So what would 30k Xenos armies be?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

So current and understandably widespread grumble is the boys in Power Armour getting all the Forgeworld love, with what can only be called token releases for non-Heresy stuff now and again.

Yet, I for one have not given much thought to what a Heresy Era xenos army might look like for the existing nasties.

Orks for instance - well, they're kind of just Orks aren't they? No lost technology type stuff, least not that I'm aware of!

Eldar - Well, they'd more or less just had their little Fall. Commoragh is established to already be underway, but not under Cabal rule.

Niddlydiddlies - Although apparently recent, little reason not to have very, very advanced guard Hive Fleets knocking about.

Necrons - Some Tomb Complexes confirmed in the 40k book to have been rubbing the sleepymen out their cold, dead eyes.

What's your thoughts folks?

[40kGamer]

Orks are Orks are Orks... :)

I would think Eldar / Dark Eldar may share more technology as it is so close after the fall. Although one could argue the 'purists' took to the craftworlds with untainted technology and the Dark Eldar reflect where technology evolved up to the time of the fall.

Gribblies? I don't know that any full hivefleets would be around but they had to have advance elements arrive at some point to spread the Genestealers about.

Crons were mostly sleeping but I could see isolated tomb world waking up even in this period.

Tau would be noteably absent as they are a young race.

Most of 30k was the Imperium exterminating small xenos populations scattered all about so there would be loads of minor species to explore.

I would expect the Loaxtl and Hrud would be milling about somewhere too.

One of the beautiful mechanics they built into the 40k storyline is the vastness and inadequacy of the imperial records leaving options open to add things in at any time and still have it retrofit the fluff.

[Paul David Luke]

Although they wouldn't suit full size FOC, things like the alien species on Murder, or... that psyker race from the first DA book (its been a while since I read the HH books!) would be rather cool, although they would more obviously suit killteam style games.

[Mr Mystery]

You say that, but look what they're doing with the Mechanicum. :)

Updates of old Robot classes as Battle Automata, alongside brand new stuff like the Thalax. So stuff on Murder could be a lot wider than the book mentioned (one would assume the Astartes would only really note and be fussed about the elite stuffs)

But just concentrating on the existing 40k races for now, as they'd more likely sell better than a race you couldn't port stuff over into 40k as relics.

[40kGamer]

But just concentrating on the existing 40k races for now, as they'd more likely sell better than a race you couldn't port stuff over into 40k as relics.

I would think the Eldar/Dark Eldar would be the biggest potential xenos mine for dual 30k / 40k service. The whole Engines of Vaul thing and all... or you could go absolutely nuts and fill out a complete Harlequin army. :D

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Eldar would probably be some hybrid of Exodite, Craftworld and Dark at this point in their history. I'd imagine the Imperium would mostly be bumping into Rangers. The rest of the Eldar are probably going into panic mode. If we're talking about before the fall, Eldar would probably be a very, very nasty race to bump into. The Craftworld Eldar that we know today (as in 41st millennium) are purposefully limiting their own power so as not to tear holes into reality. The pre-Fall Eldar would probably not be so nice. They'd have all the psychic abilities of the Craftworld Eldar and then some, combined with the perversity and masochism of the Dark Eldar.

Hey, wait a second... Hordes and hordes of Space Marines with super-ancient technology getting shredded apart by a hybrid of Eldar and Dark Eldar... Orks occasionally around... Chaos Marines and Tyranids simply don't exist... Maybe we are playing Warhammer 30k!


Gribblies? I don't know that any full hivefleets would be around but they had to have advance elements arrive at some point to spread the Genestealers about.
While full-blown Tyranid attacks are unlikely, Genestealer Cults are still probably a very real threat. Given the enormous spans of sheer vacuum in the galaxy, combined with the fact that Tyranids don't really have any FTL travel of their own (I barely dignify Narvahls as canon; I refuse to accept FTL-enabling Narvahls as canon because physics called and said no), they're probably already in the galaxy, lurking in between the stars in the vacuum of space. Nobody bumps into them because, pfft, who travels through long stretches of interstellar vacuum when you have warp travel? It would probably go some way as to explaining how we have Genestealers, and how come they seem confined to Space Hulks. They keep getting Genestealer-infested because they flicker into realspace and bump into the dormant Tyranid fleets.

