Sportsmanship and 'rules of engagement' in group battles?

[JohnCS]

Question on what are reasonable rules of order and conduct during large multiplayer battles.

My son and I went to one of the GW store 'tyranid attack' battles today with about 20 players on a 4x18 table. We're relatively new to 40k (though experienced in other systems) with about 2 months & 4 prior battles under the belt.

During the opposing team phase we might have 3-4 players simultaneously shooting at out units. A few times while we were resolving one shooting attack we'd have a couple other players roll all their shooting and interupt with "I shot you and you loose 3 models and need to roll an armour save on the fourth" or similar. I insisted they wait and re-roll all their shooting once we finished with the previous player. One person got fairly bent out of shape, asked why I questioned their integrity, etc...

So were we out of line? We went there to have fun and learn the rules further. Having someone just tell you 'you units dead' doesn't seem give the battle immersion factor that equals fun to us, and we sure don't learn anything about the opposing units from our perspective. Granted its a timed turn and we're not quick (lots of crib-note checking), but we had to wait for tracking down opposing players in our shooting phase also (if nothing else cause we didn't know their unit stats). Grand prize was a poster they didn't even have in yet, so it wasn't exactly a high-stakes game.

We're not upset about it, but sure would like to know if we violated generally expected guidelines for expediency. Are there any 'unwritten' procedural rules for these types of games? We don't have the Apocalypse rules, though they didn't apply to this game anyway.

[Faultie]

If you wanted to watch your opponent roll his to-hit and to-wound dice, I don't see the problem.
If he got bent out of shape, maybe you should be suspicious about the rolls.

[DarkLink]

You've got a right to know your opponent is not cheating. As complicated as such large games can get, it's always best to make sure your opponent knows that you're rolling dice, and what those rolls are for. Your opponent should do the same for you, as well.

There's a good reason why such large multiplayer games aren't the norm. They tend to get very confusing.

[scadugenga]

I've noticed that most large GW store multiplayer games are lousy with poor sportsmanship. The worse are the apoc type games where cheating seems to be beyond rampant.

You had every right to request that they wait and reroll the dice so you can observe the roll.

I have a group of friends who routinely choose to play "team" battles instead of a series of 1-on-1 games, so good etiquette is fully observed.

IE: If you have more than one player targeting a single opposing player (regardless of whether or not it's the same unit) courtesy should be applied and you wait until one person's shooting/assault/whatever is resolved before proceeding with your own.

If I was in your position, I would've done the same thing. However, if they got bent out of shape about it. I'd point out that, while this is a game about sci-fi plastic toys, it does require a certain level of maturity. And then point out if they can't seem to grasp the concept of maturity, perhaps they should try playing a clix game instead.

But then again, I'm becoming more irascible in my ripening years. ;)

[SombreBrotherhood]

Besides, any given unit of yours has to be shot by any given opposing unit one at a time. So your opponents need to decide who's going to do their shooting first. For what it may (or may not) be worth, I would have chipped in on your side, regardless if I was your ally or not.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Tarrandus]

I guess I'm in a minority, but personally I think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

I play a lot of team games, usually 2v2 or 3v3, so is not quite the same as quite a large battle, but this is pretty much the norm how we play. If I'm finishing up something with another unit, and then an opponent informs me that a unit took wounds from another units shooting, I'm not going to doubt him. Having the player you are shooting at watching every roll just slows things down too much in team matches.

You may thing somone got bent out of shape for nothing, but he seems pretty justified to me. If I was shooting and had some pretty good rolls and then whoever I shot at made me re-roll, I wouldn't be happy, especially since there is a potential for a shady player to conveniently 'forget' to watch whenever you make a good roll.

Hopefully as you grow more comfortable with the system and different units stats team games will get easier :)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Tarrandus]

I don't have my rulebook handy so you may have to enlighten me about page 15.

I'm not sure where rules come into this, but I do seem to rember a rule about 'having fun.' If you don't think team games are fun, don't play them. If you do think getting to game with a whole bunch of people at once is fun, you might have to be a little looser with the rules and just trust that people don't cheat. Seems to work for me :)

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[plasticaddict]

When we do large multiplayer battels (apoc., etc.) we try to make sure our opponents are aware of what is happening, as waiting for each unit to resolve shooting indvidually can be overly time consuming it is common to have a lot of firing goinog on. If I am shooting at your unit and you can't watch me and two other people roll at the same time we will have one of your teammates watch the rolls in your stead. It helps speed things up and keeps the honest people honest. If that'snot acceptable I'll wait for you to watch my rolls. I don't think you are out of line however consider your opponent may just have been trying to speed up the game and not had the manners to do it correctly. And there are people in my gaming group I play with regularly I would allow to roll unsupervised and tell me the result, there are others that will have to wait for me to watch, some of them are "bad at math" and need a second pair of eyes on the dice.

[Commissar Lewis]

That's what me and my friends do in our large apoc games, if the player is occupied a team mate watches the rolls. Though none of us cheat outright - we're all adults, and tbh cheating at a miniatures game is kinda weak.

But yeah, TC, that one player sounded dodgy at best, outright cheating at worst. Usually if they get bent out of shape about something, good sign they were doing something they shouldn't have.

