40K proper.

Now, the way I can see GW doing it, is by releasing something prestigious, something Limited Edition, where they can charge upwards of £100 for a box with about fifty 'prestige' models, very much like Space Hulk, or Dark Vengeance. The problem is, apart from Space Hulk every SG has a full line of different factions. They got round that with Dreadfleet by making each faction a single ship. How can they repeat that with Necromunda? With Blood Bowl?

More importantly, how can they do that while releasing every miniature for every name faction ALL AT ONCE. Because that's their current policy in 40K codexes, remember: no rules without models.

Now, there would be ways around this; creative, clever ones. Say they re-released Blood Bowl every year. Each year would have the same core rules, but different models and 'team cards' for the two teams included. 2014 would be humans/orcs. 2015 would be high elves/skaven. 2016 would be chaos/undeed. And so on. Each time, a Limited Edition with different models, and no rules for anything besides what you got in the box.

Would it sell? OF COURSE IT ****ING WOULD. I WOULD BUY EVERY ****ING ONE ON THE DAY OF RELEASE!!!

Will they do it?

No.

Because GW is inherently backward-looking, inherently scared, and they would rather gouge an existing fanbase than take the risk of building a new one and failing. Of course, this is the third year where my school's Games Club has seen a decrease in members, as well as an increase in people who want to play but whose parents refuse to pay GW's stupid prices (because £30 for a new codex? That's ****ing insulting.) I've openly had parents tell me the hobby looks great, but they won't pay. Our library doesn't have the budget for GW rulebooks any more; five years ago, we had the complete set.

TL;DR: It'd be lovely if SG came back, and it could be done. But it would require innovative business practises, which are GW's Kyrptonite.

[Herzlos]

So they'd never want an game that players could get cheap. And the problem with a 'Deadzone', where multiple playes could fight out a 'mini-40K' with say seven figures each, is that most of those players only buy the seven initial figures. Yes, some go on to develop 40K armies, but that's not the point. They don't see what they have to gain, only what they have to lose, and what they have to lose is 40K gamers - gamers who only bought a handful to play this mini-40K game, rather than the small army they currently have to buy to get in 40K proper.


I don't buy that theory at all; I don't know anyone playing a current skirmish game that only has one force. I play 2 low model count (~5-10 minis a side) games (Malifaux & EOTD), and between them I've got more mini's than in my IG army. 2 Malifaux factions (4 masters), 3 EOTD factions and a whole host of extras. I certainly won't be dropping £500 on a new 40K army, but I don't blink at dropping £50 on a few faction in other games, and I'm by no means alone.

The cannibalized sale is a completely backwards way to be looking at it, especially when everyone else is cannibalizing their sales in the absence of GW specialst games, and once you consider the gateway approach and so on. I can see why GW follows their current approach, but it's mind bogglingly short-termist.

[YorkNecromancer]

I don't buy that theory at all; I don't know anyone playing a current skirmish game that only has one force.

Which is exaclty why it would work. But GW won't do it for the reasons I've outlined. When GW analyses a business plan, they never look at risk vs potential gain, only risk vs potential loss, hence their massively conservative business strategies and the mind-boggling short-termism you describe.

The absurd fall in their profits over the last year speaks volumes about how doomed to failure their strategies are. They could easily save themselves, but they're so scared of failure, so scared of doing something new, so abjectly terrified of any change whatsoever, that they've doomed themselves.

I don't know if they'll go out of business or not - 40K seems big enough to keep going for a few years - but a slow withering and gradual death seems all but inevitable at this stage.

[40kGamer]

I reckon though, that you've got to bear GW's 'We make luxury goods for collectors' business policy in mind. A multipurpose system done incorrectly would undercut 40K.

Because they don't sell cheap and cheerful; we know from prior experience that this is true. They actively destroy unsold stock, rather than selling it off cheap, thus keeping the 'luxury good' idea fixed in their consumers' minds.
GW used to blow things out for discounts when they discontinued or updated systems. About half of my Epic 40k stock came from an end of game liquidation. Another reminder of how much the company has changed over the last couple decades.