Space Hulks themselves are probably also serious (if not rare) problems, even in 30k. Can you imagine all the freighters that got lost when humanity was just getting the hang of warp travel and with no astronomicon to guide them? For all the mystery behind what the Tyranids were when they finally showed up, Space Hulks and Genestealers seemed to be unusually well-established facts. I don't think Genestealer infestations would be too implausible in a 30k setting.

[daboarder]

combined with the fact that Tyranids don't really have any FTL travel of their own (I barely dignify Narvahls as canon; I refuse to accept FTL-enabling Narvahls as canon because physics called and said no), they're probably already in the galaxy,

Tyranids have FTL, there are no instances of tyranid fleets taking forever to get anywhere, they move as fast (or faster, RE: Krakren) than imperial fleets. Therefore they must have some means of FTL (And I agree the narvhal is stupid, not the least because that entire BS paragraph was just a "nids are **** at space and can take decades to get from one planet in a solar system to another, therefore they lose)

[Chaoschrist]

I'm actually amused by the notion that in the 30k verse, Orks would/could have superior tech, lol.

[Mr.Pickelz]

An Ork Warboss also came close to killing the Emperor, A unified Ork army would be utterly terrifying for the Great Crusade to see.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Ullanor Orks would be interesting to hear more about, as at the time it was a mighty Ork Empire that IIRC required all the Legions and the Emperor himself to defeat I'd also like to hear more of the PrimOrk who almost matched the Emperor in single combat.

[daboarder]

The Ullanor Orks would be interesting to hear more about, as at the time it was a mighty Ork Empire that IIRC required all the Legions and the Emperor himself to defeat I'd also like to hear more of the PrimOrk who almost matched the Emperor in single combat.

It would be nice to see the 40k LOW correspond to the 30k ones, I mean Ghaz has to be close to the primarchs and the PrimOrk right? and hell Eldrad his old bad self was talking to fulgrim at one point.

As an aside I'm really hoping that when FW does the Daemon Primarch variants they make the rules 40k compatible.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh they will be.

30k doesn't really have any rules 40k doesn't :)

[Anggul]

I would want xenos that there are no models for. Make a significant xenos empire that they had to fight really hard against. Preferably not humanoid.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think the problem with that is that FW themselves have said much of the Heresy was Mankind roflstomping far smaller and less equipped forces by comparison. The Megarachnids were consigned to a single world, the Laer easily crushed by the Emperor's Children, and the Interex still a relatively small force that ultimately didn't last long in open war against the Imperium.

[daboarder]

Oh they will be.

30k doesn't really have any rules 40k doesn't :)

I meant more (40k approved heres a stamp may be taken as a LOW by CSM/CD armies)

[Mr Mystery]

Is that all that necessary though?

I mean I'd imagine they'd have them for the Daemon Primarchs like, but is it necessary?

[daboarder]

yes, I would like to use them in tournaments and the like and not have the 30k vs 40k (which by FW own admission are not designed for compatible play) conversation.

[Arkhan Land]

I want a Hrud Army

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I would want xenos that there are no models for. Make a significant xenos empire that they had to fight really hard against. Preferably not humanoid.

reading this made me cheer, glad one person has some taste. Humanoid aliens in SF always look like absolute s**t.

[DWest]

I would really like to see them straight-up adopt the xenos codexes into the 30k world, and co-opt Tau, Tyranids, and Necrons into 30k. The reason being, is that we can basically break the world of 40k down into a few groupings of factions, from an "us vs them" standpoint:

"Us"
Imperial Guard - Space Marines - Inquisition - Mechanicum

"Them"
Orks - Eldar - Tau - Tyranids - Necrons

"Chaos"
Chaos

This is heavily simplifying things, but it's based mainly on what I've seen of player tastes (are you more likely to collect Ultramarines *and* Space Wolves, or are you more likely to collect Ultramarines and, say, Imperial Guard?). So you end up with 10 "design families" as it were. Now 30k is effectively its own game, interacting with 40k only for the basic rules, and they could probably reprint those in the next red book if they really felt like it. But at the same time, the models have a larger, but narrow, crossover: Space Marines, Mechanicum (currently as Knights, but there will probably be enough to do a full army soon), and to a small extent Chaos can use 30k models to flesh out their 40k army. Imperial Guard are getting some help soon, as is Inquisition (in the form of Sisters of Silence/SOB, and we'll probably see some Knights Errant and proto-Inquisition soon), and even Chaos knows they'll get a boon later on, but that leaves Xenos out in the cold.