[entendre_entendre]

i was at one of the tyranid battles today as well, but the situation was a little more hectic. there were 12+ non-nid/ork players vs. ~4 nid/ork players. we ended up having some people help with the moving but when it was time to shoot at them it got a little crazy. one guy was trying to resolve casualties for ~5500 pts of nids by himself while the other nid/ork players tried to keep tabs on their own armies. we tried to let the owner roll respective dice for saves, etc. but when their turn is getting really long and you've auto-killed things it's just tempting to remove things immediately. sometimes we did, but usually it was just guants, we waited for him to be ready before we did anything bigger (with the exception of the twin turbo laser reaver titan which auto-killed everything it touched).

did we do the right thing as a group? should each person do their shooting one at a time or for the sake of time and < 45 minute turns do what's mentioned in the OP (although perhaps more politely)?

[Morgrim]

Semi-related question: how do turn orders work for multiplayer battles? Assuming for simplicity that a friend and I are teaming up for a smallish battle against a single other player, tzeentch and slaanesh demons vs some other army. Do we need to go 'tzneetch shoots, slaanesh shoots' or can we both hit differing targets at once as long as it is clearly declared? And if we go one then the other, does it have to be the same way around? (Are we allowed to do Tzeentch shooting first, because they're better at shooting and slaanesh may be able to mop up, and then go the other way around for the assault phase for the same reasons?)

[therealjohnny5]

The rules quite clearly state that "you must complete firring from one unit before moving on to another"

In your situation you are playing with a group of trusted Friends? If so, thats fine for you, but for the thread poster this was not the case and certain conventions when playing with strangers need to be observed.

agreed 100%. It's different when you're not playing with your friends. especially in large format games. i've never participated in a store large battle for the same reason. if i were i would bring like one super heavy or a titan or something and that's it. keep it simple. In my experience watching them they are poorly ordered chaos...but then that's not my thing. i like team games but order is even more important in larger games to keep things fair and straight.

to the OP you where totally in the right my man. i'm sorry it was a negative experience for you and your son, when i'm sure you were looking for something more light and educational. Unfortunately some people in the hobby get really competitive or are just jerks. Most of us aren't though and like helping out newbies, bc we all were on once...:D

[DarkLink]

I don't have my rulebook handy so you may have to enlighten me about page 15.

I'm not sure where rules come into this, but I do seem to rember a rule about 'having fun.' If you don't think team games are fun, don't play them. If you do think getting to game with a whole bunch of people at once is fun, you might have to be a little looser with the rules and just trust that people don't cheat. Seems to work for me :)

Also remember that the OP is a fairly new player. When we get more experience and get to know the other players we're facing, then this might not be a big deal anymore.

[tjkopena]

@Morgrim: We play a lot of team and multiplayer games in our local club. For team games, we never worry about the order. We treat each side like one big army, so the side can choose which units are activating in what order in each phase, just like you would for a normal game. I don't think there's much, if anything, to gain by doing anything more complicated.

[Lerra]

Semi-related question: how do turn orders work for multiplayer battles?

We usually play "My team goes, your team goes". We also houserule that you are treated as separate armies that are fighting together, so your ICs can't join your teammate's squads, and you can't put 15 genestealers in your teammate's land raider. No chaos daemons hitching a ride in a Valkyrie. That cuts down on some of the broken combinations.

I've also seen it played in a 2v2 where you have only one person go at a time, alternating players on each team, so there are 4 player turns per round. This is a little slower but allows for things like switching alliances, etc. One problem with this is that there are four assault phases per round, so assault becomes more brutal.

[Lord Inquisitor]

What me and my friends do is we always make sure that someone on your team watches the rolls. As long as one of my teammates saw what was rolled I just go with it. So my rule is that either I or one of my teammates has to watch you roll for it to be valid.

[lobster-overlord]

The rules quite clearly state that "you must complete firring from one unit before moving on to another"



And this is very important, as removal of models closest to the second player during the first player's attack could render the unit out of range to the second player, and thus not a valid target. As all shooting is not simultaneous, separate units must be targeted if players are resolving their own phases, but if they want to shoot the same target as another player, they must wait and determine first who has priority.

[JohnCS]

As the OP I want to thank everyone for their responses, gave me alot to consider. Don't get me wrong, we did have fun and I didn't push it to an issue - just wanted verify that I wasn't the one out of line so I wouldn't repeat the error next time if so. Overall the entire process was a bit overwhelming and frantic though.

I certainly think we'll wait to do any more until we're fairly comfortable with the rules and stats, then I'd likely be more comfortable letting them roll on their own. It really wasn't a trust thing for us since we can't tell an Eldar from a Tau yet and have to rely on people to be honest with unit stats anyway, just trying to keep up and understand what was happening.

I really liked the suggestions to just go with one or a few big units. That would have been alot easier than our many squads of little models, and left more time for visiting and gawking.

As far as how this game went, there wasn't so much teams as two groups - those you could shoot and those you couldn't. There was an attempt to select team captains but I don't think anyone stepped up to the plate. Opposing forces set up in the middle of the table w/ 12-15 players, then tyranids w/ 6-8 players moved in from the table edge. Durring each side's turn everyone moved/fired/assaulted at their own pace. Middle of I think turn three Chaos players got a free round of shooting at everyone at both sides, which I heard afterwards generated a few complaints. (since Chaos was at the other end of the tables from us we didn't even understand what was going on at the time). Certainly not very organized overall, but honestly with 20+ people I don't think one could achieve any organization if they tried so probably a reasonable approach. Game ran 4 hours for 3 turns.

[BuFFo]

So were we out of line?

Of course you weren't.

What you did was perfectly fine.

Next time, tell your opponents to shoot one at a time, and if that takes up too much time, the only alternative to keep the game fair is to have each opponent shoot one unit at a time, and you roll your armor saves once they are all done shooting.