Would it sell? OF COURSE IT ****ING WOULD. I WOULD BUY EVERY ****ING ONE ON THE DAY OF RELEASE!!!
I’d be right there in line too!

Because GW is inherently backward-looking, inherently scared, and they would rather gouge an existing fanbase than take the risk of building a new one and failing…
TL;DR: It'd be lovely if SG came back, and it could be done. But it would require innovative business practises, which are GW's Kyrptonite.
One would think a company like GW would be very creative since they are in the business of creating things… It reminds me of when I worked at a University and was surprised to find out that they provided less of a focus on education then my old Corporate jobs. Go figure!

I firmly believe the Specialist Games are a potential gold mine. But I also agree that GW doesn’t appear to have any miners on staff at the moment. Maybe in the near future we’ll see some improvement. At the moment the company is following a path of shrinking market share while putting forth a public image of blissful ignorance.

[AirHorse]

I don't buy that either.

If GW don't release SG it won't have anything to do with worrying about losing 40k gamers. Going by that logic we wouldn't have space hulk again, again.

I'm still not holding my breath for any of the SG to be re-released mind you! I think as people have pointed out it could well be in connection to other products such as video games!

Would love for gorkamorka and necromunda to be re-released though :<

[Erik Setzer]

GW used to blow things out for discounts when they discontinued or updated systems. About half of my Epic 40k stock came from an end of game liquidation. Another reminder of how much the company has changed over the last couple decades.

Oh man... I remember when they had some overstocked stuff and just put it up for insanely cheap prices on their website. My dad ordered ten - ten! - Screaming Skull Catapults once, they were like $2 each. And he got five Steeds of Slaanesh (I still have four, one of them he used to modify a Vampire Lord to be a Chaos Lord of Slaanesh, really wish I'd saved that model...) for some stupidly low price.

Now, everything seems to go in the dumpster or something if it doesn't sell. Especially publications.

[YorkNecromancer]

GW used to blow things out for discounts when they discontinued or updated systems. About half of my Epic 40k stock came from an end of game liquidation. Another reminder of how much the company has changed over the last couple decades.

Oh, I remember those. Back in '93, I was there for the great Rogue Trader Liquidation. Ogryns for 50p. Rapier Laser Destroyers for £1. Techpriest with two Servitors for £1. Thirty odd huge cardboard boxes filled with blister packs sold off at poundland prices. Then in '98, Space Hulk for £20, brand new. Five metal Scout Marines for £2.

But that was the nineties. This is now, and GW hasn't had one of those sales in over fifteen years. We know they melted down the unsold metal Dark Eldar models in 2010, as well as all the remaining metals when Finecast came out.

They don't do sales any more. Discount bundles maybe (oh, the great Apocalypse sale of 2007, how we miss you!) but not sales. Not any more.


I firmly believe the Specialist Games are a potential gold mine.

I totally agree. A re-release of Adeptus Titanicus? I'd be over that like herpes, they'd never get me off it.


Going by that logic we wouldn't have space hulk again, again.

Ah, but Space Hulk was perfect; it's self-contained, has only two factions, and is the perfect opportunity to do the whole Limited Edition thing. The game could be expanded, but is complete as is. Unlike Necromunda, say, where they'd need to release eight to twelve separate factions. Which could be done, and would be the proverbial License To Print Money, but as I've said - it would require GW to be bold, not timid. And they're not.

[40kGamer]

Oh, I remember those. Back in '93, I was there for the great Rogue Trader Liquidation... But that was the nineties. This is now, and GW hasn't had one of those sales in over fifteen years.

They don't do sales any more. Discount bundles maybe (oh, the great Apocalypse sale of 2007, how we miss you!) but not sales. Not any more.

So true! It has been a long long time! I remember the annual 10% off mail order discounts at Christmas which I used to fill out a lot of Specialist Games models. The Apocalypse sale was mindblowing!