So, FW could just ignore Xenos in the 30k world. I think as much as it's been talked about by fans, they know this isn't going to work well. They generate new species and completely new army lists, but this also wouldn't work well, I think, because it would mean taking the time to build up an entirely new design aesthetic and enough units to fill an army list from scratch (for comparison, it's taken 3 books to get the Mechanicum to where you can kinda-sorta play them on their own, and they've been fairly integral to the process). Or the third option, the one I'd like to see, is an appendix for playing the other 40k codexes in 30k. It would be fairly simple to justify from a lore standpoint: Maybe the megarachnid were a tendril of a Hive Fleet that landed early and got stranded. Maybe the Interex were actually Tau, and the Eldar re-seeded them later after they'd been wiped out. Maybe the Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors put one too many basements on a fortification and woke up a Tomb World. To me the third option sounds the best because it addresses two problems at once; how to provide more opposition for 30k armies, and also how to share the boons of the 30k design aesthetic with the other 40k armies. Because that seems to be the biggest complaint with 30k right now, is Space Marines are getting a bunch of shiny new toys and nobody else is.

[Arkhan Land]

I think some of these races would be fairly easy to modify.
Hopfully at some point GW delivers a cultist/stealer army/rules that could tackle both those at once.
Eldar of the RT era are basically Craftworld Raiding Parties/Raiders until 2nd edition so basically minus Wraith-anything/Aspects plus raider style jump/winged troops and maybe plus some sort of unique predecessor flyer/tank-s
Orks would minus some tech, plus more psykers, and My personal favorite missing element Digganobs! Perhaps some of the brood brother level cultist models +Tattooooos lots of em.
Im willing to accept the Tau were off minding their own buisness, and that necrons tombs were encountered similar to as they are now

[40kGamer]

I believe Tau are only around 6k years old so they wouldn't be on the table for 30k. (Which probably makes a lot of people happy.)

[DWest]

I believe Tau are only around 6k years old so they wouldn't be on the table for 30k. (Which probably makes a lot of people happy.)
The Tau have only really been active on a galactic scale for the past millennium; however, it is also heavily implied (as close to outright stated as anything in 40k background gets) that someone, most likely the Eldar, deliberately accelerated their evolution and culture.

It would be stretching the lore a bit to say they were established in 30k and then resurrected by the Eldar to have a place in 40k, but it's my opinion that stretching the lore in a way that requires less overall effort to provide an army in 30 and also provides a benefit in new models and rules for 40k would be preferable to making something up from scratch. Granted, as I don't work for Forgeworld, my opinion means nil, but one can always hope.

[Pietia]

Tau wouldn't be useful in a 30K context, but their codex easily could - the Great Crusade encountered many advanced cultures and species, some of them probably could be represented well enough using the Tau codex (or the Eldar codex in some cases).

[Blight-Company]

You know the old Squats players are hoping and praying for another day in the sun. ;)

Tau were still in stick huts according to the fluff. I agree with the denizens of Murder but one can't deny the fluff about the Hrud infestations and hints about advanced lizard men.

[Thornblood]

Squats are mentioned in one of the Alpha Legion short stores- there's a Demiurg mining colony/asteroid that gets targeted by the Legion.

The thing is, whilst I would love weird and esoteric alien races, the whole Horus Heresy is about civil war and the birth of chaos. That very game of thrones style very slowly introducing the more fantastical elements back into the narrative. Its just that story. All the alien races are just background, not protagonists.

40k however is supposed to be the countdown to mega-war, the end times, the final hour and a minute before everything goes cataclysmic. Hence Tyranids are invading en-masse, the Necrons have awoken, orks have spread to everywhere, eldar (of various forms) can pop up anywhere across the galaxy and chaos is, well very established.

If it was financially viable, I would love to see gw incude more xenos races. But I think FW is doing really well with the Heresy seres because its such a focused civil war.

I would like to see the cabal get in on the 30k action. Eldrad Ulthran and whatever other alien species join on that council.