I totally agree. A re-release of Adeptus Titanicus? I'd be over that like herpes, they'd never get me off it.

This is my dream game! I was working my way through college at a comic store when this hit the states so it was my intro to the hobby. We never forget our first love. :)


Ah, but Space Hulk was perfect; it's self-contained, has only two factions, and is the perfect opportunity to do the whole Limited Edition thing. The game could be expanded, but is complete as is.

Not to mention that Space Hulk is fun, has a low learning curve and is fast / friendly to play. It really is the perfect stand alone game.

[Denzark]

I see this more as a sign that they're protecting their IPs, to prevent other companies making 40K/Fantasy models 'on the sly' so to speak. It also makes it easier if they want to convert these older games to digital/ipad/console games, which seems to be a thing they do now.

I think this is it. Or, more simply put, for the next half a decade, when GW does something funky and unanticipated with its IP, it is to prevent a Chapter House Leeches scenario - Nid players where is that Doom of Malantai now?

[QUOTE=Mr Mystery;452107]

Pick the right games (BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl spring to mind), and they will self generate enough hype and demand to swallow up whatever has been produced. Price point is then largely moot. BFG as an example - I bought an Imperial Grand Cruiser during the wind down. Cost me around £20 tops. Never got round to building it, so sold it on ebay earlier this year - for £70. That suggests a good level of demand, and although a rarer model in the range, more prevalent ones still sell for relatively silly money.[QUOTE]

One thing I don't get with this MM - which is why they don't see the amount of money old RT Squat minis go for - not the best of sculpts is an understatement but they shift for an equivalent to Liberia's deficit for 4.

[DWest]

I think this is it. Or, more simply put, for the next half a decade, when GW does something funky and unanticipated with its IP, it is to prevent a Chapter House Leeches scenario - Nid players where is that Doom of Malantai now?
It's in the same warp rift containing the other popular lynchpin that was removed because of Chapterhouse, the Farseer on Jetbike. Oh, wait . . .

[Mr Mystery]

That'd be the Farseer on jetbike in the Codex released before they started tightening up then :p

And Denzark, it's ok, you can call Chapterhouse parasites.

As for the Squats? It's likely those moulds have long since perished, so would cost a bit to replace. Mordheim etc were in use until relatively recently (18 months tops I think?)

[Ben_S]

Given the choice between a new Necromunda gang sprue of 10 guys which a handful of hardcore gamers will play, or a new Space Marine squad which will sell far more copies, I know which I would put into production. Specialist Games are a lovely idea, and I imagine they make good money for the small companies which make similar products (Malifaux, et al.) but GW just won't do it, because every SG kit is a lost 40K or Fantasy kit.

They still haven't released a 'proper' 40k Chaos Cultist kit. Just the other day I was thinking how cool it would be if they chose to release 4-6 different Cultist kits that could double as Necromunda gangs. Won't happen, but would have been great.

[DWest]

That'd be the Farseer on jetbike in the Codex released before they started tightening up then :p
It still calls into question the veracity of anyone who says "everything that's missing is because CHS wah wah wah". The fact is, the Tyranids codex was butchered and the constant attempts to shift blame for that in order to further a personal vendetta is tiresome. Bear in mind, I only chose the Jetbike Seer because it's a single complete model that's easy to pick on. When you get into the components and options, there are a *lot* of things that don't have representation, and those hurt GW more over the long run; taking my own army for example, I'm a fan of Power Lances for a lot of applications. There's only one official power lance in the whole GW range, and you have to buy a marine on a bike to get it. I don't need marines on bikes, so I go to the bitz markets or 3rd party suppliers to get it. And since I'm already shopping for bits and paying for shipping, rather than buying, say the fancy new Vanguard kit to make my lance-wielding vets, I grab a bunch of old scrub Assault and Tactical Marines I had laying around and polish them up to look the part. But I also magnetized those lances, because given GW's track record, I don't trust that I'll still have the option to take anything other than power swords and maybe axes after the next Space Marine dex drops.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I would love GW to do a BFG one off release to go along with an Armageddon campaign, similar to that Stormclaw thing. It is Imperials vs Orks however, and I think Chaos vs. AM would probably be preferred, as GW could then use the plastic cruiser sprues they had with the original BFG starter box. A ground based campaign along with a BFG supplement that could then be applied to other campaigns. Like Ultramar getting invaded by Tyranids, Or Eldar invading a Necron Tomb world. The box would contain something like 6 to 10 ships for each faction. Some sort of heavy cruiser/battleship for command, and then frigates/destroyers to fill out the box. Keep the main rulebook short and sweet, so that you can mass produce it easily for each campaign expansion and then a sheet of stats for each faction's ships. It doesn't have to be a whole miniature range, which is probably what killed BFG's profitability, but just a limited release that goes along with a short campaign (like Stormclaw) with the two factions that are fighting in the land based campaign.

[The Emperor]

You know what I'd like to see again? Warhammer Quest. That's a pretty self contained release as well. They'd just have to do the character packs, but they could probably be made as Finecast and maybe stuffed into the Warhammer Quest box along with their relevant rules and counters. After all, they were able to stuff an extra bit of material into the Space Hulk box, despite already having a ton of stuff in there to begin with. I'm not a fan of Finecast, but I'd definitely like a second chance to collect the Witch Hunter, Chaos Warrior, and Pit Fighter in some form (That and I'd like to replace the long lost rules for the Imperial Noble, Warrior Priest, and Bretonnian Questing Knight which I still have. It drives me batty to think that I still have those models but somehow lost their rule books, counters, and cards).

[The Emperor]

Necromunda is another one which I'd really like to see (Mostly because I'd kill to get those terrain pieces again), although it's obviously not as easy a rerelease as Space Hulk was or Warhammer Quest would be, as there's just so much more to the line. It does raise some interesting possibilities for cross-pollination between it and 40k, however.

Take the basic Hive Gangers (Delaque, Cawdor, Escher, Van Saar, Goliath, and Orlocks). Why not make them an option for Imperial Guard armies? Conscripts, for instance, are pretty dull as-is. The Hive Gangers, though, could form the basis of a new and revamped Conscript unit with far more weapon options. Now how neat would that be? A unit pulled up from the cesspools of hive cities armed with whatever weaponry they already own and thrown into battle. It'd certainly be better than just having hordes and hordes of incompetent Cadians with lasguns.

The Enforcers are purposefully modelled after the Adeptus Arbites, so why not make a dual-kit with a few options so they could be made as both Enforcers and Arbitrators, and bring the Arbitrators back onto the 40k battlefield? They could probably be statted up in a Dataslate or Digital Codex akin to the Inquisition or the Officio Assassinorum.

The Spyrers are supposedly using Tau technology, so why not have an option for them to be able to form Gue'vesa units and be part of Tau armies? Either as powerful individual heroes (Maybe something like the Tau Equivalent of the Officio Assassinorum Assassination Squad), or maybe even have each version of Spyrer form his own kind of squad (I.E. 3-10 Yeld, 5-10 Orrus, etc. So they'd be more akin to Human Aspect Warriors fighting in Tau armies).

There's a lot which GW could do to make Necromunda models appealing to 40k users and make them playable in 40k games while still supporting it as a standalone game.

[Webwolf]

I would love to se a reboot of Warhammer Quest or Epic 40K.

[Chris*ta]

I remember scuttlebutt that GW withdrew Epic on the principle that it was cannibalising 40k sales ...

Warhammer Quest would be an awesome opportunity to bring back a la Space Hulk. Though it may mean putting lists for non-box foes in WD, and the Emperor only knows what GW's latest policy is on that ...