[King Fluff]

Tau wouldn't be useful in a 30K context, but their codex easily could - the Great Crusade encountered many advanced cultures and species, some of them probably could be represented well enough using the Tau codex (or the Eldar codex in some cases).

If anyone is interested I've spent the last two years developing a ruleset for the following 30k alien races;

Demiurg
Keylekid
Exodites
Hrud
Megarachnids
Interex
Olamic Quietude
Laer
Scions of the Storm
Nephilim
Jorgall
Interex
Nurthene

If you search for King Fluff on Facebook you'll be able to see the rules sheets and my WIP armies. I'm currently working on a murder board for Armies on Parade.

[Vance Murphy]

Before the time of the fall, there were personal pockets of the warp, private domains of those who would become the Dark Eldar. These were the private estates of the rich and powerful, the secret labs of "scientists" and inventors, lairs of cults , hidden cities and such. Once the fall occured the Dark Eldar retreated to these dimensional pockets and began an all out war for survival. Struggling to adapt to living in the warp and the constant attacks by it's denizens these small fiefdom would be constantly fighting each other for resources and territories. Though there would be treasure troves of Eldar tech like falcons,but by and large, they would be favouring the smaller more agile and raider vehicles that would be in the first stages of evolving into what they are today. Life would be a constant dog fight in a realm of nightmares where only the most ruthless and savage creature survives. Constant fighting and adaptation in a realm where time was distorted plus the Dark Eldar penchant for experimentation would eventually create a species as distant from their craftworld cousins genetically as the primate is from us.

On the other hand, the Craftworld were designed to be long term exploration and trade vessels, basically small self sufficient worlds in of themselves, though much smaller than their present forms so they would have much more of the falcons and more powerful weapons of war than today, since much of that tech has been lost in the years since the fall. They would probably have more Titans and such and machines of war we have never seen before. After the fall, you would probably have the craftworld Eldar fleeing lost in their craftworld with a core of experienced vetrans who are used to be in space and away from the homeworlds for long periods of time, trying to aid refugees who are lost and have never been away from home before . The craftworld would be filled far, far past normal capacity and it would be a constant struggle on overtaxed resources with people who had no idea how to survive outside the comforts of their lost homes and family.

[Mr Mystery]

Good point about the Pointy Ears.


I do wonder what their archaeotech equivalents would be .

If memory serves, the Aspects predate the fall? I think.

[daboarder]

Good point about the Pointy Ears.


I do wonder what their archaeotech equivalents would be .

If memory serves, the Aspects predate the fall? I think.

Aspects are from the "war in heaven" background as far as I am aware (unless that's changed)

That being said, it would be cool to see some more FW aspects, I still like the shadow spectres (no idea if their rules are good at the moment or not)

[Mr Mystery]

Aspects are from the "war in heaven" background as far as I am aware (unless that's changed)

That being said, it would be cool to see some more FW aspects, I still like the shadow spectres (no idea if their rules are good at the moment or not)

Yup, pretty much what I thought. Though still confused as to whether The War in Heaven was Necrons or Slaanesh or possibly both (wibbly wobbly wirpy warpy and all!).

[Arkhan Land]

Based off a combo of current cannon Imperial/Eldar and the old RT cannon heres what I can gather about pre-fall eldar and human interactions:

RT LORE:
- Eldar trading parties are present and often allowed to trade within the boundaries of an early un-unified humanity
- Hostile human interactions are predominately with Eldar Radiers/Pirates

Eldar LORE:
-Pre-M31 Buildup of societal excess etc.
-M31 the fall/ rise of craftworld eldar/separation of "Dark" Eldar from The "Eldar Empires"
-The way the history of the Path section is worded in several codices it is mentioned about how the path and its important is a constant point of debate between young and old one that this was a major issue to the Eldar who exacerbated the fall. The importance of the Path became a greater issue after the fall.

Imperial Lore
-Age of strife humanity is lost in space ended by the Great Crusade,
We can assume this is the beginning of major hostilities with humanity possibly the first time the Eldar actively "Went to War" with the humans, ie Aspects/Wraith-things, this is also mentioned in Eldar lore as the "Rise of Humankind"

What does this mean for the Eldar in 30k?