As for bringing back Necromunda, maybe releasing it a little like Dreadfleet, with an all-star group of individuals from various factions, versus something ... a little like the Dirty Dozen, I think ...

[eldargal]

That was never true, they said at its peak Epic only ever made up 2% of GW sales.

Warhammer Quest would be ideal as a WFB counterpart to Space Hulk.

[40kGamer]

That was never true, they said at its peak Epic only ever made up 2% of GW sales.

Warhammer Quest would be ideal as a WFB counterpart to Space Hulk.

Sounds about right. I always thought those of us with an unnatural love for Epic were a 'small' portion of the market. :D

Warhammer Quest does naturally lend itself to an easy one shot game.

[Erik Setzer]

That was never true, they said at its peak Epic only ever made up 2% of GW sales.

Hmm... That sounds kind of odd, I remember there used to be a LOT of people playing it, and it got a lot of support in White Dwarf, right up until they opted to over-simplify it, which killed all the interest. It wasn't really that much cheaper, either, at least for most of us. They might have been going with the numbers from "Epic 40K," which still seems a bit low even with as meh as that edition of the game was.

[eldargal]

It was mentioned at a Games Day a few years ago, may have come from Jervis Johnson I don't remember.

[40kGamer]

I think Epic started out strong... Adeptus Titanicus - Space Marine - Space Marine 2nd Edition... then came the design change to Firepower points and blast markers which proved too much of an abstraction.

I do think Adeptus Titanicus could be a one off hit 'if' they kept the classic Epic scale. They could keep the model count around 15 and still cover all of the major 40k 'titan' races. ~3 each for Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Orks and Tyranids. Add a few heavy card buildings with the nice plastic roofs like Epic 2nd Ed for an Imperial city and off you go. I'd buy 3+ copies myself! :p

[Mr Mystery]

Hmm... That sounds kind of odd, I remember there used to be a LOT of people playing it, and it got a lot of support in White Dwarf, right up until they opted to over-simplify it, which killed all the interest. It wasn't really that much cheaper, either, at least for most of us. They might have been going with the numbers from "Epic 40K," which still seems a bit low even with as meh as that edition of the game was.

Ah, but then armies were well cheap. Two boxes of infantry, handful of blisters and boof, you've got yourself a decent army. Sadly, lots of players don't necessarily equate to lots of spending :)

I still want to see it make a comeback all the same.

Or, I'll get that management promotion I'm after in the next 12 months, and then go mental buying up vintageepicfuntoys. Not because I'm a hobby hipster - it's not nostalgia if you were actually there :p

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I was a huge Epic fan back in the day, I bought every army - I loved the idea ofs pending £5 and getting a the equivilent of a full 40k army in tiny form. Looking at the sprues was half the fun too, seeing all the different units in them. If they ever brought it back it should be larger scale with thousands of infantry and proper titan legions (And war in heaven era of course!)

[Mr Mystery]

I think Space Marine just nailed it as a game. Though that is through Rose Tinted Glasses, as it was the first game I properly played, and didn't I just!

Bro and I between us had 4,000 points in every army except Squats, Orks and Niddlydiddlies. Granted much of that was padded out by just putting one spod on each base but meh, we were kids and every little helped!

Still got an Epic Ork army *somewhere*. My mate put it into storage, so I know it's safe. Just don't know where it is!

Should get that dug out really. It's got Gargants and everything in it!

[Charon]

Space Marine was fun, brought a wonderful atmosphere and was quite some time with brainless fun.
I did not like the flying cartwheel over the the rubber foam power unit on his back... ouch...


Still think that Final Liberation and Chaos Gate where very good games back then.
Bloodbowl was really fun too and the first Space Hulk was boss.

[40kGamer]

I think Space Marine just nailed it as a game. Though that is through Rose Tinted Glasses, as it was the first game I properly played, and didn't I just!

My gateway to the hobby was the original Adeptus Titanicus and I still have an unnatural love for that game... every few years I pick up another mint copy from ebay to add to my stash. I think I'm up to 5 complete copies now. It's a guilty pleasure... :o

[Mr Mystery]

Space Marine was fun, brought a wonderful atmosphere and was quite some time with brainless fun.
I did not like the flying cartwheel over the the rubber foam power unit on his back... ouch...


The flying cartwheel with the what now? Brain seems to think it knows the model, but won't tell me....

[Charon]

When he does his barrel roll he rolls over his power armor energy pack... still it is a smooth and silent movement... and it bends his stabilizers like it was made from rubber.

[40kGamer]

When he does his barrel roll he rolls over his power armor energy pack... still it is a smooth and silent movement... and it bends his stabilizers like it was made from rubber.

You're referring to the video game?

[Mr Mystery]

When he does his barrel roll he rolls over his power armor energy pack... still it is a smooth and silent movement... and it bends his stabilizers like it was made from rubber.

Ahhhhh! Gotcha!

Yeah, we were discussing the Epic table top game rather than the (really rather fun too) video game.

Really should dust that off. Perhaps after I've finished God of War 2 tonight. I love button bashers me!

[40kGamer]

Mystery, Are you thinking of this version...

11386

or this one?

11387

This one below has been, and always will be, my first true hobby love... :p

11388

[Mr Mystery]

2nd Edition. Though I did dabble in Adeptus Titanicus. Glorious game that!

[40kGamer]

2nd Edition. Though I did dabble in Adeptus Titanicus. Glorious game that!

2nd Edition was a superior overall game to the first one and IMO, also marked the high water point for Epic as a game. My only quibble with second was that titans tended to be a bit too fragile... although it may have been because basic infantry and tanks could hardly scratch them in the first edition. :D

I never managed to get excited about this version

11389

although to be fair, the concept of firepower and detachment level results fits well with mass 6mm scale gaming. For some reason though, the level of abstraction made the game too bland. If they had abstracted the infantry/tanks while keeping the flavor of the superheavies and titans it might have been more acceptable to the existing gaming base.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Nice to see so many people like Epic, I agree Epic 40k was poor and made me lose interest too. I was more into Space Marine/Titan Legions. Shame there arent any Original 6mm games out there, seems like the only ones out there are all Epic Proxy games - which is pretty boring, if like me you want innovative backround and races that arent the usual cut and paste tropes.

[DWest]

I got into 40k through the "Final Liberation" PC game, so I'd definitely like to see a new version of Titanicus. Because let's be honest, even if FW ever do figure out how to make a 40-scale Warlord, you're never going to have the truly epic slugging match of god-machines, for one it won't be safe for your table or your back to reposition the beast. It'd be really cool to see them do something like out of the Mechanicum novel- 4-5 Titans of various flavors on each side, maybe some heavy card counters for infantry (because let's be honest, the only way infantry is going to slow down one of the big boys is by gumming up the ankle joints with their corpses).

[YorkNecromancer]

http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/img/lev.jpg
https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/585198/files/20140517040400-winter_infantry_copy.jpg?1400324640
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/images/previews/gore%20maidens.jpg
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/images/previews/stygian_parasite_rig.jpg
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/images/previews/carvers_final.jpg
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/images/previews/kaiju%20mega%20rig.jpg
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/70-thickbox_default/legion-army-deal-the-living-tide.jpg
Those of you who still love The Epic might like these two sellers. I've picked up some stuff from Troublemaker and GREAT GOOGLY MOOGLY it is nice. I've not tried Onslaught yet (on account of they're US), but it's basically a matter of time.
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/

[40kGamer]

Oh snap Yorkie, you're making my wallet cry! :)

[Mr Mystery]

Epic 40k switched me off, but I did enjoy Epic Armageddon. Giving AT and AP firepower really worked. Some stuff would absolutely mash infantry, but not even tickle Tanks, and vice versa.

But yeah, Space Marine has a special place in my gaming heart. I particularly liked how you selected your army - Company Card, 0-1 Special, and then detachments. Glorious!