A Rarity of Aspects
Emphasis on Raiders
More and more powerful psykers (pre-fall glory)
and as people have pointed out a meshing of Eldar/Dark Eldar Tactics/Weapons/Style

that said im totally prepped for a FW retcon and if they do it right, wouldnt be too upset by some cool new things


also forgot to add:
In Doom of My. It specifically notes the creation of the shadow spectres post fall and points out that "An Eldar Corsair is more akin to the Eldar before the fall than those who now live upon the craftworlds"

[daboarder]

Yup, pretty much what I thought. Though still confused as to whether The War in Heaven was Necrons or Slaanesh or possibly both (wibbly wobbly wirpy warpy and all!).

the best details of it I've found are actually in the liber chaotica book.

Its basically like the greek myths, the war ranges from the creation of the eldar gods as weapons of war (that became sentient) to the fall itself. But that was when the fall was LONG before the great crusade....

[Vance Murphy]

Eldar aspects did not happen until after the fall. It talks about that in the codexes several times.
The War in Heaven was with the Necrons AFTER they deposed their Gods and was an Eldar race race rising into prominence and a Necron race beaten and battered having been tricked by the Deceiver into their present metal shells. Even so it was massive APOCALYPSE battles and it heralded the rise of the Eldar and probably the biggest war ever seen in this galaxy except for the Necrons destroying their own Gods.

The Harequins tell the legend of Fall and the Dance that Never Ends which is the fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slanesh, and the Dance that Never Ends is their God, Cegorach fighting Slanesh, rescuing the remains of the War God, Khaine and deftly departing into the webway to appear and reapear from the warp to bedevil Slanesh at will.

The first of the Aspects were created during the fall from Asurmen with their shrines on now long lost Craft Worlds, who "in the time of the fall led his people into exile,abandoning his world to the horrors of the warp"

Asurman was the first of the Phoenix Lords, and founded the shrine of Ashur upon the barren world they settled on and from their the first aspect warriors sprung. So Asur was an old hero of the Eldar who clearly predates the fall, but the aspects did not come along until after the fall.
Page 54 Eldar Codex 5h edition for more details.

After the fall the Eldar whos Gods died (except for Khaine, Cegorah and the Goddess of the Harvest who is supposedly kept captive by Nurgle, took solace in their ancient legend particularily THE WAR IN HEAVEN and created aspect warriors and such based on their myths and in this way embraced their past legends to save their future creating the path of the warrior (Khaine) from them.

Incidentally, the Legends of the War in Heaven does include the Eldar myths of creation and the rise of their Gods and heros, but the Necron event itself was a battle between them and the Eldar that made the Horus Hersey look like a minor border skirmish and is also a living history of the Eldar from the time they became space farers until the Necron War with the Necron War, being their greatest and proudest moment in Legend.

[Scion_of_Terra]

The Fall happened immediately before the Great Crusade began; it was the shockwave from Slaanesh's creation that ended the warp storms which had isolated Terra and its colonies from each other for millennia (of course, those storms were generated in the first place by the Eldar squicking Slaanesh into existence). Given that the Crusade lasted a good few centuries, there would be time for all factions of the Eldar to be present - remnants of the Eldar Empire, fighting as corsairs, Dark Eldar striking from within the webway, and eventually the first aspect warriors from the Craftworlds.

So basically you could field any Eldar army. That being said, I would think that there would be fewer Aspect Warriors in any given army, but a greater variety, as all of the Asuryan are just starting out and none have been killed off yet. Dark Eldar society would also probably be closer to simple corsairs; I don't see the Haemonculi or the Wych cults being major players yet, and fluff-wise the aristos and the solar cults would still dominate Commorragh, so DE armies would be primarily Kabalites. Finally, most SCs would not be around; Vect would barely be a gang-leader, Urien Rakarth would still be fairly normal-looking, and Eldrad would still be Toughness 3 as his body hasn't turned to crystal yet.

[Arkhan Land]

I guess this is a question for any one who could have gleaned this information from a BL Book (I have not read any of the eldar ones, want to at some point but just havent) but previous to the fall/aspects were there not Eldar on the greater warrior path who worshipped specific deities through specific cults? (sometimes trained directly by the deities in myth) although its pretty clearly stated that the Eldar that did not stray from the path were definetly in the minority. So could a fall/post-fall transitioning army still have for example, Khaine "Cultists"

As much as this thread is about 30k xenos its kind of made me wonder if after this 30k era forgeworld would ever consider moving onto a 10k (?) Eldar versus Necron War. Which would be AWESOME
The Gods Themselves... The "Horrific Baroque" technology of the Ancient Eldar... The transitioning Necrons... wouldt be real cool

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I guess this is a question for any one who could have gleaned this information from a BL Book (I have not read any of the eldar ones, want to at some point but just havent) but previous to the fall/aspects were there not Eldar on the greater warrior path who worshipped specific deities through specific cults? (sometimes trained directly by the deities in myth) although its pretty clearly stated that the Eldar that did not stray from the path were definetly in the minority. So could a fall/post-fall transitioning army still have for example, Khaine "Cultists"

As much as this thread is about 30k xenos its kind of made me wonder if after this 30k era forgeworld would ever consider moving onto a 10k (?) Eldar versus Necron War. Which would be AWESOME
The Gods Themselves... The "Horrific Baroque" technology of the Ancient Eldar... The transitioning Necrons... wouldt be real cool

I always wanted a "war in heaven" Epic scale game with necrontyr, eldar, old ones and enslaver plagues. I doubt GW or FW would ever do anything that awesome sadly.

[Lord Ezekial]

I think it would be cool for them to do a Great Crusade book to show a united Imperium going out to the stars. There could be tons of Xenos that they put in the book, from the small Xenos like the spider death world, to the Huge Ork empires that they had to wipe out. Even Daemon planets and the first contact with them. Eldar could be floating around and maybe even the very first of the Nids splinter fleet.

My brother and I Did a 30k Death Guard versus Nids and it worked out well. He beat me but it was a lot of fun.

[Arkhan Land]

I always wanted a "war in heaven" Epic scale game with necrontyr, eldar, old ones and enslaver plagues. I doubt GW or FW would ever do anything that awesome sadly.

This would be INCREDIBLE, in fact any sort of Epic/BFG releases now would be incredible (im somewhat cautiously hopeful of this news about renewed copyright) given the level of production GW could do now on vessels for Epic/BFG in new plastics it could be a rather incredible affair. BFG components to the 30k stuff would be ridiculously cool

sigh

[Mr Mystery]

For me, it's a bit of a shame that Black Library stopped putting out the art books akin to Xenos Biologis and The Loathesome Ratmen.

I would kill for a Remembrancer's Journal - showing illustrations of the various now ex-species their fleet clobbered.

You know....I think that's totally worth a request to Black Library. Series of journals - could even seed them with secrets not apparent until you read them all?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

This would be INCREDIBLE, in fact any sort of Epic/BFG releases now would be incredible (im somewhat cautiously hopeful of this news about renewed copyright) given the level of production GW could do now on vessels for Epic/BFG in new plastics it could be a rather incredible affair. BFG components to the 30k stuff would be ridiculously cool

sigh

I wouldnt get your hopes up, if they do anything it's probably more likely a videogame - and they have done space hulk and blood bowl video-games in the past.

Yeah, a modern Epic game would be amazing and set in a different period like that it would differentiate it from 40k. Epic's problem now is that it's too similar to normal 40k now, especially with super heavys and the like. If they actually set it in a different time period and made it live up to it's name with thousands of infantry and the like it would be amazing. As for 6mm infantry - it was impressive what they could do back in the early-mid 90's when you think about it, so with current tech it could produce some mindblowing results. I think a lot of people miss BFG too. I know I do.

[daboarder]

For me, it's a bit of a shame that Black Library stopped putting out the art books akin to Xenos Biologis and The Loathesome Ratmen.

I would kill for a Remembrancer's Journal - showing illustrations of the various now ex-species their fleet clobbered.

You know....I think that's totally worth a request to Black Library. Series of journals - could even seed them with secrets not apparent until you read them all?

They still put them out every so often, Emperors Might and Will were good books. I always make a point of grabbing the art books when I can (I'm a real sucker for 40k and Blizz artwork)

[Lord Mayhem]

At a bare minimum the original Space Marine game (in parallel with Adeptus Titanicus) would provide a base line for Ork and Eldar forces, since the original setting was during the Horus Heresy